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Shane Duffy

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It seems that an unfit Jagielka is better than Shane Duffy.

I sung the praises of Seamus Coleman long and hard on this site. Not because he's Irish but because I saw him play and knew he was quality.

I've done the same with Shane. Believe me, this lad will be a star. It is beyond belief to me that he sits on the bench while Moyes picks unfit players. I haven't seen lads like Baxter etc, so I don't know what they are like.

However, in my view, Moyes would rather play anyone out of position (fucking Hibbert at centre-back) than give youth a chance. Shane Duffy is the best centre-back at Goodison Park. Believe.


Andy Crooks, Belfast     Posted 03/01/2011 at 23:47:44

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Christopher McCullough
1   Posted 04/01/2011 at 03:35:39

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Andy, I knew this would be you before I clicked into the thread haha.

I was very disappointed with the team against West Ham. It's good to hear that Duffy could be a good'n as I've only seen him play once; for Everton in Europe.

He's certainly taller than Hibbert.
Steven Pendleton
2   Posted 04/01/2011 at 06:17:25

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Agree wholeheartedly. What was there to lose by giving the youngster a crack. Just have to look at how Coleman has developed by playing in the first team regularly.

Hibbert and now an injured Jagielka were on a hiding to nothing and were only trying to help the team.Moyes should not have put them in that position in the first place.

And why the fuck is Yobo still away. Can we recall him back?
Rob Teo
3   Posted 04/01/2011 at 07:58:35

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I agree wholeheartedly that Duffy should've been selected to play in place of Jalgieka (Stoke) and Hibbert (West Ham).

What's the point of having him (and a host of other players, for that matter) in the squad or bench if, when the time comes and he's the only fit central defender left, a right-back is played in that position instead? Moyes may as well offload him now because if he doesn't use him under such a circumstance, then he probably won't use him when the other central defenders are fit. (Seriously, why keep him as a squad player if Moyes isn't going to play him no matter what? And if Moyes deems he's not up to premier leagues tandards, why keep him at all?)

Also, to me, the episode highlights the difference between Moyes and a great manager like SAF in that SAF has the knowledge and balls to drop his star player if he felt it meant putting out a stronger team (i.e. dropping Berbatov against Arsenal a week after he had scored 5 goals), while Moyes only knows and dares to play his strongest team *on paper* without considering actual on-the-field factors (eg. nature of the opposition, injuries, loss of form, correct position, etc).

The tragic irony is that what he thinks is his "strongest team" has repeatedly been shown to be piss-weak this season.
Trevor Lynes
4   Posted 04/01/2011 at 08:17:32

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Quite obvious to me is ...we do not have any of our youngsters good enough to push for a place in the first team....all these players must be seen regularly by the coaches and Im sure that if they were any good they would be in the team...only Coleman and Rodwell have made their presence felt and neither of them are exactly world class.
The tragic irony is A FACT Im afraid.
Antony Matthews
5   Posted 04/01/2011 at 08:24:33

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Moyes will only give the young ones a sniff of first team action when results and perfomances improve, unless we have an injury list as long as BK's waistline.
Gavin Ramejkis
6   Posted 04/01/2011 at 08:32:14

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Trevor, I would have thought that some time ago, but look at Coleman on the wing and how long it took Moyes to bother his stubborn arse to play him there preferring Osman and others; it took at least three months. Arteta can't beat the first man from any set piece yet still takes them. The only way I can see Duffy getting a game is if Jagielka, Hibbert, Neville and Heitinga are all literally crippled. If nothing else Moyes is one stubborn bastard you could read like a book and see all of the above getting the nod before Duffy no matter what.
James Stewart
7   Posted 04/01/2011 at 09:46:12

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Spot on, as usual, Gavin. Moyes only turns to youth if there is no other option available.
Nick Entwistle
8   Posted 04/01/2011 at 10:13:22

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This type of thread pops up a couple of times a year on young players Moyes should be picking, and they normally end up way down the divisions.

I don't know anything about Duffy, but Moyes has shown he knows best on this time and again.

