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Referee paranoia

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First off, great result last night, subs etc, Moyes got it bang on.

What I want to talk about, is this paranoia some of our fans have in regards to referees. Walton got slated last night, someone mentioned he gave us fuck all, all night???

I watched the game again this morning, and when they analysed the game afterwards, the 3 penalty shouts city had, were all bang on pens ? if the tables are turned, I'm screaming for pens all day. The Hibbert one, I would have forgiven the ref for, because Jo was in the refs line of vision, but if Hibbert doesn't handle it, it's going in. Neville's 2, bang on pens.

Anichebe had to go, the first yellow was a bit harsh, even though he does barge Hart over. But the second was a late tackle, so was worthy of a yellow, so he had to go.

If those crucial penalty decisions go against us, I would be the first on here calling the ref a cheating bastard, but for some to say he never gave us fuck all, it just ridiclious.

We have had our fair share of decisions go our way, it's swings and roundabouts: some you get, some you don't.

Chelsea away, Coleman's tackle on Cole: penalty. Distin's handball in that game, easily could have been given, but no-one mentioned those decisions, maybe it was because they went for us?

Stoke at home, we got the decision, even though Baines is falling over before the lad goes anywhere near him, and that wins us the game.

We had some on here the other week, slating the ref off for giving Fellaini his marching orders, even though he blatantly kicked out.

Sometimes you just need to take those blue tinted specs off, and realise the whole world hasn't got it in for us.

Let's hope last nights win kick starts our season, finally.
Brian Waring, Wokingham     Posted 21/12/2010 at 13:02:20

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Anthony Hughes
1   Posted 21/12/2010 at 14:37:06

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First off, an excellent defensive display last night to hold onto our lead. As for the referees, I totally agree Brian ? we were fortunate last night with the decisions and as many that we have go against this season we have also had our share of luck. Again though, well done to the boys, I thought Distin was superb although they all defended really well.
Karl Jones
2   Posted 21/12/2010 at 14:39:16

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Brian, overall, I thought the referee was fair to both sides.

I disagree with you (and Andy Gray!) over the pen decisions though. The ball deflected off Jo's arm onto Hibbert's if anything and the PN two were ball to hand. The ball was blasted towards him both times. It looks different when slowed down though. That's were Sky get it all wrong.

Chris Keightley
3   Posted 21/12/2010 at 14:42:30

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Bang on, Brian ? I agree with what you say, we should have had at least one go against us last night, Nev's second was cast iron in my opinion.

We rode our luck a little but that's football ? last night the footballing gods smiled on us; sometimes it rains.
Jay Harris
4   Posted 21/12/2010 at 14:53:55

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Have to agree with Karl.

There was not a deliberate handball all night apart from a city defender (can't remember who) catching it in his arms and then getting a free kick for the challenge.

Thought Walton had a decent game, missed some stuff, was a bit harsh on Anichebe's first challenge for a yellow but mainly let the game flow.

I really dont know where 4 minutes came from though.

I think referees are adding more and more time on to appease the Sky darlings.
James Cadwaladr
5   Posted 21/12/2010 at 15:21:24

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My friend is a Man City fan and he has been giving it loads today. It would appear they have a bigger complex and one of their fan sites goes as far to say corrupt refereeing ? this their problem.

http://thisisourcitymanchester.blogspot.com/2010/12/cheating-everton-verdict-still-in-top.html

Funny that, I thought there problems were down to being a bunch of prima donnas.

Read the link, blames the referee, and Everton for cheating rather than getting their own house in order.

Money can buy you as many quality players as you want but it won't buy class or dignity.

COYB!
KPR Williams
6   Posted 21/12/2010 at 15:21:25

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Interesting piece on the handball rule...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/rules_and_equipment/4524354.stm

'especially when hit at pace'

I wouldn't say any instance last night involved one of our players sticking out a hand with the intention of blocking the ball would you?

Ray Robinson
7   Posted 21/12/2010 at 15:26:55

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I realise that I'll be hung out to dry here but I think most referees do a good job given that they have one angle and opportunity to view an incident. Too often, teams and managers use the referee to camouflage their own shortcomings. I thought Walton had a resonable game to be honest and the only two decisions that he got obviously wrong were the first Anichebe card and a corner that he didn't give to City. Otherwise, we certainly couldn't complain.

