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If there was no Moyes

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Really does anyone think that between now and when Moyes took over that we would have had any European tours? To visits to Wembley? A fourth place finish? A Carling Cup semi final? Our transfer record broke numerous times? Players in our squad that we bought for very cheap who now get called legends or are referred to as top players! Or made a lot of money for our club off shrewd signings... Lescott, Johnson!

Anyway my point is Moyes gets slagged a lot on here! Would anyone else of had all that with a net spend of whatever it is a season... 3 million is it? He has no resources, no backing, poor size squad, but a very good 11 when fit, which is again down to him, which is in my eyes why he's negative, he knows we can go places and not get beat and maybe snatch a win so he doesn't set his team out positively possibly.

Look at Blackpool... Positive football but they're on the way down, they don't have the players or squad to keep it up. Give Moyes credit for getting us where we are today, he may not take us any further, but he set our expectations this high with his brilliant management the 8 years before!

He makes mistakes and has faults who doesn't?! But he plays the way he does because he has to! Given backing, we would go far under Moyes! But he's never been backed! So him going isn't the answer!

I know some are going to slate this but there is no-one who will do a job as good as Moyes has done or any better given his working circumstances! We could've been another Charlton!
Chris  Hannon, Wirral     Posted 15/02/2011 at 12:23:59

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Shaun Brennan
1   Posted 15/02/2011 at 14:36:02

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Chris Hannon the trouble is, when credit is due, Moyes gets it. When credit is not due, too many people want to defend the man for his failures!

It works both ways.
Brian Waring
2   Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:01:00

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Chris, you say of Moyes, he has had "No backing " But before that
" Our transfer record broke numerous times " Doesn't that contradict your
' No backing ' claim?
Rob Dolby
3   Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:02:52

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The facts speak for themselves, Moyes has done well with the resources he has had, we have been on the verge of kicking on and possibly winning something a few times under his reign only for us to stumble and fall. We are treading water this season and unless we get some new faces into the squad we will be in exactly the same position next year. The majority give credit to Moyes for what he has done, though unless the club start trying to match his ambitions he will be off like a shot if the right job came around. For me its BK who needs to seriously look at his position at the club, he initially steadied the club though now he needs to move on and let someone else have a go at running the club. I am not calling for some Billionaire to invest, just someone who I think could get us feeling proud about the club again, Terrence Leahy maybe?
Gary Creaney
4   Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:13:43

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For now lets consider the Lescott money as "backing". Look what happened with it.
Distin - £5m in his 30s, error prone.
Heitinga - £5m, mercenary, crap as a defensive mid and considered too small to play alongside Jags.
Bily - £9m and in my opinion the greatest waste of money ever at Everton Football Club, absolute no-hoper.

If Moyes had millions upon millions to spend, why is it automatically assumed he would buy wisely when previous acquisitions directly contradict that theory. He's at his best when he takes a player who was once a bright star that lost their way and resurrects their career.

The negative tactis were once justifiable when we finished 4th, 6th, 5th and 5th and reached the cup final and had injuries galore, but for 2 seasons now we have went backwards so it is truly insane to continue on without changing it.
Tommy Coleman
5   Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:37:30

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By your argument then Chris, Moyes is the best manager in the World.

Except, he isn't is he.

He gets praise when we're playing well therefore he should get slated when we are playing as bad as we are.
James Cadwaladr
6   Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:46:47

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Stop living in the past Chris.
Kevin Tully
7   Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:51:26

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Sorry Chris, a brilliant manager would have won at Arsenal. Chelsea, Man Utd or Liverpool after nine seasons ? take your pick. He has set far too many records (bad ones) at Everton to even go into.

As far as his signings go, I will say he has a good record, and he is a hard worker.

The fact is, if I know how we play week-in, week-out, how easy is it for other managers?

I very rarely see him make a substitution, except when we go behind ? a trait of a very cautious man. This is probably the reason we have won nothing under him.

Sometimes your time is up... in this case, at the end of the season.
Tony J Williams
8   Posted 15/02/2011 at 15:52:10

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And if my Auntie had bollocks she would be my Uncle.

