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Pitiful Display?

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I get on Moyes's back as much as the next person (or twice as much usually), but today's win against Stoke City was a performance that is Moyes's "bread and butter" ? a dogged battling victory against a side of thugs and spoilers.

No team looks good against Stoke ? occasionally, they'll flatline completely and a side will put six or seven past them, but generally they stick to formation, ruffle up the opposition and dig their heels in.

I think sometimes we're forgetting what the real deciding issue is with games like these ? and the issue is coming away with the win regardless of performance.

We have the Tottenhams and the Aston Villas of this world where we should be looking to outplay and outperform them (like we did against Liverpool), but up against the "lesser lights" you do what you can for the three points.

So, for once, I don't agree with the front page story on Toffeeweb. Rather than a "pitiful display", in my opinion it was a "hard earned win".

Three points in the bank.
Lee Kidd, Liverpool     Posted 30/10/2010 at 19:06:53

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Kunal Desai
1   Posted 30/10/2010 at 19:40:21

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What we have to realise is that teams like your Wolves, Stokes and Birminghams are all improving and they have all spent more money on players than Everton have. Gone are the days of Everton battering teams. An ugly win and three points are three points by hook or by crook.<4>4 points off the relegation zone and 4 points off 4th. Interesting times ahead...
Michael Kenrick
2   Posted 30/10/2010 at 19:36:41

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Lee, you say "... a dogged battling victory against a side of thugs and spoilers." I didn't see it as a particularly physical game and Stoke were surely not that dirty. I can't recall any bad fouls that got the crowd's backs up.

What was pitiful for me was the display of football when Everton were in possession of the ball. We simply have no idea how to break down teams, we creep around most of the time playing this god-awful crab-passing sideways shite that gets us nowhere... it's painful.

Thankfully there was one match-hinging moment ? well, two actually ? that determined the result of this game: an excellent goal finished by Yakubu that came as a result of more pacy forward play, and a clearly valid goal by the visitors disallowed. Yes, we can forget it all and celebrate the win... perhaps we should do that as the rest of the display was pitiful from an attacking perspective.

Yes, we defended effectively enough to keep a clean sheet. But I wouldn't say we were really that good at defending, it looked like Keystone Cops at times... but it's the lousy attacking that drives me to despair.

That's why I watch the game ? to see some exciting attacking football. And people wonder why Goodison sounded like a morgue for periods of the first half... I don't think I'm alone in this.
Tom Bowers
3   Posted 30/10/2010 at 19:42:07

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There are no easy wins in the Premiership. Just look at Wolves v City today? A lot of teams know how to hang in tough especially when they have 10 men behind the ball and grab an early goal just like Blackburn today. The thing that matters is having patience and perseverance to keep going right to the end and hoping you can grab the chance to get something out of the game. Stoke give everyone a hard game as they play a strong physical back 4 all basically centre backs.

Take the 3 points and hope you have no injuries. Mission accomplished.

John Brennan
4   Posted 30/10/2010 at 19:41:58

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Didn't see the game today, but grateful for the 3 points.

However, I watched last weeks display against Spurs, and my biggest worry is always the same. Why are we always so vulnerable so soon after we have scored? I jump for joy (obviously) after we score, but almost always go into a kind of mental defensive shell, because I know, I just know, that we will concede shortly afterwards!!!??

Mus'nt harp after we have now achieved 7th but, well, Hmmmm, maybe Stoke were denied a legitimate goal today, but it's been done to us on plenty of occasions (against Birmingham last season, for example). So let's look to squeeze the juice out of the Tangerines and move to a Champions League place (Rodwell and Fellaini back soon).

Wayne Berson
5   Posted 30/10/2010 at 19:57:27

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Lee - I couldn't agree with you more. I think that was a decent win; though far from a perfect performance.

I don't think many teams actually manage to play the kind of football Michael craves for against Stoke, so I'm happy with the 3 points.

If were playing the 'if only this had happened' game, if the ref had not awarded a silly free kick that led up to the Stoke 'goal', then they wouldn't have 'scored'...

Not great football, but job done. 3 points bagged and confidence must be high ahead of Blackpool and Bolton....
Simon Jenkins
6   Posted 30/10/2010 at 19:58:46

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I didn't think it was a pitiful display. It was a hard fought win. Stoke came for a draw. We didn't play particularly well, but pitiful is far too harsh. We've played loads better earlier this season and come away with nothing, so it all evens itself out. I know and you know we are much better than today's display, but three points is the be all and end all at this stage, not 'exciting attacking football', which would be a bonus.

Yak was great, deserved his goal, and has finally grasped the idea of working hard for the team. He deserves all the credit.
Des Farren
7   Posted 30/10/2010 at 20:10:32

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When a team come to GP with no ambition, no wish to attack, no wish to go forward but simply to defend, defend and defend some more with ten players behind the ball, professional players, it is difficult.

But you Michael describe our efforts as pitiful?

Gerry Quinn
8   Posted 30/10/2010 at 20:24:07

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That match was a replica of the defeat against the shite last year - all huff and puff into the side of a parked bus. I don't care how we - or they - played for now, I'm just chuffed we won.......
Michael Kenrick
9   Posted 30/10/2010 at 20:30:50

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I'm sorry to bring this up after a good result but I think it's a weakness we have as a team. It's nothing new, I've been convinced of this for some time and games like this tend to reinforce that feeling... it's Moyes's emphasis on defending that costs us dearly when it comes to attacking. You can see we have no idea when in possession.

