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Groundhog Day Revisited

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We have been here before, we will be here again. Intensely frustrating, annoying... but we don?t seem to be able to get it right, do we? We hear that the football and spirit is superb... well, not from where I am standing it isn?t. It?s the players, it?s the manager, it?s the club. The problem is we will have to endure this because the options are just not acceptable.

Now, if I appear to be going against the logic of so many of you, I?m not, but hang in there for a minute. Everyone wants Moyes to go. Well, nearly everyone... but somehow I can?t see it happening until the club is sold. As far as Kenwright is concerned, Moyes is one of the club's greatest assets and he is unlikely to get anyone better without having to find millions from somewhere. So he isn?t going to be sacked.

Moyes himself is much more likely to throw in the towel and say enough is enough. Then we would be in a pickle.

The only solution to the problem without making it worse would appear to be selling the club and any new owner changing the management at board and player levels at the same time. Except of course Mr 24/7 can't find enough hours in the day for a new BUYER not investor.

The seeds of our Groundhog Day were laid by the Chairman when he gave in to an excessive wage demand to an over-rated manager. Over rated because his tactical ability is limited and has been overcome by passion, fitness and astute purchases. Both Moyes and Kenwright knew of the imbalances of the team in the summer and did nothing but hope that under-achieving players would perform. They didn?t.

I said before that the difference with our players ability and the level of players in the top four teams is matched on an infrequent basis because they are operating at 95% of their ability to compete. To compete at the same level the top four only have to operate to 80% of theirs. They can afford an off-day. We don?t get it right and we are stuffed.

That we don?t get it right is down to Moyes; he takes the credit when it pays off so he must carry the can, with the players, when it doesn?t. His ability to adapt to situations is alarmingly poor. However, the situation is exacerbated by the poor decisions made by the Chairman and the Board of Directors. (Donovan; a striker; no new blood with a good pedigree / class / known ability.)

So Groundhog Day comes around again. The chairman goes into hiding, the manager is getting stoned, the team are toothless, and the easiest solution is to fire the manager. He should go, but we may have to hang in there until the club changes hands...
Christine Foster, Australia     Posted 27/09/2010 at 13:24:19

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David O'Keefe
1   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:06:55

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I agree with every single word, the rot is starting to set in.
Tony J Williams
2   Posted 27/09/2010 at 16:56:55

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Groundhog day with the posts on here too, Kenright is the Devil, Moyes is tactically inept etc etc.

"The seeds of our Groundhog Day were laid by the Chairman when he gave in to an excessive wage demand to an over-rated manager" How do you know that was the reason for the stalling of the contract? Could it have been, oh I don't know, arguing over where he wanted to take us and what kind of guarrantee for money for players he could give.

Usual story on here, everyone's guesses suddently become Gospel because they believe in it so much.

I would love to know how a "tactically inept" manager could go on an unbeaten run last season that included a defeat of Chelski, Man City and Man United within a few weeks?

I would also love to know how this "coward" of a manager has gotten Everton into Europe more times than any other manager in their watch?

It sounds like a am blowing air up his arse, I'm not, he is flawed, extremely so when it comes to substitutions but I am getting bored with people believing that "Everyone wants Moyes to go. Well, nearly everyone", as if the ones who want him to stay and prove himself are in the minority because this site has the majority of Moyes haters on here. Even the editor hates him and that sets the tone for the posts, as he usually has a little pop at anyone not calling him every bad name under the sun.

We all know he is not the best manager, far from it... but he is going nowhere and when he does pack in, I wouldn't blame him. Perversely I can't wait to see us try and get Allardyce, Megson or the like to get back to our wonderful Dogs of War days.
James I'Anson
3   Posted 27/09/2010 at 16:54:55

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The reason Bill hasn't found his billionaire is because he's already got one.
His name is Phillip Green.
Phillip Green wants his retail developement and wherever that may be, Everton will help him get it.
This could even be a long term goal of his and as long as we are ticking over in mediocrity he'll be happy to wait.
He's now an advisor to the new government (presumably on how to avoid paying tax) and the next Destination Kirby will be passed without any problems.
I'm sure he's the person Knowsley council are trying to protect and keep anonymous because the public just wouldn't understand. We'll soon see.

