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Loyalty, good or bad?

Comments (30)

In an ideal world, loyalty is an admirable quality. A chairman who sticks with his manager through tough times deserves all the plaudits going. A coach who, despite being admired in the press and associated with many other high-profile jobs, signs a contract with a side with no money... Admirable indeed. A coach who sticks by what is in his mind, his best eleven through thick and thin... and who will ignore the mob and will pick players who are out of form in the belief that they will come good. Bloody admirable indeed... Or is it?

The loyalty between Kenwright and Moyes is totally understandable. Kenwright gets to be chairman of a club that is guaranteed Premier League football and Moyes gets the praise of his peers, the admiration of the press, and a huge salary.

It seems to me, however, that the loyalty of David Moyes to certain players goes well beyond what is healthy: Osman wide right ahead of Coleman went on too long; Neville, great captain but should be taking coaching badges. Misplaced loyalty will have an affect on the team long after his sell-by date. I like Tim Howard but what other goalkeeper in their right mind would be at Everton? There is not a hope in hell of Moyes reconsidering his loyalty to his goalkeeper.

I like Tim Cahill and believe he should be in the side at the moment. However, I believe he will start, due to blind loyalty, for as long as he draws breath. For Everton to move forward, Moyes must fear the sack and some of this woefully underperforming squad must fear the axe.
Andy Crooks, Belfast     Posted 13/11/2010 at 16:19:37

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Mike McLean
1   Posted 13/11/2010 at 18:01:47

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Andy, "... a club that is guaranteed Premier League football" is where your critics are going to get you.

To answer your question, loyalty is like tolerance. They sound splendid, but it all depends on what you're tolerating or who your being loyal to.

Goering didn't get many brownie points at his trial for being loyal to Hitler.
Lee Kidd
2   Posted 13/11/2010 at 18:09:42

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It's not loyalty exactly ? it's more a lack of lateral thinking from the manager. Moyes is set in his ways and plays football a certain way. We've looked a bit more fluid this term but, ultimately, we have no bite up top as the emphasis is on not losing ? rather than winning.

I don't rate Neville or Osman particularly hightly, but Neville in particular has been pretty good this year (as much as it pains me to say it). Problem is, he's prone to reverting to another six months of shocking football. When he does do that, he won't be dropped ? not necessarily because Moyes is loyal, but because he fits into the system Moyes resolutely wants to play. As long as Moyes is our manager, that's what will happen.
Tom Bowers
3   Posted 13/11/2010 at 19:43:34

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It's been an indifferent first 12 games with very little to shout about and much the same as last season. We are still only 2 points ahead of the relegation zone and tomorrow would be a great time to get 3 points... which is quite possible given Arsenal's recent form and the fact we almost beat them in the same fixture last season except for Van Persie's late late equaliser.

At the moment I would keep Pip at right back and Coleman on the right side. The problem is whether Pienaar is totally focussed on the Everton cause? He hasn't set the world alight so far this season and I may be inclined to put him on the bench and play someone who is going to give you an honest game without being distracted by some bigger contract in January.

I also believe that Moyes may also be in his last season, no matter what; he may have exhausted his plans to turn this team around as we never see anything new.

Mike Hughes
4   Posted 13/11/2010 at 19:48:33

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Loyalty - good or bad? It depends on the result as always. Sometimes things don't always work out immediately but can come good in the end.

Jagielka's first few starts for us a couple of years ago were terrible but he came good.

Misplaced loyalty right now might be Mikel's constantly crap corners. We know he'll come good in the end but we can't score right now and it would help if attacking set-pieces at least beat the first man.

Regarding your Cahill point, I believe he gives 100% every time even if he has the odd off-day, so it's not blind loyalty.

How loyal should the club be to Bily or Heitinga? It depends on results and I'm not sure they have the same redeeming qualities of Cahill.
Trevor Lynes
5   Posted 13/11/2010 at 20:03:33

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I agree with the comment about DM having the safest job in the Premier League and actually made the same point when he was baulking on a new contract. He cannot be blamed if our side fails as he has virtually no financial support and he constantly gets plaudits for his handling of a frankly mediocre team.

