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The signs are ominous

Comments (97)

For me, the sale of Lucas Neill signalled a turning point at Everton. A reasonable squad player went and we are in trouble should Baines get injured. Yes, we made a quick profit and saved his wages but it was less than £1 million. An ambitious club that wasn't totally skint just wouldn't have done it.

The Yak has gone without a replacement, same with Pienaar, same with Yobbo. Vaughan might be away too. This is desperate cost-cutting and what was in the view of many, our best squad for years is being dismantled. Bily was the last throw of the dice in our gamble for Champions League football.

One can argue that we failed for tactical and football reasons but the hard fact is we are now on the slide. It used to be amusing to see us linked with big names but that particular novelty has well and truly worn off. To give David Moyes the Pienaar money and ask him to make a wonder buy is like going to the bookies with your last tenner, hoping to win your mortgage arrears. It ain't going to happen.
Andy Crooks, Belfast     Posted 19/01/2011 at 08:43:44

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Howard Don
1   Posted 19/01/2011 at 10:52:22

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Not to deny your main point Andy, I'd agree the squad is looking potentially threadbare again, but I think your example of Neil is not the best. The guy was a last-minute stop-gap signing on a one-year deal to cover for our dire shortage at the back with Jags out and Lescott gone. He did ok but was offered a longer contract elsewhere and took it. Nothing more to it than that really.
Andrew Laird
2   Posted 19/01/2011 at 10:57:15

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I agree completely, we are in dire financial trouble. I had the same discussion with a couple of posters on another thread who assured me we had a very tight budget but would definitely not be going under. The backhanded loans have more than likely been called in from Bill's puppet masters and the transfer fees for Heitinga, Bily and Fellaini are probably still being paid. We are currently operating at maximum costs with only players as assets the business has left.

No doubt we will have to get used to having sperm on the bench for a long while yet. A sorry, sorry state indeed. I am waiting with intrigue as to when the accounts materialise to discover just what exactly is happening.
Tony Hale
3   Posted 19/01/2011 at 10:53:01

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Except when we sold Lucas Neill we went on a blistering league run that was only bettered by the top two!

Neill would've left for free in July anyway... otherwise Moyes would've signed him on a longer contract. We only signed him because of an injury crisis in our defence.

Yakubu has wanted to leave since the summer so better just let him go somewhere he can get into shape and prove he's worth more than the £4M that West Ham offered for him. As for Pienaar, it's always been a question of "when" he leaves rather than "if". He didn't wanna sign while we were in contention for Europe, he wasn't gonna sign now when we are now outsiders for European football next season.

We still have a decent squad and we're only on a slide cos Davey stuck to 4-5-1 for so long.
Sam Hoare
4   Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:07:10

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Not sure Lucas Neill should be in anyway related to something crucial in this club's history... But I see your point.

Would it be fair to say that we are probably in the bottom 3 now for spending power?

Luckily we still have some very good players and hopefully some decent youth coming through. We just need a manager who gets the best out of players and is able to do the most with small amounts of cash.
Anthony Hughes
5   Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:04:49

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Years of financial mismanagment is coming home to roost.

Off topic: I know they're only rumours but Muntari on loan? Why? Do we really need another central midfielder with defensive qualities? We have Fellaini and Rodwell to fill that role. I hope it is just rumour ? we have other roles which need filling with far greater need.

Chris Briddon
6   Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:12:28

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Can I just point out that there are 2 weeks of the transfer window left yet and you are already moaning about players not being replaced ? if the situation still applies on 1st Feb then fair enough but give them chance to sort it first please.
Tom Mallows
7   Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:14:54

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I forgot he had played for us actually! But I see your point ? we are basically a selling club masquerading as something else. Moyes's task now, until any sort of investment comes along (pigs might fly) is to buy young players and hope they have a sell-on value further down the line.

Sadly, though, I fear as soon as Moyes accepts this, he will leave, as that isn't where he wants to take the club.

Kevin Gillen
8   Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:11:55

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Good points well made, Andy. I counted ten out and four in over the Summer and now this transfer window sees another three out (Yakubu, Vaughan and Pienaar). The situation at the club is becoming untenable.

To hear Distin saying how unhappy they were to see Pienaar leave doesn't fill me with confidence. I can understand Moyes might want to see the back of Vaughan and Yakubu but surely not Pienaar over a contract dispute. It's all very gloomy.

I can't agree with Tony (3) about the formation although I understand and respect his analysis. To me the players this year (Howard in particular, Arteta, Bilyaletdinov, Beckford, Saha, Yakubu and Jagielka) have not performed whatever the tactics. We should be 10 points further on than we are.

Liu Weixian
9   Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:38:46

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Regardless of results on the field, we are definitely on the slide. We cannot keep our best players and the only additions to our squad are loanees. Meanwhile, other clubs are getting stronger and it will be hard to compete with them in terms of performance on the field and in the transfer market. Everton is poorly run as a business and drastic steps have to be taken to stop the rot.
Stephen Kenny
10   Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:41:06

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I think it was Gavin who mentioned that the "other costs" in the accounts have shot up from £2M to over £20M? I wonder if perhaps certain loans and guarantees etc have been called in by a not-so-mystery backer in the absence of a credible retail-led ground scheme?

The wage bill is seemingly reduced year on year, we aren't spending anything, and we are making more than ever before. Even the TV deal went up by £8M. The accounts are 8 months late so it seems some serious financial jiggery pokery is going on at EFC.

As long as Bill has got our best interests at heart, we will be fine. Keep the faith and watch this space... before you know it you will be thinking "WOW" at some of the players Moyesy has lined up.
Grant Smith
11   Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:43:42

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In my opinion, some people fail to see the impact of offering large long-term contracts to many of the first team squad. Take this example: we offer 5 players £40k a week on 5-year contracts; the outlay on that is £52 million over 5 years. If you take that figure against our total turnover and other outlay that sheds a little light into why we need to cut costs and cannot compete with large transfer fees.
Benn Chambers
12   Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:34:27

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I would seriously love to know what is going on at Everton at the minute! Things look BAD, very bad.

We have let Yak go for a small loan fee when Saha is not reliable enough in terms of game time. It leaves us with Victor and Beckford because we are about to let Vaughan go out on loan as well. I cannot believe he has let Yak go.

Yobo has gone and not been replaced, Yak has gone and not been replaced, Vaughan is about to follow and obviously Pienaar has now gone and we are dragging our fucking feet with replacements. The squad, which was not the biggest anyway, is now tiny and we are only 4 points above the drop!!

It's an absolute piss take and that lying twat Kenwright has a lot to answer for! What's the point in getting loan fees and transfer fees and reducing wages if we are not replacing the QUALITY that we have let go?!

We sold Neil for £1M, got £1M for Yobo's loan, same for Yakubu's and sold Pienaar for £3M... that's £6M brought in and surely Yak, Yobo and Pienaar combined must be taking home over £100k a week??!! More like £120k a week and still we haven't made so much as one move in the market?

Adam Hammill is about to go to Wolves for a tiny £500k and make no mistake he will be a star, and is scouse, but we make no move. There is money there to buy Charlie Adam who is an absolute class act and picked Liverpool apart on his bill; Larsson is cheap a la Pienaar; Santa Cruz goes to Blackburn on loan; Bentley to Brum when Moyes confirmed an interest and had Pienaar to use to make sure we got him on loan. Wright-Phillips is available on loan, Arry states O'Hara can go on loan... ALL PLAYERS THAT WOULD IMPROVE OUR FIRST 11 NEVER MIND SQUAD!! WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON??!!!!

