For me, the sale of Lucas Neill signalled a turning point at Everton. A reasonable squad player went and we are in trouble should Baines get injured. Yes, we made a quick profit and saved his wages but it was less than £1 million. An ambitious club that wasn't totally skint just wouldn't have done it.
The Yak has gone without a replacement, same with Pienaar, same with Yobbo. Vaughan might be away too. This is desperate cost-cutting and what was in the view of many, our best squad for years is being dismantled. Bily was the last throw of the dice in our gamble for Champions League football.
One can argue that we failed for tactical and football reasons but the hard fact is we are now on the slide. It used to be amusing to see us linked with big names but that particular novelty has well and truly worn off. To give David Moyes the Pienaar money and ask him to make a wonder buy is like going to the bookies with your last tenner, hoping to win your mortgage arrears. It ain't going to happen.
Andy Crooks, Posted 19/01/2011 at 08:43:44
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1 Posted 19/01/2011 at 10:52:22
2 Posted 19/01/2011 at 10:57:15
No doubt we will have to get used to having sperm on the bench for a long while yet. A sorry, sorry state indeed. I am waiting with intrigue as to when the accounts materialise to discover just what exactly is happening.
3 Posted 19/01/2011 at 10:53:01
Neill would've left for free in July anyway... otherwise Moyes would've signed him on a longer contract. We only signed him because of an injury crisis in our defence.
Yakubu has wanted to leave since the summer so better just let him go somewhere he can get into shape and prove he's worth more than the £4M that West Ham offered for him. As for Pienaar, it's always been a question of "when" he leaves rather than "if". He didn't wanna sign while we were in contention for Europe, he wasn't gonna sign now when we are now outsiders for European football next season.
We still have a decent squad and we're only on a slide cos Davey stuck to 4-5-1 for so long.
4 Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:07:10
Would it be fair to say that we are probably in the bottom 3 now for spending power?
Luckily we still have some very good players and hopefully some decent youth coming through. We just need a manager who gets the best out of players and is able to do the most with small amounts of cash.
5 Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:04:49
Off topic: I know they're only rumours but Muntari on loan? Why? Do we really need another central midfielder with defensive qualities? We have Fellaini and Rodwell to fill that role. I hope it is just rumour ? we have other roles which need filling with far greater need.
6 Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:12:28
7 Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:14:54
Sadly, though, I fear as soon as Moyes accepts this, he will leave, as that isn't where he wants to take the club.
8 Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:11:55
To hear Distin saying how unhappy they were to see Pienaar leave doesn't fill me with confidence. I can understand Moyes might want to see the back of Vaughan and Yakubu but surely not Pienaar over a contract dispute. It's all very gloomy.
I can't agree with Tony (3) about the formation although I understand and respect his analysis. To me the players this year (Howard in particular, Arteta, Bilyaletdinov, Beckford, Saha, Yakubu and Jagielka) have not performed whatever the tactics. We should be 10 points further on than we are.
9 Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:38:46
10 Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:41:06
The wage bill is seemingly reduced year on year, we aren't spending anything, and we are making more than ever before. Even the TV deal went up by £8M. The accounts are 8 months late so it seems some serious financial jiggery pokery is going on at EFC.
As long as Bill has got our best interests at heart, we will be fine. Keep the faith and watch this space... before you know it you will be thinking "WOW" at some of the players Moyesy has lined up.
11 Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:43:42
12 Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:34:27
We have let Yak go for a small loan fee when Saha is not reliable enough in terms of game time. It leaves us with Victor and Beckford because we are about to let Vaughan go out on loan as well. I cannot believe he has let Yak go.
Yobo has gone and not been replaced, Yak has gone and not been replaced, Vaughan is about to follow and obviously Pienaar has now gone and we are dragging our fucking feet with replacements. The squad, which was not the biggest anyway, is now tiny and we are only 4 points above the drop!!
It's an absolute piss take and that lying twat Kenwright has a lot to answer for! What's the point in getting loan fees and transfer fees and reducing wages if we are not replacing the QUALITY that we have let go?!
We sold Neil for £1M, got £1M for Yobo's loan, same for Yakubu's and sold Pienaar for £3M... that's £6M brought in and surely Yak, Yobo and Pienaar combined must be taking home over £100k a week??!! More like £120k a week and still we haven't made so much as one move in the market?
Adam Hammill is about to go to Wolves for a tiny £500k and make no mistake he will be a star, and is scouse, but we make no move. There is money there to buy Charlie Adam who is an absolute class act and picked Liverpool apart on his bill; Larsson is cheap a la Pienaar; Santa Cruz goes to Blackburn on loan; Bentley to Brum when Moyes confirmed an interest and had Pienaar to use to make sure we got him on loan. Wright-Phillips is available on loan, Arry states O'Hara can go on loan... ALL PLAYERS THAT WOULD IMPROVE OUR FIRST 11 NEVER MIND SQUAD!! WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON??!!!!
