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Step 10: Admitting what you're doing is wrong

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I really will not spend any more money on Everton for the time being, not until I see it as a product trying to be the best. There could be many reasons why I don't feel the way I used to about Everton, but it doesn't bother me the way it once did because, in the end, Everton weren't playing for a Championship this season.

Putting so much time and worrying so much about a team trying at best to finish 4th is pointless to me now. If I was a Chelsea supporter, I would be engaged, the games would mean something. But right now, in Everton's situation, what does it really matter if you finish 8th or 17th? The team gets a bit more money but that doesn't really matter when it comes to Everton. As we've seen, no money is spent in the Summer... whether we finish 4th, 5th, 6th or 8th. And it definitely has no impact on the individual supporter.

Honestly, I just don't really care any more. I don't see why I should let an Everton team that is run by people who do not have the ability to have them contending, ruin my day. I've said it before on other posts but it's truly how I feel now. Everton FC is an inferior product. Separate out the emotion and it is insane to continue to spend time, money and emotions on an inferior product.

But it's not just Everton, it's the entire league to be honest. The top 4 has been dominant for years, it's boring now. So Liverpool has dropped out of it only to be replaced by Spurs one odd year, just as we did.

But you're fooling yourselves if you don't think the new ruling class will be United, Chelsea, Arsenal and City. The rest will be battling for 5th, 6th, and hoping that maybe Arsenal have a poor run one season. But that doesn't interest me any further.

I wish the supporters would for once vote with their wallets and stay away from the matches. Our teams have no chance, why watch?
David Barks,     Posted 28/09/2010 at

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Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
1   Posted 28/09/2010 at 03:32:25

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I should apologise to David Barks for pulling this off another thread and posting it here. I don't often do this but there was something about his post that struck a nerve... and his discussion with Rob on the other thread centered around the addiction analogy... more than just an analogy, perhaps?


I recall David posting quite frequently last season, and being pretty forceful in his views. This season... not so much ? just 13 posts from him. But that's normal: there aren't many who can sustain the habit year-in, year-out ? but I'm in danger here of conflating internet support with the real thing!


It's difficult times like this that cause some of us to question our fanatical commitment of the cause... while that will be castigated by others as the ultimate weakness. And while some have spoken strongly about the incredible disparity between the obscene earnings of these prima donnas we watch each week, and the paltry disposable income we... er... dispose of while doing it... you do have to wonder... Why?

Good post, David!

Charlie Percival
2   Posted 28/09/2010 at 04:41:32

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A lot of good points which I feel at times... But, like the poster of this post (as much as he likes to want to do so...), you can never abandon the team that you love and have loved all your life. END OF!
Garry Martin
3   Posted 28/09/2010 at 06:31:19

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Bit sharp !........ you're probably having a "bad day at the office" moment.
Chill out & take a step back.
I like you got really dt
Alan Clarke
4   Posted 28/09/2010 at 07:54:14

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If this chairman and manager are still here at the end of the season and look like they will be here for the foreseeable future after that, I will not be renewing my season ticket. I won't abandon the club but I'm not giving them my guaranteed money for the season.

What is apparent this season is that even if Moyes does keep us up, which is higly likely, we're still heading nowhere. The club is drifting along aimlessly like a ship without a rudder.

I think what annoys me more than the actual management set up is this cancer that's spread amongst the supporters. This attitude that we should just be grateful for Moyes and Kenwright. It's this cancer that is really responsible for our situation because we, the fans, don't demand better anymore.
Stephen Larkin
5   Posted 28/09/2010 at 08:35:49

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This post really resonates with me. This year I didn,t renew the season tickets, for many of the reasons mentioned in this post. I havn,t abandoned Everton totally but only been to 2 games not bought any merchandise. I don,t think we can compete and what is the point if we can,t compete . This does not look like changing for the forseeable future. So for now football is an occasional pastime my haert just isn,t in it anymore and I have followed Everton through some dark times since 69/70. Nothing but mediocre will do seems to be the current motto.
Ray Robinson
6   Posted 28/09/2010 at 09:01:24

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This certainly resonates with me - the difference is that I can't kick the habit. I struggle to reconcile growing disillusionment with PL football with a belief that somehow my being there matters. I struggle also to reconcile how withdrawing financial support can help a team wrestling with a paltry income - although I realise that income from Joe Public represents a mere drop in the ocean compared with TV and sponsorship revenue.

I guess I'm just hopelessly addicted. I feel an interesting debate with my mate who's a devoted Bolton fan. Now if you think our prospects are mediocre ........ !
Tony J Williams
7   Posted 28/09/2010 at 09:00:52

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Alan, I'm not entirely sure that it is a case of people being grateful for Kenwrong and Moyes, it just some people have the feeling of resignation towards it. I can't see Moyes going unless he walks away, I've oft said I wouldn't blame him and Kenwright will only sell when he gets what he wants and only then. Obviously his "I want" list is unachievable in the sensible charts.

So unfortunately it means we are stuck with them for the foreseeable and so whilst they are here I will endeavour to support them... well Moyes anyway.

He has raised our expectations and unfortunately we are now beginning to sound like Newcastle fans about "wor massive club" (which we haven't been for a long time) and God forbid those dickheads across the park.