Oliver Molloy
9   Posted 04/01/2011 at 10:30:13

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Sorry everyone,don't agree i don't believe Moyes would leave Duffy on the bench if he thought he was up for it.
I have a friend who knows Shane's Father quite well and he told me that last year moyes told Duffy's Father his son was going to be "a top class centre half-but had a way to go before he would have a first team opportunity"
Being on the bench is all part of the process of slowly nurturing the player into the 1st team and how it all works,the experiences etc etc.
Mike Gwyer
10   Posted 04/01/2011 at 10:54:11

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Andy.

Do you not think that Moyes would pick Duffy if he was as good and experienced as you seem to think? Moyes trains with them on a daily basis, works with them week in week out, speaks with the medical team on a daily basis and then picks the team.

Or did you think that Moyes has a huge fucking giggle when picking the team?



Dick Fearon
11   Posted 04/01/2011 at 11:08:23

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Trevor #4, You are making a mistake by placing any weight on our coaches judgement.
On another thread I listed basic weaknesses in each players tecniquie.
Jag a closet hoofer, Hibbo & Neville's dire passing, Artetas lousy free kicks, Osman and Bily's lack of speed, Pienaars shooting, Beckfords poor first touch, Yaks fitness.
Coaches who are incapable of bringing about even the slightest improvement in such glaring weaknesses would be the last people I would look to for advice on anything.
Guy Wilkinson
12   Posted 04/01/2011 at 11:17:34

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Trevor @ 4 . That is AN OPINION I'm afraid.

We have conservative manager who is afraid of failure. He gives young players limited playing time. This may be to shield them from criticism - note how Coleman was sheltered back in the reserves after played out of position in the Europa hammering.

Agree Rodwell isn't world class, but the only way to develop him is to play him. SAF is looking at him as the replacement for Rio Ferdinand whose back is shagged. He sees a talent that needs nurturing and developing.
Fran Mitchell
13   Posted 04/01/2011 at 11:33:58

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It's easy to say, "Moyes trains with them, so what do we know?"

But then that means we should never contradict any decision he makes, as he will always know more about personal issues, fitness, training, attitude etc. But the issue is, we a playing poorly. So now we start to question.

On Duffy, I have never seen him play but have heard good things. He suffered a terrible injury which could hamper his development or mental strength for the quick step-up. However it could also help him, over-coming such a daunting experience as he did could make the idea of playing in the Premier League much less scary. All depends on his personal character, which I know nothing of.

However, look at Rodwell and Coleman. Both seemed too good for the reserves, and too good to be shipped out on loan. But at the same time Moyes refused to give them more than 5/10 minutes here and there (centre-backs don't get this opportunity like midfielders). An injury crisis in both circumstances (can also include Gosling) and these players proved themselves to be up to it. Now Moyes knows they are up to it, he will play them.

It appears Moyes is scared of playing youth, he seems to require absolute certainty that they are up to a certain level of performance. For people like Duffy, I'm afraid its a bit of a catch-22 situation. Moyes will only play him when he is sure he got the experience, but by never playing him he will never get that experience.

It shows an overall lack of risk taking by Moyes, which is ridiculous when you consider our current form. You can't argue with a winning formula, but one that is struggling so desperatly, that you can argue against.

Gavin Ramejkis
14   Posted 04/01/2011 at 11:39:04

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Mike #10, DM has admitted to choosing Jagielka against Stoke despite him carrying an injury thus ignoring the medical staff and it cost us the game. Dm if anything listens to Radio Moyes in his own head before and after anything anyone else says.
Aidy Dews
15   Posted 04/01/2011 at 12:50:36

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I can't understand why he wasn't given a chance at either West Ham or Stoke. We might've been even stronger at the back with a recognised CB in there instead of using an RB and an injured CB. It is dangerous playing Jags with an injury like that, Moyesy should know better, you don't risk a player sustaining serious injuries for the sake of having a bit of height in your defence!

Back to Duffy, though, he is still raw but he as got all the tools to be a good CB... how good, I don't know but I think he'll have some sort of career at Everton but he should've been given a go at Stoke at least, what harm would it of done? It might've been the making of him, you never know... but Moyes needs to either give these youngsters a chance or do what the likes of Sir Alex Ferguson, Wenger and Redknapp do: send them out on loan and get them game time that way, and see how they get on. He knows what it did for Coleman, so who's to say something similar can't happen to the others?