At least we have figured out that we should try to keep possession rather than concede with useless hoofballs, but for me, when I'm watching the game, it's all about what we do when we have possession of the ball. If there is no-one to pass to is that because all our players are being tightly marked and unable to move?

Of course if you run off your man, but the team loses possession and suddenly has to defend, you are that much further away from who you should be marking, and likely to incur the wrath of Moyes for committing the heinous defensive crime of "losing shape".

That's the way we play. It's a question of balance though: 1 minute of ecstasy... 80 mins of crap. I know, I know ? I should just accept it and keep quiet! Especially when we win!!!

Chris Matheson
10   Posted 30/10/2010 at 20:41:43

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Today we carried on playing against a tough, well organised side, and we carried on until we scored. So congrats for that.

But generally our attacking play is rubbish. We only seem to have one mode of attack: play the ball out to the wings then cross a high ball in for someone to either head in or knock down. Predictable and easy to play against.

One reason I was impressed with Shameless Coleman was his willingness to run at players and carry the ball into the box ie give us something different in attack.

We never play the ball to space, only ever to feet (or worse, to midriff). I recall us ruining poor Andy Johnson because instead of playing the ball in front of him on the ground towards goal, we'd hoof the ball into the corner for him to hare after and then pass to... nobody because we are so slow at breaking away. Nothing seems to have changed.

I would like to see us play quicker, move the ball faster on the ground and vary the play in attack. Keep somebody up when defending corners. And vary the free-kick taker once in a while!

But listen to me: we got three hard points today and I am still moaning. What it is to be an Evertonian.
Rob Murphy
11   Posted 30/10/2010 at 20:42:00

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I think Everton find it difficult when they have to take the game to people, especially when the onus is on them to attack i.e. at Goodison. We depend completely on Arteta and Pienaar for our creativity and for me, Arteta has yet to get going this season. What is encouraging though is we seem to be totally dominating teams with regard to possession, when Arteta gets upto speed & Fellaini is restored to the midfield it'll be interesting to see just what this team can achieve. Another 3pts lads, starting to enjoy my Saturday evenings of late!! COYB
Robert Daniels
12   Posted 30/10/2010 at 20:46:34

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Michael,

I know what you mean, re the performance, and I think you dont trust Moyes any more, as a lot don't.

But, we have seen some of the so-called top sides win badly, or should I say without to much flare... the difference for me is that game looked like a potential defeat; as I watched it, I thought "Here we go, we're about to cop it" ? but we didn't.

All the good sides have days like these: ugly, hard-fought, scrappy wins. But a win none the less.

In days gone past, recent days, we would've come out of that game with a point or worse.

So "pitiful" it wasn't ? it was fuckin great.
Matthew Lovekin
13   Posted 30/10/2010 at 21:05:07

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The likes of Stoke, Wolves and Birmingham are only doing what Everton did under Moyes's first few seasons in charge. It's physical, defensive and try to nick a goal stuff.

Everton have tried to improve beyond this point into playing decent football to compete against the Tottenhams and Villas, etc., but we still need to be able to compete physically which we did against Stoke and still got the three points.

Therefore, good result.
John Andrews
14   Posted 30/10/2010 at 21:12:37

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Rob, I agree with your views. I reckon we are more comfortable against
the sides who come with an attacking formation.

Michael, I agree up to a point with you, we do not move the ball quickly enough, we won't use 3 passes when 6 will do. More movement = more options.

Leon Perrin
15   Posted 30/10/2010 at 21:44:15

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I don't begrudge people enjoying a win, but we're shit regarding attacking play. Going forward, we slide into a footballing stupor.

I think we're in a time of unrivalled opportunity for someone brave enough to grasp the nettle in this Prem full of cloned dullard managers; signs are it won't be us.

Stilted, unimaginative, we look uncomfortable on the ball arsing around all the time, lacking conviction; if it was a lad's night out, none of them would get their end away.

Davey needs help with the attacking play because it's shit; ring Cruyff up and ask him over as a consultant, he can stay at our Pete's place, gratis, if he's pricey.

He's got a big detached place in West Kirby just down the road from Benitez's old gaff with a smart new Range Rover, and the chippy does home delivery, flash git.

Danny Jones
16   Posted 30/10/2010 at 21:46:53

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In some people's eyes, beating Barcelona ten-nil would still beat shit.
Brian Lawlor
17   Posted 30/10/2010 at 22:13:13

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Danny - Stevie Wonder's?
Danny Jones
18   Posted 30/10/2010 at 22:12:02

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Oh by the way, City, the most expensive team in the league have just been beaten by the team who where second from bottom. Is that Mancini's fault or did Wolves play well?... Which would be because of McCarthy's brilliance.
Danny Jones
19   Posted 30/10/2010 at 22:23:16

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No Brian, even Stevie could see that Stoke are going to go away from home and be hard to break down. In fact ask the mancs how hard they are to beat at home where they are meant to be, well hard to beat...
Ciarán McGlone
20   Posted 30/10/2010 at 22:43:14

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"Even my 3-year-old wants to post!! "
-----

You've probably already covered that level of analysis Brian.
Micheal Lynch
21   Posted 30/10/2010 at 22:43:59

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It was a win but that was all. We created a few chances but a basic skill like striking the ball, a la the Yak and Coleman when they had chances, was poor.