That's my theory anyway.
David O'Keefe
4   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:07:44

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Tony if he's flawed as you admit, why take it so badly when these flaws are pointed out?
David Thomas
5   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:09:52

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Tony J Williams,

Excellent post.

" Everyone wants Moyes to go. Well, nearly everyone... " As Tony says maybe the majority of people on this site want Moyes to leave the club, but i would put my mortgage on if you went and asked the match going evertonian the same question then the people who wish Moyes to stay would have the significant majority.
David O'Keefe
6   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:19:16

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Probably right David, but the fans are becoming increasingly sceptical regarding his abilities.
Tony J Williams
7   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:19:12

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David, I am not taking it badly at all. I agree with many of them but it's in my nature to argue against points I don't believe are correct (even when sometimes it turns out I am completely wrong).

I try to stop it but I can't; hence why I am finding myself in constant trouble with the editor.

Obviously there is no inflection in my writing but I am not some rapid key pounder, I just express what I want to. That's the whole idea of a forum anyway.

You and other may see me as the oft used "apologist" and to be honest I don't care, I know I am not but I will stand up and question someone who calls our manager "tactically inept". I say what I say then go about my day (usually grumbling at the Redshites in my team).

I very hardly feel angry when posting in response to posts, I just get angry with the players and the manager when they don't perform as well as we know they can.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
8   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:17:59

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Tony J: I only have a pop when my cage is rattled... and you have just done just that ? but definitely NOT for the purpose you claim.

I'm fascinated to think that I'm (supposedly) a "Moyes hater" and I'm leading the debate and dictating the tone of the posts... I surely fucked up allowing yours through then, didn't I???

If you could open your eyes a little and try counting the number posts that are (quite independently of me and my prompting) citing and discussing a wide range of issues and concerns that have culminated in Everton ? under David Moyes ? being BOTTOM OF THE FUCKING LEAGUE!!!! ? then perhaps you might get a little closer to some sense of reality.

As it is, I've been standing well back, in case you obviously hadn't noticed.

The only issue I have is when people like you accuse me of idiotic and impossible things. Why is it that these people always seem to be ... Moyes apologists? Does it somehow help you to believe that I am responsible for Everton being bottom of the league?

David Price
9   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:24:21

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Tony J, well said mate, we know Moyes isn't perfect and makes mistakes but he's our Manager and as Dave Thomas implies we are mostly glad about it too.
The team will pull this round.
Tony J Williams
10   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:27:21

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*Rabid keypounder - Damn should stop typing angry.....oops
Anthony Fox
11   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:25:18

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Who are we getting to invest and who is going to be the manager Christine?? I think Moyes is still learning his trade as a manager but I also think he has done a great job considering the money and situation with the club. If we look at where we are (in terms of players and style of football) to where we were before moyes came to the club then I think kit shows he has progressed this club a lot.

Its obvious we do need investment but it needs to be the right kind.. Look across the park for example.. If my season ticket is going to go up up £200 - £300, which it will if we get investment, then I want to make sure the investors have the clubs interest at heart.. Be careful what you wish for.
David O'Keefe
12   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:27:19

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Tony defending Moyes is a defensible position, but the debate re Moyes and Kenwright is polarised.

I have no time for the Kenwright apologists because the don't have a defensible position. They can't even defend his running of the club, but it doesn't stop them trying.

Those are my positions Tony, I don't regard you as a Moyes apologist as you have taken a nuanced position, but you have over reacted. A period of time away from the internet may be in order as too much time on the web affects your health.
David Price
13   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:29:08

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Mike, you made the first move with your match report on the Fulham game by 5.30 on Saturday. Ripping the team to bits on what wasn't a bad performance without some luck in front of goal.
Tony J Williams
14   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:35:26

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or maybe I should just use obscenities in my posts David, as apparantly that means what you are typing is correct. Just like the fantastic FACT, used by the dopes of the park.