The less I say about "Blue Bill" the best.
Alan Clarke
8   Posted 28/09/2010 at 09:29:54

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Moyes didn't raise my expectations Tony. You frequent these pages as much as I do and for the majority of Moyes' time in charge he has come in for a lot of stick because of the awful style of football we have played. That is not raising expectations.

Apart from very young blues, we are all of an age where we remember Everton winning something. That is where the expectation comes from. We owe Moyes nothing. We have been patient enough with him. Your gratitude towards the man is part exactly what I'm talking about. The fans just don't seem to give a shit anymore.
Dave Lynch
9   Posted 28/09/2010 at 09:16:54

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I posted on here 2 or so years ago about why i was not renewing my season ticket.
The gist of it being centred around Sky tv and the changing kick off times etc....
What David states as EFC being a "product" is indicative of how football has evolved since Sky re-invented the game, because that's what they have done, they have re-packaged the whole shabang and turned it into a money fest of frankenstein proportions. Fixtures are manipulated, kick off times changed and sycophantic ramblings about how good the top 4 are make me sick.
Anyway like i said, i havn't renewed my season ticket since that post 2 or so years ago and i havn't looked back. I pick and choose which games i attend and can actually run my family life around me, instead of fixtures which have been changed on a whim by the bastards at Sky.
Try it, you will be pleasantly surprised.
Eugene Ruane
10   Posted 28/09/2010 at 09:33:58

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I agree and completely understand David but at the moment am in the same position as Ray Robinson who says..

"This certainly resonates with me - the difference is that I can't kick the habit".

This is the position I (and I suspect thousands of others) find themselves in.

I just like...erm...going.

Actually 'like' ISN'T the right word, as that would suggest some judgement was being used.

I just......go, force of habit

It's like we're all goldfish.

Any Saturday 4.50pm: "Forty nicker to watch THAT shite!? They can fuck right off"

Four days later, mate phones: "Got the Fulham tickets but we're in with them..."

Me: "Great, well done"

WELL DONE!!??

What am I, fucking nuts!?
Sam Hoare
11   Posted 28/09/2010 at 10:03:08

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Understand the sentiment but surely just as in life its easy to be a good friend when the sun is shining. When all is good then of course everyone wants a piece and no doubt if Everton won the league and the cup then suddenly Everton fans would spring out all over the place.

The real test of true friendship and fanship is how you react when things are bad. And things are bad right now, no mistake.

But the sign of a true fan is one who shouts louder and cheers more fervently, who is there to support the team when they are at the bottom and need the support the most. So for me, now is when we are needed the most to try and be positive despite our misgivings.

Mike McLean
12   Posted 28/09/2010 at 10:02:38

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The vast majority of clubs in what I still choose to call the football league have never had even the slimmest chance of winning anything major, yet each club boasts its own cadre of fanatical support. Too much damaging psychological stuff could be written about this!

Perhaps for those who give up, part of the issue is age ... with increasing years comes greater cynicism, or at least loss of innocence.

Perhaps it is an unwilling realization of the fact that the Club itself seems to have more or less given up any real hope of achieving stuff.

And perhaps it is that the Club speaks of itself more or less purely in business terms - with any halfwit being able to respond, "If that's your business, the product stinks."

When admission was easily affordable for even the worst off, who cared? It was a couple of hours out of the house. With ticket prices as they are, however, ... !

I banned myself from going quite a few months ago for a completely different reason, but I recognise David's cri de coeur.

Peter Webster
13   Posted 28/09/2010 at 10:21:57

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To be honest, I'd still support Everton if they were in the Beezer Homes league. What can I say? They're in me blood. You can choose your friends but you can't choose your family. Doesn't make it any less depressing though.
Anthony Hughes
14   Posted 28/09/2010 at 10:13:44

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Agreed Sam, we've all been through the ringer with Everton down the years and we'll all continue to support them, we can't help it. But there comes a point when you think when are they going to give us something back? It just seems that this useless man running the club doesn't give a fuck about the fans and is just happy to sit at the helm of a Premiership club to massage his ego.
We are in a slow decline as a club, masked only by mid to upper table finishes which placate enough fans to keep us ticking over.
The future of the club is decidely dodgy.
Tony J Williams
15   Posted 28/09/2010 at 10:27:56

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Alan, my expectation for when Moyes first arived those many years ago was relegation and to regroup and get back into the Premier League. Now my expectation is to be challenging for Europe and possibly a Cup. I would think that is is a pretty big difference in my expectation level.

Gone are the days of sweeping all other teams aside with panache. we are an ordinary outfit that when clicks we play well and we are skint. Our main signing this season is a League two striker on a free, that says it all to me.

That's why I suggested last week that I don't expect us to win anything, as my expectations are lower now than they were two seasons ago but still massively higher than hoping we don't get relegated.
Sam Hoare
16   Posted 28/09/2010 at 11:05:10

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Anthony, I just can't believe that almost everyone at Everton is trying their best to do well for us and for themselves. Just like at most clubs. They don't want to be bottom.