Villa have literally just bought the goals that will keep them up and push them on and we are in serious shit! IF Charlie Adam is not here by close of window with a striker and wide player, then Moyes, Bill and Everton can fuck off and will I shite renew my season ticket. Moyes wanted at least 3 players before he sold Pienaar and let Yak and Vaughan go so now I make that 6 needed!! The Pienaar money is of no use at all unless it replaces him in some way. Otherwise we are weaker, less creative and in serious danger of getting into a relegation scrap, if we are not already!
Lee Mandaracas
13   Posted 19/01/2011 at 11:39:07

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We started the season fantastically well but didn't get the rub of the green in a number of games resulting in unexpected losses and draws. That killed confidence and now we are back with an emotion-sapping sense of deja vu. Things are starting to improve of late and the quality of play is slowly starting to return so there is still hope of life after Pienaar. I very much doubt he will have the success he craves with Spurs. The team might but he will be a bench warmer if they do succeed in all they pursue IMHO.

As for Lucas Neill, he was transferred in on a free when we needed reinforcements and sold on exactly four months later when we had recovered headcount - good business.

Same for Yobo. He was loaned out with a view to selling for £6.5m at the end of the year when he is over 30 and never quite lived up to expectation. Profit after a decade of service is good business.

Vaughan might be away but on loan with a view to a possible sale. That can be reversed if required and he is behind three other strikers so I think relieving some of the strain on the purse but keeping ownership for now is a good thing there. We can always reconsider the sale if he has a stormer with Celtic considering Saha's age.

Yakubu is a different matter. We should have sold him when the Hammers offered £6m and now their derisory, petulant slap in the face of reducing that offer to £4m is looking more realistic. Regrettable but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I was guilty of the same mistake at the time in thinking we should hold out and try to get £8m before letting him go. Error!

I believe when on form we have a superb squad - although the loss of Pienaar does mean we no longer have what is widely considered the best left sided pairing in the Prem. In truth, Pienaar's relationship with Baines will not be easily replicated, if it can be at all, for him or for us. I still think the glass is half full but maybe you just caught me on a good day ;o)
Allan Jones
14   Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:02:31

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I wanted Pienaar to stay but if you look at the contract given (£70k till he's 33) I think it would be stupid for Everton to offer that! By the time he hits 30 he'll slow down and probably start getting injuries galore. Whilst it hurts right now, it won't in the long run.

I get envious at the likes of Villa/Spurs splashing the cash but in all honesty, let them! They're spending money they haven't got and big mouth Harry has nearly bankrupted every club he's been at... I don't know what charm he has over Levy and the Spurs board but they have about 3 players for every position and in the case of Pienaar is probably 3rd in each of those positions.

Harry has made a loss on a load of players ? one being Bentley and I honestly can't see where they're getting the money from. He'll stay in charge for one or two more seasons, leave when the shit hits the fan for Spurs and manage England. For any success he's brought past clubs (if any), each club would rather be more secure. West Ham suffered ups and downs galore and I'm sure Pompey would swap their FA Cup for stability!

Sadly ? and probably something all Evertonians need to realise ? we are a club living within or means... Probably saddled by previous debt and still paying off previous transfers (Fellaini etc)...

Peter Warren
15   Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:09:20

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Lee ? you think we'll get £6.5M for Yobo... ok, good luck with that thought!

Lucas was on more than £50k a week ? talented in part but bad for team harmony and was always a stop gap buy on those wages.

Is the club ran well? ? I don't think so.

As for Piennar, I think Moyes / EFC gambled on two things: (1) he would have a great World Cup and inflate his value and sell him then; (2) we would get into Champions League with squad he assembled ? clearly nowhere near in hingsight.

Moyes has always been good at plucking gems ? one of his undoubted qualities ? I suspect he has somebody in mind, not as if Piennar leaving is unexpected.
Jeremy Benson
16   Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:22:09

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At first, I thought it was just usual squad changing but it does now appear that we are undergoing austeric "cost cutting" measures. I was most disturbed by Vaughan going to Celtic for a fee, when we really need striking back-up right here and now.

This season, we'll probably finish 12th or 13th and the cracks will be papered over. But what about next season? With no pot to do our business in, and no goal-scorers in our team, that usually equals relegation. Saha will be a year older (and probably just as injured), Anichebe may also have moved on for free (contract up in summer), Vaughan may be a permanent Scottish fixture. What does that leave us with? Nothing.

I am desperately worried for next season now. We need a quality incoming striker in the summer or we are going to be facing Championship football in the face.
Phil Martin
17   Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:09:48

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Tony Hale,

Lucas Neill was a solid performer for us ? at a time when had been leaking goals badly. The point is that we sold him just to make a quick £1M at the risk of stretching our already threadbare defence (no Jags or Heitinga remember). The fact we recovered and had a good finish to the season was irrelevant. It was good business in hindsight. But the fact we had to gamble like that just to make a quick buck is the cause for concern.

Yakubu leaving is different. Moyes no longer rates him (or possibly his attitude). So we ship him out, and loan someone fitter in.

The Pienaar saga worries me though. Is he worth £75k a week? No. But can we replace him for £1-2M? No. So with Arteta misfiring we've lost our next most creative midfielder to a Premier League rival. Again a quick (and small) profit is made to the detriment to the quality of the team.

I'd like to think someone will step up and fill Pienaar's shoes (Bily? Gueye? Arteta?) but we're still one man down and probably none the richer.

So how is our financial plight and pathetic transfer policy the fault of a 4-5-1 formation?
Andy Codling
18   Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:24:21

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I shall not be renewing my season ticket this year.,.. what's the point? We don't sign players and we show no ambition. I will wager Rodwell will be sold during the summer.

The Chairman is an idiot and gets away with his lies over and over again while people say "he got rid off Johnson, mortgaged his house", blah, blah, blah... My last season ticket until Billy Bullshit has gone.

Norman Merrill
19   Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:13:57

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I somethimes wonder how precarious our financial position is?

We cannot invest in any new players, the reluctance to meet any wage increase, with the exception of one or two, and the slow apparent delay in bringing in loan deals, the wages being the stumblng block.

As all fans are well aware, the total lack of communication between board and paying supporters, that will be broken of course in April when next season ticket renewals are sent out.

For a chairman spending 24/7 looking for investment, we are in a sorry state.

David Thomas
20   Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:14:22

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Lee,

"Same for Yobo. He was loaned out with a view to selling for £6.5M at the end of the year when he is over 30 and never quite lived up to expectation. Profit after a decade of service is good business."

Were have you got the £6.5 million figure from? If it's true, I agree ? that is an excellent bit of business.
Christine Foster
21   Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:41:28

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Andy in many ways I think you are right, the writing was on the wall at the end of the Cup Final for many of the team (Hibbert, Osman, etc..) But nothing was done and despite some excellent runs the cracks were beginning to show. The idiotic gamble with Kirkby didn't pay off and financially I do believe that a few loans have been called in as a result.

Its looking as if Moyes is dismantling the old guard and removing some of the dead wood which is good, but as yet nothing is coming the other way, worse than that, we have let the Yak and prob James Vaughan go for nothing when it is now we need the money. Having loaned out Yobo, lost Gosling and sold Pienaar without even a loan coming in smacks of cost cutting and not team rebuilding.

I have a feeling we will see VIc and JH possibly on their bikes before Feb if someone makes an offer..