I'm surprised Duffy didn't get a chance cos I remember Moyes saying after the Tottenham game at White Hart Lane this season that he was very tempted to put on Duffy at half-time in that game to deal with Crouch as Duffy is really strong in the air so I'm sure those attributes would've come in handy against Stoke.
Frank Duffy
16   Posted 04/01/2011 at 12:38:55

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If all these young players are so poor why are they on the bench? They could do no worse then some of Moyes 'favourites'.
I am giving up of seeing any exciting football at Goodison.

How can Moyes come out and say he played an injured player rather than a young centre half.

We have had no pace in the side for years yet he is reportedly after another Centre half. For fuck sake lets give Baxter, Duffy, Vaughan a chance, before its too late.

Hey spotted Kenright on the Sky Vintage Music Channel. Maybe that is now his new toy??
Aiden Jones
17   Posted 04/01/2011 at 13:14:26

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Dick - maybe the coaches have tried to improve/work on the various lack of skills you mention. Perhaps the players do not have the ability to improve.
Chris Perry
18   Posted 04/01/2011 at 13:28:06

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Moyes is tactically a liability, fully incompetent. I have stopped going to the games and don't even watch them on TV anymore, it's oh so predicatable.

The reasons Moyes must go were evident in the following games in which we should have got more than we did:

Blackburn... Aston Villa Game... Newcastle... Wolves... West Brom... Bolton...Stoke...

His best ever squad ? bullshit; even more worrying, he doesn't know where to play them to get the best out of them.
Trevor Lynes
19   Posted 04/01/2011 at 13:23:23

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Some of these so called 'kids' are no longer youngsters....I agree that DM is loath to change things until it is virtually forced on him..eg; Rooney was really nursed, Baines had to wait for a regular slot and Coleman is a success so far.....BUT, our supposed kids are doing nothing results wise when playing for the reserves or academy....Baxter has not trained on and the youngsters have poor goal scoring records too.
Our coaching staff must be pretty poor and our scouts are finding no one.
We really need to clear out from top to bottom of the backroom staff.
Year after year we empty out our academy kids and sometimes embarrassingly buy them back eg; Jags and Baines....these players were improved elsewhere so why cant we do the improving ?? Jags and Baines cost us good money and we got nothing for Gosling.....this is throwing assets away through poor judgement.
I reckon Jags is a top class defender and attracted good money from Arsenal....Baines is probably the only other player in our first team on present form who would command a large fee.
We do not have one of the best squads in the premiership in my opinion.
We are disgustingly looking to borrow players like Santa Cruz and Owen who have hardly kicked a ball and that really infuriates me.
We have no real ambition at all as a club and are just hoping for survival.
Almost every other team in the league and some in the championship seem to have some sort of budget to buy players but we are the f.....g Primark shoppers, or big issue sellers.
I have supported EFC since 1948 and am sick to death of the present shambles.
Even when we got relegated back in 1950 we had some money to spend.
David Holroyd
20   Posted 04/01/2011 at 13:54:30

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It will be the same old faces against Spurs. You can bet old 'Arry will come to Goodison thinking, "If we get one early goal that will be enough to beat Everton". Spurs are full of pacy attacking players; we aren't even picking players in their right positions...
Dave Bruce
21   Posted 04/01/2011 at 14:25:55

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Best Centre back????

Give me a break! I've only seen the lad once, I can't remember the game but he didn't look very confident. I defo wouldn't trust him to face the Cockney onslaught coming our way.
Mike Gwyer
22   Posted 04/01/2011 at 14:57:43

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Gavin #14.

To be honest, playing football manager is boring and unproductive, anyway the rumours I'm hearing is that Moyes is looking at an additional CB this transfer window, so whatever greatness Duffy has (in certain peoples eyes) - Moyes ain't seeing it.

Going forward, I just want a win tomorrow and I don't care if the queen plays at the back. I just want a win.