Jay, as for the 4 minutes, I was expecting 5 or 6! There had been numerous stoppages for the sponge-man and 5 (or was it 6?) substitutions. Again, no complaints.
Bob McEvoy
8   Posted 21/12/2010 at 15:29:48

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Thought we were lucky with the first PN one. My take was that he leaned into the ball and thus it could have been regarded as deliberate ..but given ref has only got a split second he gave Pip the benefit. The other two just smacked into PN and TH and were not deliberate.

The problem is pundits and players don't know the rules. Statements like "it was going in" So what. The hand and arms are appendages that in football terms are only illegal if used deliberately... or did someone change the rules when I wasn't looking.

Yea, penalty shouts notwithstanding, we got a bit lucky last night. About fucking time. COYB

Tony J Williams
9   Posted 21/12/2010 at 15:14:55

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He also allowed Fellaini to stay on the pitch when tackles like the one on Tevez (although he never actually touched him) have been straight reds...he also did the exact same tackle in the second half.

It looked like Jo handled the ball not Hibbert when I first saw it in normal time, the ref probably thought so too.

Neville, ball blasted at him, arms by his side, would have been harsh but they have been given before, the secong one on the elbow could have been given again but to be honest if it hadn't of hit his arm it would have hit his torso so that's probably why the ref didn't give it.

Anichebe could have been booked before the first so it evened itself out because the first yellow was farcical. he jumped and turned his back, I thought a foul had to have some element of intent?

Crap game, good result so onwards to the boring Brum game in the freezing cold of Goodison.
Ken Buckley
10   Posted 21/12/2010 at 15:52:24

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I think the ref must have had a good game as both sets of fans were adament he favoured the other team.
Brian Lawlor
11   Posted 21/12/2010 at 16:17:32

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Changing the subject slightly, while watching the game last night, I couldn't but help feel embarassed for those prima donnas wearing snoods. They should be ashamed and if I was a manager I wouldn't allow it. 6 city players wore them and 7 wore glooves. As you would expect, none of our boys wore them and only one of ours wore gloves ? the big lump who got himself sent off!
Helikaon Bow
12   Posted 21/12/2010 at 16:21:34

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Brian, most of our boys wore short sleeves! now that is hard core in -6 tempertures :-)
Tony J Williams
13   Posted 21/12/2010 at 16:22:02

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Pip was actually wearing gloves in the first half until he messed up a throw-in.
Tony J Williams
14   Posted 21/12/2010 at 16:31:10

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Nothing new there though
Tony Waring
15   Posted 21/12/2010 at 15:59:45

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If Neville had managed to get out of the way of the "penalty" shots he'd still be in orbit. Definitely ball to arm (not hand). I agree with the general consensus that the ref had a good game and my only complaint is that after showing City how the game should be played in the first 30 minutes or so, we then shut up shop and began hoofing the ball. All in all a great night with some sterling performances.
Tony J Williams
16   Posted 21/12/2010 at 16:42:06

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Helikaon that's because we couldn't afford the extra material for long sleeves
Jeff Magee
17   Posted 21/12/2010 at 17:17:09

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Could someone explain the 'foul' that the Fellaini is supposed to have done? This is a genuine query ? is it illegal to control the ball with your sole (or studs)?

From behind my blue tinted glasses, the Big Fella went for the ball and nothing else ? his foot was low (as it had to be to get the ball); no question of going over the top, which I accept is dangerous and should be penalised. Tevez was coming in from the other side (and from what I could see was not touched ? he should have been booked for simulation). So I don't understand the commentators and some on here slating him ? or is it just his reputation?

Ken Williams
18   Posted 21/12/2010 at 17:43:26

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Surely Balotteli should have had a yellow (or red) for the challenge on Jags ? foot up, studs in the side, I thought was one of the worse offences all night. At least Fellaini went for the ball, and yet not a mention by the Sky commentators, but they harped on and on about Fellaini...are City the new Sky darlings???
Brian Waring
19   Posted 21/12/2010 at 17:41:00

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Jeff, agree with you on the Fellaini yellow, it seems you can't tackle anymore.