Personally i think the future at least is bright. I still believe we will finish in the top half and have been mostly unlucky so far. Hopefully this horrendous start will force Bill to sell some furniture so we can buy a striker and right winger to turn all our good possesion and territory into goals and points.

David S Shaw
17   Posted 28/09/2010 at 11:10:52

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I agree with you David Barks.

I just don't understand why it's took you 10 years to get onto it though?
Phil Martin
18   Posted 28/09/2010 at 12:04:19

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Total agree with the OP. This season I've not been to a single game or purchased an item of merchandise. For that I'm not proud to admit it. However why should I pay good money to watch a team going through the motions. We (and the players) all know we'll be one of 6th,7th, or 8th come May. We may aswell just hand out the prizes now.

Why should I buy a shirt I dont particularly like, which will deppreciate in value by 90% in less than 12 months time?

Why should I spend hard earned money paying off Billy's loans, to pay off older loans, to pay his mates?

Like someone said above. It doesn't matter what happens to Everton. Cup final or not, 4th or 16th. We'll have nothing to spend in the summer. Just another mouthful or BS to swallow.
Charles King
19   Posted 28/09/2010 at 11:39:05

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Trouble is any rationalisation of football ends with you questioning your sanity, perhaps 2 maybe 3 games in a season you enjoy, the rest, a mixture of boredom and despair.,
Supporters need hope, and at the moment it's hopeless.

I walked away from it in the years leading up to the Wimbledon relegation game ignored football altogether, felt great actually.

My wife thought it was brilliant, on Wednesday of that week I came home told her to pack the suitcases because the next day we were off to Malaga.
Even living 100 miles away from Goodison was'nt far enough away for me.
Of course at the hotel every fucker was a toffee or wanted us to win, falling off the wagon does'nt start to cover it.
The moral is if it's in your blood, your fucked.
Tom Hughes
20   Posted 28/09/2010 at 10:52:33

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Personally, I think the anti-Moyes stance is completely misplaced, and more than slightly dangerous.

Misplaced in that it misses the long-standing main causes of our club's condition, and dangerous because to lose him would in my opinion remove the only thing that has kept this ship afloat....... and yes, pushed us incrementally forward each year (despite our current league placing)

I'm also in my mid 40's and have seen enough "real success" and "quality" footy to be able to measure that of recent years.

Yes, things have to change because the club has at best been treading water for long enough, but surely we all knew this already. Moyes' efforts at keeping us "best of the rest" on an absolute shoestring have papered over the cracks ever since he arrived, but the fact remains that despite the improvements we only ever need a few players to be injured, or to under-perform for us to drop like a stone. (At present we are absolutely toothless upfront and are paying dearly for it, last year we had several key players missing at the beginning of the season). That, I believe has more to do with the continual financial constraints he is under than the decisions he has made. That is not to say that I don't accept that he has made many mistakes, and that some of the footy has been dire. However, despite what some have said on recent threads, that has not always been the case at all. His average league placing during his tenure despite his tiny outlay should mean he is still well in credit...... and quite frankly I have seen Everton sides play far worse football, and with no prospect of getting anywhere near the top half of the table (nevermind Europe). Moyes, and Moyes alone has affected that change in expectation, but he surely shouldn't be hung for that!

Everyone is perfectly entitled to withdraw their support. My feelings are that while I can afford to, I can't stop going! Good, bad or indifferent Everton are Everton, end of. Sucker? Supporter? Probably a bit of both. However, in the short term I can't see us getting any better on or off the field without our presence. One of the reasons Johnson left was because he felt our presence and our discontent, not our absence. If you wish to voice your displeasure there is only one place to do it IMO. I remember getting a leaflet off disgruntled blues back in the early 80's, declaring that "40,000 stay away blues can't be wrong", well guess what, they were very wrong! IMO, Moyes has been behind everything that has been good about our club in the past 8yrs (and there has been a lot), and far less of what has been bad..... perhaps the would-be assassins need to adjust their sights before they shoot the wrong fella!
Mike McLean
21   Posted 28/09/2010 at 12:08:26

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Dave Wilson ? Michael Kenrick has the patience of a saint. My guess is that he publishes as many of the posts that come in as he reasonably can, given the variable standard of spelling, grammar, and "industrial" language.

Anyone who has read Richard Dodd's posts could not possibly believe this site is sculpted in an anti establishment fashion.

Are you especially surprised that Everton sell out their entire allocation of tickets for away games? Anything between 1500 and 5,000 seats will go because there are many, especially young, people who would feel as though they were traitors were they to miss a single match.

And what are we to understand from this? That everything in the garden is especially well fertilised and bursting with blooms of various hue? It is what it is. A number of people buy away tickets and that's it.

I spend Saturday afternoons etc doing other things because after 40 odd years of watching mainly crap, I couldn't convince myself I wanted to share a space with people who insult Pakistani officials or players whose features don't resemble a bag of spanners ... e.g. "Ladyboy". Call me old fashioned if you will.