James Royston
23   Posted 04/01/2011 at 14:59:02

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I saw him at the recent reserves Derby. (Moyes was there by the way). He was by far the outstanding defender, Is he good & strong enough for Prem ? not sure, how do we find out ? Only one way "play the lad" I think he may get a game in the cup this weekend. If we are looking at others Turner looked good in goal but again does not seem to be rated, (and I do not have great confidence in Howard) Baxter also looked worth a try..The rest ? very big Question marks... P.S. Anichibe was his usual arogant stumbling lazy self & even got himself booked in that one.
Anthony Hughes
24   Posted 04/01/2011 at 15:10:33

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We have a decent centre back out on loan. If we do bring a centre half in, are the ones we can afford really going to be much better than Yobo? As for Duffy, unless he gets a game we're never going to know how good or bad he is.
Shaun Brennan
25   Posted 04/01/2011 at 15:24:05

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Well, it has now been confirmed that Jags is going to be out of tomorrow night's game as well as Saturday's. So Moyes has a decision to make. I feel that the Spurs game may be too much of a match to start young Duffy in. So I can expect to see Hibbert or Neville playing there.
Ben Jones
26   Posted 04/01/2011 at 15:24:02

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Whatever the problem is with Duffy, whether he is not ready for the first teamer... fact is Duffy is a natural centre half and Hibbert isn't. It's criminal when we see Hibbert play central defence and Duffy isn't. Absolutely criminal.

What is it with Moyes? Great manager but does things which do not make any sense. This is one of them.
Dave Wilson
27   Posted 04/01/2011 at 15:35:54

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I have to say I too knew who had penned this article as soon as I read the title.

I havent seen enough of Duffy to offer a opinion of him, but I took close interest in the teams people were putting forward to face Birmingham (prior to postponment) and West Ham BEFORE the games. I did this with Duffy in mind... nobody selected him. But it was always obvious it was going to be portrayed as "another Moyes disaster" AFTER the game.


It's a very similar situation to when Moyes dropped Saha, Yakubu and Beckford for the game at Eastlands, hardly anyone noticed or said a word... Yet the screams of hysteria and outrage after the West Ham game still havent subsided.

Hindsight eh?

Rob Williamson
28   Posted 04/01/2011 at 17:03:12

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It just shows what Moyes thinks of your suggestion Andy. This is from Moyes quoted on the official site:
We will have a choice (in replacing Jagielka), if we can get John Heitinga fit or there is Tony Hibbert"
Moyes' reputation for giving youngsters a chance is, I believe unjustified. He is by nature cautious and risk-averse...one look at his tactics will demonstrate that. If you look at the times when he has brought any youngsters into the first team it has been when, due to either suspension or injury, there has been nobody else available. The chances of Duffy getting a start tomorrow night are minimal. My guess is that he will bring Hibbert in at right-back and move Neville to centre back. If that happens...or indeed if Hibbert plays at all...Spurs will declare at half-time!
Guy Wilkinson
29   Posted 04/01/2011 at 17:46:30

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Happy to agree with Trevor @18 last but one paragraph.

He ought to move Rodwell back into CB for Weds.
James Martin
30   Posted 04/01/2011 at 17:57:37

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If your not better than Hibbert or neville at center back then you may as well hang your boots up to be honest. If Mustafi and Duffy having spent their entire careers there aren't better than an out of position Hibbert then why are they still around. This is not a swipe against Hibbert I like the fact he'll play anywhere and he does a half decent job, but give some young players a chance.
Ray Robinson
31   Posted 04/01/2011 at 18:12:22

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Duffy looked like the only youngster capable of breaking through into the first team when I saw him play last season against Bate. Jags is out tomorrow, so give him a game - anything other than Hibbert or Neville at CB!
Trevor Lynes
32   Posted 04/01/2011 at 18:39:30

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We only have the youngsters on the bench when we have no alternatives...many other top teams have pushed their younger players into service much quicker than we have....even Villa are playing Albrighton regularly.

Our team selections are as predictable as our tactics and every manager in the premier must have large dossiers on the strengths and weaknesses of every player we have...everyone knows we attack down the left flank and that Cahill is more or less our only goal threat.