No Chairman or CEO telling us that funds are available if needed this year.. No accounts to tell us where the ring fenced money for Kirkby is / was, or why there is no money for players?

One gets the sneeky suspicion that it really doesn't matter who gets sold, Moyes isn't going to see a penny.
Grant Smith
22   Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:45:11

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I think the biggest aspect of losing Pienaar will be the potential impact on the form of Baines who has been arguably our best player all season, which is in no small part down to the link on the flank with Pienaar. That said, people are over-reacting, our season barring an FA Cup miracle is as good as over and Pienaar was clearly not making such a difference that he was propelling us upwards towards Europe.
Sam Hoare
23   Posted 19/01/2011 at 12:59:34

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Adam Hamill for £500k (due to release clause).

Young, fast, skillfull, English and able to score goals... Moyes better have a pretty good reason for not getting this guy at an absolute bargain price.
Phil Bellis
24   Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:02:31

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Chris@6

"Can I just point out that there are 2 weeks of the transfer window left..."

I hope you are proved right but I still remember "judge us after 10/15 games..." etc

Jamie Rowland
25   Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:09:27

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Christine Foster (21) Where do people like your good self get this 'ring-fenced' money notion from.

ANy money for Kings Dock or any money for Kirkby that everton had to find was always an after thought - a 'we'll get it when we are asked for it' and the club would have raised it through selling assets, attracting investment to the new site, naming rights etc. Whether or not that would have succeeded is another argument. The fact is there was NEVER any money in the first place to be ring-fenced.

Kings Dock was similar ? the money never existed and could only be raised if things went Everton's way! They never, so the money didn't appear from places like investors, Paul Gregg etc. etc. etc. etc.

Going on to Lucas Neill ? I thought that was good business: got him as a stop-gap for free. Paid him well and 6 months left on his deal, sold him... all-in-all, we probably broke even but we got a decent experienced Prem player to plug a gap. I thought it was business well done.

It's a sad state of affairs when we can't provide any money at all for transfers but it is what it is and we can't seem to change it ? no matter what is written or how many people come on here and tell everyone who'll listen what a complete liar Bill Kenwright is...

Not supporting Bill wholeheartidly but why does everyone always point the finger at him? 72% of the club is owned by other people ? why aren't we pointing at them? Why don't they put their house in as personal guarantee against some of the debt? Just asking...
Åge André Michaelsen
26   Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:07:37

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Well - this is just at typical January on the Everton transfer front.

2011: Out: Pienaar, Yakubu (loan), Vaughan (loan)

2010: Out: Neil; In: Donovan & Senderos on loan

2009 is an exception were the squad improved with Coleman and Jo (loan)

2008 Out: McFadden; In: Gosling, Gardner & Fernandes (loan)

2007: Out: Davies & Weir; In: Fernandes (loan)

2006 Out: Krøldrup and Bent; In: Stubbs (free)

2005 Out: Gravesen & Campbell; In: Arteta (loan), Plessis and Beattie

Shortage of income seems to result in need for selling players in January and at best replacing them with loan/free players. This January fits well in and this time Bill really has shaved the salary expences big time... and maybe the banks are off his back until the summer.
Jamie Rowland
27   Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:17:23

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Sam (23) - his reason will be that Wolves beat us to it...?
Gavin Ramejkis
28   Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:20:10

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Chris #6, that's almost as galling as Doddy's annual "wait until ........" and choose your month for the squad to gel and start playing. Yes, the transfer window closes in two weeks time but guess what, we have lost three players NOW (Yobo, Yakubu and Pienaar), not in two weeks time, we are three players down right NOW.
Sam Hoare
29   Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:30:42

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Jamie- I read somewhere that given the choice Hamill would prefer to go to us. Which suggests we haven't lodged any sort of enquiry or bid.

Hopefully because something else is brewing...
Anthony Millington
30   Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:37:16

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It's really bad management that is costing us lots of money on the transfer front. Yobo, Yakubu, Gosling, Pienaar and now Vaughan all going for how much? Maybe around £10 million altogether? We're letting good players go at a price which we will have to at least double to find decent replacements. I think the loans out are in particular a bad idea, we'd be better selling these players instead when we can get a good price for them and have the money to spend on replacements.
Tom Bowers
31   Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:35:50

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My view of the situation (which may still change for the better) is that surely Moyes, knowing that way back after the West Brom debacle the squad was not good enough, had started to weigh up possible loan deals come January and negotiations would have already been in place certainly by now, Jan 19th. It would appear that he felt his squad was good enough and nothing at all happened and nothing will happen although we now have a little money to spend and a smaller wage bill.

Moyes may have become a legend in his own mind and feels he can make something of this squad or is he just biding his time until a bigger managerial post comes along. The record of 11 draws is not impressive and at this rate will still leave the Blues below halfway at the end of the season. That is a big decline from previous years and I am sure not gone unnoticed by the Board.

We shall see what happens over the next 12 days but the future looks grim in any event.

Michael Brien
32   Posted 19/01/2011 at 13:28:18

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Steven Pienaar signs for Tottenham ? well we didn't see that one coming did we??!!! It has to be the most expected transfer deal of the season. We have known for months now that he was going and where his likely destination was. In that time I would have thought David Moyes would have been able to put together a list of potential replacements and I am sure that he has.

Yes it is a shame to see Pienaar go, but it was blatantly obvious that he was going to leave. We aren't exactly in the same position as Sunderland are we ? they lose their leading goalscorer to Aston Villa with hardly any warning at all. Steve Bruce has about 2 weeks to find a replacement ? David Moyes has had about 5 months.

As regards loan signings, well we have brought in several loan signings in the past to good effect. There are players around now that could do a good job for us. Personally I am sure that Moyes will be bring a player or two in. He has had the time to look at potential replacements/ additions and I would rather he kept his cards close to his chest than make announcements to the media. Let's be a bit more patient before we start to hit the panic button ? as I said Sunderland are in far worse position losing their leading goalscorer so suddenly.
Phil Martin
33   Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:03:10

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@ Jamie #25,

"Bill wholeheartidly but why does everyone always point the finger at him? 72% of the club is owned by other people"

Who is the chairman?
Who is the spokesperson and face of the Everton board?
Who appointed Wyness?
Who scrapped the AGMs?
Who told us money was ring fenced?
Who told us 'the club has always been for sale'?
Who hasn't invested, or found a penny of investment for our club in 10 years of control?
Who told us it's Kirkby or oblivion?
Who told us to 'watch this space'?
Who said "wow"?
Who promises he's 'working 24/7'?
Who said there's no-one buying football clubs, before Sunderland, West Ham, Birmingham and Liverpool were sold?
Who said nobody wants to buy us, but then commented on average 6 parties a year contact him?
Who was "bored" of answering stakeholder questions?

...need I go on?
Brian Waring
34   Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:01:16

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Michael, I don't understand how Sunderland are in a far worse position. They have Gyan and Wellbeck, who are both scoring goals.

And have £18 - 24M??? In the bank.

Colin Fitzpatrick
35   Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:22:35

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Gavin [28] stop panicking, don't you know everything is hunky dory? Haven't you read David Maddock's appraisal of the dynamic duo? No, pull up a chair, enjoy......

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/david-maddock/Why-Everton-s-achievements-under-David-Moyes-and-Bill-Kenwright-are-far-more-impressive-than-anything-Manchester-City-have-done-with-all-their-billions-David-Maddock-column-article675933.html
Eric Myles
36   Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:16:36

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Yobo never quite lived up to expectations????
Are you serious??????????
Gavin Ramejkis
37   Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:25:19

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Colin thanks for that mate, it all makes sense now, we are all frustrated but will hunker down doffing caps whilst good old Uncle Bill and DM look after us all, bah humbug to Man City's millions and their place in the league and squad - christ the number of players Man City and Spurs don't play are greater than our current squad.