Your basic problem is that you don't wqant anyone to criticize your sacred cow - the wonder that is Everton / Moyes / Kenwright. My sympathy. But this is a big boys' forum where you have to take it on the chin.
David S Shaw
22   Posted 28/09/2010 at 12:13:03

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Hmm, I didn't read this post as an attack on Moyes, but an attack on Kenwright or rather how capitalism has destroyed football and Kenwright has been unable to keep up with this.
Kev Lacey
23   Posted 28/09/2010 at 12:31:35

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Our football club is bigger than me, you or any other including Bill Kenwright, David Moyes, Mikel Arteta or Tony Hibbert.

Am I pissed off with things currently... yes, but as an Evertonian I'd support the team with the same passion whether we were winning the Champions League every season or battling to break into the top four of the Conference North.

You know why... because I love my club and everything it stands for, has achieved, and will do in the future and that's not something that you switch on and off. If we beat them across the park in two weeks I'm sure the passion will back again for everyone, that's football and it's a fickle thing; always has been and always will.

Daniel Johnson
24   Posted 28/09/2010 at 12:33:08

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I'm a fan I wear my colours with Pride but there is a growing realisation for me that this Club will NEVER challenge in my life time.

What can we seriously hope for this year? What about next year?

As the years go by I feel my love for this club just fading. I guess maybe I'm the kind of fan Everton can do without but why give so much to get nothing in return.

I get, grief, misery, anger and frustration. Some days I'm throughly depressed just thinking about football.

I'm at a low point as for me because after a few seasons of optimisim I now see us bottom of the league with a Div 2 striker leading our forward line.

Now i see Kenwright brings out the buyer moans again to deflect criticism of him and Moyes.

How did we get to this?

To be honest I just dont bloody well care about Everton anymore.

Plus given my disgust and lack of excitement to the World Cup this year maybe I'm just fed up with football.
David Thomas
25   Posted 28/09/2010 at 13:01:29

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Anyone can be a fan when things are going well, but the sign of a "true fan" is whether they stick by the club through the hard times, and anyone who has supported everton for a long time will be able to tell you there has been a lot harder times than what is going on now.
Tony J Williams
26   Posted 28/09/2010 at 13:41:45

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God David don't use the "true fan" or "proper Evertonian" moniker, you will start World War III.

That only works when you have a go at the apologistas, as we are affectively called now, and say that we are the cause of all our clubs problems and only "true Evertonians" would rebel/protest/cause harm (on one post).
Chris Sillett
27   Posted 28/09/2010 at 13:24:18

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I just think its one of those things in life, the older you get the more cynical and less excited you become about certain things.
David Thomas
28   Posted 28/09/2010 at 13:54:07

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Tony,

Thanks for the warning.
Tony J Williams
29   Posted 28/09/2010 at 13:55:24

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Too true Chris, I have had my frothing at the mouth angry days with Everton but now as I am the wrong side of 30 I have accepted that shouting and swearing at a football club will do me no favours and with this realisation I have become a calmer (but more sarcastic) person.
James Marshall
30   Posted 28/09/2010 at 14:18:52

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I'm with Tony, as I'm now closer to 40 than 30, I too have mellowed in the way I follow Everton. I'm way more philosophical about the whole shebang these days and rarely get overly animated/scream like a mentalist as I once did.

Being bottom has washed over me completely and I actually find it quite funny/a challenge to get out of.

Getting hyped up & upset over football is really not worth the effort. You just have to let it all go and enjoy the moments of glory, however fleeting they may be,
Dave Lynch
31   Posted 28/09/2010 at 14:33:12

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James Marshall. How I would love a fleeting moment of glory under Moyes and Kenwright.
Wayne Berson
32   Posted 28/09/2010 at 14:55:01

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"I wish the supporters would for once vote with their wallets and stay away from the matches. Our teams have no chance, why watch?"

Because I've already invested £450 in a season ticket for this season, that's why.

I trust that now you have decided not to invest your money into supporting your team, that you will no longer be investing your time into posting on Everton related sites either?
Ray Robinson
33   Posted 28/09/2010 at 14:47:34

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So you think it gets easier as you get older? Well if it means that I can talk to people rationally 1 hour after an Everton defeat instead of sulking in my bedroom until Monday morning which I did when I was a teenager, then you're probably right.

If it means putting the wife and kids first in your life, then yes you're probably right.

But I'm not sure you ever lose the passion. It may get subdued but it's still there waiting to break out. I'm 57 by the way. The tragedy is that with the PL structured the way it is, we all may have a long wait.

Bring on salary capping, I say. If it means, so called "stars" defecting abroad, so be it - at least we'll have a level playing field at home.

In summary, I'm more disillusioned with football in general than with Everton.
Rob Hollis
34   Posted 28/09/2010 at 14:59:08

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Wayne

That's a bit harsh. I have a season ticket as well but can't be critical.

If we all take a step back and THINK then we realise that the Sky (Football any old day) contract, forming of the EPL and Champions (You don't have to be a Champion to be in it) League were formed with total disregard for the supporter. They were formed for worldwide TV.

If you happened to be doing well at the time then the CL money gave you a head start and so it has gone on. We don't watch the same game as we did, even the balls are designed to make it easier to score (except for the one we play with).

We don't support clubs with same ethos any more. Football used to be a family of teams that competed and trickled down a fair share of the money to the lower leagues. What the EPL said was 'Fuck You' to supporters and other clubs outside of the elite. I can't help going to the match but I know that beating Utd and Chelsea at home is probably as good as its going to get now. My heart demands more but my head tells me otherwise.

