It seems that an unfit Jagielka is better than Shane Duffy.
I sung the praises of Seamus Coleman long and hard on this site. Not because he's Irish but because I saw him play and knew he was quality.
I've done the same with Shane. Believe me, this lad will be a star. It is beyond belief to me that he sits on the bench while Moyes picks unfit players. I haven't seen lads like Baxter etc, so I don't know what they are like.
However, in my view, Moyes would rather play anyone out of position (fucking Hibbert at centre-back) than give youth a chance. Shane Duffy is the best centre-back at Goodison Park. Believe.
Andy Crooks, Posted 03/01/2011 at 23:47:44
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1 Posted 04/01/2011 at 03:35:39
I was very disappointed with the team against West Ham. It's good to hear that Duffy could be a good'n as I've only seen him play once; for Everton in Europe.
He's certainly taller than Hibbert.
2 Posted 04/01/2011 at 06:17:25
Hibbert and now an injured Jagielka were on a hiding to nothing and were only trying to help the team.Moyes should not have put them in that position in the first place.
And why the fuck is Yobo still away. Can we recall him back?
3 Posted 04/01/2011 at 07:58:35
What's the point of having him (and a host of other players, for that matter) in the squad or bench if, when the time comes and he's the only fit central defender left, a right-back is played in that position instead? Moyes may as well offload him now because if he doesn't use him under such a circumstance, then he probably won't use him when the other central defenders are fit. (Seriously, why keep him as a squad player if Moyes isn't going to play him no matter what? And if Moyes deems he's not up to premier leagues tandards, why keep him at all?)
Also, to me, the episode highlights the difference between Moyes and a great manager like SAF in that SAF has the knowledge and balls to drop his star player if he felt it meant putting out a stronger team (i.e. dropping Berbatov against Arsenal a week after he had scored 5 goals), while Moyes only knows and dares to play his strongest team *on paper* without considering actual on-the-field factors (eg. nature of the opposition, injuries, loss of form, correct position, etc).
The tragic irony is that what he thinks is his "strongest team" has repeatedly been shown to be piss-weak this season.
4 Posted 04/01/2011 at 08:17:32
The tragic irony is A FACT Im afraid.
5 Posted 04/01/2011 at 08:24:33
6 Posted 04/01/2011 at 08:32:14
7 Posted 04/01/2011 at 09:46:12
8 Posted 04/01/2011 at 10:13:22
I don't know anything about Duffy, but Moyes has shown he knows best on this time and again.
9 Posted 04/01/2011 at 10:30:13
I have a friend who knows Shane's Father quite well and he told me that last year moyes told Duffy's Father his son was going to be "a top class centre half-but had a way to go before he would have a first team opportunity"
Being on the bench is all part of the process of slowly nurturing the player into the 1st team and how it all works,the experiences etc etc.
10 Posted 04/01/2011 at 10:54:11
Do you not think that Moyes would pick Duffy if he was as good and experienced as you seem to think? Moyes trains with them on a daily basis, works with them week in week out, speaks with the medical team on a daily basis and then picks the team.
Or did you think that Moyes has a huge fucking giggle when picking the team?
11 Posted 04/01/2011 at 11:08:23
On another thread I listed basic weaknesses in each players tecniquie.
Jag a closet hoofer, Hibbo & Neville's dire passing, Artetas lousy free kicks, Osman and Bily's lack of speed, Pienaars shooting, Beckfords poor first touch, Yaks fitness.
Coaches who are incapable of bringing about even the slightest improvement in such glaring weaknesses would be the last people I would look to for advice on anything.
12 Posted 04/01/2011 at 11:17:34
We have conservative manager who is afraid of failure. He gives young players limited playing time. This may be to shield them from criticism - note how Coleman was sheltered back in the reserves after played out of position in the Europa hammering.
Agree Rodwell isn't world class, but the only way to develop him is to play him. SAF is looking at him as the replacement for Rio Ferdinand whose back is shagged. He sees a talent that needs nurturing and developing.