The fact is that we have no idea where we would be if another manager than Moyes had come in when he did. Granted he would probably be constrained by the same economic restraints but it is a futile exercise, as we will never know.
Ian Tunstead
9   Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:13:29

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Kevin that is a stupid argument, how many sides outside those teams you mention have beat the usual top 4 sides at their place? Not many, and of those who have how many have done it on more than one occasion prooving it wasnt just a freak fluke of a one off? Even less still.

We could mention Wovles getting a couple of good wins against the top teams but where has that got them exactly?

The reason...? Because they have more money, better players, better teams better squads better facilities, better resources better everything.
Dennis Stevens
10   Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:18:44

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A pointless "what if ..." article. Regardless of how impressed you may be with the performance of the manager since he took over 9 years ago, & that's a whole debate on it's own, it's obvious that he's failing now. Worse than that, he is now talking & acting like a man who accepts the inevitable failure of relegation. Where's the fighting spirit we need if we're to survive?

In the longer term any replacement for Moyes is unlikely to prove to be the solution to all the problems facing the club. However, in the short term a new manager might mean the difference between survival & relegation. Moyes seems bereft of ideas, he looks a spent force.
Matthew Lovekin
11   Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:38:41

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Chris, nobody is debating that Moyes is a good manager. However, he is not an excellent manager. His peak as a manager was a cup final and a 4th place finish. His low points are a 17th place finish, Shrewsbury, Oldham and now this season.

We all have highs and lows in our jobs. Moyes's is averaging out to be a mid-table Premier League manager.
Ian Tunstead
12   Posted 15/02/2011 at 16:54:25

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Matthew, if Moyes is a mid table manager who is he behind if you are going to average it out? The only ones I can think of is Ferguson, Wenger and who ever is manager of Liverpool or Chelsea.
Andrew Bentley
13   Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:03:01

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Think the issue that Chris is trying to raise is more to do with why the majority of folks on here focus on Moyes and not on Kenwright and the board.

There is something inherently wrong at the club at the moment and has been since last summer. Moyes cannot sign players that he wants as we have no money, not even to pay the loan wages of players by the looks of things. And does anyone seriously think that Moyes would have wanted to weaken his options by getting rid of the Yak - surely he had too as we need to get someone to cover his wages and ease our financial situation.

If someone new came in, there wouldn't be any change in our fortunes (long term) on the field as we need money to change the team and attract the players to make this club great again.

Sadly, football is no longer a sport anymore, but a business. The ones with the most money wins. We should not be focussing on Moyes, but on Kenwright and the club to change things (ie. sell/get new investment).

I'd much rather Moyes stays and he got some investment that he could actually spend on decent players than he went and we got another journeyman manager in to precede over an era of stagnation.

Oh and to the points above about the money that Moyes has had to spend and being backed - wasn't it Kenwright who famously said that "you don't need 3 million pounds to buy a 3 million pound player". Moyes can only get the players that Kenwright and his magic finances allows. The fact that we won't pay upfront (like City etc) severely restricts the numbers of clubs who want to do business with us.

I've always been a big Kenwright fan but over the last 18 months or so I've lost a lot of respect for him and think that he is to blame for the situation we find ourselves in today and the look of resignation on the likes of Moyes and some of the players.
Michael Brien
14   Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:11:37

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Chris - at the end of the 1972 -73 season when we were in the bottom half of the table for the 3rd season running, you could have used the same argument to keep Harry Catterick. 2 league titles an FA Cup win, FA Cup Finalists , appearances in Eurpean Competition. The past is the past. It's what is happening this season and not 2004-05 that counts.

Moyes has had nearly 9 years. Yes he has acheived a great deal but the acheivements of recent seasons isn't going to count this season is it ?

Moyes is a good manager - but he has shown himself to be very inflexible with his tactics and formations. He tends to make substitutions in reaction to events on the pitch, rather than making changes that will bring about a change. He needs to proactive and not reactive. Harsh ? Well lets not forget that whilst he has been good for Everton - Everton has been good for him. Pienaar took a lot of stick from fans regarding the contract - lets not forget that Moyes took quite a long time to negotiate his own deal.