I still believe we can win the league someday but it is a damn site harder for any club outside of the CL earners and City.

Our addiction might go on but you can't argue with the logic of the post.
Alex Kociuba
35   Posted 28/09/2010 at 16:02:38

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We've sold almost all the 2,800 allocation for the away game to Birmingham, and today we received more seats (another 500 I have been told).

Although I agree with the original poster that fans should vote with their feet/wallets, it's also nice to see the determination and passion of the fans support too. At Goodison you often see the away section 2/3 empty and it's embarrassing.. I'm glad we're not one of those teams.
Larry Boner
36   Posted 28/09/2010 at 16:56:29

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I see the Everton supporters of which I am one) and the situation at Everton FC similar to one of my all time favourite films "On The Waterfront.
David Moyes is Terry Malloy, Bill Kenwright, Charley Malloy and the board as the gangster Johnny Friendly and his cronies.

We are the dockers, looking on, but doing nothing. Malloy (Moyes) gives his final condemnation of his brother, Charley (Kenwright) (ironically in the back of a taxi) "It was you Charley, I could have been a contender, instead of a bum, which is what I am"
The support that Terry Malloy craved that night when he threw the title fight, it just resonates with me, Moyes has got to that contender position several times, but when he just needed that faith in him, the team and the club, the Charley Malloys and Johnny Friendlys of this world let him down, but most of all the dockers (supporters) of this world went down with him.
There is something of a happy ending in the film with the dockers fighting back against Friendly, showing support for Malloy.
Will there be a happy ending on our waterfront, or will the Friendlys triumph ?
Karl Masters
37   Posted 28/09/2010 at 17:29:00

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Tom Hughes, no 20, spot on.

David Barks, OP, correct me if I wrong, but don't you live in the United States?

Two things spring to mind here. Firstly, being so far away you are likely to have less people, if any, ' in your face' discussing English football and making you keep the passion burning. Secondly, unless you own a private jet and have a lot of disposable income I would n't expect to see you at any Everton game more than once a year, so what's the difference anyway?
Andy Crooks
38   Posted 28/09/2010 at 17:56:23

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David, I see your point. However I only get to a few games a year and count the time between each one. That probably explains why, after a shite expensive trip, I get so angry at what is going on.
David Barks
39   Posted 28/09/2010 at 17:59:36

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Karl,

Let me respond to your post since you chose not to respond to any of the points made, instead opting to try to say I'm a foreign fan who doesn't go anyway. Read my post, I was talking about much more than attending matches. Merchandise, Everton TV subscription, and then the Premier League as a whole, as a product, being tired and no longer interesting.

Now as for me living in the US, you are correct. And no, I do not own a private jet, but didn't realize this was a prerequisite to being able to travel the UK for a couple weeks at a time. There are these things called miles that you can accrue on credit cards that can be used to purchase air line tickets at a discounted rate and sometimes if you have enough, free flight. Now, let's say you have this account that you use for business expenses, quite a few miles can be accrued very highly. On top of that, the option is always there to stay with family instead of in a hotel. This makes the trip even more affordable. But again, the point was much larger than attending matches.
David Price
40   Posted 28/09/2010 at 17:48:53

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Anyone remember March '77? We'd just lost the Cup semi-final replay to Clive Thomas, then one week later, lost the League Cup Final 2nd replay to a 120th minute last kick of the game 2-3 versus Villa.

The following Saturday we had Derby away; on the Friday I spent half an hour convincing my mate to come with me to the game as the team needed us more than ever. It was too easy to give up, so being illogical we got the coach and joined another 200 hardy souls to support Everton.
At half-time we were 2-0 down and an already dodgy idea was fast becoming a nightmare. In the second half, up stepped Duncan McKenzie to "rip Derby to bits" and score twice and win us the game 3-2.
Our small band of brothers then got battered by a few thousands Rams, but it didn't matter, we took it for the team, we supported them when they needed us and we got some sort of reward eventually.

My poor bleeding hearts out there, this is what we do, it's all we know.
COYB..

David Hallwood
41   Posted 28/09/2010 at 18:13:24

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So the ?product? isn?t up to much and you?re disillusioned... simple solution: if the restaurant is shite, go to another one. So become a Man U or Chelsea supporter and when they run out of money become a die-hard Citteh supporter. Change your team every three years, learn to speak Norwegian.