Now his contract is signed, he toes the company line over transfers (lack of incoming ones) and plays not to lose rather than to win. If he draws every game for the remainder of this season, he will probably finish about mid league... BK will be happy ? 'nuff said. The only people who will moan and fret will be the fans and only a really bad run will make our once great club stir itself and dole out some dosh!!

We do not have any players who will bring in 'BIG' money from transfers ? with the possible exception of one or two of the younger ones like Rodwell if he recovers form quickly after his injury. No matter what the fans think of their idols they are not top class and would not attract the top clubs except as squad numbers in emergency.

I look at our squad and see gaps where we have no adequate cover, eg, I shudder to think who would play in Baines's place if he were injured for any length of time.

When mention is made of giving 100% as if it is creditable, I find myself cringing... EVERY player should give 100% in every game and in my view the one who does this more often than most is Pienaar, and the defenders run him close.

I think our midfield is lacking in sufficient guile to make chances for our strikers; Arteta is playing far too deep and should be prompting our attacks rather than playing short, easy passes in our own half. If he wants to be a Scholes then we need someone else to carve out chances further upfield.

I wish we would drop the underachievers like Bily and even Heitinga into the reserves and put one or two youngsters in their place on the bench to see if they can 'cut it' in the Premier League.

Tony Cheek
6   Posted 13/11/2010 at 20:47:47

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Good post, Andy... a lot of hard-to-swallow facts there. Agree fully about the keeper's position and I am starting to wonder how good our second must be before given a chance, or, put another way, how many fluffs can Howard make before given a reminder he is in fact replacable?

He has cost us 5 points already this season... I say he should have a spell on the bench and let Mucha show us what he can do, because, let's face it, we are never going to be a serious challenger for anything while he is in goal. And yes, I do remember his penalty saves in the cup semis!!!

Tom Bowers
7   Posted 13/11/2010 at 21:19:41

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It's easy to blame the keeper for lost points. Yes if he goofs near the end of the game which proves costly or goofs regularly. However even Czech,Reina and company have been guilty of costly errors but the rest of the team have to do their job adequately too. We are looking for scapegoats because we are not winning but we have a good defense and it is the offensive weaknesses which are the main problem. It is too early to start writing Howard off just yet.
Jimmy Hacking
8   Posted 13/11/2010 at 21:24:03

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I don't agree with this post at all, sorry. Where was Moyes's sense of loyalty to Yobo? Carsley? Bilyaletdinov? Now he's made it clear that Saha and the Yak need to get their fingers out or they'll be warming the bench or playing for the reserves.

Moyes has always struck me as an honourable guy who respects modest, hard-working players such as Hibbo and Stubbs and Osman, but I highly doubt he is crazy enough to pick a player simply because he feels he owes something to them.

And please can we quit with this Howard-bashing? We have one of the best 6 or 7 keepers in England and all some people can do is complain.
Tony McNulty
9   Posted 13/11/2010 at 21:24:46

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Whether you like it or not, Moyes is loyal to players because he rates them. He believes he knows what they can do, and he considers that they perform for him.

Does anyone seriously think that the manager risks losing games because of some sort of misplaced or misguided loyalty to certain players? He picks the team for each game in order to maximise our chances of getting a result. We may not agree with his choices but loyalty hardly comes into it.
Ian Smitham
10   Posted 13/11/2010 at 21:36:30

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Tom (3 above) ? honest game?

Take it you did not witness the sheer volume of work he put in on Wednesday, especially compared to others with nice secure contracts.

Like the other comment about Cahill above ? whether players play well (ideal) or not, some simply refuse to give up or stop trying and though we are blessed with a few like that, Pienaar epitomises drive and enthusiasm, and to say otherwise is just unfair.

He may have a dispute with the club over his future but according to rumour he is by no means the highest paid player and to look at the attitude of some that are higher paid would cause me some concern if I were him.
Leon Perrin
11   Posted 13/11/2010 at 21:38:54

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Kenwright is out of his depth on so many levels and needs the protection a stable character like Moyes provides. Moyes is pedestrian, his "loyalty" is slowness; an aversion to make changes, to take a risk. Todays game is about moving players on and replacing them, wheeling and dealing, putting your balls on the line, generating funds, buying better than you've sold...