Then, the last ten mins, eleven behind the ball inviting them on rather than going for the kill. Top four sides go for the kill ? not what we did to-day. Can you imagine the reaction on here if they got one?

If people think we have turned the corner, I think they are mistaken. It will take another few games to see what unfolds. As for now we will be glad of the three points but, as much as Davey has many good qualities, being a good tactician is not one.

Aidy Dews
22   Posted 30/10/2010 at 21:41:57

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I think Michael *2's summary is spot on: Stoke weren't dirty or over physical and really were unlucky not to get more out of the game, they came with a game plan and it nearly worked but what they did better than us was press the player in possesion and forced us into mistakes, they didn't give us a sniff when we were in possesion.

But that's when its good to get the 3 points, when you're not on your game and the things you try to do don't work out and the oppostion make it difficult for you, you have to grind the win out ? and we did that today.
Larry Boner
23   Posted 30/10/2010 at 22:44:32

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I thought Everton played some excellent joined-up football, very one sided though, almost every attack goes down the left with Baines as the provider. For the first game this season, Baines's final ball was often delayed and inaccurate.

Coleman had one of those games where you think the ball is positive and your foot is the same ? basic physics: positives repel, I think!

I thought Yakubu looked like the player we paid £11M for, West Ham must be regretting the derisory offer they made for him in the summer as they have absolutely no goal threat.

Anyway, the glaring weakness I see when I watch our style of play is that the midfield players never go past the forwards, there are never any through balls played by the Everton midfield ? if Steven Ireland played for Everton, he would never touch the ball, never mind score, as his whole game is to make well timed runs beyond the forwards. That is the fundamental reason we don't score the goals that match our overwhelming possession.

Best players I ever saw making these timed runs into space: Martin Peters, Ray Kennedy, Terry McDermott (sorry to mention RS players). As I always say to my son, there is no such thing as a great pass ? it's the run that makes the pass.

Danny Jones
24   Posted 30/10/2010 at 23:10:14

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"Ciaran - my 3 year old has been to more games than you ", now that is one of the best put down's I have ever heard! Very funny! Brian

Lee Kidd
25   Posted 30/10/2010 at 23:49:28

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Yeah guess I should clarify - Stoke weren't overtly physical today but they were strong, put banks of players in position to spoil and put a shift in. Teams find that hard to break down.

I'd love us to batter teams every week but I just think against organised, physical teams like this you grab the three points and be glad the banana skin has been avoided.

And Brian, yes, I've screamed for Moyes to be sacked and being completely honest I still do think he should go. But I'm not completely unreasonable - I sang Moyes' praises for his tactical approach against Liverpool and today was a good scrappy win. I still think he has generally taken us as far as he can though.
Derek Thomas
26   Posted 30/10/2010 at 23:57:50

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Grant me the premise, for augument's sake that more money = a better player (we don't mention Bily).

Moyes on the whole, has taken single-digit players and has seen them/helped them become double-digit players.

Moyes is a single-digit manager who at times looks a double-digit one.

His 'good' points (well documented) have got us and the team where we are... and his 'bad' points (EXTREMELY well documented) stop us going on to batter teams/move into genuine CL material.

'Better' teams than us can and do come unstuck vs Stoke. This is the Premier League and, whatever that is, it isn't the best ? as is oft stated ? only the most richest and hyped up.

The Stokes and Wigans of this world can do it in the EPL where effort WILL get you so far... so you have to beat what is put in front of you... any way you can.

Until we can get genuine double-digit players and a coach that can pick a formation and methodology (not 'keep it tight and pinch one') to make THEM over-achieve... Well, old-style School of Science footy AND a team seen off 4-0 at a canter will be a fleeting visitor to these shores.

Do I like it? No. Will I have to take what little crumbs come our way? Yes.

Because the alternative maybe playing 'decent' football in the Championship.
Ian McPherson
27   Posted 31/10/2010 at 00:52:53

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They came for a draw and we ground out 3 points. Bigger fish to fry, onwards and upwards. COYB.
Dick Fearon
28   Posted 31/10/2010 at 01:30:13

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Michael (#2) ? a very good description of a poor game. It's good to see that more people are starting to pick up on our lack of penetration.

The phalanx of head-set wearing ex-defenders, now coaches, that are packed into our dugout have over the years proved incapable of advising the players on how to attack.

Stephen Kenny
29   Posted 31/10/2010 at 01:00:16

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Dick,

Tony Mowbray knows how to attack, you're talking bollocks. We played pretty much the same when tricky winger Alan Irvine was the assistant manager.
Ernie McAllister
30   Posted 31/10/2010 at 04:18:34

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What we need to remember is that there are always going to be apologists for this excuse of a performance. To the OP how you can seriously defend this is beyond me.

Imagine if the linesman would have given Stoke their goal... I somehow don't think you'd be too quick to jump to the rescue so quickly.

This performance pretty much sums up what Moyes has always been about... It's rare we put on a good display that lasts more than 45 mins. But here... jeez, these fuckers are paid immense wages and they had fuck all clue on what to do?

If this was a match in isolation, I could forgive them this shit... but c'mon, it's hardly a once-only performance this season, is it?
Ernie McAllister
31   Posted 31/10/2010 at 04:21:58

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Derek Thomas ? sounds like he'd do well in the Championship...

