BBC 606, Grand Old Team ... posters from sites left, right and centre are having a pop at Toffeeweb ... largely, it seems, because views are posted with which they disagree.
It seems that there are far too few Moyes groupies on this site; far too many critics of Kenwright.
Should we repent and believe the good news of the Official Site, or continue in a spirit of friendly, constructive criticism?
I for one have examined my conscience and plead guilty to the charge of not believing that David Moyes is omniscient, but a goodish manager doing a tricky job, and that Kenwright is a very lucky shyster.
Mike McLean, Posted 03/11/2010 at 22:14:39
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 03/11/2010 at 23:31:53
I am not a Moyes groupie, but I am a Moyes supporter.
2 Posted 03/11/2010 at 23:33:11
3 Posted 03/11/2010 at 23:55:19
4 Posted 03/11/2010 at 23:36:39
A generation who've known only a Cup Final victory under Joe Royle and relegation battles are understandably pro-Davey, allied to the fact he's a reasonable man.
There's another thread running at the moment evoking memories of a different time where the present style of play and the expectations would be unrecognisable only the blue shirts and Goodison Park would tell you we are Everton FC.
If you've experienced such times you're not in awe of the present set up.
As for Kenwright I don't think a wider audience gives a monkey's about him and generally his genial "Uncle Everton" portrayal pays off. Until we have a catastrophe and he's forced out or his kings ransom with strings is paid, we're stuck with him.
5 Posted 04/11/2010 at 00:28:37
So, to question him must I be some sort of idiot? Well, those I know who support Spurs, Chelsea and United respond slightly differently. "Great manager, he's worked miracles for you. Don't think he'd fit in with us, though".
Incidentally, all of these supporters drink in the same bar. It's an Irish thing.
6 Posted 04/11/2010 at 00:41:10
7 Posted 04/11/2010 at 01:13:11
8 Posted 04/11/2010 at 02:08:41
9 Posted 04/11/2010 at 03:07:29
Also true is that he is inherently negative, exhibits breathtaking tactical naivity at times and has made some attrocious buys. I also accuse him of being too protective of good young prospects.
This is a great board but it has underlying unnatural and unjustified negativity where patently massive players like P.Neville and good club players like Osman and Hibbert are routinely slagged rotten for apparently nothing less than not being Ray Wilson or Alan Ball?
I'm proud to support this club as I have actively for over 50 years now and I'm very impressed with the level that we have achieved with so little. We should change our stupid and meaningless club motto and accept that this is 2010 and we are a small club.
10 Posted 04/11/2010 at 03:29:25
11 Posted 04/11/2010 at 03:28:40
Give me the more clued-up posters we have on here rather than the deluded lot they have over there anytime.
12 Posted 04/11/2010 at 03:45:53
But Hicks and Gillette have been a godsend to Bill as fans are now wary of new owners, but would it not be more useful to air your feelings about GOT ont hat site and give those with different views to you to defend themselves.
13 Posted 04/11/2010 at 03:43:45
These people seem unable to take in the whole concept of ToffeeWeb and end up stereotyping based on grossly selective processing of the (usually) very wide range of opinions posted. Nothing annoys me more... but it's something even a significant portion of our posters like to indulge in.
Someone might say Osman is good; others might say he is not so good. Some say he was lousy when playing injured and out of position; he gets fit and is played in the right position and some (who may have said he was shit) now say he has improved. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with this range of opinions ? that's what football is about, and that fact that it changes over time.
But what is wrong is falsely homogenizing this broad diversity into idiotic statements like "ToffeeWeb Says Hibbert is shit" or whatever. When in fact it's the contributors to ToffeeWeb who say a whole bunch of things about Hibbert, that he's a good defender, that he backs off too far, that he can and has tamed the best of wingers, that he had a tough Cup Final against Malouda, that his crosses are poor... oh and maybe even one or two will say that he is shit.
This is the reality: that our contributors provide a wide range of opinions; but sadly, perceptions always rule. The main thing about Everton for me, however, is not talking or writing about them, but watching them play football matches. [Duh!] And getting something out of that in the form of entertainment, excitement, emotion...