Sorry gents bit I?ve been supporting Everton since I could walk and I?ll stop when the curtains of the crematorium close; but that doesn?t mean that I?m not concerned about the direction EPL is taking and the plight of Everton. Call me a soft bastard if you like or a mug punter but I ain?t a fair-weather supporter, but don?t let me stop you.
Mike McLean
42   Posted 28/09/2010 at 18:28:21

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David, @ 40. I remember the week you mention very well indeed. I also appreciate the point you are making but have to say, we don't have to do it unless we want to. Everton isn't an intelligent organism that understands our altruism towards it. We do what we do because we either want, or because we are conditoned to. Everything else is wind and water.
Alan Noon
43   Posted 28/09/2010 at 19:37:34

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A person that doesn't care and therefore writes a piece on 'not caring'.... doesn't make much sense to me. Although Iost caring years ago but am still posting!
Dennis Stevens
44   Posted 28/09/2010 at 19:31:12

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Even more important might be the idea of not giving any more money to Sky.
Tony McNulty
45   Posted 28/09/2010 at 20:02:35

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Do people take the trouble to post if they no longer care?
Stephen Larkin
46   Posted 28/09/2010 at 19:59:14

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I have become a "fair weater" supporter and not a true blue anymore. Also an enemy of the "apologistas", the post was not aimed at Moyes or Kenwright but was about the state of football and how it is difficult to continue to attend when something you love has become tawdry.
Karl Masters
47   Posted 28/09/2010 at 20:58:42

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David,

I have heard of Air Miles, my friend!

I think it's worth looking at how Clubs generate money and how we as fans contribute to that.

Everton's projected income this year is likely to be close to £100m thanks to another ramp-up in TV money from, ironically in this case with you living in the US ( which I may add does not mean I consider you less of a fan ) , a lucrative new International TV deal.

Of that £100m, around 65% will be TV revenue, gate receipts approximately 20% and the remaining 15% from corporate, merchandise, lotteries, catering deal, Chang deal, kitbag deal etc.

So, sadly, whether or not you buy a Home shirt and the Club makes £20 on it, or whether or not you have Everton TV for £40 a year, won't make much difference. We are an insignificant part of Everton's income unless we are Corporate sponsors, Sky or season ticket holders. It's the same at just about every EPL club.

I happen to share your opinions when it comes to the future of the game in general. I too am bored with the same old Sky 4 and now Man City getting all the headlines. It is tedious. The seasons are all merging into one in my mind. When I was a kid I knew who won all the trophies in all the seasons going back to the start of football, whereas now I struggle to recall who won say the FA Cup in 2005, the League in 2002 or the League Cup in 2007, but I know it's almost certainly Arsenal, Manure or Chelsea and I don't remember how they won them. The Champions League is the same. It's the same old 6 or 7 clubs, they all play each other umpteen times - Barcelona must have played an English team 40 or 50 times now since the start of the decade. The magic has worn off.

So, I wasn't having a pop at you for living in the States ( I envy you really - I have had some superb trips to Miami, NYC, San Fran, LA, San Diego etc in the last few years and love it there ) but I guess what I am saying is that unless you have a season ticket or are Rupert Murdoch, are a shirt sponsor or rent an executive box, our opinions won't get any attention.

You only have to look round Goodison and look at your fellow fans to see our fan base is ageing rapidly . The Street End used to be full of kids and teenagers and you rarely saw many people over 30 in there. Nowadays, there's a plethora of middle aged men reliving their youth along with some teenagers, whilst in the other stands they'll need to fit stairlifts in the upper tiers soon such is the propensity of grey hair! I read somewhere the average age of a spectator at a game in England is 43! It's a timebomb that's ticking, but with admission prices so high who can take their kids regularly? Another sacrifice to the great God, Money!

With all the money coming in ( 4 times waht it was 10 years ago ) there should be enough to build new stands, reduce admission prices etc, but instead it goes to players and parasitic agents. David, your £40 for Everton TV for a year will pay Mikel Arteta's salary for..... 6 minutes. And that's 6 minutes of his life, not the time he spends at work taking corners that don't clear the first man! If he was paid for a 40 hour week, he'd be on almost £2,000 an hour so your £40 would cover 1 minute and 10 seconds.

Disgusting isn't it? An there are others out there getting 3 times what he's on!
Kevin Hudson
48   Posted 29/09/2010 at 00:04:07

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David,

Quite possibly the worst article I've ever read on this site..

Turn your back on the team because it's struggling,you say?

Even a cheese-eating surrender monkey has more backbone than that!

Thus "One Evertonian equals twenty Liverpudlians," obviously doesn't include you then,does it?
David Barks
49   Posted 29/09/2010 at 03:15:08

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Kevin Hudson,

Learn how to comprehend what you read, try reading it again, then post a response. As I wrote, my post wasn't in response to this year, or last year or even the last 10 years. It's in response to the overall picture, and isn't limited to Everton. Not once did I say turn your back on the team because it's struggling.

To spell it out for you, the Premiership is boring, uncompetitive with the exception of 2-3 teams, and mine will not be one of them due to the financial system set up by Sky and the FA. To quote Albert Einstein, Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. This is how I view the premier league while supporting Everton. It's not made for clubs like Everton, but it is made to keep taking the supporters money by making them feel like they're true supporters because they keep going and keep watching despite knowing they're team has no shot to win the Championship, which is supposed to be the goal.

In the last 16 years only 3 clubs have won the league, that's a joke. Continuing to invest in this product if you are not one of those 3 teams is like continuing to vote in North Korea. Now if Everton were bought by some billionaires like City, then it would make complete sense for every Evertonian to feel great again, we'd have a shot to win. But until that happens, becoming disillusioned does not make one a cheese eating surrender monkey, it makes one sane.
Paul Oakes
50   Posted 29/09/2010 at 03:18:17

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And this is why we continue to sit in the slums and continue to be cannon fodder for every other team.