13 Posted 04/01/2011 at 11:33:58
But then that means we should never contradict any decision he makes, as he will always know more about personal issues, fitness, training, attitude etc. But the issue is, we a playing poorly. So now we start to question.
On Duffy, I have never seen him play but have heard good things. He suffered a terrible injury which could hamper his development or mental strength for the quick step-up. However it could also help him, over-coming such a daunting experience as he did could make the idea of playing in the Premier League much less scary. All depends on his personal character, which I know nothing of.
However, look at Rodwell and Coleman. Both seemed too good for the reserves, and too good to be shipped out on loan. But at the same time Moyes refused to give them more than 5/10 minutes here and there (centre-backs don't get this opportunity like midfielders). An injury crisis in both circumstances (can also include Gosling) and these players proved themselves to be up to it. Now Moyes knows they are up to it, he will play them.
It appears Moyes is scared of playing youth, he seems to require absolute certainty that they are up to a certain level of performance. For people like Duffy, I'm afraid its a bit of a catch-22 situation. Moyes will only play him when he is sure he got the experience, but by never playing him he will never get that experience.
It shows an overall lack of risk taking by Moyes, which is ridiculous when you consider our current form. You can't argue with a winning formula, but one that is struggling so desperatly, that you can argue against.
14 Posted 04/01/2011 at 11:39:04
15 Posted 04/01/2011 at 12:50:36
Back to Duffy, though, he is still raw but he as got all the tools to be a good CB... how good, I don't know but I think he'll have some sort of career at Everton but he should've been given a go at Stoke at least, what harm would it of done? It might've been the making of him, you never know... but Moyes needs to either give these youngsters a chance or do what the likes of Sir Alex Ferguson, Wenger and Redknapp do: send them out on loan and get them game time that way, and see how they get on. He knows what it did for Coleman, so who's to say something similar can't happen to the others?
I'm surprised Duffy didn't get a chance cos I remember Moyes saying after the Tottenham game at White Hart Lane this season that he was very tempted to put on Duffy at half-time in that game to deal with Crouch as Duffy is really strong in the air so I'm sure those attributes would've come in handy against Stoke.
16 Posted 04/01/2011 at 12:38:55
I am giving up of seeing any exciting football at Goodison.
How can Moyes come out and say he played an injured player rather than a young centre half.
We have had no pace in the side for years yet he is reportedly after another Centre half. For fuck sake lets give Baxter, Duffy, Vaughan a chance, before its too late.
Hey spotted Kenright on the Sky Vintage Music Channel. Maybe that is now his new toy??
17 Posted 04/01/2011 at 13:14:26
18 Posted 04/01/2011 at 13:28:06
The reasons Moyes must go were evident in the following games in which we should have got more than we did:
Blackburn... Aston Villa Game... Newcastle... Wolves... West Brom... Bolton...Stoke...
His best ever squad ? bullshit; even more worrying, he doesn't know where to play them to get the best out of them.
19 Posted 04/01/2011 at 13:23:23
Our coaching staff must be pretty poor and our scouts are finding no one.
We really need to clear out from top to bottom of the backroom staff.
Year after year we empty out our academy kids and sometimes embarrassingly buy them back eg; Jags and Baines....these players were improved elsewhere so why cant we do the improving ?? Jags and Baines cost us good money and we got nothing for Gosling.....this is throwing assets away through poor judgement.
I reckon Jags is a top class defender and attracted good money from Arsenal....Baines is probably the only other player in our first team on present form who would command a large fee.
We do not have one of the best squads in the premiership in my opinion.
We are disgustingly looking to borrow players like Santa Cruz and Owen who have hardly kicked a ball and that really infuriates me.
We have no real ambition at all as a club and are just hoping for survival.
Almost every other team in the league and some in the championship seem to have some sort of budget to buy players but we are the f.....g Primark shoppers, or big issue sellers.
I have supported EFC since 1948 and am sick to death of the present shambles.