That article has to rank quite high on the shite pile the media have to say about us.
David S Shaw
38   Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:28:35

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I think Pienaar and Lescott seen that Everton failed to build and have gone to ambitious clubs.

Unfortunately too many fans have not got onto this and have predictably seen them as being greedy.

How many signs do people need that Kenwright has to go?
Steve Sweeney
39   Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:24:41

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Andy #18 ? We are a small minority who realise the damage that Bllly Liar has done to this club, the pot is empty. Like you I believe Rodwell will be sold in the summer for a pittance of his true worth and I would not be surprised if Arteta and Fellaini go as well to reduce the wage bill.

I don't care who takes over from BK, but someone with a little bit of business acumen has got to be found, and found soon or this club is going to implode.

I don't really care that he went to watch us in the Boys Pen (which I doubt); he just needs to sell up and go.

Phil Martin
40   Posted 19/01/2011 at 14:28:36

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Colin, wow that article is hillarity and dangerous inaccuracy combined.

My personal highlights are:

"chairman skilled in negotiating and selling the merits of his club".

Hmmm, based on what? Our sponshorship deals put us alongside giants like Fulham. Nice negotiating!

"There is no massive debt at Everton"

Has Maddock seen our accounts? Because none of us have. But last reports suggested debts of £40-60M+

"It is hard to know if there is a string of potential buyers being turned away by Kenwright, but you have to doubt it."

... aside from the planning report for Destination Kirkby stating "the club's owners are not looking to sell".
Jay Harris
41   Posted 19/01/2011 at 15:07:53

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Jamie#25
sorry to piss on your pararde pal but Kenwright did NOT put his house up as a personal guarantee for debt.

According to him (If you believe him) he mortgaged his house which was reportedly worth 1 million at the time to buy Johnsons shares in EFC for 20 million together with his then "lifelong" friend Paul Gregg who put up 8 million. Where the rest came from is anybody's guess but it is coincidental that Efc' s debt went up to over 20 million in the first year of Kenwright's tenure.

For the record (and this has been pointed out many times before) Kenwright has not put 1 penny of his own money into Everton Football club.

However that is not the main gripe with him in fact I personally am not a bit bothered about that.

What I am bothered about is his constant lies and incompetence.

There are no plans for the club and we just stagger from crisis to crisis while Kenwright holds onto his trainset.
Andrew Laird
42   Posted 19/01/2011 at 15:30:34

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The article in the Mirror is truly astonishing, no research done at all really by the tabloid hack. As well as Phil's quotes my favourite bit is:

"Or do they demand that the current owners gamble on future success, by borrowing heavily to mortgage the future in the hope of even more success."

We already borrow on future gate receipts and TV revenue already as well as selling every available asset! More proof if anyone needed it that there are more tits working for them than on page 3. Oh, plucky ol Everton.....
Giles Larkman
43   Posted 19/01/2011 at 15:47:31

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For the record, (being 32) I grew up with Everton eternally being in ominous situations. I hate to see my club go through the low points, but it is still my club and my team. If you can't hack it there is always Shiteh if success is all you care about. I want the best for us, but I'm a realist here, the last thing we won was 16 years. Realistically we should be satisfied with mid table. I understand 'nothing but the best' but the team of '85 was nearly 30 years ago now.

The time is right to strip down the team down to the core and rebuild. If you don't want to be at this fantastic club, then fine. Fuck off. Now is the time to rebuild.

I hated to see the Yak go, but realistically his wages wern't being repaid in goals, Pienaar was never going to stay and we made a profit on his purchase fee.

The team we built after Rooney's departure was built on people that wanted to fight for the club. The Bents, Kilbanes, Carsleys et al. Let's just get back to 11 men that want to fight for it on the pitch.

We can't choose our manager, chairman, kit man, physio....

Learn to support your team. If midtable is too much of of a stress, pick one of the top 4 or 5 to follow. Even if we are shit, I'm still impossibly proud to be a Blue.

COYB!! Now let's fuck up West Ham and put a smile on all our faces.
Jay Harris
44   Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:04:17

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Giles I am approaching 60 and haven't missed a season since I was 9 and have obviously seen some highs and some lows.

Money does not guarantee you success but it sure helps.

However it does not make you an Evertonian to want to be happy with midtable mediocrity.

As a club we are much better than that and deserve better than Kenwright and his cronies.

I think it is an insult to the club and some supporters to say if you want success go follow City.

On your basis what is the point in playing football at all if you don't want to go out and beat other teams.

You can say what you like about Kopites but thay wouldn't put up with the shit that's going on at EFC right now.
Phil Martin
45   Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:01:42

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Giles, I admire your passion. As someone the exact same age. I've only really known depression and failure as an Everton fan during my adulthood.

But how the fuck do we rebuild when there's no money to spend? Every revenue stream has been tapped and drained. The club now lives hand to mouth. What we sell pays off debts (god knows where they've come from). You say the squad should be "stripped down". Well we don't have an abundance of talent or numbers.

Yes let's stick it to West Ham, granted. But the long term focus should be on making Everton great again. A chairman & board with ambition and resources is essential to achieve that.
Giles Larkman
46   Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:14:11

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Jay, I certainly don't mean to insult, but in darker moments like this some people seem to thrive on our situation. As I stated I'm 32, if I'm honest, I can't really remember '85 - '86, the Everton I know is different to you as you have 28 extra years on me. I wish that I was lucky enough to have seen the Holy Trinity, but you can't brow beat me beacause I haven't.

Every week I want us to win. Every time I watch a game, but really when was the last time we went unbeaten over the course of a season?

I love my club for who they are; the Old Lady, the fans, the memories, the humour. I only wish that I had been blessed with some of the memories that you are so lucky to have.
Alan Clarke
47   Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:18:07

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Giles, how does he rebuild with no money? I've no problem with trimming the squad to rebuild but there's no 'Rooney money' to do it with. We're screwed because Kenwright has allowed the leaches to bleed our club dry.
Giles Larkman
48   Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:24:14

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Phil, thank you for understanding me! I meant that we rebuild by cutting down on our people who are not earning their extremely well paid wage.

Prudence isn't sexy, but you see what happens to the over spenders.
Andy Crooks
49   Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:30:45

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Giles, I'm certainly not thriving on this and I'd still go wherever we should end up. However, we're either skint or the club is under the most prudent stewardship in football. I'm guessing skint. It didn't have to be like this.
Giles Larkman
50   Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:40:53

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Don't get me wrong, we are fucking skint, but that's when you have to start counting the pennies.

Roberto Birquet
51   Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:45:32

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Andrew Laird: transfer fees for Heitinga, Bily and Fellaini are probably still being paid...
first, that is mere speculation - ..probably still being paid...
second, even if it is true, it is normal. Teams rarely pay the whole cost of a player up front.

take this as an example: You get a player for £6 million, and agree a £40K a week deal. That means he will cost you £2 million a year in wages and £1.5 million a year in fees (£6 million over a 4-year deal). We do not usually pay over four years, they do in some European countries; but essentially the cost for the player is: £3.5 million a year. Not paying all the fee is normal, as is the probability that we are owed money from elsewhere for our sales.