I think some of us will have to agree to disagree on the penalties because, after such a great result, I don't want it to turn into a big arguement.

It will be interesting to see though, what the reaction will be like on here, if we have an appeal for a penalty turned down, like one of those from last night.
Rahman Talib
20   Posted 21/12/2010 at 18:13:51

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I think the yellow on Fellani was STUPID. I think Neville and Hibbert didn't commit handballs. I think the first yellow card on Anichebe was stupid. And i think the City players got away with a lot of yellow cards.
Thor Sørensen
21   Posted 21/12/2010 at 18:27:04

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Regarding the Balotelli studs in the side of Jagielka-situation.

Why didn't Jags stay down a bit? I'm not suggesting our players should "simulate" injury, but under the circumstances and after such a heavy challenge I really don't understand the point in getting to your feet in such a hurry.
His game was clearly affected by the challenge in the next few minutes.
Jamie Tulacz
22   Posted 21/12/2010 at 19:52:14

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Blimey that City website- talk about bitter or what!! Brilliant, and what made it even better was that Lescott can't even get on the bench for them now.

Have to say that the Fella yellow card was ridiculous- seems like you're not allowed to tackle for the ball now. He won the ball fairly on both tackles and yet gets penalised both times.

On the whole would have to say that most refs do decent jobs generally and are not helped by the idiots they are refereeing for.
Jon Cox
23   Posted 21/12/2010 at 20:02:11

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Wow the ref had a good game?

I have not seen for a long time, a bunch of prima donna kebabs falling, moaning ,complaining every time an Everton player got to close or put in a justified tackle.

Their goalie Hart knew that there was no problem (all credit to him, like Neville last week) and was just a case of momentum when Anichebe came thundering in. Where was the foul? Why the yellow card?

It's either a contact sport or it isn't. No, I thought the ref last night was a pure Homer, with Bart and Lisa holding flags on the sidelines.

If football isn't corrupt then why did FIFA change the play off rules for the world cup qualifiers, which went from anybody can be drawn against anybody else to, we better seed the teams because France and Germany may have to play each other.

Strange that, but never mind.

We played good last night but the superb football we played in the first twenty minutes should have been played for the rest of the game. In that respect it wasn't good enough. It's a mindset and our mindset and template for games is; once we go one up or two up we have to defend our lead. Why? Why cant we just keep playing a game were we just want to score even after we've scored two?

This is the fingerprint of our manager. It's his psyche. It's transmitted and no-one seems to want to say bollox boss it's just a game of football and we are as good as them.

Until we get this attitude we are not going to be "winners." I'm waiting for the hangman, Pierpoint, but the truth hurts. We may have a winning mentality with teams at the top who have to allow us to play football but there are more teams in the league than them.

THIS is our problem. And until Moyes gets his head around this then we'll always be close but no cigar.

COYB

Tim Welsh
24   Posted 21/12/2010 at 20:45:26

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If they were penalties, then maybe it is payback for all the times that City have not been penalised against us...Richard Dunne, Micah Richards even going back to Tommy Caton. It evens out over three decades...
For the first time this season we have had some luck....so sit back and enjoy it with a big smug yuletide grin.
I have been reading these fora lately and it strikes me that there are too many miserable purists...let's get back to winning regularly, then worry about the quality.

Happy Christmas one and all
Charlie Percival
25   Posted 21/12/2010 at 20:56:00

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Has no-one noticed the passback? Can someone clarify if a player KNEES the ball in the air and his goal keeper catches it, is this a passback?
Jon Cox
26   Posted 21/12/2010 at 21:16:26

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Tim I'm in. Happy Christmas to you too. And not forgeting "the family"

By the way Eugene, "stop breaking my balls" Ha Ha Or should I call you Pauly
Jon Cox
27   Posted 21/12/2010 at 21:20:37

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Charlie, No because refs are taught that this is a valid move in the art of synchronised swimming. Which is what football is becomming, according to the BBC
Tony J Williams
28   Posted 21/12/2010 at 21:24:36

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Jeff, Brian I thought there was nothing wrong with the Fellaini tackle (more play acting from the caveman though) but of late the studs showing challenge has been one where the refs have jumped on the bandwagon for giving reds.