Villa have literally just bought the goals that will keep them up and push them on and we are in serious shit! IF Charlie Adam is not here by close of window with a striker and wide player, then Moyes, Bill and Everton can fuck off and will I shite renew my season ticket. Moyes wanted at least 3 players before he sold Pienaar and let Yak and Vaughan go so now I make that 6 needed!! The Pienaar money is of no use at all unless it replaces him in some way. Otherwise we are weaker, less creative and in serious danger of getting into a relegation scrap, if we are not already!
13 Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:39:07
As for Lucas Neill, he was transferred in on a free when we needed reinforcements and sold on exactly four months later when we had recovered headcount - good business.
Same for Yobo. He was loaned out with a view to selling for £6.5m at the end of the year when he is over 30 and never quite lived up to expectation. Profit after a decade of service is good business.
Vaughan might be away but on loan with a view to a possible sale. That can be reversed if required and he is behind three other strikers so I think relieving some of the strain on the purse but keeping ownership for now is a good thing there. We can always reconsider the sale if he has a stormer with Celtic considering Saha's age.
Yakubu is a different matter. We should have sold him when the Hammers offered £6m and now their derisory, petulant slap in the face of reducing that offer to £4m is looking more realistic. Regrettable but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I was guilty of the same mistake at the time in thinking we should hold out and try to get £8m before letting him go. Error!
I believe when on form we have a superb squad - although the loss of Pienaar does mean we no longer have what is widely considered the best left sided pairing in the Prem. In truth, Pienaar's relationship with Baines will not be easily replicated, if it can be at all, for him or for us. I still think the glass is half full but maybe you just caught me on a good day ;o)
14 Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:02:31
I get envious at the likes of Villa/Spurs splashing the cash but in all honesty, let them! They're spending money they haven't got and big mouth Harry has nearly bankrupted every club he's been at... I don't know what charm he has over Levy and the Spurs board but they have about 3 players for every position and in the case of Pienaar is probably 3rd in each of those positions.
Harry has made a loss on a load of players ? one being Bentley and I honestly can't see where they're getting the money from. He'll stay in charge for one or two more seasons, leave when the shit hits the fan for Spurs and manage England. For any success he's brought past clubs (if any), each club would rather be more secure. West Ham suffered ups and downs galore and I'm sure Pompey would swap their FA Cup for stability!
Sadly ? and probably something all Evertonians need to realise ? we are a club living within or means... Probably saddled by previous debt and still paying off previous transfers (Fellaini etc)...
15 Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:09:20
Lucas was on more than £50k a week ? talented in part but bad for team harmony and was always a stop gap buy on those wages.
Is the club ran well? ? I don't think so.
As for Piennar, I think Moyes / EFC gambled on two things: (1) he would have a great World Cup and inflate his value and sell him then; (2) we would get into Champions League with squad he assembled ? clearly nowhere near in hingsight.
Moyes has always been good at plucking gems ? one of his undoubted qualities ? I suspect he has somebody in mind, not as if Piennar leaving is unexpected.
16 Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:22:09
This season, we'll probably finish 12th or 13th and the cracks will be papered over. But what about next season? With no pot to do our business in, and no goal-scorers in our team, that usually equals relegation. Saha will be a year older (and probably just as injured), Anichebe may also have moved on for free (contract up in summer), Vaughan may be a permanent Scottish fixture. What does that leave us with? Nothing.
I am desperately worried for next season now. We need a quality incoming striker in the summer or we are going to be facing Championship football in the face.
17 Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:09:48
Lucas Neill was a solid performer for us ? at a time when had been leaking goals badly. The point is that we sold him just to make a quick £1M at the risk of stretching our already threadbare defence (no Jags or Heitinga remember). The fact we recovered and had a good finish to the season was irrelevant. It was good business in hindsight. But the fact we had to gamble like that just to make a quick buck is the cause for concern.
Yakubu leaving is different. Moyes no longer rates him (or possibly his attitude). So we ship him out, and loan someone fitter in.
The Pienaar saga worries me though. Is he worth £75k a week? No. But can we replace him for £1-2M? No. So with Arteta misfiring we've lost our next most creative midfielder to a Premier League rival. Again a quick (and small) profit is made to the detriment to the quality of the team.
I'd like to think someone will step up and fill Pienaar's shoes (Bily? Gueye? Arteta?) but we're still one man down and probably none the richer.
So how is our financial plight and pathetic transfer policy the fault of a 4-5-1 formation?
18 Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:24:21
The Chairman is an idiot and gets away with his lies over and over again while people say "he got rid off Johnson, mortgaged his house", blah, blah, blah... My last season ticket until Billy Bullshit has gone.
19 Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:13:57
We cannot invest in any new players, the reluctance to meet any wage increase, with the exception of one or two, and the slow apparent delay in bringing in loan deals, the wages being the stumblng block.
As all fans are well aware, the total lack of communication between board and paying supporters, that will be broken of course in April when next season ticket renewals are sent out.
For a chairman spending 24/7 looking for investment, we are in a sorry state.
20 Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:14:22
"Same for Yobo. He was loaned out with a view to selling for £6.5M at the end of the year when he is over 30 and never quite lived up to expectation. Profit after a decade of service is good business."