What happened from when we forced Johnson out to when Billy Liar took over?

It hurts to see the club I have loved all my life in such a mess. No, now is the time to show your true support and get Agent Kenwright out and the others on the Board.

How can we do this? We make life so uncomfortable for them they will have zero choice in the matter.

As for Moyes... out and now! 8½ years of crap.

To be under this belief that all that exists is David Moyes and only he could have got us out of the relegation issues is churlish.

Until fans wake up and get the heck out of this malaise that they are under, we are going to continue to suffer, to the point that we will eventually go down. We are not too big to go down. If that should happen with the debts we have. I can't see us surviving the Championship.

The rot starts with the manager and players... if they don't want to play get shut and get more in... but this is Moyes we are talking about here. The signs aren't just bad ? they are rotten. Even the teams that where below us as we boxed above our weight are now outspending us without trying. How long until we go down... because we cannot compete even against the weaker Championship clubs?

Guys, it's time to take action and take it now, before the unthinkable happens... it will only happen once when we are relegated, because that will be the death of our beloved club!
Tony J Williams
51   Posted 29/09/2010 at 09:04:14

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"If they don't want to play get shut and get more in" ? If only it was as simple as that Paul.

Just get down the back of the couch and grab those extra pennies to pay for the £30M striker we need or the £15/20M right winger we DESPERATELY need.

However apparently we need to withdraw our money so our club gets hurt and then Kenwright sells... fecken genius idea that, the club gets more money but the solution to our malaise is to buy better, more expensive players... whilst the revenue from the fans dwindles. Genius!
Alan Clarke
52   Posted 29/09/2010 at 09:07:21

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What really gets me Tony J is that you seem perfectly happy with your lowered expectations. You seem to think you are superior because you've accepted that we're a bit shit but we're not as shit as we used to be. Se we should all stop moaning.

My expectations when Smith was in charge were that we should be winning things. My expectations when Kendall was in charge and Walker before that were that Everton should be winning things. The majority of match going fans were the same hence those managers all got sacked.

Now there's this breed of fan like you Tony who doesn't think that anymore. We should just be happy that we're not as shit as we used to be. Praise God and praise the Moyesiah!
Derek Thomas
53   Posted 29/09/2010 at 08:40:54

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Everyone bring a cushion and sling it on the pitch, like we used to when it was, as it is now, SHITE.
Kevin Hudson
54   Posted 29/09/2010 at 09:54:21

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David Barks.

Let me spell out how your depressing, weak-assed logic translates to the real world:

Put yourself in the place of a Notts Forest, Sheffield Wednesday or Leeds United fan. If all of their supporters decided that, due to their team's failing fortunes, and the overall picture of football favouring barely a handful of clubs, they act out your ill-judged, fickle logic, and "vote with their wallets and stay away from matches" (your quote) then what happens to those clubs ? as entities?

That's right, they go out of existence, and a hundred-plus years of proud tradition are lost forever.

It appears you did some research before producing your glum assessment of the "boring," nature of football, but I ask you: When did you come to the staggering realisation that winners belong to an elite band?

There's only been TEN different English champions in 35 years!

Therefore your malaise is belated, and can only be attributed to a fair-weather nature, sensitive to Everton's sluggish start this term.

I leave you with a truncated quote, submitted by ToffeeWebs' own Editor, attributed to David France, regarding what Evertonianism is ? relative to the Kopites doctrine:

"Loyalty versus entitlement."
Kevin Tully
55   Posted 29/09/2010 at 10:27:53

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Mmmm, what is it we call fans like you David? Ahh, I remember now GLORY HUNTER.

You sound like a typical new age Premier League Sky "Fan".

Chelsea are quite good, and Man Utd are winners as well. Barca play great footy. I support Federer in all the tennis tournaments, Usain Bolt is my favourite 100m runner, I used to love Tiger Woods, bit he is shite now, so I now watch out for Young Rory , if he has a chance or winning of course.

Are all of your friends only rich & successful?
Tony J Williams
56   Posted 29/09/2010 at 10:11:30

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Not at all Alan, I can get as angry as the rest of them. Just because my expectations have been lowered by the influx of money to the elite, and that we will never get a team to compete until something gives, it doesn't mean I am happy with it ? but no ranting and raving on a football forum will have one iota of difference to our team's performance and how skint we are.

I "want" us to win every game handsomely but unfortunately, due to the ordinariness of our team, I no longer "expect" us to anymore.

I remember the days of the 80s when it was a case of wondering how many we would win by; now... not so much. Then, my expectations were high as they could ever be; my expectation with this team, manager and chairman is diluted. I am not happy about it but I refuse to lose sleep over it.

I don't feel superior at all, I have no idea who you are, what you do. You could be a brain surgeon and, for all intents and purposes, I could be an illegal Regal-toking doleite.

I simply will not get into a tizzy about all this anymore, I have had my days of losing it in the 90s and I refuse to feel that way again.

Next thing you will be saying is that it's fans like me that are the reason the club is in the state it is now. In fact, it's not; it's the lack of money, the dodgy substitutions, and that fact that our team is nowhere near as good as we would like to think it is.