I think if we tried to compare ourselves to a Championship side, we'd be insulting a bunch of better qualified Championship sides seriously.

Moyes ? I heard Pompey need a new manager... perfect there for you, they too have no money, need a maveric Championship Manager... perfect opportunity imo!
Ernie McAllister
32   Posted 31/10/2010 at 04:25:32

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Derek Thomas - His 'good' points (well documented) have got us and the team where we are... and his 'bad' points (EXTREMELY well documented) stop us going on to batter teams/move into genuine CL material.

Better teams come unstuck against Stoke?

I agree with that statement tho.. to the only provision the team coming unstuck have shoved a shite reserve team out or really really can't be bothered with the fixture.

You mention Moyes's good points... I'd like to know what those are.

Team Morale is created by the players, it has absolutely nothing to do with dithering tactically retarded Moyes.

The team play inspite of Moyes not because of him ? that's a fact.

Now also people call Stoke a bunch of thugs... what is Hibbo and Fella and a bunch of others like Pienaar then? They are pretty much guilty of the same thing. To call another team a bunch of thugs is childish and unwarranted, especially when we have our own thugs too... half glass empty statement by an apologist?

You really need to watch some of our 'thugs' in action to realize we are and can be just as guilty as teams like Stoke. Imo they should have been given that equalizing goal because I saw nothing wrong with it.. I think we really did have lady luck smiling down on us yesterday... with the absolute clueless inept performance well known under Moyes's tenure.

Don't try to make excuses for the shit performance, as I said above we have had too many of them this season for my liking.
Jason Heng
33   Posted 31/10/2010 at 06:43:58

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Ernie, you're saying Everton has been effective playing since 2002 without a manager?

And the likes of Cahill, Arteta, etc have resolved to play under this tactically retarded manager, extending their contracts even?

All this while without being relegated.

We support a remarkable club indeed.

Dee Gidwani
34   Posted 31/10/2010 at 06:40:25

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So you'd rather us play pretty football and lose?

Grinding out results like this will only help build confidence. Great 3 pts. We were surely lucky though.... but I'll take it!
Jamie Sweet
35   Posted 31/10/2010 at 06:57:27

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Ernie, you really are the most miserable bastard I have ever had the mis-fortune to come across. You were on here being a miserable bastard when we beat Liverpool the other week.

Your obvious disgust of pretty much everything to do with our football club makes me wonder why you bother supporting them.
Dee Gidwani
36   Posted 31/10/2010 at 07:05:13

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There is a reason why Moyes is so highly regarded by his peers!

True, we don't know how he would perform if he did have serious money to spend, but what he has achieved with the limited resources has been great!

Sure we have a right to be bitter when we lose and we have a right to have a go at Moyes and some of the players when we lose.

But to come out and bitch so much after winning is just annoying to read! Enjoy the victories please!!!
Martin Faulkner
37   Posted 31/10/2010 at 09:22:35

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Ernie,
Imo they should have been given that equalizing goal because I saw nothing wrong with it. Only it wouldn't have been the equalizing goal would it? It would of put them in front.

Agree with you re: clueless going forward though. The only thing I'll say though is Moyes said himself after the game we didn't move it about quick enough, let's see if he addresses this in the next couple of games. I don't think we ever will with a centre-back playing in centre-midfield though....

Jon Cox
38   Posted 31/10/2010 at 09:22:14

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You can moan and gripe all long about the disallowed Stoke goal but for me all I'll say is what about the penalty we weren't given when Baines had his legs scythed from under him?

OK so this game wasn't the prettiest on the footballing planet but come next May I will not be thinking of the whys and wherefores of how we played but the fact that we gained three points.

I remember the RS game the other season when we played them off the park but lost 2-0 at home. Would they have been worried about how they played or happy for the points?

Hibbo & Fella ? thugs? How laughable is that? Hibbo's a defender; he defends at all cost and, if he has to go in hard, then so be it. Same with Fella. Fella's as hard as he needs to be but some people make him out to be worse that De Jong FFS.

I agree that that Moyes needs to get his head together for some attacking tactics but is anyone trying to say that Utd, Chelsea the Arse and a few others never ever have to grind out the 1-0 wins over the course of a season?
Steven Twine
39   Posted 31/10/2010 at 10:08:13

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Three points again without Fellaini, Osman and Rodwell. Coleman only starting his 3rd/4th game, and against a Stoke team that everyone in the Prem struggles against.

Stoke are fighting to stay in the Prem: they don't roll over and let teams play football, they fight til the end. They also have some quaility players. I for one think it was a terrific 3 points, not the best game of football... but who cares ? it's another win.

Some question Moyes but he can't cross the ball for Baines who wasted a few promising positions; he can't do anything if Pienaar gives the ball away and they nearly score; he cant do anything if Cahill mis-controls the ball... So let's be upbeat and bring on Blackpool.

Eugene Ruane
40   Posted 31/10/2010 at 10:49:14

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The game could have just as easily been drawn or lost and that's Everton for the last few seasons. Too many tight dull games that see us win a few, lose a few and draw a few.

I don't see our fortunes dictated by Moyes or tactics, but rather to little bits of luck (good/bad) on a given day. We had a bit of luck Saturday, we won. Next week ? who knows?

Yes, Stoke are a 'big strong side' etc but I take the view that they're also static puddins' who we should have passed off the park and beaten 3-0.