Even when we got relegated back in 1950 we had some money to spend.
20 Posted 04/01/2011 at 13:54:30
21 Posted 04/01/2011 at 14:25:55
Give me a break! I've only seen the lad once, I can't remember the game but he didn't look very confident. I defo wouldn't trust him to face the Cockney onslaught coming our way.
22 Posted 04/01/2011 at 14:57:43
To be honest, playing football manager is boring and unproductive, anyway the rumours I'm hearing is that Moyes is looking at an additional CB this transfer window, so whatever greatness Duffy has (in certain peoples eyes) - Moyes ain't seeing it.
Going forward, I just want a win tomorrow and I don't care if the queen plays at the back. I just want a win.
23 Posted 04/01/2011 at 14:59:02
24 Posted 04/01/2011 at 15:10:33
25 Posted 04/01/2011 at 15:24:05
26 Posted 04/01/2011 at 15:24:02
What is it with Moyes? Great manager but does things which do not make any sense. This is one of them.
27 Posted 04/01/2011 at 15:35:54
I havent seen enough of Duffy to offer a opinion of him, but I took close interest in the teams people were putting forward to face Birmingham (prior to postponment) and West Ham BEFORE the games. I did this with Duffy in mind... nobody selected him. But it was always obvious it was going to be portrayed as "another Moyes disaster" AFTER the game.
It's a very similar situation to when Moyes dropped Saha, Yakubu and Beckford for the game at Eastlands, hardly anyone noticed or said a word... Yet the screams of hysteria and outrage after the West Ham game still havent subsided.
28 Posted 04/01/2011 at 17:03:12
We will have a choice (in replacing Jagielka), if we can get John Heitinga fit or there is Tony Hibbert"
Moyes' reputation for giving youngsters a chance is, I believe unjustified. He is by nature cautious and risk-averse...one look at his tactics will demonstrate that. If you look at the times when he has brought any youngsters into the first team it has been when, due to either suspension or injury, there has been nobody else available. The chances of Duffy getting a start tomorrow night are minimal. My guess is that he will bring Hibbert in at right-back and move Neville to centre back. If that happens...or indeed if Hibbert plays at all...Spurs will declare at half-time!
29 Posted 04/01/2011 at 17:46:30
He ought to move Rodwell back into CB for Weds.
30 Posted 04/01/2011 at 17:57:37
31 Posted 04/01/2011 at 18:12:22
32 Posted 04/01/2011 at 18:39:30
Our team selections are as predictable as our tactics and every manager in the premier must have large dossiers on the strengths and weaknesses of every player we have...everyone knows we attack down the left flank and that Cahill is more or less our only goal threat.
Now we are missing Cahill, Jags and possibly Coleman for the Spurs game...???
33 Posted 04/01/2011 at 19:13:29
To say Moyes doesn't give youth a chance is off the mark.
As for whether he 'only does it when forced to', well.... I think you'll find at least 95% of young players getting their debuts only come through managers 'being forced to'. Most managers go for experience over youth, unless the youth in question is of a special nature (Rooney, Rodwell).
Yet again, more realism is needed here. Duffy is a young kid, learning his trade, a few months back after a bad injury, getting used to being a senior pro. He probably needs a loan period out somewhere to get experience. Moyes's ability to coach strikers may be questionable, but as a former centre half himself, I trust that he knows what's needed in this area.
34 Posted 04/01/2011 at 19:28:26
That would be all well and good when the players are playing well... but they are not. Playing a right-back in one game, an injured one in the other (with the result of both players scoring an own goal and the team collecting 1 point in two games against average-poor opposition) instead of a central defender. Either ship him out or play him.
If he isn't good enough, why oh why get rid of Yobo?
Moyes will give youth a chance, but only when it's the last option. Most managers use it quite often... Utd have used many a player who has later gone down the divisions, but Utd would use for 10-15 games, judge and then decide. Most of Utd's substitutes are from their youth system, and most have had gametime. Moyes plays only the dead certs, he is scared to use anything else.