Were have you got the £6.5 million figure from? If it's true, I agree ? that is an excellent bit of business.
21 Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:41:28
Its looking as if Moyes is dismantling the old guard and removing some of the dead wood which is good, but as yet nothing is coming the other way, worse than that, we have let the Yak and prob James Vaughan go for nothing when it is now we need the money. Having loaned out Yobo, lost Gosling and sold Pienaar without even a loan coming in smacks of cost cutting and not team rebuilding.
I have a feeling we will see VIc and JH possibly on their bikes before Feb if someone makes an offer..
No Chairman or CEO telling us that funds are available if needed this year.. No accounts to tell us where the ring fenced money for Kirkby is / was, or why there is no money for players?
One gets the sneeky suspicion that it really doesn't matter who gets sold, Moyes isn't going to see a penny.
22 Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:45:11
23 Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:59:34
Young, fast, skillfull, English and able to score goals... Moyes better have a pretty good reason for not getting this guy at an absolute bargain price.
24 Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:02:31
"Can I just point out that there are 2 weeks of the transfer window left..."
I hope you are proved right but I still remember "judge us after 10/15 games..." etc
25 Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:09:27
ANy money for Kings Dock or any money for Kirkby that everton had to find was always an after thought - a 'we'll get it when we are asked for it' and the club would have raised it through selling assets, attracting investment to the new site, naming rights etc. Whether or not that would have succeeded is another argument. The fact is there was NEVER any money in the first place to be ring-fenced.
Kings Dock was similar ? the money never existed and could only be raised if things went Everton's way! They never, so the money didn't appear from places like investors, Paul Gregg etc. etc. etc. etc.
Going on to Lucas Neill ? I thought that was good business: got him as a stop-gap for free. Paid him well and 6 months left on his deal, sold him... all-in-all, we probably broke even but we got a decent experienced Prem player to plug a gap. I thought it was business well done.
It's a sad state of affairs when we can't provide any money at all for transfers but it is what it is and we can't seem to change it ? no matter what is written or how many people come on here and tell everyone who'll listen what a complete liar Bill Kenwright is...
Not supporting Bill wholeheartidly but why does everyone always point the finger at him? 72% of the club is owned by other people ? why aren't we pointing at them? Why don't they put their house in as personal guarantee against some of the debt? Just asking...
26 Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:07:37
2011: Out: Pienaar, Yakubu (loan), Vaughan (loan)
2010: Out: Neil; In: Donovan & Senderos on loan
2009 is an exception were the squad improved with Coleman and Jo (loan)
2008 Out: McFadden; In: Gosling, Gardner & Fernandes (loan)
2007: Out: Davies & Weir; In: Fernandes (loan)
2006 Out: Krøldrup and Bent; In: Stubbs (free)
2005 Out: Gravesen & Campbell; In: Arteta (loan), Plessis and Beattie
Shortage of income seems to result in need for selling players in January and at best replacing them with loan/free players. This January fits well in and this time Bill really has shaved the salary expences big time... and maybe the banks are off his back until the summer.
27 Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:17:23
28 Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:20:10
29 Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:30:42
Hopefully because something else is brewing...
30 Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:37:16
31 Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:35:50
Moyes may have become a legend in his own mind and feels he can make something of this squad or is he just biding his time until a bigger managerial post comes along. The record of 11 draws is not impressive and at this rate will still leave the Blues below halfway at the end of the season. That is a big decline from previous years and I am sure not gone unnoticed by the Board.
We shall see what happens over the next 12 days but the future looks grim in any event.
32 Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:28:18
Yes it is a shame to see Pienaar go, but it was blatantly obvious that he was going to leave. We aren't exactly in the same position as Sunderland are we ? they lose their leading goalscorer to Aston Villa with hardly any warning at all. Steve Bruce has about 2 weeks to find a replacement ? David Moyes has had about 5 months.
As regards loan signings, well we have brought in several loan signings in the past to good effect. There are players around now that could do a good job for us. Personally I am sure that Moyes will be bring a player or two in. He has had the time to look at potential replacements/ additions and I would rather he kept his cards close to his chest than make announcements to the media. Let's be a bit more patient before we start to hit the panic button ? as I said Sunderland are in far worse position losing their leading goalscorer so suddenly.
33 Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:03:10
"Bill wholeheartidly but why does everyone always point the finger at him? 72% of the club is owned by other people"
Who is the chairman?
Who is the spokesperson and face of the Everton board?
Who appointed Wyness?
Who scrapped the AGMs?
Who told us money was ring fenced?
Who told us 'the club has always been for sale'?
Who hasn't invested, or found a penny of investment for our club in 10 years of control?
Who told us it's Kirkby or oblivion?
Who told us to 'watch this space'?
Who said "wow"?
Who promises he's 'working 24/7'?
Who said there's no-one buying football clubs, before Sunderland, West Ham, Birmingham and Liverpool were sold?
Who said nobody wants to buy us, but then commented on average 6 parties a year contact him?