And as regards backing - he has been able to break our transfer record about 3 times hasn't he? I think it's correct to say that Billy cost more than Arshavin. I think we have a good squad of players - assembled by Moyes that's true - but he doesn't seem to know how to get the best out of them. A bit like a an artist having all the materials at his disposal but then not knowing how best to use them.
John Daley
15   Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:11:14

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No offence Chris, but it's exactly the same old Moyes boosting we've heard countless times before. Yes, overall, he has done a good job but during his time at the club there has always been numerous missteps to take the gloss off the positives.

Now is the time Moyes needs to step up and truly prove his managerial metal because this shithole of a season simply cannot be allowed to get any worse. If he's as good as you think he is then we should have nothing to worry about. I really do hope that's the case. However, to my mind, Moyes looks like a man totally bereft of ideas at the moment. He stated the other day that he thought we were in a relegation battle from the third game of this season, and yet he still hasn't managed to pull us out of our free fall. I just don't think he's got the answers to what's gone so wrong. If you offered him the chance to finish the season tomorrow I think he would snatch your hand off because he knows that, this time, it is going to go right down to the wire.
James Stewart
16   Posted 15/02/2011 at 17:52:33

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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Andy Crooks
17   Posted 15/02/2011 at 18:01:03

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Chris , it's the fear that grips the supporters of David Moyes that gets me. Another Charlton, another Leeds etc. Who could or would have done a better job? Or, most annoying of all, be careful what you wish for. Well I certainly didn't wish for the plight he has guided us to now.
It seems to be an established fact among some Evertonians that for nine years he is the best we could have got. How do you know this? He is paid the salary of a top class coach but produces no top class coaching. Justmaybe someone with fresh ideas could do better . Might that just be possible?
Chris Hannon
18   Posted 15/02/2011 at 18:23:46

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How can someone become an excellent manager without money? Name one? Who has ever done more than Moyes with that amount of money? An excellent manager wins trophies ? how many have done that with no money?

Andrew Bentley, you're spot on: if Everton would have had Steve Gibson or Steve Morgan as chairman or Daniel Levy, Moyes could properly judged!

And Gary Creaney that money Moyes made himself: Distin ? player of the season so far, and Heitinga is a World Cup Final centre-half of quality ? he just isn't up to scratch at the moment! He can't sign guaranteed quality because of wages!

Dave Richman
19   Posted 15/02/2011 at 19:00:03

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@Andy (17). Spot on there mate.

I've been having exactly that argument with loads of Blues recently, and my stock answer was always pretty much what you said there. As well as "Well, we'll never know".

A cup final in 9 years isn't actually really all that great is it?

The body language of the players scares the shit out of me right now. Most of them just have a resigned look about them...... And that is something Moyes could do something about.
Kunal Desai
20   Posted 15/02/2011 at 18:50:11

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We have a manager who for the last nine years epitomises EFC, which includes those on the board, CEO and chairman and that is 'reactive' people. The word 'Pro-active' is something unheard of at Everton.
Stephen Kenny
21   Posted 15/02/2011 at 19:03:02

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Great managers take Aberdeen to European finals and beat Real Madrid, Great managers win European cups with sides like Notts forest because they told their players thier the best and they believed him, Great managers take a side on it's knee's and dominate english football until events conspire against them.

Good manager's get an ageing side and reduce it's average age, get them organized and hard to beat while signing a few bargains and increasing their value. They also make a few mistakes with big money signings that haven't come off.

We need a great manager, I have my suspicions about the next generation of managers who may achieve greatness, one thing thats for certain is it won't be David Moyes.
Chris Hannon
22   Posted 15/02/2011 at 19:14:53

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All them great managers you refer to are from the 70s and 80s, today is a totally different game, money talks nowadays! Back then it was a lot different! In today's climate I can't name no-one anyway.
Stephen Kenny
23   Posted 15/02/2011 at 19:49:07

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Chris,

Mourinho won the champions league with Porto.