Jon it's all well and good saying we should keep playing the same, the only problem is that the opposition change their style of play so what was working previously may not work against their new formation/tactics
Stewart Oakes
29   Posted 21/12/2010 at 21:21:07

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The first Anichebe yellow was down to the linesman as the ref had his back to the incident watching the ball. The Fella yellow card was nothing short of a joke.
Christine Foster
30   Posted 21/12/2010 at 21:32:47

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Charlie, the ball was played with the leg back to the keeper, thats a backpass, clear and simple, unless FIFA have dictated that a leg only exists below the knee .. the officials bottled that one.

I went on that City site, good god and people complain about TW!!! Makes this site seem very stiff upper lip British by comparison. Sour, bitter, uneducated morons who give football a bad name. Probably think that a good game is followed by a good punch up.. they really are a club that never got out of the seventies.
Its supporters have what they deserve, what was that comment about their team? " A bunch of highly paid strangers..."
Christine Foster
31   Posted 21/12/2010 at 21:41:05

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Fellaini's card says it all about football in the Premier League. No intimidation, no contact, no passion.

Fellaini's foot blocked the ball, nothing else, not high, no contact with the other player whatsoever.

There was no foot up, studs up and over the ball. If you wanted to, have a look at ANY challenge and you could claim a foul ? at least you can in the Premier League.
Christine Foster
32   Posted 21/12/2010 at 21:46:44

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Stoods??? I really need to have a cup of tea...
Charlie Percival
33   Posted 21/12/2010 at 21:46:16

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JC 27 & CF 30 - just as I anticipated.

One rule for the rest of the league, another for us as usual.

Fellaini made a fantastic challenge wich i didnt even think was a freekick let alone a booking. Teves rolled around like a baby. Ref booked fellaini as usual which meant he had to be careful rest of game. That affected us. It always does. These refs piss me off. Im not being sexist but get some Women reffing, at least if they make shite decisions we can admire other features about them. They cant do any worse than the roster of crap we have in this league.

I thought the David Ellery Era was over, it seems it was the start.
Martin Faulkner
34   Posted 21/12/2010 at 21:36:39

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Charlie #25
It's only a passback if you use your foot. Thigh, Chest, Arse, Head etc are all legal, shin is grey area.
Handball must also be deliberate, as in hand to ball, not the other way around. None of them were penalties.
Big Vic's was a foul but not booking vs Hart. however what is happening more and more with the top teams and now shitty aswell is the deliberate foul. This should be an immediate booking, I think the ref last night booked Toure for his first yellow but missed a few others. This type of foul is perpetrated by a lot of top teams to slow opposition momentum and regroup, it's generally a soft foul but done cleverly. Ref's reall need to get on top of this, I think Kompany was guilty of it as well as a few others.
Christine Foster
35   Posted 21/12/2010 at 22:44:33

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Martin, here is a referees answer to the pass back rule:

Question:
In a soccer game a player deliberately used his knee to pass the ball to the goalkeeper. The goalkeeper then picked the ball up with his hands. Does this count as a pass-back to the keeper?

What part of the body can a player use to send the ball to his/her goalkeeper and have the keeper pick it up with his/her hands? Or maybe I should ask what part of the body can?t a player use to pass the ball to the keeper if the keeper intends to pick it up?

USSF answer (November 12, 2010):
The Law is pretty clear. See the back of the Law book 2010/2011, Interpretations, Cautions for unsporting behavior:

? uses a deliberate trick while the ball is in play to pass the ball to his own goalkeeper with his head, chest, knee, etc. in order to circumvent the Law, irrespective of whether the goalkeeper touches the ball with his hands or not. The offense is committed by the player in attempting to circumvent both the letter and the spirit of law 12 and play is restarted with an indirect free kick

Even with that information, we would be remiss if we did not point out that, subject to the terms of Law 12, a player MAY pass the ball to his (or her) own goalkeeper using his head or chest or knee, etc., if he does NOT use trickery. Furthermore, just to lock it down tightly, for the misconduct offense to be called the referee must decide that the action was done to circumvent the Law. Merely observing that the ball was played from foot to head is not enough, even if the ball subsequently goes to or toward the GK. Because we are dealing with misconduct here (the ?trickery?) and not the foul commonly referred to as ?pass back to the ?keeper,? we are required to evaluate the intentions of the defender.