Who was "bored" of answering stakeholder questions?
...need I go on?
34 Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:01:16
And have £18 - 24M??? In the bank.
35 Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:22:35
36 Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:16:36
Are you serious??????????
37 Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:25:19
That article has to rank quite high on the shite pile the media have to say about us.
38 Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:28:35
Unfortunately too many fans have not got onto this and have predictably seen them as being greedy.
How many signs do people need that Kenwright has to go?
39 Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:24:41
I don't care who takes over from BK, but someone with a little bit of business acumen has got to be found, and found soon or this club is going to implode.
I don't really care that he went to watch us in the Boys Pen (which I doubt); he just needs to sell up and go.
40 Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:28:36
My personal highlights are:
"chairman skilled in negotiating and selling the merits of his club".
Hmmm, based on what? Our sponshorship deals put us alongside giants like Fulham. Nice negotiating!
"There is no massive debt at Everton"
Has Maddock seen our accounts? Because none of us have. But last reports suggested debts of £40-60M+
"It is hard to know if there is a string of potential buyers being turned away by Kenwright, but you have to doubt it."
... aside from the planning report for Destination Kirkby stating "the club's owners are not looking to sell".
41 Posted 19/01/2011 at 15:07:53
sorry to piss on your pararde pal but Kenwright did NOT put his house up as a personal guarantee for debt.
According to him (If you believe him) he mortgaged his house which was reportedly worth 1 million at the time to buy Johnsons shares in EFC for 20 million together with his then "lifelong" friend Paul Gregg who put up 8 million. Where the rest came from is anybody's guess but it is coincidental that Efc' s debt went up to over 20 million in the first year of Kenwright's tenure.
For the record (and this has been pointed out many times before) Kenwright has not put 1 penny of his own money into Everton Football club.
However that is not the main gripe with him in fact I personally am not a bit bothered about that.
What I am bothered about is his constant lies and incompetence.
There are no plans for the club and we just stagger from crisis to crisis while Kenwright holds onto his trainset.
42 Posted 19/01/2011 at 15:30:34
"Or do they demand that the current owners gamble on future success, by borrowing heavily to mortgage the future in the hope of even more success."
We already borrow on future gate receipts and TV revenue already as well as selling every available asset! More proof if anyone needed it that there are more tits working for them than on page 3. Oh, plucky ol Everton.....
43 Posted 19/01/2011 at 15:47:31
The time is right to strip down the team down to the core and rebuild. If you don't want to be at this fantastic club, then fine. Fuck off. Now is the time to rebuild.
I hated to see the Yak go, but realistically his wages wern't being repaid in goals, Pienaar was never going to stay and we made a profit on his purchase fee.
The team we built after Rooney's departure was built on people that wanted to fight for the club. The Bents, Kilbanes, Carsleys et al. Let's just get back to 11 men that want to fight for it on the pitch.
We can't choose our manager, chairman, kit man, physio....
Learn to support your team. If midtable is too much of of a stress, pick one of the top 4 or 5 to follow. Even if we are shit, I'm still impossibly proud to be a Blue.
COYB!! Now let's fuck up West Ham and put a smile on all our faces.
44 Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:04:17
Money does not guarantee you success but it sure helps.
However it does not make you an Evertonian to want to be happy with midtable mediocrity.
As a club we are much better than that and deserve better than Kenwright and his cronies.
I think it is an insult to the club and some supporters to say if you want success go follow City.
On your basis what is the point in playing football at all if you don't want to go out and beat other teams.
You can say what you like about Kopites but thay wouldn't put up with the shit that's going on at EFC right now.
45 Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:01:42
But how the fuck do we rebuild when there's no money to spend? Every revenue stream has been tapped and drained. The club now lives hand to mouth. What we sell pays off debts (god knows where they've come from). You say the squad should be "stripped down". Well we don't have an abundance of talent or numbers.
Yes let's stick it to West Ham, granted. But the long term focus should be on making Everton great again. A chairman & board with ambition and resources is essential to achieve that.
46 Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:14:11
Every week I want us to win. Every time I watch a game, but really when was the last time we went unbeaten over the course of a season?
I love my club for who they are; the Old Lady, the fans, the memories, the humour. I only wish that I had been blessed with some of the memories that you are so lucky to have.
47 Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:18:07
48 Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:24:14
Prudence isn't sexy, but you see what happens to the over spenders.
49 Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:30:45
50 Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:40:53
51 Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:45:32
first, that is mere speculation - ..probably still being paid...
second, even if it is true, it is normal. Teams rarely pay the whole cost of a player up front.
take this as an example: You get a player for £6 million, and agree a £40K a week deal. That means he will cost you £2 million a year in wages and £1.5 million a year in fees (£6 million over a 4-year deal). We do not usually pay over four years, they do in some European countries; but essentially the cost for the player is: £3.5 million a year. Not paying all the fee is normal, as is the probability that we are owed money from elsewhere for our sales.
On the good side: all clubs now have to submit a 25-palyer squad for each half year. That means we have no smaller a squad than anyone else. We can afford to lose Yobo, Yak and Vaughan: if it means we get one good £10 million+ striker - in my opinion, of course.