I like to think that I have become a calm and centred person (apart from actually at the game)... Maybe you have misconstrued that as me being an "apologist". So be it, I won't lose any sleep over a daft derogatory name on a football forum.
Tom Hughes
57   Posted 29/09/2010 at 13:23:39

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I agree with much of David's article with respect to the apparent increased futility of competing in the EPL. However, the same could've been said to some degree for previous eras. The richer clubs have generally always prospered, the problem now of course is that the system is almost self-perpetuating for those chosen few, and the chance of a well-crafted team from a poorer club breaking into the honours has diminished dramatically.

Does that really mean we should all pack in though? Did the followers of all those smaller clubs pack in when we were called the Mersey millionaires? Personally I feel the precarious and unbalanced nature of the current status quo will eat itself to death at some point soon, and it would be nice to think we might still be in existence to take advantage.

Too many people talk on here with the rhetoric of a John Moores as if their personal expectation levels carry the same weight. If we all packed in simply because we are not getting the "product" we expect (whatever that means), this club and most others would've died out long ago.... indeed even LFC, Man U and Chelsea too. It's simply the nature of the beast.

I think if anyone wishes to protest against any aspect of the club they are more likely to be heard inside the room rather than outside...... but for those to simply say that I'm not going because I expect us to be great because we are Everton is simply delusional. We should aspire to greatness, not expect it.

Chris Jones
58   Posted 29/09/2010 at 19:45:09

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I can sympathise with David's frustration, but we all need to dig deep and back the boys - we've got a derby game in two and a bit weeks that we all need to be fired up for. I've been off this week, so being the sad bastard I am I re-watched all of our games. With the exception of 45 minutes against Newcastle we have played very well. The team does need tweaking (I think Mikel is our best right midfielder) and Moyes must take responsibility BUT the facts are we should have at least another 5 or 7 points.

Everton are always worth hanging on for - they'll always bring you a moment of beauty just when you least expect it, so why jump ship now? I'm not totally convinced by some of what DM is doing at the minute, but I know that when I walked to Craven Cottage on Saturday I had the same buzz in me I've had since I was ten years old and it Rats, Sharpy and Big Nev who gave me hope.

Fuck SKy and fuck the Big Four, we are Everton.
Dave Street
59   Posted 29/09/2010 at 21:55:17

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Chris Jones, Great points, couldn't agree more. They did bring that moment when we scored that 3rd goal against the mancs!

If we beat the RS (This must be as good as an opportunity as we have ever had against them!) it will go a little way to righting the wrongs of the season and could be the catalyst to get us firing again!

Lets also not forget that all of our 'so called rivals' within the 'top 8' have all been dropping plenty of points so all is not lost yet! We can still achieve a European finish!
COYB!!!

Paul Oakes
60   Posted 29/09/2010 at 23:30:02

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Thing is though this hasn't just happened this season or previous seasons. We have gangrene set in. Mainly at board room level.

The board clearly only care about us finishing mid-table, get some money and hope for the same the following year.

No doubt most of us can say confidently that we have spent 10's of thousands of pounds on season tickets through the decades and been offered nothing in return.

What caused this fall from grace? Was it the European ban in the 80s that so royally screwed us over?

Many people over the years have attributed this fall from grace due to this very singular reason. And no doubt it is a contributing reason. However, if we go back over our history, it's littered with a shite boardroom.

We have always had a serious problem at boardroom level, however, since Billy Liar took over, have things changes? You could point to his poaching of David Moyes. However, the fact remains we have not one brass farthing to rub together. Sooner or later the failure at boardroom is going to catch up massively with what we can throw out on to the pitch.

The less money we have, the more likely it is that we are going to end up in a very very serious situation where our debts become so large that we can no longer compete at the top level of football, indeed I seriously doubt we could survive in the Championship.

When things don't go well at Everton, the gates are usually hit the hardest, meaning less revenue to the club. While I sympathize with fans who want to make a stand, this is not the way to go about it.

The way to go about it, is to be in the ground and all chanting in unison that we want the current incumbents on the board out, including Kenwright. While it won't be easy, with enough supporters willing to get this shower out, in the end it will work, history has shown it does work.

Who to get in? Right now I don't particularly care as long as it's someone who can arrest the downward spiral and gangrene we are suffering from. Like gangrene, this rot, if it gets to far, will be the end of us.

I don't know why things aren't in the media about potential buyers, maybe it's that old chestnut of exclusivity? That alone gives Kenwright all the time in the world to concoct a story of potential buyers... it also stops the interested parties from saying anything to the press.

I for one, and maybe I am the only one, will continue to protest at the matches. I will not be satisfied until we have a buyer and some hardware on the pitch capable of delivering what we should be expecting of this great institution.

But to call someone a glory hunter is a bit much. If we aren't in the league to win it, or to win any silverware, then tell me what the point is of just making up the Prem numbers, while our season ticket prices continue to soar? Change is hard on everybody concerned, but you know it's the right thing to do for the safety of the club.

Do nothing and things will get worse and worse... whether you want to acknowledge that fact or not, we soon won't be able to compete at the wrong end of the table.

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