Man Utd have always been a big, well supported club but Old Trafford and their Commercial Dept were not like what it is now. They built that due to fergusons success. Alex Ferguson sold his best players, replaced them with better, sometimes cheaper and trusted the kids when he needed to, he made stars out of all of them.

If a similar crop were at Everton under Moyes they would not go on to do what Beckham, Scholes, Giggs etc done wtih United, Moyes isn't that type of manager.

Arsenal were on the slide big time until Wenger walked through the door. He instilled a whole new culture and has basically built them a ground off the back of his player selling.

Owen Coyle took the worst team in the Championship into the premier league without a bean. IMO he would have kept them there too. He's now in the process of making a bunch of very average players into a good team. Who knows where it will end for him?

There are plenty who would have done a similar job to Moyes given the same resources, there are also people out there who would have done better, some who would have done worse. How many there are who could be doing worse now is up for debate, but IMO we are playing in a similar vein to a Gary Megson side.

We don't owe him anything other than a warm applause should he ever come back to Goodison. He put us on a solid footing but it will take an altogether different man to take us where we belong.
Joe McMahon
24   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:05:20

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Moyes may have not had millions to spend over the nine long negative years but he is one of the best paid managers in the country. I wouldn't trust him with money anyway. If Moyes was manager at Spurs, could you see them being as entertaining?, No neither could I.
James Flynn
25   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:18:21

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Of course Moyes thinks defensively. First, so do all the top Managers. Except, SAF, Wenger and them have funds to buy predators. There's no other difference.

For God's sake NY Yankees, buy this Club.
Michael Brien
26   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:07:09

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Chris #18 No money ? Maybe not as much money as the likes of Chelsea or man United but Fellani, Yak and Billy weren't exactly free transfers were they ? Arshavin cost less than Billy. Had Moyes signed him (Arshavin) when he first came to veryone's attention with Zenit St Petersburg I am sure that he wouldn't have done as well as he has. Moyes has some skillful players - who he stifles.

Moyes has had no money you say ? Well going by how he has misused his transfer budget thank goodness he hasn't had anymore to spend. He spends £11M on Yak - he is struggling to get back to fitness, clearly lacking in confidence - does he get any support or encouagement from Moyes ? No chance. The guy has no idea of man management.

How come the likes of Yak and AJ are doing well at the moment ? Could it be that they are playing for managers who show some belief in them ? Look at how many strikers Moyes has "got through" - have they all been bad players ? I don't think so. Compare Moyes to Holloway - he is always backing his players, encouraging them. He has had far less money to spend - look at how many strikers they have in their squad.

Moyes has become boring and predictable - you can read his tactics like a book. if his tactics were a book it would be called - "Tales of the Expected". Is this the same man who in the first game of his first full season - v Spurs in August 2002 used a 4-3-3 formation ?!!!He wants the players to "up a gear" - he should start with himself.
Michael Kenrick
27   Posted 15/02/2011 at 20:50:46

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The thing you seem to miss, Chris, is how close Moyes came to being successful: the Cup FInal... Best of the Rest, Champions League, etc. So this impediment you claim is hardly that really, is it?

He did a good job, for a while, picking out good talent and making something of them with very little money. But in the process, he did a very very bad job with striker after striker after striker... until you have exactly the situation we have now. A situation that is entirely of his making when you factor in the incredible wasted money that he has been allowed to spend.

As for your basic question, who else? ? it's completely ridiculous. He's been the manager for nine years... no-one else could have been the manager during that time,. so your question is totally and completely unanswerable. I struggle to comprehend the thinking process that allows reasonably intelligent people to even come up with this sort of fantasy, to be honest. I blame Championship Manger!
Ian Edwards
28   Posted 15/02/2011 at 22:08:23

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Moyes took us to a Cup Final and waved the white flag after 30 minutes. Did we have a shot in the second half?

In the League cup semi at home we slogged away for an hour with one up front and never created a chance and then went 2-0 down overall and the tie was over.

We have been beaten by Brentford, Shrewsbury, and Oldham in cup competitions.

Threw away Euro hopes with negative tactics at home to Villarreal. Let's not talk about Sporting Lisbon, Benfica, Dinamo Bucharest, and Standard Leige.

