There have been many discussions on here as to whether we should be adopting a 4-4-2, or 4-5-1. I think the main reasoning behind deciding the formation has to do with Tim Cahill.
Moyes obviously wants Cahill in our team. As much as I love Cahill for his efforts (he really would run through a brick wall for our [&his] club) he is not good enough to play in a 4-man midfield. Therefore to have Cahill in his side, Moyes plays a 4-5-1 with Cahill as a 2nd striker. He's the target man & gets into the box when going forward, but when we lose the ball he's the 5th man in the middle.
If playing 4-4-2 there is obviously no place for Cahill in the middle. The goal threat he offers is generally from late runs into the box or from set pieces, and his movement when playing as a stiker is non-existent. This means that he doesn't perform as effectively when playing up front so this rules him out from playing as part of a front 2. So, with this formation, Tim Cahill doesn't fit into the team.
So what does Moyes do? 4-5-1 with Cahill in the side, or 4-4-2 with him on the bench? If we carry on performing like we are currently, this is the decision Moyes will have to make when Tim returns from the Asia Cup.
Take into account that only 4 people (Drogba (22), Tevez (26) & Bent (18)) scored more goals in the Premier League than Tim Cahill (15) in 2010. Do you leave out your top goalscorer (by some margin)?
Kevin Lucas, Posted 10/01/2011 at 12:59:19
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1 Posted 10/01/2011 at 14:51:55
2 Posted 10/01/2011 at 15:01:15
As positive as the last week has been and as much improvement as there has been in that week, it is still a one off win against Spurs in the league and a cup win against a far lower quality outfit.
Weve got Liverpool (A), West Ham (H)Chelsea (H - Cup) and Arsenal (A) coming up, lets see how we get on.
3 Posted 10/01/2011 at 14:58:00
Was it just a coincidence that Saha looked a better player, and a lot happier without Cahill? Or maybe it was because he had another striker on the pitch, whose movement and pace opened the game up a bit more for him?
4 Posted 10/01/2011 at 15:11:49
5 Posted 10/01/2011 at 15:28:27
6 Posted 10/01/2011 at 15:25:55
7 Posted 10/01/2011 at 15:36:42
8 Posted 10/01/2011 at 15:37:36
9 Posted 10/01/2011 at 15:35:57
What's the difference between 4-5-1 and a 4-4-2 with one striker dropping deep?
Surely against RS and Arse away we'll stick with a winning team. Just ask Saha to drop a little deeper -which I believe is where he is best.
Again the Chelsea title winners under Mourinho played something between 4-3-3 and 4-5-1. Essentially the two wide players just adjusted their runs to best deal with the opposition.
What's more important is balance. Having the left foot of Baines, and then the directness of Coleman on the right.
The presence of Fellaini with the guile of Arteta (historically). The pace of Beckford with the technique of Saha etc.
10 Posted 10/01/2011 at 15:52:11
11 Posted 10/01/2011 at 16:09:10
Why are people still asking this question? The evidence is right before your eyes.
12 Posted 10/01/2011 at 16:48:16
13 Posted 10/01/2011 at 17:39:12
We don't need his foreign winning mentality at all.
One game against the most open side in the league and it's 4-4-2 all the way....yeehaaaa
14 Posted 10/01/2011 at 18:04:38
This isn't what Moyes has done in the past, he's never shown any inclination to have different formations for home and away games, so I don't really understand your claim that it's predictable. I would argue though that its what he should do. There isn't really a straight answer to the question, as the team selection should depend on the opponents and whether we're home or away. Basically in games we should expect to win, keep going with 4-4-2, and look to dominate, and against teams we're not expected to beat, 4-5-1 works nicely for us. Liverpool are currently in the former category, and I'd love to have a go at Chelsea as well, although if yesterday triggers a surge in form it may not be practical.