In such circumstances, it is irrelevant whether the goalkeeper subsequently touches the ball with his hands or not. The offense is committed by the player in attempting to circumvent both the letter and the spirit of Law 12.


So who is right? the law says you can, but is meant as unintentional, without trickery.. so.. does control and direction with a leg not count??
Jon Cox
36   Posted 21/12/2010 at 23:03:30

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Charlie P, I prefere Spept's tight kit as it goes. Having said that Sept is the reason that England should bring back the 'death pen. This guy is an utter and complete gutter snipe.

Christine, totaly right about fella's tackle.

No matter what from ten mins before the first half ended to the whole of the second WE WERE SHIT.

Once we work out why then we'll take the league by storm.

Over to you Davey!
Tom Bowers
37   Posted 21/12/2010 at 23:29:48

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Much as I disagree with the ref's viewing of Fellaini's tackles I have to say that the big fella still has to learn the art. He is a targetted player these days and although he is getting the ball his studs are still showing a little and players like Tevez, Drogba and Diouff will always make the most of it to con the weaker referees. We don't want to lose him again as he is starting to show how good he is in other areas.
Jon Cox
38   Posted 21/12/2010 at 23:36:51

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Tom,good comment but we as the fans have to make the refs know somehow that WE are watching and we know the rules of football.

Also in this techno age, we need to let them know personaly !!
Martin Faulkner
39   Posted 22/12/2010 at 09:28:31

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Christine, After the long winded cut and paste job, what is your stance exactly?

As far as I'm concerned (having played to a relatively high amateur level, both before and after the rule came into effect) chesting, heading and kneeing the ball back to the keeper are all deemed acceptable by referees. Do you see it differently? I fail to see your interpretation of lawyer-speak as posted by USSF.

Martin Faulkner
40   Posted 22/12/2010 at 10:10:20

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As far as I see it, Thigh, Chest, Head, Arse are all acceptable in today's game, only saw 1 guy protesting the passback and he obviously needs to consult current norms. The law says a deliberate foul is a bookable offence but that rarely gets imposed, same as taking the throw-in from where it went out, feigning injury and simulation.
Mark Murphy
41   Posted 22/12/2010 at 10:07:57

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Tony, you watched a "crap game"?
Not the game I saw - even as a nervous Blue I thought it was a cracking match and for the neutral it was a belter!

Jon Cox, we were not SHIT!
We defended heroically a two goal lead against a very strong attacking team with aspirations of going top in their own back yard and kept them to long range shots from the middle of the pitch. You're being very harsh on the players and the coach there!
Mike Allison
42   Posted 23/12/2010 at 18:25:08

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None of them were penalties. I don't think the Hibbert one even hit his arm, you can see the shirt ripple on his side from the impact.

Balotelli should have been sent off, he jumped with his studs deliberately six foot high and kicked Jagielka in the side. Fellaini gets booked for taking his foot off the ground in a tackle, his yellow card was ridiculous. Refs, and opposition players and fans (as well as commentators and pundits) have really got it in for Fellaini. If our own fans are buying the shit and thinking his standard block tackle is a problem then Moyes needs to come out and do some media minds games stuff of the type that Wenger/Mourinho pulled on Andy Johnson.

As for the Chelsea game, the penalty that gave them the lead was ridiculous, so to point out the Coleman one is a bit odd.
Mike Allison
43   Posted 23/12/2010 at 18:29:12

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It wasn't a back-pass. You're allowed to use your knee/thigh as long as the ball was naturally in the air at that height.

What you can't do is flick the ball off the ground to knee, chest or head it back.

The City defender brought a high ball down with his knee, then left it for his goalkeeper. I'm all for moaning about refs, but I think we've got to let this one go.

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