Is there any point qualifying for Europe if it's going to be chucked away with naive and bumbling management?
Kirk McArdle
29   Posted 16/02/2011 at 01:26:42

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"I blame Championship Manger!"

That's it Michael. Blame this whole debacle on Religion!!!!
Jamie Sweet
30   Posted 16/02/2011 at 07:15:30

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I blame Kenwright, Sky Sports, Moyes, Championship Manager, Chris's parents, Religion, Steve Round and Richard Dodd. In that order.
Mark Stone
31   Posted 16/02/2011 at 09:45:18

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"Chris Hannon the trouble is, when credit is due, Moyes gets it. When credit is not due, too many people want to defend the man for his failures!"

Maybe in the media to a certain extent, but certainly not on here. In fact, I see it the opposite way round, Shaun.

"Chris, you say of Moyes, he has had "No backing " But before that ? " Our transfer record broke numerous times "Doesn't that contradict your 'No backing' claim?"

It doesn't really, Brian. When is ther last time Moyes spent more on transfers than money recieved from outgoing sales? And where did the money from outgoing sales go? The likes of Lescott going out for, 4 or 5 times what we was bought for.

"He is paid the salary of a top class coach but produces no top class coaching."

Do you go and watch training, day in day out and observe his coaching methods Andy? Thought not.

"Chris, nobody is debating that Moyes is a good manager."

There are many, many people doing just than Matthew. For example Ian Edwards says later that he is 'naive and bumbling' and how many times have people come here stating that he is 'tactically inept'.

"No offence Chris, but it's exactly the same old Moyes boosting we've heard countless times before."

Just because you have heard it before doesn't make it wrong, does it? The same article about how shit he is seems to be re-written almost daily.

"Moyes took us to a Cup Final and waved the white flag after 30 minutes. Did we have a shot in the second half?"

The players playing shit against a much-better-than-us Chelsea side does not equal Moyes waving the white flag.

"Arshavin cost less than Billy"

No he didn't. Thats just a lie. His transfer fee from Zenit was Arsenal was undiscolsed but is commonly reported as £16.5m. That is £7.5m more than we paid for Bily. What is more, Bily is on about £50k/week and Arshavin is on about £80k/week. Even on £80k/week Arshavin took a pay cut to go to Arsenal so was always massively out of Everton's price range. Anyway, why didn't Owen Coyle sign Arshavin for Burnely if he's such a good manager, hey? Incidentally, how is Arshavin getting on these days?

What a load of bollocks.

"We have been beaten by Brentford, Shrewsbury, and Oldham in cup competitions."

Oh Moyes must be shot then. Having said that, Ferguson and Man Utd have been beaten by Leeds (League 1), Southend,

York City. Is Ferguson shit too?
Tom Hughes
32   Posted 16/02/2011 at 11:02:11

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Chris,
I actually believe Everton has been one of the most saleable clubs in the Prem over the last few years. It SHOULD cost in relative terms a tiny amount to acquire the shares for control of the club (at the current going rate for shares, only a few tens of millions).

What would a buyer get? Over the last few years he would've been getting the team nearest the top 4 in performance terms. A club with one of the largest fanbases, strongest sense of identity and history.

Also, contrary to your article, there is nothing stopping the club redeveloping GP apart from their own incompetence/inertia and complete lack of business plan.... Nearly all clubs, on far lower turnovers than us, have done precisely that. Look at what Wolves are planning, and what even mighty Brighton and hove Albion are doing, they completely leave this board in the shade.... there has to be a will.

City-planners have stated similarly, there are no unresolveable issues. The buyer would be getting a club that has finished only a few places below its city rivals for most of the last decade, and would be getting it for a fraction of the cost of that neighbour.... Surely this would be seen as a great opportunity and indeed challenge for those ambitious types to take the club beyond its illustrious rival.

As for DM, yes he has made numerous mistakes, and is finally looking completely wary of the whole charade and constraints he's had to work under. People say he's wasted cash when he's had it, when invariably he's received it 5 mins before the deadline when the shop's almost bare, and invariably he's had to replace one of his best, and lately he hasn't even been able to do that much.... Plus, let's be honest... EVERY manager (including your Wengers and Fergies even) have made BIG mistakes in the transfer market.

