We all have been at some time incredulous at some of David Moyes's team selections and style of play. We have all recognised his favourites and bemoaned his sometime square peg ethos. We all know that we are in much better shape since we have been under Moyes's stewardship, but what I would like to raise is the assistant manager's role.
Kendall & Harvey; Clough & Shreeves... individually ? not great; together ? brilliant. What about Moyes & Round? Round has been mooted for the Boro vacancy; how has he done for us?
I for one wonder sometimes when Moyes has made a cock-up and all and sundry on here can see it yet it seems no-one can tell Moyes ? isn't that his assistant's job.
Would we be happy to see him go? Is there anyone better? What does he do for the team?
Iain Love, Posted 20/10/2010 at 22:53:51
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1 Posted 21/10/2010 at 04:41:26
a) What does Round bring different to the little and large partnership, well we don't actually know, but the next point
b) If it is another view point and not more of the same keep it tight and pinch one...does Moyes listen.
Most of the evidence suggests to me that no he doesn't.
So whats the point in changing.
There is a definition of 'an Intelligent man' that goes along the lines of... 'somebody who agrees with and/or thinks the same as I do'.
The green public transport mob are not going to have much to do with Jeremy Clarkson are they.
2 Posted 21/10/2010 at 05:35:41
If you read Damned United you get a good insight into the Clough - Taylor partnership. But to be fair to Cloughie he did manage OK without Taylor when at Notts Forest after Taylor went to Derby. Taylor never managed successfully - and was more of a scout/coach type.
In the modern game the mangement teams are larger so there is less scope for a highly visible no.2 man. No idea about Round at all. Irvine was well respected as a No.2 and is making a living as a manager, but at 50 is unlikely to break into the big time now. However Irvine was a very skilful player (if somewhat ineffective) in his playing days for Everton - and that alone should give him a different perspective to Moyes. Don't know what Round's playing career amounted to.
3 Posted 21/10/2010 at 08:01:07
I'm not trying to demean Round just wondering how effective he is ?
4 Posted 21/10/2010 at 09:07:38
I am sure that if he was no use he would have been shipped out ala Baz.
5 Posted 21/10/2010 at 09:33:05
Actually I have never. I always have been and am still amazed by what Moyes has achieved at Everton, and in particular I have never questioned team selection as holistically it works. Probably not the correct word... but what I mean by that is, whilst we might get beat now and then and be able to blame it on Osman, over the course of the season we generally over-achieve. Of course I relate to our current, not our past ? which of course counts for jack shit.
6 Posted 21/10/2010 at 10:09:44
7 Posted 21/10/2010 at 12:26:09
I have a lot of respect for Alan Irvine and I think he wasn't adequately replaced. Hearing Irvine interviewed recently for Sheffield Wednesday he really is a top bloke with a strong football oppinion.
We need a foreign coach next to Moyes someone who will get him to fucking open his eyes and engage his bloody brain and possible expose him to something different e.g. that elusive plan B.
Round has come to learn off Moyes whilst bringing nothing to the table. I agree its something that should be looked at.
8 Posted 21/10/2010 at 12:29:22
I don't know Iain's views on Moyes but I get the feeling this is about right, a posting fanning the last dying embers of a once all incompassing inferno.
It's not the first time this has happend and wont be the last. As we now look to get a Euro spot, and chase down 4th many ToffeeWebbers will forget they were calling for his head and will be singing his praises once again... until next season's dodgy start have events repeating themselves.
Of course, I could be completely wrong Iain! And will take it back if you say differently.
9 Posted 21/10/2010 at 13:10:49
That said I think he was a decent number two.
Of Round, I do not see much of what he does, but with that in mind he doesn't seem to do anymore or less than Irvine.
Round is certainly well respected as coach to be honest. His name being linked to the Middlesborough job are testiment to that.
Personally if he left I would like to see a foreign influence on our team. May be a Queiroz-type. (That's 'type' ? not necessarily him!)
10 Posted 21/10/2010 at 13:10:50
Don't think the anti-Moyes boys have gone away at all. A derby win will always please all and sundry but let's take it for what it is, they are one-off games and this was there for the taking. They were and are no better than any bottom 4 club.
The acid test for me will be the Spurs game, a team in form with confidence riding high. Let's see how Davy boy sets us up to play in this one.
11 Posted 21/10/2010 at 13:29:20
I was quiet interested in that Hake Ten Carter who was number 2 at Chelsea, apparently was involved in the Ajax youth setup and he became available just as Irvine was leaving... he would certainly have brought something extra to the table. Round to me looks like a clone; anyone remember the comical finger pointing by him after the United game, just like Moyes...
So I believe the question stands and is valid: how good is Roundy and is he what we need?
12 Posted 21/10/2010 at 14:03:19
There was a long history between Clough and Leeds that meant it was never going to work out ? he did ok at Derby and Forest though.