On the good side: all clubs now have to submit a 25-palyer squad for each half year. That means we have no smaller a squad than anyone else. We can afford to lose Yobo, Yak and Vaughan: if it means we get one good £10 million+ striker - in my opinion, of course.

I also think we should give Bily a run of games. Good enuff on the left? if so, then keep him; if not, then sell on and use the money to get a winger. We have seven first-team defenders, three goalies, seven (eight including Gueye who has always looked good that I have seen) midfielders - we need nine, and not enough strikers. A healthy 22-player senior squad, and then top up with youngsters to get 25 should be the aim.

I expect us to lose Yobo, Vaughan, Yak, and Pienaar (has it gone though yet?), and get long deals on at least one striker and one winger between now and next August from that money. Having two fewer players from four out, two in, should help finance it. If not, we can panic.
Tom Bowers
52   Posted 19/01/2011 at 16:50:49

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Okay guys, we all know money doesn't buy success (just look at the recent years at Anfield). Getting the right players, manager and coaching staff goes a long way. However, big money does give you much better options in the market and the Blues don't have that luxury. Players leave for better pastures, just like we laymen can leave our present employers for better money and conditions.

Pienaar was a good acquisition, paid his dues to the Blues, and has moved on for a better contract and probably Champions League next season. We can't hang the guy for that. Let's move on and hope a good loan replacement comes through for us or at the worst one of the current squad ups his game and fills the void. It was obvious however that Pienaar was not playing up to snuff this season so I don't think we will miss him.

Karl Masters
53   Posted 19/01/2011 at 17:25:19

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More moaning.

More mystified cries of where's all the money gone?

Don't you people get this by now?

It's the players bleeding the Club and all other EPL clubs dry! Our wage bill this year will be close on £65m.

Pienaar turned down regular football and £55k a week at Everton to be on £70k a week with splinters in his arse and only limited action at Spurs. Greedy bastard. Darren Bent, Robbie Keane - greedy bastards.

Kenwright and Co are far from perfect and I am no fan of theirs, but what are you supposed to do every time a player demands silly money? Pienaar was a good player for us, but clearly money is his God, despite what his T shirts may say. Don't know what happened with the Yak, but plenty of you on here have called him fat, lazy, etc so at least you can rest easy knowing your club is not paying him £3m a year to look like an elephant playing football.
Michael Ward
54   Posted 19/01/2011 at 18:03:44

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I think letting Piennar go can only be good business. Let's be honest we are not Man City, Chelsea or even Liverpool when it comes to the money we have at our disposal. Piennar wanted more that CHELSEA were willing to offer him. He hasn't been brilliant this season to get £3m for him and not pay him the £40k? a week he is on for the rest of the season has to be a good thing.

As many people have said above, think about how Everton fund the purchase of a player it's not like we have £20m sitting in the bank and pay it all over on the day of the transfer, most of the money will be in instalments this means there is a good chance that we have no money to spend because our budget in previous seasons wasn't £15m for Fellaini but £5m a year over 3 years reducing the money we have now.

Think about these loan deals, Yobo on say £40k a week sitting on the bench, thats £2m a year for sitting on the bench, before all the costs of social security and stuff on top. Same with Yakubu there is another £40k/£50k a week.

By not paying these wages all season maybe it will mean we can afford a transfer budget at the beginning of next season, or even pay instalments now.

I will admit that I have seen a bit of Hammill and he looked a good player, although this is in the championship. But if his transfer clause is £500k and Liverpool let him go last season? it must have been for a lot less than that so they can't have thought much of him. He may have been worth a gamble for the money though.

The Piennar deal only went through yesterday, let's give them a chance to sign someone before we slag them off. I am sure they have people in mind but it is not that easy.

It is frustrating we have no money but that's the way it is either way I will still love everton even if we are playing blue square north in a few years.
Brian Waring
55   Posted 19/01/2011 at 18:35:05

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Roberto we may have no smaller squad than anyone else, but it's the quality of that squad that matters.

David Hallwood
56   Posted 19/01/2011 at 18:26:55

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Well spotted Karl Masters#53. If this was any other industry the general consensus would be that the workers are getting wage increases without a corresponding rise in productivity, and because the firm hasn't had a rise in income, the wage bill has to be financed by other means.

Also when Everton gave Arteta £75k per week, it became the new benchmark, and if one of the fringe players is on £20k per week, the agent states that they can't expect parity with Arteta, but £2k per week increase is reasonable. Multiply that by 10 for other players seeking to renegotiate and that?s a million the club?s got to find with no extra income. We are in a dark place but I think football in general isn?t looking too healthy.


John Audsley
57   Posted 19/01/2011 at 18:50:12

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I'm waiting for a Blue Bill soundbite on the 28th possibly 29th where he states that "We are in talks with potential investors (not buyers) BUT its just a damn shame they won't be able to get the cheque sorted before the Transfer Window

Then silence.............

Expect Felli or Rodwell to leave this summer, the one who doesnt will leave the following summer and any money we spend will be from that

We may be the most loyal fans in the Prem but I seriously think Bill and Co think we will follow them anywhere. No forward planning will eventually lead to disaster as we wont have anyone left to sell... what a waste.
Paul Whittaker
58   Posted 19/01/2011 at 19:23:06

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I just hope next year when Terry Leahy leaves Tesco its to become the Chairman of Everton. Whatever you think of the way his supermarket operates, the man is by some distance the best businessman this country has seen for a long long time. Everton are in dire need of his intelligence, acumen and contacts. The business and admin personnel at the club wouldn't know what had hit them if he ever entered the building!
Kieran Fitzgerald
59   Posted 19/01/2011 at 19:20:58

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It's all well and good to say that between now and the end of the season we'll save so many millions in wages by offloading Pienaar and the Yak. However, it's looking very likely that our league position will be anywhere from four to eight places worse off than it was before come the end of the season. With each league place being worth 600k, we could be down at least a couple of million compared to the last couple of seasons if not more.
David Thomas
60   Posted 19/01/2011 at 19:34:25

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Paul,

I agree with you. I think Terry Leahy would be a great addition to the board. However, get ready for some stick from the significant amount of posters on this site who have him down as the anti christ.
Andy Crooks
61   Posted 19/01/2011 at 19:50:24

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David, Terry Leahy is a skilled businessman who could offer Everton a lot. Bill Kenwright isn't.
David Thomas
62   Posted 19/01/2011 at 20:03:55

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Andy,

I agree he is a very good businessman. Thats why i said i would be happy for him to be on the board.
John Audsley
63   Posted 19/01/2011 at 20:10:31

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Terry Leahy would be a superb addition to the board

However i dont think skilled businessmen with contacts and a ruthless determination to be the best are very welcome on our board

Unless you count Jon Woods..........................
Jamie Sweet
64   Posted 19/01/2011 at 20:19:58

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What happened to the money for that signing that was going to make us go "WOW!" I'm pretty certain we haven't signed that player yet!

Surely it wasn't bullshit, Bill?
Andy Crooks
65   Posted 19/01/2011 at 20:22:05

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Sorry, David, I didn't word that very well. I was agreeing with you. A chairman with money would be good. Chairman with talent and business acumen would be good even with no money.

What we have is a chairman with no money and no idea how to run a football club. To some, it seems that the fact he is a fan and sheds the odd tear or two is enough.

This man loves being chairman of Everton more than he loves Everton. To anyone who still supports him I would ask, is this really the best we can do?