Bottom line is he's had us hovering just below the big spenders more often than not. I think he's earned some Leeway (I could be wrong tho). Problem is, it's looking like the robbing of Peter to pay Paul method has run its course... all at a time when some other clubs have had lottery wins. None of which is DM's fault.

Dale Forbes
33   Posted 16/02/2011 at 09:50:22

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Michael, John & Stephen have put things admirably. Let's not forget Harry Redknapp at West Ham, Portsmouth, Southampton & now at Spurs. He's proved he can work with almost nothing and produce results in style. Or think of Martin O'Neill at Leicester.
David Mathieson
34   Posted 16/02/2011 at 11:11:07

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Mark Stone #31:

"Chris, you say of Moyes, he has had "No backing" But before that ? "Our transfer record broke numerous times." Doesn't that contradict your 'No backing' claim? It doesn't really, Brian. When is the last time Moyes spent more on transfers than money received from outgoing sales? And where did the money from outgoing sales? The likes of Lescott going out for, 4 or 5 times what we was bought for.?

How much is Arsene Wenger?s net transfer spend throughout his time at Arsenal? Very close to Moyes?s... yet Wenger is light years ahead of Moyes and if he was at Everton he would do a far better job, no doubt.

?He is paid the salary of a top class coach but produces no top class coaching."

?Do you go and watch training, day in day out and observe his coaching methods Andy? Thought not?

You do not need to go and watch training everyday to be of the opinion Moyes is not a good coach, watch on Saturday and you will see the same mistakes over and over again.

"Moyes took us to a Cup Final and waved the white flag after 30 minutes. Did we have a shot in the second half?"

?The players playing shit against a much-better-than-us Chelsea side does not equal Moyes waving the white flag?

Typical deflecting blame from Moyes, would you care to tell me why Jacobsen was on the field for 45 minutes in the Cup Final? Hibbert should never have started and Neville should have been at rightback. Moyes bottled it and cost us the game with Rodwell sat on the bench; funnily enough, Moyes has near enough killed Rodwell?s development now as well.

"We have been beaten by Brentford, Shrewsbury, and Oldham in cup competitions."

?Oh Moyes must be shot then. Having said that, Ferguson and Man Utd have been beaten by Leeds (League 1), Southend, York City. Is Ferguson shit too??
Ferguson has been at United a lot longer than Moyes at Everton. Moyes has exited the cup competitions more times to lower league opposition already than Ferguson ever will or has. The Leeds game I am sure was the first time they have went out at the 3rd round under Ferguson?s Management. To even compare ex-Preston defender Moyes to Ferguson in football terms is ludicrous. They?re both Scottish ? after that, the comparison ends abruptly.

Mark Stone
35   Posted 16/02/2011 at 12:25:29

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"Ferguson has been at United a lot longer than Moyes has been at Everton"

Very true. But what is your point? The Southend game was 2006 and the Leeds game last year. In 2007-08 they lost to lower league Coventry in the first round of the Carling Cup. In 2003-04 they lost to then lower league West Brom in the 4th round of the Carling Cup. During all of which Moyes was Everton manager.

"Moyes has exited the cup competitions more times to lower league opposition already than Ferguson ever will or has."

In addition to the four I have mentioned above there is also of York City, and did they get beat by one of the Bristol teams in the mid-nineties. How many is that alltogether? And how many for Moyes? Pretty sure its closer than you think!

"The Leeds game I am sure was the first time they have went out at the 3rd round under Ferguson?s Management. To even compare ex-Preston defender Moyes to Ferguson in football terms is ludicrous. They?re both Scottish ? after that, comparison ends abruptly."

Well they are also both Premier League managers (!) and the comment was made in response to a suggestion that Moyes is shit because he has been beaten by several lower league teams in the cups. To pick the best manager in the league ? or some might say the world ? and list a number of times when he has suffered the same fate is not at all ludicruos. Funnily enough, in your first response to me you compare Moyes to Wenger. Is it not ludicrous when you do it?