Once that playing bit is done, then I want to go over to reading about the game. But apparently posting immediately after the match is taboo... (Er, who wrote that rule?). Anyway, I now watch exclusively on TV feeds, and am actively confronting the taboo by posting on this site my summary of the match that has just been completed. If the game had entertainment, excitement, emotion, my summary should reflect that; however, if it was poor (or, as I felt at half-time last against Fulham, pitiful) it will inevitably be pretty downbeat. For me, a poor performance negates so much about the watching experience. It was so bad on Saturday it was literally a turnoff.
If that means I don't appreciate the football David Moyes has us playing, well, so be it; I aspire to an Everton side playing far far better football. I would not be honest if I said otherwise. People are quick to provide a myriad of excuses as to why Everton can't play like that, and insist that I should accept them. Unfortunately, I've seen Everton play good football with my own eyes ? under David Moyes... so I know they can play good football. Not every week, of course, but it should be more than once in a blue moon... or almost never ? which is what it currently feels like.
The other thing people don't like is that I take action when they become abusive ? and they almost always become abusive because they disagree with a specific opinion posted, but are unable to counter it in any other way than being abusive. We have our conditions of use: I believe they are reasonable for most Evertonians. The number of posts rejected is vanishingly small, while the traffic and contributions are close to the point of becoming unmanageable.
14 Posted 04/11/2010 at 05:08:25
15 Posted 04/11/2010 at 05:54:02
16 Posted 04/11/2010 at 06:59:31
As probably most on here I scour all sites Everton related and although I don't always agree with everything on here .. (notably the Stoke report where I watched the match after reading it to think well this isn't nearly as bad..) it is those differences that make it such a great site... the fact is TW posters don't just support the club deeply.. they think deeply about the club too and that for me is what makes it the best site on the web!
Thinking further about it.. just look at the TW lay out.. they clearly subscribe to the mantra NSNO for themselves.. and we all clearly believe this is creed Everton should work to at all times...
17 Posted 04/11/2010 at 07:42:25
I was driven to write my first article on Toffeeweb because I was so incensed at the official propoganda regarding the future laid out by the Chairman and CEO at the time.
The fact that the bulk of the propoganda was shown to be what is was, lies and BS, did not make me feel any better bout the club, it made me even more concerned about what we as fans are fed.
I had an opinion, I could express it and did. There was an immediate and hostile response from many that made me realise that there were no prisoners taken in Toffeeweb. I remember asking Michael and Lyndon if I should continue to post and was reminded that opinions evoke strong responses sometimes and abusive ones too and that I need to take the good with the bad.
I did, and I am glad I did,
This site should not be lightly dismissed by supporters, club or the media at large. It gives sometimes a wonderful indepth insight into our history and our future. That it should question decisions made or comments / intentions of the club is a reflection that in its own way some posters have provided an almost investigative journalist perspective that is as good as and indeed has surpassed much of what is written by the media.
That the media itself has taken to quote postings on TW is the due to the fact that what we have is a freedom of speech on the thing that is most dear to our hearts. Everton Football Club.
Thank you Michael and Lyndon for giving us the platform and the opportunity to ask the questions and in turn learn and enjoy.
18 Posted 04/11/2010 at 07:57:38
The point is, we're all free to read, post, respond as we see fit. If you vehemently disagree with the ethos of the site, then you can withdraw your patronage.
Other websites get "exclusive" interviews with various CEOs of the club, etc. etc. I would question whether they are truly independent as a result. Some people here have interviewed / met current / ex Everton greats, or others like Dr France, and can publish on here.
In my opinion, what makes TW the best, and first to read, is the variety of opinion. If everyone agreed, and contributors were to start going for coffee with the CEO or Chairman, then we'd have to call it Bl... or, already been done...
19 Posted 04/11/2010 at 08:53:39
As an example - Martin (9) said
"Also true is that [Moyes] is inherently negative, exhibits breathtaking tactical naivity at times and has made some attrocious buys. I also accuse him of being too protective of good young prospects."