I also think we should give Bily a run of games. Good enuff on the left? if so, then keep him; if not, then sell on and use the money to get a winger. We have seven first-team defenders, three goalies, seven (eight including Gueye who has always looked good that I have seen) midfielders - we need nine, and not enough strikers. A healthy 22-player senior squad, and then top up with youngsters to get 25 should be the aim.
I expect us to lose Yobo, Vaughan, Yak, and Pienaar (has it gone though yet?), and get long deals on at least one striker and one winger between now and next August from that money. Having two fewer players from four out, two in, should help finance it. If not, we can panic.
52 Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:50:49
Pienaar was a good acquisition, paid his dues to the Blues, and has moved on for a better contract and probably Champions League next season. We can't hang the guy for that. Let's move on and hope a good loan replacement comes through for us or at the worst one of the current squad ups his game and fills the void. It was obvious however that Pienaar was not playing up to snuff this season so I don't think we will miss him.
53 Posted 19/01/2011 at 17:25:19
More mystified cries of where's all the money gone?
Don't you people get this by now?
It's the players bleeding the Club and all other EPL clubs dry! Our wage bill this year will be close on £65m.
Pienaar turned down regular football and £55k a week at Everton to be on £70k a week with splinters in his arse and only limited action at Spurs. Greedy bastard. Darren Bent, Robbie Keane - greedy bastards.
Kenwright and Co are far from perfect and I am no fan of theirs, but what are you supposed to do every time a player demands silly money? Pienaar was a good player for us, but clearly money is his God, despite what his T shirts may say. Don't know what happened with the Yak, but plenty of you on here have called him fat, lazy, etc so at least you can rest easy knowing your club is not paying him £3m a year to look like an elephant playing football.
54 Posted 19/01/2011 at 18:03:44
As many people have said above, think about how Everton fund the purchase of a player it's not like we have £20m sitting in the bank and pay it all over on the day of the transfer, most of the money will be in instalments this means there is a good chance that we have no money to spend because our budget in previous seasons wasn't £15m for Fellaini but £5m a year over 3 years reducing the money we have now.
Think about these loan deals, Yobo on say £40k a week sitting on the bench, thats £2m a year for sitting on the bench, before all the costs of social security and stuff on top. Same with Yakubu there is another £40k/£50k a week.
By not paying these wages all season maybe it will mean we can afford a transfer budget at the beginning of next season, or even pay instalments now.
I will admit that I have seen a bit of Hammill and he looked a good player, although this is in the championship. But if his transfer clause is £500k and Liverpool let him go last season? it must have been for a lot less than that so they can't have thought much of him. He may have been worth a gamble for the money though.
The Piennar deal only went through yesterday, let's give them a chance to sign someone before we slag them off. I am sure they have people in mind but it is not that easy.
It is frustrating we have no money but that's the way it is either way I will still love everton even if we are playing blue square north in a few years.
55 Posted 19/01/2011 at 18:35:05
56 Posted 19/01/2011 at 18:26:55
Also when Everton gave Arteta £75k per week, it became the new benchmark, and if one of the fringe players is on £20k per week, the agent states that they can't expect parity with Arteta, but £2k per week increase is reasonable. Multiply that by 10 for other players seeking to renegotiate and that?s a million the club?s got to find with no extra income. We are in a dark place but I think football in general isn?t looking too healthy.
57 Posted 19/01/2011 at 18:50:12
Expect Felli or Rodwell to leave this summer, the one who doesnt will leave the following summer and any money we spend will be from that
We may be the most loyal fans in the Prem but I seriously think Bill and Co think we will follow them anywhere. No forward planning will eventually lead to disaster as we wont have anyone left to sell... what a waste.
58 Posted 19/01/2011 at 19:23:06
59 Posted 19/01/2011 at 19:20:58
60 Posted 19/01/2011 at 19:34:25
I agree with you. I think Terry Leahy would be a great addition to the board. However, get ready for some stick from the significant amount of posters on this site who have him down as the anti christ.
61 Posted 19/01/2011 at 19:50:24
62 Posted 19/01/2011 at 20:03:55
I agree he is a very good businessman. Thats why i said i would be happy for him to be on the board.
63 Posted 19/01/2011 at 20:10:31
However i dont think skilled businessmen with contacts and a ruthless determination to be the best are very welcome on our board
Unless you count Jon Woods..........................
64 Posted 19/01/2011 at 20:19:58
Surely it wasn't bullshit, Bill?
65 Posted 19/01/2011 at 20:22:05
What we have is a chairman with no money and no idea how to run a football club. To some, it seems that the fact he is a fan and sheds the odd tear or two is enough.
This man loves being chairman of Everton more than he loves Everton. To anyone who still supports him I would ask, is this really the best we can do?
66 Posted 19/01/2011 at 20:48:30
67 Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:15:30
I'm not saying I blame Moyes ? perhaps we have a geat side and he's rights ? I just don't see it myself. Lot's of clubs sell players to finance new one - errrm...... Ronaldo for £80M. He was bought for £12.2M ? less than Fellani.