Reality Michael is that it is the start of a season and we are bottom after six games, not that we are "relegation candidates" and that it's all over etc etc.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
15   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:36:08

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Here's another one... David Price: "ripping the team to bits" ? all I did was describe ? somewhat dispassionately for me ? what had been for me a pretty awful game of football. You may have thought the performance was good, but I thought it was poor. However, I gave credit to Distin and Coleman, and I commented (as has everyone with a pair of eyes) on the poor finishing of one Aiyegbeni Yakubu.

I did not "rip the team to bits". I provided a largley descriptive record of my main impression of the game, and posted it straight after the game (as I always do). If you have a problem with that, let me know, and tell me how you'd like us to operate the website.

David O'Keefe
16   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:44:32

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Sorry Tony, but you have lost me
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
17   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:55:47

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Tony J: On this thread, you wrote that I set the tone for the posts, as I usually have a little pop at anyone not calling Moyes every bad name under the sun.

Please prove that or retract it.
David Price
18   Posted 27/09/2010 at 17:56:32

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Mike, just didn't think your report reflected how we played. It's like giving marks out of ten, people have different ideas what rates a 7 or 4 or is ok or poor.
I thought after Newcastle, we showed a big improvement and again, like a few games this season, could have easily won the game.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
19   Posted 27/09/2010 at 18:09:04

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David, what you said was I had "ripped the team to bits".

That's not true, is it?
Marc Williams
20   Posted 27/09/2010 at 18:09:49

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Christine Foster writes :

" the manager is getting stoned"

I know you meant something else but you might be closer to the truth than you think. It might explain some of those baffling line up's... "Hey man,let's play Cahill on the wing" &
"Wow Distin is cosmic today, totally awesome".

It would also explain why Yak has the munchies !

Pass the puff Davey lad, it'll help us all chill with our league position.
Mike Gwyer
21   Posted 27/09/2010 at 18:02:16

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It's unfortunate that fellow blues are verbally attacking each other when in reality there is not much anyone of us can do regarding Moyes, Kenwright and selected shite players (we could have a mutual stay behind, post the RS match, and boo or retort to our hearts content - it seemed to work wonders for Steve G post the Sunderland game.)

If Moyes goes, and that for me is a big ask, then the next guy steps in and on we go. Kenwright will not ask us who we want as a new boss - but there definately seems to be a lot of unemployed managers, both in the UK and Europe, doing fuckall.

Mark Laverty
22   Posted 27/09/2010 at 18:40:03

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I'm not a "Moyes hater" but he is seriously pissing me off at present. I don't think any other manager in the league could put up with Distin as their centre back, worst player in a blue shirt in a long time for me. If Heitinga is good enough for Holland in that spot then surely he's good enough for Everton? Simple ? Fellaini back in front of the back four with Johnny beside Jags, Distin never to be seen again...
Mike Gwyer
23   Posted 27/09/2010 at 18:41:57

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Mark (post 23).

I was amongst Fulham fans on Saturday (in the very un-segregated away end) and to a man they raved about Distin - cleaning up long balls and keeping Dempsey quite (thankfully Fulham were a striker or two short).

Personally, I thought Distin did OK but regading Heitinga, Moyes likes his CB's to be about 7 foot tall and, when on the left side, left footed so that's that.

Marc Williams
24   Posted 27/09/2010 at 18:54:05

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Mike 24# They must all be 'Stoned' aswell. They'd certainly sober up quick if they watched him every week !
Neil Steele
25   Posted 27/09/2010 at 19:25:02

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Christine, what can I say...I like your style. A woman who truly understands football, and sees it the way I do!! If you are attractive and single (well, you don't even have to be single..just willing), then inbox me at
Dennis Stevens
26   Posted 27/09/2010 at 19:46:38

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"Moyes himself is much more likely to throw in the towel and say enough is enough. Then we would be in a pickle."

Christine, I agree with the first sentence, Moyes always strikes me as a quite honourable man & if he feels he's reached the end of the line in terms of what he can do for the club then I doubt he would just hang on for the cash. I suspect he'd try & agree an acceptable settlement & be swiftly on his way. However, I can't agree with the next sentence. "In a pickle"? Surely we already are! I would prefer Moyes to turn things 'round & perhaps reconsider his position next summer, but if & when he leaves I don't believe we should despair of finding an adequate replacement.