"This is a great board but it has underlying unnatural and unjustified negativity where patently massive players like Phil Neville and good club players like Osman and Hibbert are routinely slagged rotten for apparently nothing less than not being Ray Wilson or Alan Ball?"
Well is not the criticism of the manager a perfect example of that unnatural and unjustified negativity ? it's fairly far fetched at least!
20 Posted 04/11/2010 at 08:57:21
History shows that the right to Freedom of Speech should always be defended. There will always be those that wish to take away/suppress that right.
Michael and Lyndon should be proud that TW provides an opportunity for the A-Z of Everton fans' opinions to be expressed... or should that read from Richard Dodd to Tony Marsh !
21 Posted 04/11/2010 at 09:14:59
I come to Toffeeweb cos I find that the contributors here are (on the whole) more insightful than those on other sites.
That's a preference on my part.
I don't give two hoots what they say elsewhere. We might disagree on certain matters, and some take it too far.
But, I like this site cos it provokes people to discuss the positives and negatives about the club I love (and on occassion, matters beyond all things blue).
Carry on chaps (and thanks to those that do the work behind the scenes on this site, it's very well run)...
22 Posted 04/11/2010 at 09:20:24
As they say, don't believe all you read in the papers. Don't believe the spin on the censored TV. Don't believe most of what's written on official websites.
Digest it all yourself and form your own opinions. Or do we have a generation who can't think for themselves, created by 20 years of dumbing down through a non-education system.
The tories look like they will be getting their own way on £9000 tuition fees to go to University. That should keep the elite as the elite. And the masses back in the dark.
Back to football at Everton ? if all is so good why the hell haven't we achieved the only objective that a professional football club should exist ? TO WIN TROPHIES.
23 Posted 04/11/2010 at 09:16:25
This is the nature of the fan.
Also... the site had witty contributors who actually take some care in what they submit rather than just hurling abuse.
By the way... what ever happened to Tony Marsh... the epitome of considered debate?
24 Posted 04/11/2010 at 09:23:52
We get a great spectrum of opinion on this site - people seem to say what they think. And then others respond. It makes for a great, entertaining and often very funny read rather than some of the content-free spin you get elsewhere.
My views on many Everton topics have certainly been influenced by what I have learned on here: for instance, I would be much more critical now of the current regime.
Let's keep it going lads ? sod em all.
25 Posted 04/11/2010 at 09:03:16
There have been some cracking debates on here when people actually engage themselves into it and leave out the insults.
My biggest bugbear is when posters suggest that we are in the state we are in now because some posters fail to rip into the manager/player/chairman on a football forum.
Phrases like - "How can we ever progress when these reactionaries seem to make up the majority of the fan base?" are littered about this site when posters react to the "Moyes is gash" type posts with anything less than complete agreement.
But as stated, it would be a boring site if this didn't happen.
26 Posted 04/11/2010 at 10:31:55
I just read the 606 page and it seems mainly populated by school kids. I think it has its place to cater for that set of fans.
27 Posted 04/11/2010 at 10:16:47
ToffeWeb is by far the best Everton website as it provides a platform for a broad range of opinions. The level of discourse ranges from the surreal (Eugene, your posts always make me smile) to the vitriolic (Tony Marsh, has he left the country?). I even think Doddy should have the space to post his ?loved up? views of the club.
It is clear that many of the contributors are intelligent, erudite and humorous. When the debate over the ground move raged on, ToffeWeb was the forum that provided the most informed discussion on the matter. People who were in favour of the move posted some great articles as those who were against did. The fact that the site does not engage in some kind of 1984 ?groupthink? is its greatest strength.
Lyndon, Michael and the rest of the team I am sure you have broad enough shoulders to dismiss the claims made on 606 and on other websites as being envious of the quality of ToffeeWeb.
28 Posted 04/11/2010 at 10:43:25
Simple statement, great website.