Best over the years is Wenger, Henry, Overmars, Petit, Viera ? more recently Fabregas, Nasri Adebayor.
To be fair to Moyes he has had gems too but only one we've converted into fabulous money is Lescott and that was against manager's decision. Moyes could look to sell and invest but chooses not to ? like I said fine, but I am judging him now after 9 years in job and sadlly, it looks like he is going backwards
68 Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:36:14
69 Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:33:58
It would be an excellent point you make except that we have seen record turnover every year for a number of years now.
If I'm not mistaken the new TV deal is also worth an additional £8M a season?
We turned over £100M last year, if player wages is £65M, then that means that running a football club costs £35M a year?
There's two ways to increase your budget. One is to make money, the other is to cut costs; we're doing both and were still skint???
70 Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:35:12
With regards to Utd selling Ronaldo, he was not sold to finance new ones at all, Ferguson has never spent the money, it went towards the interest on the leveraged debt the Glazers burdened the club with. With regards to Wenger, at last check, on ITV at the moment, Fabregas and Nasri are still at Arsenal so they definitely haven't been sold. If you care to listen to Talksport on most days of late, Gunners fans are screaming for Wenger to actually spend some money because his reluctance to purchase a keeper and centre half could be the difference in them winning the league or not.
Back to Moyes, you mention converting Lescott into fabulous money but fail to mention the profit on Rooney, and not to mention Andy Johnson and a few others Moyes has made money on. The trouble is, when you are looking in the bargain basement to start with it's always going to be difficult, don't forget, Wenger regularly spends multi millions on teenagers, their academy is probably worth more than our squad!!!
The blame lies squarely at the door of the Board due to their lack of strategy and planning for a sustainable business, after all, it has been suggested that Moyes won't even see any of the Pienaar money, so why sell any of the 'big' stars to only receive a fraction of the funds??
71 Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:50:05
However, I disagree with you re-reinvestment - like I said, only one we've made megabucks on is Lescott and he did get that money to re-invest - Heitinga 6m and apparently was on the most wages at the club, Billy 9m, Distin 6m (30 years plus).
Well Arteta could have been sold - let's say 20 million so you could get 3 players again.
Now , I actually wouldn't have sold him in the summer and just about still think arteta will come good again.
But , let's say sell Jags - 14m to Arsenaal - is he that much better than Yobo and could we have not used that money to but two other players ?
Best managers - Great managers have always wheeled and dealed - Kendal bought andy gray (past it) a binman in Southall, reserves sheedy etc etc. I simply don't believe these players do not exist - in fact I know that's not the case, perhaps even more potential now with football worldwide - again i give Wenger as an example, Toure and Fabregas I think we're signed for a combined £1million. It is possible and whilst London a selling point, I can nota agree those unheard gems went to Arsenal because it was a London club
72 Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:48:01
I haven't got a problem with footballers making container loads of wonga, except that it seems to make them ever more greedier (much wants more perhaps?) but when it impacts on the finances of a club, something must be done
73 Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:59:27
But he does moan he has no money........ well sell an asset of the club which he can control - the players.
Just because Board is shit does not mean that Moyes is automatically great - people say money is only deciding factor - I disagree. It's a huge factor but you can bridge the gap- indeed, moyes himself has shown it.
You mention Moyes made a huge profit on Rooney - well he did although Rooney had nothing to do with Moyes apart from contributing to him leaving as Rooney hated him.
Whilst Arteta, Piennar,Cahill, Jags, Coleman all good players Moyes has done fantastic to get - they are not , in my view, top top draw. The comparison with Wenger is that Viera, Fabregas, Henry etc etc are all world class .
The point I'm trying to make John is that I think Moyes is a good manager - but a great manager I don't (and not simply because of his signings) and it's starting to irritate me everybody saying how great he is because he has a shit board - the two do not automatically follow
74 Posted 19/01/2011 at 22:02:43
i. There are only so many prospects available and despite picking up some reasonable bargains in Arteta, Cahill and Pienaar as examples, they will eventually be sold to keep the business afloat and the process starts again after having built a reasonable side then back to year 0 and a slide down the table as a result of selling the players that gain you a higher finishing point. A half decent competitor's chairman would eventually look at that buying cheap policy and get their scouts to hoover the market - look at tax dodging bastard Rednapp as an example of this.
ii. Selling one player such as Lescott and buying multiple players in return does increase your squad size and potential strength but also adds the burden of a significant hike in the overall salary bill; 1 player on say 40k a week replaced by 3 or four players on 35/40k a week, your debt burden increases significantly with the costs of wages, repeat this ad nauseum and your business is swamped with more wages out than income in and QED your business goes pop
75 Posted 19/01/2011 at 22:06:32
But after the crap that we were told about signings over the summer and now the crap about loans this window, I've finally seen the light.
The downsizing of the squad coupled with no attempt to bring in anyone for the stalling attack, let alone youngsters or squad players is unforgivable.