For me the most memorable thing about Saturday (after Yak's goal) was watching Neville and Coleman trying to defy the laws of physics by both trying to occupy EXACTLY the same space. What's the opposite of telepathy?

Jon Cox
41   Posted 31/10/2010 at 11:59:40

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Radiopathy?
Eugene Ruane
42   Posted 31/10/2010 at 12:25:44

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Jon you read my mind.
David Parks
43   Posted 31/10/2010 at 12:51:48

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We played much better at Villa and lost.

I know which game I preferred.
Tony J Williams
44   Posted 31/10/2010 at 13:33:20

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I don't care if we look like Accrington Stanley at the moment, as long as we get 3 points.

Two wins in a couple of weeks yet posters still have to have a go at the team....In a Kamara stylee "Unbelievable Jeff"
Neil Quinn
45   Posted 31/10/2010 at 13:41:59

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I think that some of our final balls were a bit wayward yesterday. Notably from players who aren't usually guilty of this, Baines & Arteta.

However, as somebody has already mentioned, we've played much better and lost - Villa & Blackburn being the obvious examples.

Now & again, we'll need to 'win ugly' as we did yesterday. If you hark back to last season, it was daft draws against the likes of Stoke, West Ham & Birmingham which cost us a European place.
Simon Jenkins
46   Posted 31/10/2010 at 14:15:43

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Re #14 Robert Daniels: "...and I think you dont trust Moyes any more, as a lot dont..."

Where on earth has this come from? I'm a season ticket holder (Upper Gwladys Street end), and I also go to every away game.

There is absolutely no disquiet against Moyes. His name is sung at every home game without fail, with as much as fevour as ever, he is loved by the away fans (arguably the diehards who spend every penny on following the club). His reception coming out at half time away at Fulham was fantastic, commented on by Moyes, Neville and even BK himself. It lifted him, and lifted the team, and set the wheels in motion for our current unbeaten run.

There's a vocal minority who may be having their usual snidey, sometimes clueless, pops at Moyes on here, but the reality is Moyes is still widely regarded as by far and away the best manager we could have leading us at the moment.
Karl Masters
47   Posted 31/10/2010 at 14:29:41

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I thought before yesterday's match that it would be a tough match with patience being the key, especially as Stoke have been very strong in second halves this season. A classic 1-0 if ever there was.

And so it proved.

To my mind, we are slowly re-discovering last season's form. However, this time results have taken an upswing from late September rather than late December. Only 10 games gone this time and we are starting to produce better football along with better results. Our bad start is now cancelled out ? results versus last season we are now level on points.

So let's see if we can bag another 6 points against Blackpool and Bolton before Arsenal come to Goodison. They will give us space to play and that will be a true test. In the meantime, support the team ? things are looking up.
Karl Masters
48   Posted 31/10/2010 at 14:41:46

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Oh,and I forgot to mention.

Last season we were soft at the back all season long and it cost us dear. We let in 7 goals in the first 2 games. This year we have let in 7 goals in 10 games.

With shoring up that leaky defence and keeping clean sheets again has come a slightly less goal-happy attack, but the Yak and Saha are fit now so the goals will come.
David Price
49   Posted 31/10/2010 at 14:29:47

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Simon,#49, spot on about Moyes.

No-one has mentioned Saha looking sharp when he came on, with Rodwell ready and Fellaini close there's growing options for Moyes again.

I'm sure the lads are aware of their own performance on Saturday with a determination to improve next week against Blackpool. The team is on a good run and about five games ahead of schedule if the last two seasons are the benchmark.
COYB.

Paul Olsen
50   Posted 31/10/2010 at 14:53:52

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Pityful is just Kenrick's normal way of making a piece more interesting for the readers.

It wasn't pityful, but more hits and clicks on the article if he adds that. More discussion as well.

It wasn't pityful, it wasn't great either but something in the middle just isn't as interesting.
Eugene Ruane
51   Posted 31/10/2010 at 14:41:01

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Simon Jenkins, why is anyone having a 'pop' at Moyes 'snidey'?

I assume you post under your own name and I assume his critics do.

Fact: Posting a negative opinion of Moyes's performance and/or ability is simply a contrary position to your own - every bit as valid (when backed up) and no more or less snidey.

One more thing, I can give you a list as long as King Kong's arm of stuff (eg: bands, films, TV shows etc that are "widely regarded" (eg: the fucking X fucking factor) doesn't mean they're any good.
David Thomas
52   Posted 31/10/2010 at 15:11:17

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Simon 49,

Agree 100%. I am also a season ticket holder and go to every single match home or away and I have never heard any disquiet towards Moyes. As you said at every single game this season his name has been sung by the fans.

The only hostility against Moyes that I have come across is on this website.
Simon Jenkins
53   Posted 31/10/2010 at 15:55:38

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Well Eugene (and I assume that is your real name), Robert Daniels quantified his opinion of Moyes' critics as being 'lots'.

I simply pointed out that isn't FACTUALLY true, based on people who actually go the match and who can actually give the media ammunition to have a go at Moyes, i.e. by booing Moyes, catcalling his decisions, etc.

My definition of 'snidey' is making things up, as Mr Daniels clearly did, and exaggerating things, as Mr Kenrick of this fine site does from time to time.
Michael Kenrick
Editorial Team
54   Posted 31/10/2010 at 16:10:36

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No Paul (#53), I should perhaps be glad that makes it more interesting for you... although I'm not convinced. I honestly thought the way we played with the ball was poor; I believe we could have done far better with it. Others don't; so be it. That's what this website is about ? the various opinions of Evertonians.