29 Posted 04/11/2010 at 11:24:19
Other sites (won't name the fish) have links with the clubs and will not question anything from the club or it's personnel in case it falls foul. Even removing posts that don't conform to "it's all such a big laugh" concept of their site and "even though we are going nowwhere, we are great".
30 Posted 04/11/2010 at 12:04:25
Also, some of the articles on here would put the regular press (especially that rag The Echo) to shame with the quality of writing and match analysis. Compare some of the regular contributors on here to e.g. Alan Hansen's column on the BBC website and it's like comparing Led Zeppelin to WetWetWet.
31 Posted 04/11/2010 at 12:30:29
How dire would the site be if we spent all day discussing pineapple on pizza or reading constant soliliques to average players.
The crazy thing is ToffeeWeb doesn't really have a stance. On the few occasion's Lyndon and Michael post they tend to disagree.
32 Posted 04/11/2010 at 12:27:16
33 Posted 04/11/2010 at 12:28:17
The AMB want to see a new manager, more attacking players, and for Everton to move in the right direction. We would like to see more focus on attacking players. I love TW as it's great to read and is minus the shit on Radio City, the Echo and in the mainstream press.
34 Posted 04/11/2010 at 12:32:15
It is informative, opinionated and offers a forum for debate.
Well done Michael, Lyndon and all the "backroom" team for continuing to run what is arguably the best football site on the web let alone the best EFC site.
35 Posted 04/11/2010 at 12:34:07
His reaction was one of utter incredulity, said such critics must be mad, and repeated his view that Moyes was a top class manager. I then said "ok, how about we take Wenger and Arsenal can have Moyes" . Oddly enough, he then went very quiet.
The problem I have with the BBC praise and all the manger awards is that it smells just a bit of: "He's good enough for a bunch of underachievers like Everton, their loyal support, quaint old ground and cheery old clown of a Chairman".
I don't like being patronised in that way, and so I'm with Michael, implacable though he may be at times.
We have a motto which proclaims that only the best is good enough. It may be annoying to read, for example, that we played badly last Saturday, or that being a nice bloke is not the sole attribute we should require of a left back. Maybe the TW editorial line smacks of an exacting Headmaster, but until we change the club motto, I don't see how there is any other point of view an Evertonian can take.
36 Posted 04/11/2010 at 12:58:45
37 Posted 04/11/2010 at 13:13:42
One believe that Moyes is a miracle worker whilst the other think he is the Devil incarnate.
He is simply somewhere in between, he is a good manager, but not a great one and he is limited by his chairman with lack of funds and having to sell to buy.
The NSNO group (the dead language by the way, you know gone, in the past, deceased, no more, late etc (copyright Monty Python)) blaming the others of no ambition is ridiculous aswell. Everyone has the same thought, we want Everton to win everything, they simply don't go Tony Marsh when we don't.
We would all love to have a Mourinho (who is actually quite defensive too) at the helm with the David Villa, Essien et al on bourd too, but it's never going to happen and realising that is not lack of ambition it's just accepting the horrible truth.
38 Posted 04/11/2010 at 13:44:41
39 Posted 04/11/2010 at 13:30:51
If you believe that a great TEAM can be built on a lower budget then you would expect David Moyes to be building such a team. I think he is not too far away but I also think his tactics and stubborn refusal to take chances limits our opportunity to find out just how good we can be. I was livid with our start to the season and would have got rid quite early on. Results have of course calmed me down a bit.
On ToffeeWeb, you are able to be an angry fan or a very pleased one. You can give the opinion that the Manager is awful, and as a fan you are entitled to do that.
Football is broadly financed by the media. They roll out the garbage churned out by the club PR machines. Most news these days is inspired by PR. How much stuff do you hear about Apple, Facebook, Microsoft etc?
Toffeeweb is real fans with real opinions. Difficult for the media industry to stomach these days as it is the truth about how people feel. Most stuff you hear and read is totally spun and disinfected before you see it.