Now we are missing Cahill, Jags and possibly Coleman for the Spurs game...???

Simon Jenkins
33   Posted 04/01/2011 at 19:13:29

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I seem to recall Moyes handing Seamus Coleman his debut away at Benfica. He also frequently played Dan Gosling, handed Wayne Rooney, Jack Rodwell, James Vaughan, Victor Anichebe and Leon Osman their first team debuts.

To say Moyes doesn't give youth a chance is off the mark.

As for whether he 'only does it when forced to', well.... I think you'll find at least 95% of young players getting their debuts only come through managers 'being forced to'. Most managers go for experience over youth, unless the youth in question is of a special nature (Rooney, Rodwell).

Yet again, more realism is needed here. Duffy is a young kid, learning his trade, a few months back after a bad injury, getting used to being a senior pro. He probably needs a loan period out somewhere to get experience. Moyes's ability to coach strikers may be questionable, but as a former centre half himself, I trust that he knows what's needed in this area.
Fran Mitchell
34   Posted 04/01/2011 at 19:28:26

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Simon 31.

That would be all well and good when the players are playing well... but they are not. Playing a right-back in one game, an injured one in the other (with the result of both players scoring an own goal and the team collecting 1 point in two games against average-poor opposition) instead of a central defender. Either ship him out or play him.

If he isn't good enough, why oh why get rid of Yobo?

Moyes will give youth a chance, but only when it's the last option. Most managers use it quite often... Utd have used many a player who has later gone down the divisions, but Utd would use for 10-15 games, judge and then decide. Most of Utd's substitutes are from their youth system, and most have had gametime. Moyes plays only the dead certs, he is scared to use anything else.

Also, often people cite x, y and z as having failed when people were shouting for them to get a game. But is it not possible that their progress and potential was hampered by sitting on the bench and getting 1-2 minute runs out 4 times a season until they're 22 before signing for Bristol Rovers? I think so.

Moyes can only deal with youngstes who work hard and have natural strengh (Osman came in becasue we had nothing else and no money), otherwise, Moyes doesnt know what to do with them (Baxter, for example) and they flounder.
David Thomas
35   Posted 04/01/2011 at 19:37:04

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"We only have the youngsters on the bench when we have no alternatives...many other top teams have pushed their younger players into service much quicker than we have....even Villa are playing Albrighton regularly."

I don't think looking at the league table Villa are the best point of reference are they?
Joe McMahon
36   Posted 04/01/2011 at 19:50:31

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Oliver Molloy - I'm not so sure. Look where Jack Wilshere is now under Wenger, and then compare Rodwell (who seems to be going backwards) with Moyes.

I've got to the point with Moyes, where even at the 9th attempt if we did win an Anfield (and that's an if) I still want the negative dour fucker to go. The final straw for me was the tactics at West Ham game.
Martin Faulkner
37   Posted 04/01/2011 at 20:06:38

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With Jags, Heitinga and possibly Coleman all out, line up could look something like this...

Howard
Neville Rodwell Distin Baines
Arteta Fellaini Pienaar Gueye
Bily
Beckford

But then again DM will probably plump for Hibbo at CB and Saha upfront, persevering with Arteta in CM.
Unfortunately I can't see DM giving Duffy an outing against an in-form Spurs. I hope Heitinga gets back to fitness and plays but I have the feeling he's already played his last game for us.

Paul Masher
38   Posted 04/01/2011 at 20:03:18

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I mentioned on another post how moyes rates Duffy (like Oliver mentioned above) and was / is looking to let him out on loan during this window to get first-team experience, but our options at CB are down to bare bones so I would've thought this would be his chance.

If it is his lack of first-team experience which worries Moyes, then I'd rather see Rodwell at CB instead of Hibbo or Neville!! That is his 'natural' position and he has the speed / ability to read the game from that position better than the 'experienced' shoe-ins at our disposal. It certainly can't be any worse!!

This would also relieve the CM headache Moyes seems to have and allow him to play Fellaini & Arteta together... Although Arteta has been piss poor!!
Oliver Molloy
39   Posted 04/01/2011 at 20:14:51

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Joe @ 33

Yes we all can make comparisons till the cows come home but Jack Wilshere is playing every day with probably the most technically gifted football team in the league, so it's no surprise that he has come on leaps and bounds.