I'd say the real problem is that if we start 4-5-1, we should be prepared to change to 4-4-2 around the four mark, not the 78 minute mark (or sometimes not at all) as has happened this season.
15 Posted 10/01/2011 at 19:10:59
Imagine that, Tim behind the two strikers. (voice of that stupid dog) ohhhh yes !
16 Posted 10/01/2011 at 19:13:25
Interesting decision about Heitinga (who has played in last two wins). Moyes should start with him, otherwise his confidence and wanting to play for Moyes will go!
17 Posted 10/01/2011 at 19:28:56
It's so frustrating for fellow Blues to say things like,"obviously he can't play in a 442." Why not? You tell me what Arteta and Osman done in the centre of the pitch against Spurs and Scunny that Cahill couldn't possibly have done?
We've been going on about having a goalscoring midfielder for years and I believe we've got one but play him in the middle of the park with Fellaini and let him do his running around, closing down there along with his added goalscoring threat.....
18 Posted 10/01/2011 at 19:37:14
But apart from his goals, his defensive headers, his tackling, his winding up of the other players, his commitment, hs workrate etc what does TC actually bring to the team?
19 Posted 10/01/2011 at 19:47:32
20 Posted 10/01/2011 at 19:39:02
Was wondering about Cahill in the middle 4 before reading the last 2 posts. Agree on this seasons form that he's probably as good a bet as Arteta, Osman and Rodwell none of who have set things alight this season. Especially with the big Fella in such great form. Just wondering if Arteta is even more undroppable for Moyes than Cahill though?
21 Posted 10/01/2011 at 19:36:55
On the subject of Cahill, I see him being increasingly employed as our very own supersub. The way forward has to be 4-4-2 and Beckford has to stay in there with a/n other and at the moment that is Saha. In my view this lad has got what it takes and once he gets the pace of the prem under his belt we will have a good striker on our books. He will learn nothing and fail to adapt to the Prem while sitting on the bloody bench.
When players are tiring, Cahill would be a master to bring on for the last half hour or so. He is ageing anyway and this would keep him with us a bit longer. I am not saying he should never start a game but that the emphasis should now begin to shift towards getting out of him what he is best at....getting goals and taunting the shite of the opposition.
I love him for what he does best but he is not a 'midfielder' in the true sense of the word.
22 Posted 10/01/2011 at 19:55:10
Apart from fast free flowing football, strikers scoring, midfielders scoring, defenders scoring, not falling asleep at the match, not trying to defend a nil-nil draw, having acres of space in the final third, err... oh yeah winning football matches, what does not having TC in the team mean?
23 Posted 10/01/2011 at 20:06:10
24 Posted 10/01/2011 at 20:14:22
Better drop Arteta to fix that dilema
25 Posted 10/01/2011 at 20:31:21
Is that the same sort of great football that we played in the second half of last season that people keep posting that we need to get back to?
The same great football that Tim Cahill played in.
The man is fourth in the list of premier league goals for 2010 i think. He is the third or fourth highest goalscorer in the league this season. He has a better goals to games ratio than Gerrard and Lampard. He is the hardest working player in the team. He is the only player at the club who consistently scores on the big occasions. Only Dixie Dean has done better against Liverpool.
Every away team picks him out as our danger man. Yet, after all this, people still question his position in the team. I guess it is Cahill's fault that Arteta has been poor this season? It's Cahill's fault that Saha has looked like he could not give a toss about running five yards for the team for the last 6 months etc? I think certain people will only realise how important he is to Everton when it is to late and he has left the club / retired etc.
26 Posted 10/01/2011 at 21:04:02
27 Posted 10/01/2011 at 20:29:40
For the first time i'm really REALLY looking forward to the next round. Chelsea dont forget were amazing at the start of the season but commentators, in the media remarked on the lack of opposition.