I think Richard Dodd is mad as a hatter but I love the comments he stirs up. This site maintains the aspirations of Everton fans even if the rest of the world simply patronises the club as 'over-achieving.' Those of us with a longer history know we are still under-achieving and will be until we win the title again.
40 Posted 04/11/2010 at 14:10:02
I don't believe it's a Moyes/Kenwright issue, if we had a Mourinho/Bill Gates combination the majority of contributors to this site would have a whinge about something.
If this site won the lottery it would complain about the colour of the cheque.
41 Posted 04/11/2010 at 15:03:36
42 Posted 04/11/2010 at 15:20:19
Why are you so negative about the negative? People like you really depress me.
You would be happy with winning the league but those of us with the right attitude would point out it was not won with as much style as a Catterick team.
If you can't find a dark corner then you are not looking hard enough. Behind every silver lining there is a cloud.
43 Posted 04/11/2010 at 16:10:48
I find out stuff about the club I have an irrational love for, and I'm fascinated to read opinion which can be the polar opposite of my own.
The fact they are wrong does not detract from my fascination.
In summary Moyes is doing an ordinary job and Kenwright is doing a less than ordinary job whilst looking at ways of lining his pockets, DK being the embodiment of such.
44 Posted 04/11/2010 at 16:38:42
"F you! F me? F you, f**ker" etc., text-speak, poor spelling, and generally nothing in the way of intelligent conversation. Forget something well-written or funny. And double-forget wit.
But I stayed to read because LD was a big topic at the time and I've stayed to read since because TW is the exact opposite of everything I hate about these-type sites.
Someone a Toffee fan doesn't like this site? I feel bad for them. This is the site to be in talking EFC.
45 Posted 04/11/2010 at 16:41:15
46 Posted 04/11/2010 at 16:56:38
47 Posted 04/11/2010 at 17:18:39
The format changed and it went down the tube.
I found another frum Evertonians of 606 and was constantly on there until it was blocked at work.
I came on here and enjoy it, as even though Evertonians of 606 is my favourite site, as we take the piss out of each other there is something to say for sites where real arguments occur. It's just more interesting to read/get involved with an argument (let's be honest the word debate is suitable on some posts)
48 Posted 04/11/2010 at 17:20:25
Michael - can you e-mail a questionnaire to ToffeeWebbers please? One of the questions should ask how important the OS is to you for club information.
I'll be honest and say that I get more information on our match day forum - and a lot quicker - than I do on the OS!
49 Posted 04/11/2010 at 17:38:44
50 Posted 04/11/2010 at 18:34:03
I have had some of my opinions slated, rightly quite often, and have had cause to re- think some views . That is why this is the best fan site around.
51 Posted 04/11/2010 at 18:43:32
52 Posted 04/11/2010 at 18:46:32
He wouldn't put his website away when it was time for tea.
Seriously, this is the only website for the thinking Evertonian. About Tony Marsh,
I think Tony and Doddy are one and the same person. They, or he owns a house in the USA overlooking a motel.
"But mother even they could see I wouldn't even hurt a fly"
53 Posted 04/11/2010 at 19:01:38
Toffeeweb, is excellent for club news without the spin, and recent match reports notwithstanding, it's well written but when it comes to opinion, I'd rather converse with the nose pickers on day release from the local asuylum.
54 Posted 04/11/2010 at 20:48:54
And actually, I do get frustrated by fellow Toffeewebbers, and I do think there's more negativity than fits with my opinion, but so be it. As has been mentioned above, I wouldn't want to be on a site where everyone agreed with me, there'd be no point.
(Although Stephen (31), I do like a bit of pineapple on my pizza.)
55 Posted 04/11/2010 at 21:18:29
This is THE Everton site for any fan who wants to know what is going on and wants to engage in proper debates and, sometimes, in purile name calling too.
I got the Questionnaire from Everton the other day too. I ranked Toffeeweb as the best site and the Official site as the worst.
56 Posted 04/11/2010 at 22:08:50
NSNO applies to only one site, Michael I don't agree with some of what you write, but Its great to know that I can interact with fellow Everton fans. We are all different but ultimately all the same!