Changes are required at Board level, although whether Kenwright sells up or not may not be the most significant or necessary change. I don't think that changes at Board & manager level necessarily have to be synchronised in any way & it may even be destabilising for the club if they are. Undoubtedly it is the changes or lack of them at Board level that will have the greatest influence on Everton's long-term future, rather than any change of manager.
David Price
27   Posted 27/09/2010 at 20:49:31

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Mike, you in effect gave a 4 to my 7, ripped to bits was an expression to exaggerate an unfair call of the display.
Not sure how you desribed the games versus Blackburn and Newcastle where they did deserve the shredding treatment.
Here's hoping we nail Birmingham and have us all smiling in unison.
Michael Kenrick
28   Posted 27/09/2010 at 21:16:52

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Dave, I didn't give out any marks, so this 4/7 stuff is irrelevant. You accuse me of a blatant lie (as in "ripped the team to bits") when I provided an essentially accurate description of the game I had watched. You call it now "unfair"? How was it unfair. Be specific.

You have not come up with one single example of how I "ripped the team to bits". Calling it "an expression to exaggerate" something is just a copout for spouting a lie, can you at least admit that?
Ray Roche
29   Posted 27/09/2010 at 22:25:45

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Neil Steele @

Next time you try to pull Christine try a couple of "Ding Dongs", "I say" and "Heeelllooooo's" whilst trying to look like a young Leslie Philips. Worked for me.....though not with Christine!
Rob Hollis
30   Posted 27/09/2010 at 22:44:22

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Anthony @ 11

'Moyes is still learning his trade.' He must be the highest paid and longest serving apprentice on the fucking planet and beyond.

We are not asking him to operate on the human brain, just balance a football team and have more than one plan per game.

Bloody Hell!
Christine Foster
31   Posted 28/09/2010 at 00:06:06

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My post was in answer to those calling for Moyes's head and my belief that it won't happen ? not that it shouldn't.

Tony Williams, why is it that one can only see the positive and never the negative? As I said in the post, when it's going right, he takes the plaudits ? it's only reasonable to say, when he gets it wrong (that's tactics and performance), he cops the bricks?

A couple of years ago, I posted an article "Be careful what you wish for" and, contrary to the view that I am a "Moyes-hater", I am not, but I do believe the man has reached the top of his ability given the resources at his disposal.

The problem is that, if Moyes does go, what then? Any significant name would want significant money to build a team around his view of the world... and that takes money, which we don't have.

Anyone who comes in to try to work with what we have is unlikely to fair better than Moyes unless they are a great tactician but they would still have to sell to buy.

Moyes needs to change to improve or go somewhere different. At the moment, doing the same thing produces the same results. Playing round pegs in square holes can only ever work once.

The problem is that it's not just Moyes ? it's our chairman. The contrived ball of wool that was Kirkby is unravelling and the manager, team and club needs to move on. Fresh blood at the top?

Christine Foster
32   Posted 28/09/2010 at 00:25:23

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Oh and Neil & Ray, thanks for the compliments, I, like many women love my team and my football. You can't grow up in Scotland road without it becoming part of your life and to me its a very important part.
Alas, I am married to another Evertonian, so I am afraid my I would never play away from home!
David Price
33   Posted 28/09/2010 at 19:48:43

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Mike, I am not accusing you of lying, an exaggeration is used to emphasise a statement, mouth as big as the Mersey Tunnel, backside as big as the side of a house etc, it's totally inaccurate but acts as a paraphrase.

I thought you were wrong. You described a poor performance, I didn't think it was. You analysed the match facts accurately, just the overall assessment was different to mine.

You are not a liar and if there was any inference on my side then I apologise.

Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
34   Posted 28/09/2010 at 20:14:07

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Thanks, Mike... I think.

It's actually the other way around. I was calling what you had said (about what I wrote) a "lie" because there was no way in hell that it was true.

I'm glad to discuss different opinions on a game, but let's keep these so-called exaggerations out of it and stick with what people actually write. Thanks.

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