13 Posted 21/10/2010 at 14:01:06
I don't accept this criticism of Moyes that he is one-dimensional. We have played kick and rush, hoofball and now mostly we are one of the best passing sides in the Premier League. Most of the time Moyes has had only 13 fit players for the last three years without playing the kids. The man has done exceptionally well within the budgetary constraints of the club.
As for Round, he is obviously a top coach. I think often these No 2 guys do not have the personality for the frontman job. They have the knowledge, they are creative and professional but the X Factor is missing. I rate our mangement team as one of the best in the Premier League. Who would I swap Moyes and Round for? A few years ago maybe Wenger and Rice; nobody now.
14 Posted 21/10/2010 at 14:35:00
I'd never herd of him till he rocked up at Goodison.
15 Posted 21/10/2010 at 14:37:10
16 Posted 21/10/2010 at 14:59:05
Maybe we should send him to Anfield.....
17 Posted 21/10/2010 at 16:18:31
'James, I think I'm right in thinking that every club he has been involved in have been relegated'
When were Everton Relegated?
#11 'I was quiet interested in that Hake Ten Carter who was number 2 at Chelsea' ?He worked aa assistant at Chelsea an Barcelona on big bucks, is then manager of many big teams in smallerr european leagues on big bucks... sure he'd take the role as assistant at Everton.
18 Posted 21/10/2010 at 17:48:38
19 Posted 21/10/2010 at 17:56:11
It's fair enough to say that we don't know what goes on at Finch Farm, but we can look at Moyes's characteristics and evaluate his time at Everton. The best aspects carry, from premise to conclusion, Moyes's influence. What impression has Round left since he joined the party?
Gavin above is right.
20 Posted 21/10/2010 at 18:09:17
21 Posted 21/10/2010 at 19:11:03
22 Posted 21/10/2010 at 19:40:07
There have been quite a few No 2s who have really added to a team's fortunes but have never been able to make it as a manager, the best example being Brian Kidd.
But for all those who say we need an attack-minded second in command, I can't argue with that.
Mark (#5) "we generally over-achieve." ? I've always wondered what this meant. To me it's a term used by the media that wishes to downsize any team that has done well as opposed to their top 3/4 of whom they have a modicom of anal status.
"At the end of the day" it's 11 against 11 and at the end of the season the "league doesn't lie" (doesn't Clichey play for the Arse?!?!)
Me, I'd love to get Brian Kidd involved. The best No 2 we haven't got.
23 Posted 21/10/2010 at 23:07:46
During games we see Round sitting impassively in the dug out showing as much emotion as a block of wood. On that headset for all we know he could be listening Top of the Pops. Whatever it is he certainly does not tell Moyes about it. At least not as far as I can see.
The overall impression is that he is a Moyes clone so we should not expect any fresh new alternative advice to flow between them.
24 Posted 21/10/2010 at 23:18:36
25 Posted 22/10/2010 at 00:28:23
You can lead a (attack-minded ) coach to Moyes, but you can't make him think.
And as someone said, how we are set up Vs Spurs may give us some idea that it is the real deal and not just Hobson's Choice forced on him by injuries.
26 Posted 22/10/2010 at 07:47:58
Erm, nope. I still don't think he can take us much further. The Liverpool game aside (a game where we were underdogs and we could cast ourselves as the battlers - which Moyes loves), we've been disastrous all year.
I honestly think he should go at the end of the season and try something new. As for Round, it doesn't matter who is number two at Everton; Moyes is notoriously stubborn and will be defensive or not select players regardless of who sits next to him on the bench.
27 Posted 22/10/2010 at 10:31:22
Except that The Damned United was pretty much entirely fictional, as conceded by the author and insisted upon by Clough's family.
As for the role of the assistant, its extremely hard to ever know what impact they're having. We could do with a 'Do I Not Like That' style documentary where they're all miked up. At least that told us that Phil Neal was little more than a gibbering simpleton capable only of repeating what Graham Taylor said or ridiculous media style soundbites ("its a bold decision boss").
Moyes strikes me as a guy who's assistant is simply there to do what he's told and share some of the workload. The fact that he managed us without one for so long is testament to that. A great assistant would disagree with and contradict his manager (in private) when necessary, giving him an alternative viewpoint. I'll bet there are very few of them around, and even fewer managers who like that type of assistant.
28 Posted 22/10/2010 at 10:36:54
I'm pretty sure we do overachieve consistently on this definition, and the facts are out there and have been linked to on this website before.
29 Posted 22/10/2010 at 10:37:59
30 Posted 22/10/2010 at 14:29:09
31 Posted 22/10/2010 at 14:43:48
I have just reread my original post and can see how some could be mislead into thinking it's about Moyes, happily not most.
32 Posted 22/10/2010 at 15:17:08
Andy, I've asked this question before. Who can Everton improve our overall lot with a clown running the club. I'm not detracting from Moyes' acheivements with that comment. Just accepting that Everton could and should be better at the moment.
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