76 Posted 19/01/2011 at 22:10:51
Yes, he has had his moments but his team selections and tactics make him a rather negative manager who lays the blame not on himself but always on the club's finances. He may claim to have had no part in the Rooney and Lescott saga's but has certainly played his part in other players coming in, some good and some poor. Everton need a change and it may never come until we get a money bags owner.
77 Posted 19/01/2011 at 22:19:25
But even so, could you not sell say Jags for £14M and keep Yobo and invest money or even better taking your point about wages and sell arteta for £20-25 million, not have to pay him £75k a week and get two players in ? or one player with huge potential (like another fellani who would be on low wages) and keep the change.
To be fair, it could be argued Moyes does this already ? i.e selling McFadden, Johnson for profit ? problem is proift is not that great on these players.
enough from me....
78 Posted 19/01/2011 at 22:12:14
However, I do think that he is being asked to do the job with at least one arm behind his back, if not two. Can you imagine the response from fans on here and local phone ins if Moyes was to sell Fellaini and say Rodwell, receive say 60% of the funds from the Board and buy 5 lower league players who he has to work with and develop, thus taking time once again, results suffer, back to square one etc, a point very well made by Gavin (74) point i.
I also disagree with those posters on here who suggest Moyes has no integrity or is not prepared to 'front' Bullshit Bill and the Board, I actually believe he has and indeed does. I mean, are we really suggesting that old Whiskey Nose doesn't challenge the Glazers because he backs them in public? No chance!
Until we are rid of Kenwright, Earl and the Shadow, the club will die a slow death, IMHO.
79 Posted 19/01/2011 at 23:53:10
80 Posted 20/01/2011 at 00:03:51
The point about Lucas Neill is well stated, Andy. In a short squad, a player such as him is invaluable, and the money we made/saved by letting him go is peanuts (no pun intended).
We are in decline, whether Moyes does manage to bring someone in or not. The manner of Pienaar's departure was typical of a club in decline (a top player refusing to sign a new contract).
Cheer up, lads, the Hammers are coming to town!;-)
81 Posted 20/01/2011 at 01:42:04
Same as when you work for a company and the writing is on the wall that they're in financial trouble (cutting back on the coffee budget is always a dead giveaway), you make a move before they start to not pay salaries (rumoured lately) or start laying people off (Yobo, Yak, Vaughan).
If you get out early enough you can get in with a good employer on good money but if you hang on too long you become part of a desperate distressed sale and bargaining power is lost.
82 Posted 20/01/2011 at 07:16:05
If you actually look at the Premier League there are very few clubs who can just go out there and buy who they want to. The great majority of clubs have to "balance the books" and when they sign a player another will be sold. Sunderland have Gyan - but they sold Kenwyne Jones to Stoke just before they signed him. The owners of Birmingham City breezed into St Andrews promising a big money transfer budget. If you look at a lot of the deals they have been involved with recently e.g. Bentley they are loan deals. Those Indian blokes who bought Blackburn promised a budget of £100m - who have they signed recently ?
We seem to think it is just Everton that has to be careful with the money. Look carefully enough and even Chelsea have restrained some of their spending.
Ideally I think the model for Everton to follow is that of Ajax and even Barcelona. Both clubs have a great record of "producing" their own players through a very good Youth Academy/Development programme however you want to call it. Ajax in paricular have gone down this route for decades now and it has been the means by which they have been able to compete with far richer clubs in Europe.
The main drawback as I see it is that whilst the young players at Everton - and indeed most Premier League clubs - have a good league set up at under 19 level when they get to the Reserves it appears to be very poor. I doubt whether Everton's Reserve teams will play 20 games in their league. It is in my opinion not as good as the previous set up of the Central League - for Northern and Midland teams and the Football Combination for the Southern and South Midland teams.
I think it little wonder that the likes of Ajax and Barcelona can bring through a lot of talented players when the second string at both clubs play in a better league than our Reserves. I think Ajax 2 play in the 3rd tier of the Dutch League and Barcelona Athletic in the 2nd tier of the Spnaish League.
If you look at some of the most successful Everton teams, there has usually been a good proportion of "home grown" talent that has been a major part of the squad. Also Howard Kendall was also noted ofr making quite a few "bargain buys" - players such as Southall and Sheedy were hardly headline making signings were they ?
83 Posted 20/01/2011 at 07:55:57
On turnover - I think it has doubled since 2004/5 which in any other business would be regarded as a very good performance and evidence of a strongly growing company. Unfortunately Premier League football isn't an ordinary business as it has employees who command massive wages and continually want more.
84 Posted 20/01/2011 at 08:30:57
transfer fees for Heitinga, Bily and Fellaini are probably still being paid...
first, that is mere speculation - ..probably still being paid...
second, even if it is true, it is normal. Teams rarely pay the whole cost of a player up front.
So firstly I'm speculating then you go to great lengths to back up my point about transfer fees being spread over time. Where did I say it was not normal for this to happen? deary me.