Everton simply have not got the talent in the squad to bring the best out for the likes of Rodwell.

And something I suspect we will agree on is Moyes is no Wenger!!!

Colin Gee
40   Posted 04/01/2011 at 20:42:01

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I to have heard great things about Shane Duffy but, the way things are going at the moment I expect David Moyes to pick himself at centre-back before Shane Duffy!

Duffy should have started against West Ham instead of playing Hibbert out of position, it was the perfect game to blood him in, West Ham's aren't great and with an old warhorse like Distin along side him he would have learnt even more.


David Thomas
41   Posted 04/01/2011 at 21:21:53

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Who are these young players that Moyes has not introduced in his time in charge that should have been playing?? I remember people saying a few years ago how Moyes should have been playing Peter Clarke, Mark Huges and Stephen Schumacher on a regular basis.

To those people saying United and Arsenal introduce their kids more have you not considered that is because these one or two players are coming in and playing alongside the likes of Fabregas, Van Persie, Nasri, Schole, Giggs, Rooney and Ferdinand etc. I would imagine if Moyes had the luxury of having these players in his squad he would have more faith in giving youngsters more time on the pitch if they were good enough.
Jamie Tulacz
42   Posted 04/01/2011 at 22:17:58

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Jags out for tomorrow night, no Cahill, Saha hasn't scored since February.

Time to seize the bull by the horns Mr Moyes and take a few chances. Surely Duffy has to be a better option than Hibbert at centre-back. Would like to see either 2 up front or Bily to play in the hole.

Not holding my breath though...
Gerry Western
43   Posted 04/01/2011 at 22:19:00

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Moyes will always stick by his favorites and therein lies the problem. In many respects his current attitude to Arteta mirrors his approach with Osman. Arteta struts on to the field, runs around looking busy, all too easily dispossessed, frequently gifts the opposition with shockingly poor passes and is almost afraid to make a tackle. Not the Arteta of old by any stretch of the imagination and yet he's always in the starting eleven. Sometimes even the most talented of players need a kick up the backside but Moyes appears incapable of doing so.

Neville is another who's been shockingly poor yet he's guaranteed a start, Saha too. Yet others appear to get very few minutes on the park and if they fail to make an impact, that's it, there on the bench for months on end and restricted to cameo appearances.

The bottom line is no player should be selected to play unless he's fit. Jagielka was totally out of sorts against Stoke and was a complete liability, just about anyone could have done a better job than him in that position.

Hibbert isn't a centre back by any stretch of the imagination. Against the Hammers he was at sixes and sevens - we looked vulnerable every time they got beyond the half way line. Neville is struggling to perform at right back, to suggest he might do a job at centre of defence is a huge ask. Unless Hetinga is fit, we may well have to resort to Duffy or Jack. Knowing Moyes, if he chooses to play either in that position he will only do so as a last resort.
Tom Bowers
44   Posted 04/01/2011 at 23:37:21

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This month is crunch/crisis time and if Moyes and Kenright don't realise it then we are sunk. We are right in the dogfight to keep out of the relegation zone with Spurs and redshite up next Will he put Hibbert back in the middle, hopefully not. We have options as indicated in these comments and we should use them. His loyalty to certain players is pathetic and is partly the reason we are struggling to win games. Why not start Anichebe and Beckford up front or even Vaughan if he is fit. He has no faith in Yaks and Saha is not performing at all. Duffy or Rodwell should start alongside Distin. We need a new look and therefore we should give the younger players a start.
Derek Thomas
45   Posted 05/01/2011 at 08:02:52

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Colin Gee # 40, spot on, I can remember Labone as an 18yr old being told where to stand for corners, fast forward to late 60's early 70s(?) and him doing the same with Kenyon.

You learn by doing.
Albert Veldhuizen
46   Posted 05/01/2011 at 12:33:20

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The line up will be.
Howard,Coleman,Hibbert,Distin,Baines,Neville ,Pienaar,Arteta,Felliani,Osman,Saha.

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