As Moyes is not under pressure, neither are his chosen players. Look at the games when players look like they can't be arsed, they know the score: he isn't going to do anything drastic, it's just not his style.

His slow and steady approach virtually guarantees mid-table, but is that what it's all about?
Dean Adams
12   Posted 13/11/2010 at 22:25:30

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Leon Perrin;

What the fuck is this: "His slow and steady approach virtually guarantees mid-table, but is that what it's all about?" ? Just when have we finished mid-table? These types of stupid comments are really based on some childish dream that we can somehow compete with the big money clubs. Get a fucking grip.

We have apparently punched above our weight for years. Sometimes I fail to understand the mentality of such pointless tripe. Most fans of lesser clubs would be overjoyed to achieve what we have.

We need to push on and that is the only problem I have with this current predicament. Moyes has changed our style to a more asthetically pleasing style this year and hopefully we will reap the benefits, Slow to make changes, yes, but with our limited budget it is not wholly suprising.

Dennis Stevens
13   Posted 13/11/2010 at 23:23:18

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Dean, we finish in mid-table mediocrity every season ? hadn't you noticed? We are neither the winners nor the losers, merely the also-rans.
Andy Crooks
14   Posted 13/11/2010 at 23:35:17

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Dean, of course fans of "lesser" clubs would be happy to achieve what we have. That's why they are lesser clubs.
Stephen Kenny
15   Posted 13/11/2010 at 23:42:15

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Perhaps this loyalty is part of the reason he gets so much from seemingly average players, ie, Phil Jagielka who was an ok player before he signed for us?
Leon Perrin
16   Posted 13/11/2010 at 23:22:01

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Dean

You pedantic dick.

I'll bet you'd argue unless you're exactly in the middle of the table you're not mid table.

"Lesser clubs" overjoyed at what we've done....mindless shite, what fuckin point are you trying to make there?

And if you think we should be on bended knee to clubs with more money what is the point?
Draw a rich list up and hand out the prizes before the season starts.

Then you have the fuckin cheek to concede my point about moyes being slow to make changes. If he could wheel and deal as I said he would'nt be so cash strapped.

Understand what you've read before you start posting, please.

Dean Adams
17   Posted 14/11/2010 at 00:29:35

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Andy Crooks

For me, every club is of lesser value, we are the best. Moyes may not be perfect, but he has made us a club to be respected; first level achieved. We need to push on and now he needs to make that step to prove that he has what it takes to put us back where we belong, that is Number 1. It won't happen overnight, but at least he has tried and for that I can feel proud to be an Evertonian, something, despite the FA Cup Win in 95, I rarely felt in the 90s.
Andy Crooks
18   Posted 14/11/2010 at 00:29:53

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Dean, let's have a reasonable discussion. You make a fair point that we are up against it financially. However, in my view, we are constantly under-achieving. At the start of the season, many Evertonians were predicting a Champions League place. I felt, and posted that these comments were, at best, a little optimistic. Still, there was a mood of optimism. I feel it is reasonable to debate what has gone wrong.
Dean Adams
19   Posted 14/11/2010 at 00:41:16

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Yeah, we failed to get going. My bet for us continuing our wonderful 24-year rule looks screwed and I wasted my money. As I rarely make a bet, I now feel let down by our overpaid players, or are they underpaid?

Personally I cannot justify the wage structures of modern football. I love my club and always make a point of seeking out fellow blues wherever I go. No matter what misconceptions any of us have, we all have a common allegiance.

Dean Adams
20   Posted 14/11/2010 at 00:51:16

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Andy Crooks

Can't argue with your post, it merely points out the frustrations of a club that has underachieved since the great days of the 80s. But the problem has changed in essence. We now have little hope of competing with the "rich" fellas.

It is great for me to see the brilliant and hilarious manager of Blackpool. I met him on a number of occasions when he was at Plymouth and Bristol and the guy has a fantastic attitude and approach that I would enjoy at EFC, but I know that such characters will be stifled by the referees and the big four, G14s of this world.

John Ford
21   Posted 14/11/2010 at 00:49:39

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How are we under-achieving? No-one, but no-one wins the league apart from one of three teams, and more recently two. Yep, we know filthy lucre is to blame. We aspire to that, but like everyone else we can't compete ? so even when we thought we'd do great things this season, we were actually talking about finishing fourth. Fourth is as good as it gets. Depressing... but ultimately it's the reality. This much we know.