Brian Waring
66   Posted 19/01/2011 at 20:48:30

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I wouldn't mind Leahy on the board, even though he was a tit all through the Kirkby debacle.
Peter Warren
67   Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:15:30

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Leaving Kenwright aside ? how do you make money........ errrm selling good young players (Rooney)... we could possibly sell Rodwell. Arteta was apparently wanted for £25M, Saha a season back about £8M, Jags £14M etc. Even Piennar, let's say min 6m. We did have saleable assets on the pitch but Moyes chose to keep them. Fine, but whilst Kenright may be shit or great ? don't just blame the chairman.

I'm not saying I blame Moyes ? perhaps we have a geat side and he's rights ? I just don't see it myself. Lot's of clubs sell players to finance new one - errrm...... Ronaldo for £80M. He was bought for £12.2M ? less than Fellani.

Best over the years is Wenger, Henry, Overmars, Petit, Viera ? more recently Fabregas, Nasri Adebayor.

To be fair to Moyes he has had gems too but only one we've converted into fabulous money is Lescott and that was against manager's decision. Moyes could look to sell and invest but chooses not to ? like I said fine, but I am judging him now after 9 years in job and sadlly, it looks like he is going backwards
Gavin Ramejkis
68   Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:36:14

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Peter #67, difference with Arsenal is that they have a very well organised and machine like business, giving Wenger funds for replacements. DM has been forced to offload talent and will more than likely have to do so again in the summer, where do the replacements come from? Are we just a feeding ground for the likes of Spurs and Man U and Shitty now?
Stephen Kenny
69   Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:33:58

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David 56

It would be an excellent point you make except that we have seen record turnover every year for a number of years now.

If I'm not mistaken the new TV deal is also worth an additional £8M a season?

We turned over £100M last year, if player wages is £65M, then that means that running a football club costs £35M a year?

There's two ways to increase your budget. One is to make money, the other is to cut costs; we're doing both and were still skint???
John Shaw
70   Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:35:12

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Peter (67) ? you really have got to be kiddin'. Am I right, an please correct me if I am wrong, you are suggesting that it is Moyes fault because he hasn't sold the only assets this once grand business has left, the more valuable players. If we are going down that route then we all need to accept that we are now just another poor low end Premier League club destined to fight at the lower end of the league. That policy is completely unsustainable if, like me, you wish to see a SUCCESSFUL Everton side on the pitch.

With regards to Utd selling Ronaldo, he was not sold to finance new ones at all, Ferguson has never spent the money, it went towards the interest on the leveraged debt the Glazers burdened the club with. With regards to Wenger, at last check, on ITV at the moment, Fabregas and Nasri are still at Arsenal so they definitely haven't been sold. If you care to listen to Talksport on most days of late, Gunners fans are screaming for Wenger to actually spend some money because his reluctance to purchase a keeper and centre half could be the difference in them winning the league or not.

Back to Moyes, you mention converting Lescott into fabulous money but fail to mention the profit on Rooney, and not to mention Andy Johnson and a few others Moyes has made money on. The trouble is, when you are looking in the bargain basement to start with it's always going to be difficult, don't forget, Wenger regularly spends multi millions on teenagers, their academy is probably worth more than our squad!!!
The blame lies squarely at the door of the Board due to their lack of strategy and planning for a sustainable business, after all, it has been suggested that Moyes won't even see any of the Pienaar money, so why sell any of the 'big' stars to only receive a fraction of the funds??

Peter Warren
71   Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:50:05

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Gavin - I agree EFC are a well run business and if you want my opinion on EFC, their business acumen is crap but has been well before Kenwright took over too.

However, I disagree with you re-reinvestment - like I said, only one we've made megabucks on is Lescott and he did get that money to re-invest - Heitinga 6m and apparently was on the most wages at the club, Billy 9m, Distin 6m (30 years plus).

Well Arteta could have been sold - let's say 20 million so you could get 3 players again.

Now , I actually wouldn't have sold him in the summer and just about still think arteta will come good again.

But , let's say sell Jags - 14m to Arsenaal - is he that much better than Yobo and could we have not used that money to but two other players ?

Best managers - Great managers have always wheeled and dealed - Kendal bought andy gray (past it) a binman in Southall, reserves sheedy etc etc. I simply don't believe these players do not exist - in fact I know that's not the case, perhaps even more potential now with football worldwide - again i give Wenger as an example, Toure and Fabregas I think we're signed for a combined £1million. It is possible and whilst London a selling point, I can nota agree those unheard gems went to Arsenal because it was a London club
David Hallwood
72   Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:48:01

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Stephen Kenny#69 to quote the old business maxim 'turnover is vanity, profit is sanity', there is no doubt that like most clubs in the prem, wages and transfers (and don't forget that a club can still be paying for the tranfers for years) as a pecentage of turnover is increasing at an alarming rate and shows no signs of slowing down. Hopefully the Platini plan will inject a bit of sanity into the EPL.

I haven't got a problem with footballers making container loads of wonga, except that it seems to make them ever more greedier (much wants more perhaps?) but when it impacts on the finances of a club, something must be done
Peter Warren
73   Posted 19/01/2011 at 21:59:27

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John - I agree board is a bigger problem than Moyes, Like Moyes says, you work with what you've got. Yes, moyes has a shit board - he can't do anything about it so get on with it.

But he does moan he has no money........ well sell an asset of the club which he can control - the players.

Just because Board is shit does not mean that Moyes is automatically great - people say money is only deciding factor - I disagree. It's a huge factor but you can bridge the gap- indeed, moyes himself has shown it.

You mention Moyes made a huge profit on Rooney - well he did although Rooney had nothing to do with Moyes apart from contributing to him leaving as Rooney hated him.

Whilst Arteta, Piennar,Cahill, Jags, Coleman all good players Moyes has done fantastic to get - they are not , in my view, top top draw. The comparison with Wenger is that Viera, Fabregas, Henry etc etc are all world class .

The point I'm trying to make John is that I think Moyes is a good manager - but a great manager I don't (and not simply because of his signings) and it's starting to irritate me everybody saying how great he is because he has a shit board - the two do not automatically follow
Gavin Ramejkis
74   Posted 19/01/2011 at 22:02:43

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Peter the business model is unsustainable, the reason for this is two fold:

i. There are only so many prospects available and despite picking up some reasonable bargains in Arteta, Cahill and Pienaar as examples, they will eventually be sold to keep the business afloat and the process starts again after having built a reasonable side then back to year 0 and a slide down the table as a result of selling the players that gain you a higher finishing point. A half decent competitor's chairman would eventually look at that buying cheap policy and get their scouts to hoover the market - look at tax dodging bastard Rednapp as an example of this.

ii. Selling one player such as Lescott and buying multiple players in return does increase your squad size and potential strength but also adds the burden of a significant hike in the overall salary bill; 1 player on say 40k a week replaced by 3 or four players on 35/40k a week, your debt burden increases significantly with the costs of wages, repeat this ad nauseum and your business is swamped with more wages out than income in and QED your business goes pop
James McGrady
75   Posted 19/01/2011 at 22:06:32

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I'll admit in the past I have defended Bill over a number of issues.

But after the crap that we were told about signings over the summer and now the crap about loans this window, I've finally seen the light.

The downsizing of the squad coupled with no attempt to bring in anyone for the stalling attack, let alone youngsters or squad players is unforgivable.

Tom Bowers
76   Posted 19/01/2011 at 22:10:51

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Agreed Peter, Moyes is a good manager but not the man to lead Everton to the promised land.