57 Posted 05/11/2010 at 00:16:08
The very fact that about 85% of us on here are moaney gets is part of the charm!
58 Posted 05/11/2010 at 00:21:25
If you just want to know who is playing today or what news there is about the team then thats what the official site gives you.
I like to think TW gives you the chance to ask questions, to debate in such a way that the official site will never do. Can you imagine any of the debates on TW taking place on that site?
Thats why TW is so good, it allows fans to debate. The quality can be fabulous or appalling but it allows expression of opinion in such a way that the club site hasn't / can't / won't.
59 Posted 05/11/2010 at 00:46:08
Kenwright in my opinion saved the club from the destruction of agent Johnson era. We have a manager who keeps us competitive despite our financial capabilities, but I'd take what we have over a Hicks & Gillett style management. I don't think Kenwright is holding on to club for personal glory or gain, but accept others have a different view.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I read what people have to say. For everyone who moans about Moyes or Kenwright there is someone who defends them. Healthy debate is the way forward.
If everyone just agreed and patted each other on the back it'd be a boring forum.
60 Posted 05/11/2010 at 12:12:34
61 Posted 05/11/2010 at 15:14:28
Chris (#19): Okay, I forgot one tendency: labelling opinion as abuse.
If it's an opinion of the manager that is held with conviction and that is bourne out all too often, how can such criticsm be labelled as abuse?
Personally I think calling it "unnatural and unjustified negativity" is ridiculous, but I should try to accept that perhaps this is your own way of rejecting the notions raised rather than daring to even consider the possibility that there may be some due basis for that opinion: I certainly know there is.
And that's the big challenge with these forums: viewpoints are so diverse that ? certainly in the veiew of those less tolerant or more narrow-minded ? one person's opinion is apparently another person's abuse?!?!
So here's a stretch for you: by drawing that line were you did... isn't what you are doing also abuse? I think it is.
62 Posted 05/11/2010 at 17:23:22
63 Posted 05/11/2010 at 17:09:34
It is a segment from (my favourite ever) standup comedian, the late George Carlin.
I post it not to persuade anyone of anything, but I am reminded of it each time someone confuses 'tone' with slagging.
Those who get it will get it, those who won't... um... won't.
By the way, anyone or anything that pisses off anyone on 606 or Sky or Merseyside/City phone-ins is fine by me.
George Carlin ? "In the first world war, the condition was called 'shell-shock'. Simple, honest, direct language. Two syllables, shell shock. Almost sounds like the guns themselves. That was 70 years ago.
"Then a whole generation went by and the Second World War came along and very same combat condition was called 'battle fatigue'. Four syllables now. Takes a little longer to say. Doesn't seem to hurt as much. Fatigue is a nicer word than shock. Shell shock! Battle fatigue.
"Then we had the war in Korea, 1950. Madison Avenue was riding high by that time, and the very same combat condition was called 'operational exhaustion'. Hey, were up to eight syllables now! And the humanity has been squeezed completely out of the phrase. It's totally sterile now. Operational exhaustion. Sounds like something that might happen to your car.
Then of course, came the war in Viet Nam, which has only been over for about 16 or 17 years, and thanks to the lies and deceits surrounding that war, I guess it's no surprise that the very same condition was called 'post-traumatic stress disorder'. Still eight syllables, but we've added a hyphen! And the pain is completely buried under jargon.
"Post-traumatic stress disorder. I'll bet you if we'd still been calling it shell shock, some of those Viet Nam veterans might have gotten the attention they needed at the time. I'll betcha. I'll betcha."
64 Posted 05/11/2010 at 19:58:39
Fuck Lance Armstrong!
65 Posted 06/11/2010 at 04:05:34
"Where ya goin' Grandpa?"
"I'm goin' upstairs to fuck your Grandma!"
TW is simply superb. Anyone who can't see that lives in a world where everyone holds hands and sings hymns of praise, flowers blooming all around...
I don't want to live in world where everyone agrees. I don't want to read propeganda. I don't like sterile environments.
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.