For once they were right. Once they played decent teams it all went tits up. (oh sorry according to the meeja it's all because Drogdive has a severe case of maler mal.... unwellness)
But back to the point. It's Moyes who has to work out what formation we play. Like for most of this season to go 4-5-1 has been disasterous for us. 4-4-2 has gone well since Tim has left our shores.
But between the two formations Moyes has not been able to differenciate between the two as in the teams we've played so far. LIke I said before it's horses for courses.
Against the shite I can see him start off with a 4-5-1 but I can also see him morpf into a 4-4-2. This game at the weekend will not be about how Moyes sets up our side, but, his ability to change things on the pitch as it happens. In short davey you'll need to think on your feet. 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 is irrelevent. It's about being able to change a game for the better whilst the game is in motion.
Thinking on your feet and being able to change a game is the way managers win things.
28 Posted 10/01/2011 at 21:13:08
Maybe that's one way we can accommodate them all. Arteta Pienaar (or Bily) and Cahill in a forward thinking diamond with Fellaini breaking up play?
29 Posted 10/01/2011 at 21:20:45
30 Posted 10/01/2011 at 21:28:26
What I want is Moyes to realise that he has a lot of options. Sometimes play 4-5-1; sometimes 4-2-3-1... and sometimes 4-4-2. If he starts with one and it isn't working in a match, change it. That means Cahill starts some matches, and is on the bench for others.
But what a great player to be able to bring off the bench, and that will keep him a bit fresher so that he doesn't have as many slumps in form.
31 Posted 10/01/2011 at 21:12:27
32 Posted 10/01/2011 at 22:11:26
33 Posted 10/01/2011 at 22:54:15
When we gatecrashed the Sky Four (all them years ago) we played 4-5-1, Tim played as an out-and-out midfielder in that team. Marcus Bent was our lone forward. Since then, however, Moyes has turned him into some kind of crossbreed mid-forward/striker-fielder.
He doesn't play as an out-and-out sriker, 'cause he ain't one. He doesn't play as a midfielder 'cos Moyes, or someone, gives him licence to float about the pitch. When he played as a midfielder, in the 4-5-1 system, he still got up on the blind side and scored goals. Now he scores goals, but in this position, a sort of goalhanger position; we lose a man from the 4-5-1 system and it doesn't work anymore, because of his free role.
The formation we have been playing was definatly 4-4-1-1, and no-one plays that way. Now we're playing 4-4-2, it's like we know what we're doing: 11 men involved, because I believe that Timmy's brief would've been to ghost in, you know... steal us a winner, and quite often he has.
But it has been to the detriment of the team. I'm not blaming Tim, a true legend in my eyes, but, it has thrown us out. I'm quite sure that if Moyes plays a true 4-5-1 with 5 midfielders, we would still be effective, and good to watch: Pienaar, Felli, Arteta, Rodwell, Coleman.
Btw, with Arteta not turning up on so many occasions this season, we have been down to a three-man midfield as well. Cahill in his free role, in the hole (I hate that term), and Mickey going awol after his injury, and you can see why we have struggled.
34 Posted 10/01/2011 at 23:29:25
That day, two of the unused subs were Cahill and Arteta?
35 Posted 10/01/2011 at 23:26:36
36 Posted 11/01/2011 at 01:42:00
37 Posted 11/01/2011 at 01:51:10
38 Posted 11/01/2011 at 02:19:13
39 Posted 11/01/2011 at 02:21:24
40 Posted 11/01/2011 at 02:23:53
It's not as simple as saying TC scores all the goals so he must play. It is entirely possible that Saha would be in double figures by now had he had a full time strike partner to work alongside him all season.
I've seen us look complete shite this season. Cahill scores a goal or two, but we were still shite. Then I watch the Spurs game and I like what I see. We get three points. I know what I want to see more of, and it aint playing shite, dropping points but seeing Timmy score.
I love the guy, but if he needs to be benched in order for us to see more attacking football, then so be it.