Also, often people cite x, y and z as having failed when people were shouting for them to get a game. But is it not possible that their progress and potential was hampered by sitting on the bench and getting 1-2 minute runs out 4 times a season until they're 22 before signing for Bristol Rovers? I think so.
Moyes can only deal with youngstes who work hard and have natural strengh (Osman came in becasue we had nothing else and no money), otherwise, Moyes doesnt know what to do with them (Baxter, for example) and they flounder.
35 Posted 04/01/2011 at 19:37:04
I don't think looking at the league table Villa are the best point of reference are they?
36 Posted 04/01/2011 at 19:50:31
I've got to the point with Moyes, where even at the 9th attempt if we did win an Anfield (and that's an if) I still want the negative dour fucker to go. The final straw for me was the tactics at West Ham game.
37 Posted 04/01/2011 at 20:06:38
Neville Rodwell Distin Baines
Arteta Fellaini Pienaar Gueye
But then again DM will probably plump for Hibbo at CB and Saha upfront, persevering with Arteta in CM.
Unfortunately I can't see DM giving Duffy an outing against an in-form Spurs. I hope Heitinga gets back to fitness and plays but I have the feeling he's already played his last game for us.
38 Posted 04/01/2011 at 20:03:18
If it is his lack of first-team experience which worries Moyes, then I'd rather see Rodwell at CB instead of Hibbo or Neville!! That is his 'natural' position and he has the speed / ability to read the game from that position better than the 'experienced' shoe-ins at our disposal. It certainly can't be any worse!!
This would also relieve the CM headache Moyes seems to have and allow him to play Fellaini & Arteta together... Although Arteta has been piss poor!!
39 Posted 04/01/2011 at 20:14:51
Yes we all can make comparisons till the cows come home but Jack Wilshere is playing every day with probably the most technically gifted football team in the league, so it's no surprise that he has come on leaps and bounds.
Everton simply have not got the talent in the squad to bring the best out for the likes of Rodwell.
And something I suspect we will agree on is Moyes is no Wenger!!!
40 Posted 04/01/2011 at 20:42:01
Duffy should have started against West Ham instead of playing Hibbert out of position, it was the perfect game to blood him in, West Ham's aren't great and with an old warhorse like Distin along side him he would have learnt even more.
41 Posted 04/01/2011 at 21:21:53
To those people saying United and Arsenal introduce their kids more have you not considered that is because these one or two players are coming in and playing alongside the likes of Fabregas, Van Persie, Nasri, Schole, Giggs, Rooney and Ferdinand etc. I would imagine if Moyes had the luxury of having these players in his squad he would have more faith in giving youngsters more time on the pitch if they were good enough.
42 Posted 04/01/2011 at 22:17:58
Time to seize the bull by the horns Mr Moyes and take a few chances. Surely Duffy has to be a better option than Hibbert at centre-back. Would like to see either 2 up front or Bily to play in the hole.
Not holding my breath though...
43 Posted 04/01/2011 at 22:19:00
Neville is another who's been shockingly poor yet he's guaranteed a start, Saha too. Yet others appear to get very few minutes on the park and if they fail to make an impact, that's it, there on the bench for months on end and restricted to cameo appearances.
The bottom line is no player should be selected to play unless he's fit. Jagielka was totally out of sorts against Stoke and was a complete liability, just about anyone could have done a better job than him in that position.
Hibbert isn't a centre back by any stretch of the imagination. Against the Hammers he was at sixes and sevens - we looked vulnerable every time they got beyond the half way line. Neville is struggling to perform at right back, to suggest he might do a job at centre of defence is a huge ask. Unless Hetinga is fit, we may well have to resort to Duffy or Jack. Knowing Moyes, if he chooses to play either in that position he will only do so as a last resort.
44 Posted 04/01/2011 at 23:37:21
45 Posted 05/01/2011 at 08:02:52
You learn by doing.
46 Posted 05/01/2011 at 12:33:20
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