You seem to have trouble with that concept... It has nothing to do with traffic or hits, so I'd like you to retract that assertion ? it is completely false. I have no idea how many 'clicks' an article gets or how this would affect anything.

ps: Do you want me to correct your 'pityful' spelling?
Lee Kidd
55   Posted 31/10/2010 at 16:30:41

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Ernie - me, a Moyes apologist, really?

Jesus, you evidently haven't read anything I've posted previously!

We weren't free flowing and we weren't penetrative - and we very rarely are. I actually agree that that is a big fault with Moyes in that we're too negative too often.

But against Stoke you take what you can in my opinion, so three points by hook or crook is job done.

I just don't think you can describe any game against Stoke as a good or bad display - if you thrash them, it's expected, and if you narrowly edge them, it's disappointing, if they hold on to a draw, it's frustrating and if we lose we bemoan their tactics.

So in this one instance Moyes was on a hiding to nothing. I'll judge him (and be critical of him) in games where Everton should be playing effective football, not in games like this when you just scrap out a victory.
Dave Roberts
56   Posted 31/10/2010 at 16:15:47

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If I asked a 1000 level headed 'football' people what the best club side in the world was, I reckon 999 of them would say Barcelona. The odd one out would be the usual and ever present contrary bugger.

The 999 would probably be right. Yet I remember Inter Milan only a few short months ago parking the bus in front of them and Barcelona did not, in the end, have a clue as to how to break them down. Barcelona resorted eventually to long range efforts and diving for penalties in frustration.

Now maybe Everton are no Barcelona and Stoke are no Inter Milan but what both games demonstrated was how difficult it is to break down teams who are determined to defend with 11 men behind the ball. It is especially difficult when the defending team have an average height advantage of about 6 fucking inches and without being necessarily dirty in the old fashioned sense, are very adept at employing their physical advantages.

I was more worried about yesterday's game than I was about the derby before it, because teams like Stoke and Wolves et al are the ones we have most of our problems with. Stoke and Wolves have survived in the Premier League (surprisingly to many people) because they are good at what they do. They try to stop the opposition playing and use their height at both ends of the pitch especially Stoke. They are Vikings who come to rape and pillage.

As for the disallowed 'goal', my seat is in the Upper Bullens and from my viewpoint 30 yards away and above the incident, Tunçay turned his shoulder and upper arm into Baines's back and shoved him over as he went for the ball. I was surprised it was given (because often they are not) but it was a foul and it was one of the few things the referee got right. So Everton were not lucky in that sense.

There also seems to be a bit of confusion on here about the season so far. Yes, we have lacked the goalscoring touch but in most games it has not been for the want of making chances.

Against Blackburn and Villa as well as Newcastle and Birmingham to a degree... and even the first half against Man Utd, making chances was not the problem ? it was converting them.

The Stoke game was entirely different. Stoke's plan was to stop us making chances and they were fairly successful. But they are against most of the teams they play, that is what they are good at. That is what they do. But Everton plugged away and we won. Lighten up. There will be a lot more games like that in the Premier League and not all Stoke's opponents will be as successful as Everton.

Well done Blues.
Jon Cox
57   Posted 31/10/2010 at 18:07:27

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Dave (59) enjoyed that.
John Nelson
58   Posted 31/10/2010 at 18:54:07

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All I have to say is of the last 5 games:

3 wins...

2 draws...

6 goals scored...

1 goal against (a goalkeeping error I might add)... and now 7th in the table and 3 points off European places...

Now if that is not progress and good form then I don't have a fucking clue about football and obviously haven't for the past 24 years.

Seriously some people need to lighten up and start getting behind the team when they are supposed to, ie when we are WINNING.

Spot on result yesterday blues, well done.

COYB
Richard Dodd
59   Posted 31/10/2010 at 18:57:17

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I have no doubt that we can hold on to eighth place for the second year running and we MIGHT even do a little better! The resources available to our manager would probably be comensurate with a team finishing 12/13th but year after year we punch way above our weight and that is thanks to managerial genius and that of a chairman who has absolute faith in him!
Karl Masters
60   Posted 31/10/2010 at 19:16:28

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Or a Chairman who knows full well that it is only Moyes's ability to manage with a transfer buget of fuck all that is deflecting the attention away from his own failings.......

Richard Dodd: You are an Evertonian, but I can only assume you are related to Uriah Heap such is your cringeworthy sycophancy to Bill Kenwright!
Robert Daniels
61   Posted 31/10/2010 at 20:04:57

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Simon Jenkins,

I was highlighting the fact that Michael may or may not trust Moyes, but it was a good result yesterday, which I stated if you had read it.

I also go every week, and I'm in the Park End, and have been for over 40 years; I'm entitled to say what the fuck I like after spending a fortune watching my beloved Blues.

For your infomation, there are lots of people who I talk to at the game, and even more at work, or just socially, who don't trust Moyes... By that, I mean tactics, ability to take us to the next level, winning a trophy, etc. I didn't, repeat, didnt, make out they were in the majority, nor the minority either.

But there are lots, and most of the people i talk too who think like this would love it if Moyes turned out to be our special one, none more so than me.