Since the 04-05 'Champions League' season, when we started to raise our game, we have the single best league record of any team outside of the Sky Four. How is that under-achieving? It's a pisser that we can't make the jump to the next level but no-one else has made as good a crack at it as we have. Moyes has probably done it with less money than the other Sky wannabes. So that's why he gets the plaudits, cos pound for pound spent, Moyes gets more from Everton. We also play good football too.

We want more, lots more, but we're deluding ourselves if we think someone else is going to come in and do better... because ? FACT ? no-one else without the wads has come near breaking the Sky teams' monopoly.

Like everyone else, I await the day when some bored rich sort gives Moyes the chance to play with an even cheque book.
Dean Adams
22   Posted 14/11/2010 at 01:23:43

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John Ford

Touche. Right on the button.
Tony Cheek
23   Posted 14/11/2010 at 06:52:14

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John... the reason there is so much complaining is the fact that, yes, we have seen what a great squad DM assembled on a small budget, but what is he doing with it? It WILL NOT get better than this!! Is this really the best DM can do with this squad?

Just feel that Job One has been done, but now we need someone to take us further down the line. I know it's early days yet, and we may be pushing for it at the end, but how bleeding patient must an Everton fan be?

Norman Merrill
24   Posted 14/11/2010 at 09:01:21

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Today's game will show us if David Moyes has learned anything from our previous matches with the north London club. We have been on the end of some heavy defeats, last season we got a rude awakening on the opening day, but in the return game at the Emerites should have come away with all three points, with Pienaar scoring that fine goal after running half the length of the pitch.

We need to improve in our midfield as they run the show from there, and up front we must start finding the net, The crowd will have to play their part as well, but that all comes from how we perform, so let's hope Moyes has them fired up, and on Monday we may get some really interesting comments on here.
Sam Hoare
25   Posted 14/11/2010 at 10:10:45

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Agree with Dean and John.

Of course we would all like to be competing for the title but realistically the game has changed and money talks louder than ever before.

3rd or 4th would be an incredible achievement on our comparative resources and, to be honest, I wouldn't turn my nose up at 5th or 6th (which by the way I don't describe as mid-table mediocrity).

Yes, this season has been disappointing so far but does anyone else feel we have been a little unfortunate? Perhaps unclinical is more apt, but in the majority of our games we have dominated territory, shots on goal and particularly possession. In most games we seem to have between 60-70% of the ball. Hopefully it's just a matter of time before we work out how to turn finish the job in the final third.

Starting today would be nice!
Andy Crooks
26   Posted 14/11/2010 at 12:37:08

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John Ford, the teams above us in the league include West Brom, Stoke and Bolton. To me that suggests we are under-achieving.
Mark Stone
27   Posted 14/11/2010 at 13:34:38

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Andy, Phil Neville is doing his coaching badges: http://www.talksport.co.uk/sports-news/football/premier-league/1663/1/everton-ace-neville-reveals-managerial-ambition. As you say great captain, as such deserves top be in the side. Don't get your point.
Mark Stone
28   Posted 14/11/2010 at 13:38:20

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Norman, you say "Today's game will show us if David Moyes has learned anything from our previous matches with the north London club."

Like what, and what should we be looking out for?

Also, didn't the away game last season (that you go on to talk about)show that he'd learnt something? Or, more likely - and in all probability like today - was it just a representation of how the two teams performed on the particular day?
Derek Thomas
29   Posted 15/11/2010 at 08:54:44

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Move with the times...aka DO IT MY WAY.

See it from the other point of view...aka DO IT MY FUCKIN WAY.

Deal with the world how it is, not how you want it to be...aka DO IT MY WAY.

Wake up and smell the what ever...aka DO IT MY FUCKIN WAY.

Loyalty, shmolalty.

What about MY Loyalty??
Anthony Hughes
30   Posted 15/11/2010 at 13:48:10

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I think with our much vaunted "best squad in 20+ years", three wins out of thirteen league games and an embarrassing cup exit to Brentford is without doubt under-achieving this season so far.

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