41 Posted 11/01/2011 at 07:15:10
If we don't add any players during this Transfer Window - but don't sell any either then I still believe that we have a good enough squad of players to finish well in the top half of the table. David Moyes in my opinion has not been getting the best out of his squad. For the last two games we have had Saha & Beckford playing alongside each other and we have seen the difference.
Before I offend the Pro Moyes "lobby" - can I say Idon't want the guy sacked/to resign I just want our manager to realise the full potential of the squad of players that he has and not to stiffle them. And when I say realise our squad's full potential I include Tim Cahill in that. To say that he can only play in a rigid 4-5-1 formation is certainly wide of the mark in my opinion. We have some very versitile, talented midfield players with a manager who doesn't allow them to play to their full potential.
42 Posted 11/01/2011 at 10:15:57
Apart from his goals he would do more work in the engine room than anyone bar Fellani.
People form an opinion about Tim then feed on any ridiculous crumb for justification.
43 Posted 11/01/2011 at 14:00:33
I think Al Reddish almost got the best team we can put out on the park, except I'd go for Bily instead of Cahill. I'd keep faith with Arteta because he's got footballing ability, which Cahill unfortunately doesn't have.
44 Posted 11/01/2011 at 15:42:30
One of the best goal scoring attacking midfielders/support striker in recent seasons with the heart of lion who gives nothing less than 100% each game or Bily. Cahill for me every time.
Cahill doesn't score goals because our strikers are shit he scores goals because he is a very good footballer who positional sense for balls into the box is excellent.
45 Posted 11/01/2011 at 18:48:22
Your wasting your breath. If people after 6+ years can't see how valuable Cahill is to the club they never will.
46 Posted 11/01/2011 at 20:02:59
Makes me wonder why I am not blessed with the same remarkable genius.
We have a world class inspirational midfielder who is streets ahead of our other midfielders in tackling, number of completed passes, all round effort, willingness to do the hard yards, incredible goal scoring ability that puts our main strikers to shame and but for his goals we would be nailed on for relegation. This player is probably our most feared and the cause of most debate in opponents pre match plans and the Everton player who fans of other clubs would most wish to have.
Unlike mercenaries I could mention, Tim Cahill has shown absolute loyalty and love and is a credit to our club and I would oick him before 99 per cent of all others in the PL.
Despite all the above we have 'experts' who come on here who would replace him with slow moving slow thinking poor tackling sluggards.
I honestly find it mind boggling to share club allegiance with such 'experts'
47 Posted 11/01/2011 at 21:22:36
What an attacking team that will be!!! Coleman and Baines the full-backs bombing forward providing the width and Fellaini dropping back as a 3rd centre-back when the full-backs attack.
Similar to Chelsea. Cahill : Lampard, Beckford : Anelka
Coleman Jags Distin Baines
Arteta Fellaini Cahill
Vaughan Saha Beckford
The only player who misses out then is Pienaar, but he's leaving soon anyway! Bily could play instead of Vaughan more as a forward than midfielder.
48 Posted 12/01/2011 at 03:25:08
Again on present form, between Cahill, Arteta, Osman and Rodwell. Tim has too many pluses than the others.
And just to add to his pluses, I hear he has donated a private box at Goodison and 2 First Class return flights (from Brisbane) for auction on the Queensland flood relief fund, latest bid is at £25k.
49 Posted 12/01/2011 at 09:55:21
50 Posted 12/01/2011 at 11:32:41
Sorry to disagree but I just don't see Bily ever doing it for us in the Premier League on a regular basis. Yes, he's scored a couple of cracking goals but, a lot of the time I've seen him play, he seems lost.
51 Posted 13/01/2011 at 00:10:24
Does anyone agree it's not 4-4-2 it's the same as normal but with Saha it has the ability to turn into a 4-4-2 a lot quicker when on the attack than it would with cahill! Hence the reason for more goals! And maybe because we played a very very poor side in Scunthorpe!
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