So keep your own snidey remarks to yourself thanks, and don't try and turn a debate about yesterday's performance into a personal crusade for Moyes.
Eugene Ruane
62   Posted 31/10/2010 at 19:52:10

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Simon Jenkins you say "My definition of 'snidey' is making things up, as Mr Daniels clearly did, and exaggerating things, as Mr Kenrick of this fine site does from time to time".

Sorry...'MY definition'!?

Well thank you Dr Johnson but I'll stick to the ACTUAL meaning - nasty, sneering, malicious, mean, cynical, unkind, hurtful, sarcastic, disparaging, spiteful, insinuating, scornful, shrewish, ill-natured (nb: NOT 'liar' or 'exaggerator')

By the way, you seem unhappy with what you see as a 'vocal' ((?) minority criticising Moyes on TW (minority? stats please!) yet seem happy enough to infer that the 300-500 Happy Al'ers (who break into "DAYMOYS-DAYMOYS-DAVEYDAVEYMOYES..." whenever Everton score away, are the majority.

Since the season kicked off TW has had a lot of posts on Moyes. I don't know what the ratio has been (for or against) but I know a lot has been 'against' (ie: had the nerve on occasion to question his tactics, selections etc)

Consequently, Robert Daniels was WELL within his rights to use the word 'lots' and to describe this as snidey indicates two things.

1) You don't know what snidey means.

2) You're accusing people of doing EXACTLY what YOU'RE doing (ie: exaggerating/making things up).

And by the way, trying to add credence to your claims with boasts about going home and away, does you (or anyone else) no favours.

"I was goin' when I was a foetus lad"

"A foetus!? Part-timer lad! I was goin' when I was sponk mate!"*




* that's sarcasm by the way.


Leon Perrin
63   Posted 31/10/2010 at 21:22:08

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My wife says I'm a snidey twat who makes things up on a regular basis.

Moyes is not good at producing an attacking team and the fare on offer to us Evertonians is defensive and invites teams on to us, occasionally we pop some viagra and get stuck in.
We need more viagra.
Robert Daniels
64   Posted 31/10/2010 at 21:53:05

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Eugene,

(A foetus!? Part-timer lad!),

Excellent... Shades of Pete and Dud there: We were so poor etc.

Class, pure class.
David Thomas
65   Posted 31/10/2010 at 22:21:29

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Eugene,

"yet seem happy enough to infer that the 300-500 Happy Al'ers (who break into "DAYMOYS-DAYMOYS-DAVEYDAVEYMOYES..." whenever Everton score away, are the majority."

So its just the Happy Al'ers is it. Please provide the stats for this.
Eugene Ruane
66   Posted 31/10/2010 at 22:26:05

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Leon - I think that's fair enough.

Well no..NOT that I think you're a snidey twat, but that your good lady uses snidey in that 'marriage context'.

My point to Simon 'better blue' Jenkins was simply that an opposing or contrary point of view is not snidey.

Especially when the opinion it's contrary to is unsubstantiated bollocks.
Eugene Ruane
67   Posted 31/10/2010 at 23:16:47

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Davis Thomas - I could admit I exaggerated to make a point, but I'll tell you what - as soon as I get Simon's stats, you'll get mine.

By the way, I remember being at Goodison when it seemed like most Everton supporters were singing 'Gordon Lee' to the the tune of Silent Night.

Within weeks many of the same people were chanting 'Lee Out' to the tune of...er...Bingham out.

Point - a load supporters singing in praise of a manager/player is NOT a pledge of devotion for life and opinions can and do change VERY quickly.
Paul Olsen
68   Posted 01/11/2010 at 04:13:50

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#Michael

You DO overdo things, making your headlines more shocking than what they in fact deserve. I don't mind you doing it however, just pointing it out. I also see you changed the heading now, so....

I do not have evidence that you do it to create more hits on the site, it could equally well be that you're just a dramatic guy. But, sure i have no real evidence that you do it to create more traffic on the site so i'll retract it.

Sure, feel free to correct my pityful spelling, i can't say i'm surprised that's the level you're gonna fall to when retorting.
Paul Olsen
69   Posted 01/11/2010 at 04:56:24

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Oh, and I didn't mean YOU are pitiful, I see my first line came out a bit wrong. As you understand i'm not a native english speaker :-)

I was just trying to work out why you used the term pitiful, when in fact it wasn't.
Tony J Williams
70   Posted 01/11/2010 at 13:26:09

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I agree with Paul that you are mischievious with your headlines. Doesn't make a difference to me though, as I will be clicking no matter what you start it off with.
David Thomas
71   Posted 01/11/2010 at 19:02:58

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Eugene,

Yes opinions can change very quickly and come the Blackpool match all Everton fans may be singing "Moyes Out", who knows? However, the point I am making is that up to this point in time I have never heard any hostility to Moyes at any Everton match however on this website there seems to be a high level of hostility towards him on a daily basis.
Robert Daniels
72   Posted 01/11/2010 at 19:28:35

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There was plenty of hostility against Moyes a couple of years ago at home against Spurs, when he was about to bring on a defender for a forward. And he knew it, after that he changed things.

There was a lot of animosity after the end of Big Dunc's last game, you no the one, the game were we finnished 11th after Moyes had said a couple of weeks earlier that this would be the first Everton team to finish in the top ten in the Prem, two years running... and promptly finnished 11th.

As if finishing in the top ten two years running was a fuckin achievment.