Yes, he has had his moments but his team selections and tactics make him a rather negative manager who lays the blame not on himself but always on the club's finances. He may claim to have had no part in the Rooney and Lescott saga's but has certainly played his part in other players coming in, some good and some poor. Everton need a change and it may never come until we get a money bags owner.

Peter Warren
77   Posted 19/01/2011 at 22:19:25

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Gavin ? I take the point particularly about wages and agree.

But even so, could you not sell say Jags for £14M and keep Yobo and invest money or even better taking your point about wages and sell arteta for £20-25 million, not have to pay him £75k a week and get two players in ? or one player with huge potential (like another fellani who would be on low wages) and keep the change.

To be fair, it could be argued Moyes does this already ? i.e selling McFadden, Johnson for profit ? problem is proift is not that great on these players.

enough from me....
John Shaw
78   Posted 19/01/2011 at 22:12:14

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Peter (73) - I have been very critical of Moyes this season in particular, some of his decisions and tactics have left an awful lot to be desired, so i certainly wouldn't call him a great manager.

However, I do think that he is being asked to do the job with at least one arm behind his back, if not two. Can you imagine the response from fans on here and local phone ins if Moyes was to sell Fellaini and say Rodwell, receive say 60% of the funds from the Board and buy 5 lower league players who he has to work with and develop, thus taking time once again, results suffer, back to square one etc, a point very well made by Gavin (74) point i.

I also disagree with those posters on here who suggest Moyes has no integrity or is not prepared to 'front' Bullshit Bill and the Board, I actually believe he has and indeed does. I mean, are we really suggesting that old Whiskey Nose doesn't challenge the Glazers because he backs them in public? No chance!

Until we are rid of Kenwright, Earl and the Shadow, the club will die a slow death, IMHO.

Gavin Ramejkis
79   Posted 19/01/2011 at 23:53:10

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Peter, both Yobo and Distin are getting on in years and would need replacing sooner rather than later. On a positive note thanks to the Moyes brand we have plenty of defensive players, but defence doesn't win games and we need a careful blend of defence, midfield supply lines and potent strike force. Getting that blend right is down to the chap on £65k a week, his mistakes this season far outweigh any positives.
David Israel
80   Posted 20/01/2011 at 00:03:51

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Althought there's still close to a fortnight to go before the window closes (as Chris # 6 rightly points out) , like I said on the "aloyalty" thread I'm more worried by the lack of signings than by the predictable departure of Pienaar, as well as by the diminishing numbers and quality of the playing staff.

The point about Lucas Neill is well stated, Andy. In a short squad, a player such as him is invaluable, and the money we made/saved by letting him go is peanuts (no pun intended).

We are in decline, whether Moyes does manage to bring someone in or not. The manner of Pienaar's departure was typical of a club in decline (a top player refusing to sign a new contract).

Cheer up, lads, the Hammers are coming to town!;-)
Eric Myles
81   Posted 20/01/2011 at 01:42:04

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David #38 = nail on head.

Same as when you work for a company and the writing is on the wall that they're in financial trouble (cutting back on the coffee budget is always a dead giveaway), you make a move before they start to not pay salaries (rumoured lately) or start laying people off (Yobo, Yak, Vaughan).

If you get out early enough you can get in with a good employer on good money but if you hang on too long you become part of a desperate distressed sale and bargaining power is lost.

Michael Brien
82   Posted 20/01/2011 at 07:16:05

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Brian#34 - Sunderland are in a worse position as the loss of Bent to Villa was totally unexpected. We have all known for months that Pienaar wa likely to go - David Moyes has had about 5 or 6 months at least to think of possible replacements whilst Steve Bruce has got 2 weeks. And I believe Welbeck is injured and likely to be out for about 5 or 6 weeks. There is also the matter of Tottenham receiving a percentage from any sell on of the player so Sunderland wont actually receive £24M in full.

If you actually look at the Premier League there are very few clubs who can just go out there and buy who they want to. The great majority of clubs have to "balance the books" and when they sign a player another will be sold. Sunderland have Gyan - but they sold Kenwyne Jones to Stoke just before they signed him. The owners of Birmingham City breezed into St Andrews promising a big money transfer budget. If you look at a lot of the deals they have been involved with recently e.g. Bentley they are loan deals. Those Indian blokes who bought Blackburn promised a budget of £100m - who have they signed recently ?

We seem to think it is just Everton that has to be careful with the money. Look carefully enough and even Chelsea have restrained some of their spending.

Ideally I think the model for Everton to follow is that of Ajax and even Barcelona. Both clubs have a great record of "producing" their own players through a very good Youth Academy/Development programme however you want to call it. Ajax in paricular have gone down this route for decades now and it has been the means by which they have been able to compete with far richer clubs in Europe.

The main drawback as I see it is that whilst the young players at Everton - and indeed most Premier League clubs - have a good league set up at under 19 level when they get to the Reserves it appears to be very poor. I doubt whether Everton's Reserve teams will play 20 games in their league. It is in my opinion not as good as the previous set up of the Central League - for Northern and Midland teams and the Football Combination for the Southern and South Midland teams.

I think it little wonder that the likes of Ajax and Barcelona can bring through a lot of talented players when the second string at both clubs play in a better league than our Reserves. I think Ajax 2 play in the 3rd tier of the Dutch League and Barcelona Athletic in the 2nd tier of the Spnaish League.

If you look at some of the most successful Everton teams, there has usually been a good proportion of "home grown" talent that has been a major part of the squad. Also Howard Kendall was also noted ofr making quite a few "bargain buys" - players such as Southall and Sheedy were hardly headline making signings were they ?
Graham Atherton
83   Posted 20/01/2011 at 07:55:57

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Leahy retires from Tesco this March 2011 so is 'available' very soon. It would be excellent to get him onto the board though I am sure he already contributes - the appointment of Kitbag, the new retail outlets and the new development at the Park End are evidence someone is drastically improving our retail operation!

On turnover - I think it has doubled since 2004/5 which in any other business would be regarded as a very good performance and evidence of a strongly growing company. Unfortunately Premier League football isn't an ordinary business as it has employees who command massive wages and continually want more.
Andrew Laird
84   Posted 20/01/2011 at 08:30:57

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Roberto#51 A rather whimsical comical response from yourself when you say:

transfer fees for Heitinga, Bily and Fellaini are probably still being paid...
first, that is mere speculation - ..probably still being paid...
second, even if it is true, it is normal. Teams rarely pay the whole cost of a player up front.

So firstly I'm speculating then you go to great lengths to back up my point about transfer fees being spread over time. Where did I say it was not normal for this to happen? deary me.

Secondly... after berating my "speculation" you suggest:
"We can afford to lose Yobo, Yak and Vaughan: if it means we get one good £10 million+ striker - in my opinion, of course." mmmmm. Speculation and opinion are one and the same in this instance are they not?
So we lose 2 strikers ( 1 who cost over £10million!) and a CB and we can replace them with 1 striker. 3 out 1 in, not really sustainable is it Roberto? unless we are planning to enter a 5 a side competition, that is just pure speculation on my part though...
Phil Martin
85   Posted 20/01/2011 at 10:01:00

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Michael Brien,

Kendall was able to construct a tream cheapily AND allowed retain all of his key players. What if after buying Southall in '81 the board decided to cash in to make a quick buck after 1 season? How much of an impact would that have made? Likewise losing Sheedy to a rival because we couldnt offer him the same wages as Peter Reid, for example. The way our board behaved then, is world's apart from the crap we put up with today.