Secondly... after berating my "speculation" you suggest:
"We can afford to lose Yobo, Yak and Vaughan: if it means we get one good £10 million+ striker - in my opinion, of course." mmmmm. Speculation and opinion are one and the same in this instance are they not?
So we lose 2 strikers ( 1 who cost over £10million!) and a CB and we can replace them with 1 striker. 3 out 1 in, not really sustainable is it Roberto? unless we are planning to enter a 5 a side competition, that is just pure speculation on my part though...
85 Posted 20/01/2011 at 10:01:00
Kendall was able to construct a tream cheapily AND allowed retain all of his key players. What if after buying Southall in '81 the board decided to cash in to make a quick buck after 1 season? How much of an impact would that have made? Likewise losing Sheedy to a rival because we couldnt offer him the same wages as Peter Reid, for example. The way our board behaved then, is world's apart from the crap we put up with today.
Our kitbag deal is a joke. We were fed the line "Record £30M deal".In reality that's £30M over 10 years -which puts us alongside such movers and shakers like Fulham and Sunderland. Also the Park end development is being funded and driven entirely by kitbag. They aren't doing this for the love of EFC. So I'd love to know exactly what our cut is of this operation. If I had to guess I'd say it would be next to nothing. Which is a disgrace when we're desperate for new revenue and it's a development on our own fucking soil.
Our turnover has doubled since 2004 because the TV money has almost doubled in that period. No magic business acumen required.
86 Posted 20/01/2011 at 10:15:17
87 Posted 20/01/2011 at 10:20:20
Nonetheless, £5m is what we paid and that was the widely reported fee should a transfer proceed at the end of the loan period. However, as many of you will have read on this site today Fenerbache are now understood to be balking at that price, wishing to pay a mere ?3-4m at the end of the loan - probably a bit more realistic but there are other teams believed to be after Yobo so maybe we have the upper hand for the higher amount.
88 Posted 20/01/2011 at 12:11:27
The point I was making was that Sheedy and Southall were hardly household nameswhen we signed them. And as you say if Howard Kendall had been told after 1 year he had to offload them I doubt whether he would have made a great deal of money. Neville Southall - great player that he was took a couple of years to establish himself - he was loaned out to Port Vale in November 1982 I recall. Has Moyes been asked to offload Pienaar after a year ? I think you will find that we signed him in 2007.
89 Posted 20/01/2011 at 12:57:11
The club has never been given as much money from Sky as they have now. Yet we are skint. Our debt is an all time high despite us selling off Rooney and Lescott for nearly £50M.
We can't afford a single player, not even loans. When has it ever been this bad in the last 20 years?
The point I was making is that Kendall was under no pressure to sell off his big players. He had time and funds to build a team and then retain those players.
Dont avoid the point by arguing semantics about Southall. The point as you well understood, is that Kendall didnt need to offload anyone he didnt want to. Moyes is given neither the funds nor the resources to keep our better players. Let's see what happens next summer with Fellaini and Rodwell!
90 Posted 20/01/2011 at 13:23:34
91 Posted 20/01/2011 at 16:03:58
Allow me to refresh your memories; Leahy played a key part in promoting Destination Kirkby, convincing supporters to vote for a project that elevated the desires of Tesco above Evertons need. I suppose Terry is a blue and that is all that matters to you, but with one lifelong blue on board running the club in the ground why would you want an accomplice to complete the job. Leahy should not be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power at EFC.
92 Posted 20/01/2011 at 17:00:16
93 Posted 20/01/2011 at 18:39:44
The thing is he's a top, top businessman, something we haven't had for a long while.
94 Posted 20/01/2011 at 19:25:35
We have to stop all these parasites from ruining our club and get someone who is interested in developing EFC not Joe Bloggs Ltd.
95 Posted 20/01/2011 at 20:06:52
I'm sure i have read many posts from yourself were you have stated that we don't need a billionaire we purely need a board with vision and business acumen.
Then when one of the most successful british businessmen of the last 20 years is suggested your response is we don't want him and he is a parasite.
96 Posted 20/01/2011 at 22:31:48
He's not tainted by association it was his idea to use the club to promote Tescos interest in pushing through a retail development that broke all the rules. I don't care how successful he's been in business, he's is someone we can't trust.
97 Posted 21/01/2011 at 07:10:46
Semantics ? You ost me there. The point I was making was that after being at Everton for a year neither Kevin Sheedy or Neville Southall were the " finished article" - I doubt whether we would have made a great profit in selling either and in the case of Neville Southall I thought he was sent on loan to Port Vale to regain confidence. It was only really during the 1983-84 season that both started to fulfill their potential.
We may well need to whell and deal - but the point that I was making - which you seemed to have overlooked - is that we are not alone in having to do this. Most clubs are in the same position. Villa may have brought in Bent - a panic buy in my opinion - but they have lost the likes of Barry and Millner in the last year or so to help finance Houlier's moves into the transfer market. Sunderland signed the highly rated Gyan - but this was balanced by the sale of Kenwyne Jone to Stoke City.
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