Dont get me wrong, I hope he gets it right and he is our most succsessfull manager ever. He does deserve to win something for his honesty, and integrity, and the conditions he has to work under.

But don't go kidding yourselves that he has never come in for critisism, he was on his way out before Anichebe saved him against Metalist.
Eugene Ruane
73   Posted 01/11/2010 at 20:05:46

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David you say..

"I have never heard any hostility to Moyes at any Everton match however on this website there seems to be a high level of hostility towards him on a daily basis"

Well I can explain that - TW is a platform for (hopefully) considered discussion, - the match isn't.

Also what you say is a 'high level of hostility' towards Moyes on TW, I disagree with completely.

A contrary point of view is NOT 'hostility', it is a different/opposite opinion and in my view this talk of 'hostility' is disingenuous (even if that opposing view is forcefully put)

Also I would challenge your "I have never heard any hostility to Moyes at any Everton match"

Personally I have not heard any anti-Moyes chanting (nb: and I'm glad I haven't) but on many occasions I HAVE heard frustration expressed during and/or after games with Moyes being the specific target of that frustration.

Plus you MUST have been at games (usually home) where the final whistle has been greeted by thousands of baying and booing Evertonians.

(eg: Newcastle a few weeks back)

Now I'm not suggesting those boos are ALL for Moyes, but as the man in charge he's DEFINITELY included.

Plus anytime you hear "Why doesn't he take Bily off, he's doin' fuck all" - that is Moyes being criticised

And "Get fucking Saha on/off" - that is Moyes being criticised.

And "We're playing shite" or "We're fucking clueless" etc etc - ALL indirectly a 'pop' at Moyes

(nb: I'm NOT suggesting Moyes should EVER rely on us to make decisions, just pointing out there are other ways of showing disapproval than chanting 'Moyes out!").

I have before (including very recently) stated I like Moyes as a feller. Like how he conducts himself and believe him to be honest.

However I believe he has an ingrained 'Presbyterian' personality which stifles imagination and I believe imagination is required to win stuff.

I could be wrong (and I genuinely hope I am) but that's what his performance over the last eight years suggests to me.

I'll go along with 'In Moyes we trust not to get us relegated', but that's it.

Not a hostile opinion, just a different/opposite one to those who who seem to prefer the less specific 'In Moyes we trust'
David Thomas
74   Posted 01/11/2010 at 22:29:47

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"he was on his way out before Anichebe saved him against Metalist."
Says who Robert? Please can you offer some more information on this statement. I had not heard Moyes say he was resigning around this time and i had not heard Kenwright say he was close to sacking him? Any further info would be appreciated.


Eugene,
"Well I can explain that - TW is a platform for (hopefully) considered discussion, - the match isn't". I see your point. However i have on a regular basis at the match heard abusive gestures shouted at the likes of Hibbert, Osman, Billy, Neville and Yakubu just like i have read a lot of criticism of these players on this website. So it looks to me that there is some level of balance between these two platforms ie TW and the match regarding the said individuals. However, in my experience the level of abuse that David Moyes gets on this website does not tally with the criticism that he gets at the match, far from it in fact. Thats why in my opinion if you were to ask every match going evertonian do they want Moyes to stay then i would expect the Yes voters to win by a landslide. This research will obviously never take place so obviously it is just my opinion from what i personally have experienced at the match and read on this website.
Robert Daniels
75   Posted 01/11/2010 at 23:11:12

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David,

Moyes was under the spotlight at the Metalist game, dont you remember?

As for the home game against Spurs, the whole ground booed ? that's right, the whole ground.

You obviously weren't at that game, cause if you were, you would not make silly statements on here that Moyes has never received criticism at any match. What you mean, I think, is, at any match you've been too.

We all want the same thing: success... and Moyes to deliver it. But to say he has never been criticised at Goodison is an untruth my friend.
Tony J Williams
76   Posted 02/11/2010 at 00:32:54

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"A contrary point of view is NOT 'hostility'," Not it's not but calling him a shithouse, gutless, clueless, tactically inept and ginger is.
Eugene Ruane
77   Posted 02/11/2010 at 05:14:18

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Tony, if someone is posts "Moyes is a shithouse" I would accept this as hostile.

BUT, if it was accompanied by a detailed list of examples of cowardice, I personally would have no problem with it (nb: for the record, I DON'T think Moyes is a shithouse/coward)

I'm less concerned by 'gutless'. I think gutless is a legitimate criticism if a poster thinks he is genuinely lacking guts - ie: if for example someone believes his team selections are overly defensive (nb: for the record, I DON'T think Moyes is gutless)

As for 'tactically inept', I'm fine with this and don't see it as 'hostility', I see it as clear, concise criticism - particularly when backed up by examples (nb: for the record, I do NOT think of Moyes as tactically inept although he's no tactical genius either).

The fact is, criticism is usually hostile to a degree which is why I believe the use of 'hostility' (in this instance) is disingenuous as it infers unthinking slagging.

I'm not saying that NEVER happens on TW, but I believe it's rare and that (right or wrong) most strong opinions are accompanied by reasons/substantiation.

Oh and for the record, my only problem with Moyes is I believe him to be devoid of imagination (if that's hostile - tough titty)



David Thomas
78   Posted 03/11/2010 at 18:28:20

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Robert,

There is a huge difference between being under the spotlight and being "on the way out" as you put it.

Also, yes I was at the spurs game and to say the whole crowd booed is absolute tosh.

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