Graham Atherton,

Our kitbag deal is a joke. We were fed the line "Record £30M deal".In reality that's £30M over 10 years -which puts us alongside such movers and shakers like Fulham and Sunderland. Also the Park end development is being funded and driven entirely by kitbag. They aren't doing this for the love of EFC. So I'd love to know exactly what our cut is of this operation. If I had to guess I'd say it would be next to nothing. Which is a disgrace when we're desperate for new revenue and it's a development on our own fucking soil.

Our turnover has doubled since 2004 because the TV money has almost doubled in that period. No magic business acumen required.
Grant Smith
86   Posted 20/01/2011 at 10:15:17

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We have lost the Yak ... who has wanted away for a year and had scored 1 goal all season, Vaughan on way out ... sadly has never and I doubt will ever fulfil his early promise due to the bad run of injuries, never a 1st teamer these days. Yobo .... error prone and has not been missed. So, to suggest that the only reason these players are being moved out is due to the financial need is incorrect in my opinion. Clearly it is a case of ... if you don't want to use them David then lets shift them out and save some money ... therefore killing two birds with one stone. Pienaar - making a reported profit or breaking even on a player who has given us four good years makes perfect sense when he would leave for free in May. If money was the sole issue then Rodwell would have gone, Arteta would have gone or another of the 5/6 players who could command big fees if sold. The club deserve some credit for running a tight ship, in difficult economic times and whilst doing so have shown committment to our squad by giving out numerous long term contracts this year.
Lee Mandaracas
87   Posted 20/01/2011 at 10:20:20

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To those questioning where I got the figure £6.5m for the transfer of Yobo to Fenerbache that was what I understood the deal to be when the agreement was drawn up. Retrospective Google searches bring up the prospective loan to result in a £5m transfer rather than £6.5m so perhaps I was recalling ?6.5m and confusing currencies.

Nonetheless, £5m is what we paid and that was the widely reported fee should a transfer proceed at the end of the loan period. However, as many of you will have read on this site today Fenerbache are now understood to be balking at that price, wishing to pay a mere ?3-4m at the end of the loan - probably a bit more realistic but there are other teams believed to be after Yobo so maybe we have the upper hand for the higher amount.
Michael Brien
88   Posted 20/01/2011 at 12:11:27

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Phil Martin #85 - Everton have not been a position to spend freely for nearly 20 years now - it has been a case of having to balance the books during that time e.g. the sale of Peter Beardsley just before that start of the 1992 -93. It is not just a feature of the "Kenwright Era". I would be very surprised and disappointed if we don't bring in a couple of players either permanent/loan signings. We have known for months that Pienaar was going to leave. And I would hope and expect that David Moyes would during that time have been able to compile a list of potential replacements.

The point I was making was that Sheedy and Southall were hardly household nameswhen we signed them. And as you say if Howard Kendall had been told after 1 year he had to offload them I doubt whether he would have made a great deal of money. Neville Southall - great player that he was took a couple of years to establish himself - he was loaned out to Port Vale in November 1982 I recall. Has Moyes been asked to offload Pienaar after a year ? I think you will find that we signed him in 2007.
Phil Martin
89   Posted 20/01/2011 at 12:57:11

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Michael Brien,

The club has never been given as much money from Sky as they have now. Yet we are skint. Our debt is an all time high despite us selling off Rooney and Lescott for nearly £50M.

We can't afford a single player, not even loans. When has it ever been this bad in the last 20 years?

The point I was making is that Kendall was under no pressure to sell off his big players. He had time and funds to build a team and then retain those players.
Dont avoid the point by arguing semantics about Southall. The point as you well understood, is that Kendall didnt need to offload anyone he didnt want to. Moyes is given neither the funds nor the resources to keep our better players. Let's see what happens next summer with Fellaini and Rodwell!
Liu Weixian
90   Posted 20/01/2011 at 13:23:34

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Next season we'll sell a couple of key players, offload Gueye, and use the money to bring in three promising players from the lower leagues. Kenwright will praise the squad to the skies and then we get knocked out of a cup competition by obscure team.
David O'Keefe
91   Posted 20/01/2011 at 16:03:58

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I can't believe that there are some idiots on here that want Terry Leahy on the board. Some of these individuals should know better.

Allow me to refresh your memories; Leahy played a key part in promoting Destination Kirkby, convincing supporters to vote for a project that elevated the desires of Tesco above Evertons need. I suppose Terry is a blue and that is all that matters to you, but with one lifelong blue on board running the club in the ground why would you want an accomplice to complete the job. Leahy should not be allowed anywhere near the corridors of power at EFC.
Andy Crooks
92   Posted 20/01/2011 at 17:00:16

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David, if Leahy should come to the club with no Tesco agenda then surely he would be an asset.You must admit that the club is badly run. There is bad news ahead and I would certainly like someone with proven business acumen there to pick up the pieces. I think we need to swallow our pride here.
Brian Waring
93   Posted 20/01/2011 at 18:39:44

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David, I did say he was a tit through all the Kirkby debacle.

The thing is he's a top, top businessman, something we haven't had for a long while.
Jay Harris
94   Posted 20/01/2011 at 19:25:35

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Totally agree with David O'keefe Tesco Terry would promote his buddy Green's interests before EFC.

We have to stop all these parasites from ruining our club and get someone who is interested in developing EFC not Joe Bloggs Ltd.
David Thomas
95   Posted 20/01/2011 at 20:06:52

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Jay,

I'm sure i have read many posts from yourself were you have stated that we don't need a billionaire we purely need a board with vision and business acumen.

Then when one of the most successful british businessmen of the last 20 years is suggested your response is we don't want him and he is a parasite.
David O'Keefe
96   Posted 20/01/2011 at 22:31:48

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Andy, the club is badly run, but Terry Leahy is tainted by his involvement in Kirkby and outside of the club he played a significant part in promoting this con to the fans.

He's not tainted by association it was his idea to use the club to promote Tescos interest in pushing through a retail development that broke all the rules. I don't care how successful he's been in business, he's is someone we can't trust.
Michael Brien
97   Posted 21/01/2011 at 07:10:46

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Phil#89 - do you really think Howard Kendall wanted to sell Peter Beardsley ? I recall reading an interview with Beardsley when he said that he thought he was being called in to have a chat about extending his contract. The news that Everton were considering an offer - initially from Derby County - for him came literally out of the Blue. If you look at some of the players that we signed during the early 1990's - in Howard kendall's 2nd period in charge - to say that some of them were "bargain basement efforts" would be an understatement. Preki - a decent enough player but not really a top Premier League player. Kenny Sansom ? Didn't we sign him not long after we lost Martin Keown ? That's another one Martin Keown - a bit of an inconsistent start to his Everton career - but then he really started to play well alongside Dave Watson. Do you really think Howard Kendall wanted to lose him ?

Semantics ? You ost me there. The point I was making was that after being at Everton for a year neither Kevin Sheedy or Neville Southall were the " finished article" - I doubt whether we would have made a great profit in selling either and in the case of Neville Southall I thought he was sent on loan to Port Vale to regain confidence. It was only really during the 1983-84 season that both started to fulfill their potential.


We may well need to whell and deal - but the point that I was making - which you seemed to have overlooked - is that we are not alone in having to do this. Most clubs are in the same position. Villa may have brought in Bent - a panic buy in my opinion - but they have lost the likes of Barry and Millner in the last year or so to help finance Houlier's moves into the transfer market. Sunderland signed the highly rated Gyan - but this was balanced by the sale of Kenwyne Jone to Stoke City.

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