Mark Stone
36   Posted 16/02/2011 at 13:02:22

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"How much is Arsene Wenger?s net trasnfer spend throughout his time at Arsenal? Very close to Moyes?s yet Wenger is light years ahead of Moyes and if he was at Everton he would do a far better job, no doubt."

What a well thought out, reasoned response. Tell me, David, how do the net salaries, and salary caps, of Everton and Arsenal compare? And could Moyes afford to compete for a young player with Arsene Wenger, based on salary alone, regardless of transfer cost? Incidentally I also think Wenger is a fantastic manager (although he hasn't won anything for a while, like). Do you think he would come to Everton? No, me neither.

"You do not need to go and watch training everyday to be of the opinion Moyes is not a good coach, watch on Saturday and you will see the same mistakes over and over again."

I do. Every week. And sometimes decisions frustrate me (subjectively) as much as they do anybody. But there is a lot more to coaching than which sub to bring on and when on Saturday afternoon. I wouldn't comment on his abilities as a coach as I've not watched him coach.

"Typical deflecting blame from Moyes."

I'm not defending Moyes here, I'm just pointing out the bollocks that people are spouting. Read back through everything I wrote in my original post. Not once do I 'defend' Moyes.

"Would you care to tell me why Jacobsen was on the field for 45 minutes in the Cup Final? Hibbert should never have started and Neville should have been at rightback. Moyes bottled it and cost us the game with Rodwell sat on the bench, funnily enough Moyes has near enough killed Rodwell?s development now as well."

I think you answer your own question. Jacobson came on because Hibbo was having a bad game. Hibbert should never have started? That's your opinion, but where is the relevance between Hibbo starting and Moyes raising the white flag after 30 mins? I also would have liked to have seen Rodwell play in the final. Bit of a long shot to suggest that the only reason that we got beat was because he didn't come on, isn't it?
David Mathieson
37   Posted 16/02/2011 at 15:51:42

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"Ferguson has been at United a lot longer Than Moyes"
My point was Moyes has exited the cups more times to lower league opposition than Ferguson has in a shorter period of time, if not he has certainly exited the cup competitions at the first hurdle far more times than Ferguson ever has. Brentford Shrewsbury Oldham Blackburn 4-1 at home 1st round exits and Bucharest 5-0 first round record European loss for us.

?Well they are also both premier league managers (!) and the comment was made in response to a suggestion that Moyes is shit because he has been beaten by several lower league teams in the cups?
Moyes and Ferguson may well both be premier league managers but the comparison is minimal I would not take everything you read literal you tried to bring Ferguson down to Moyes? level, not happening. Ferguson works at the top of the game something Moyes can only dream of Moyes has never been at the top as a player or manager. Ferguson is probably the best manager ever Moyes is not even a ?top four? Everton manager of all time.

What a well thought out, reasoned response. Tell me, David, how do the net salaries, and salary caps, of Everton and Arsenal compare?
I bet their wage budget is not massively different to ours and if Moyes had done the business when it mattered ie FA Cup, Vilareal, ten men Liverpool last year we would be very close on the wage budget especially considering cost of living between London and Liverpool. Say Eveton?s highest paid players Heitinga and Arteta £75000 a week Arsenal?s top earners are what? Like a £100000 a week?

? I also think Wenger is a fantastic manager. (although he hasn't won anything for a while, like). Do you think he would come to Everton? No, me neither
I did not suggest he would come to Everton just he would do a far better job than Moyes if he was here and he is in a different league to Moyes.

?I think you answer your own question. Jacobson came on because Hibbo was having a bad game. Hibbert should never have started? Thats your opinion, but where is the relevance between Hibbo starting and Moyes raising the white flag after 30 mins? I also would have liked to have seen Rodwell play in the final. Bit of a long shot to suggest that the only reason that we got beat was because he didn't come on. Isn't it. Hey. Hmm?
I really can?t see how I answered my own question, asking how a no mark out of favour Jacobsen got 45 minutes in a cup final. Every man and his dog new Hibbert would get tore apart in that game
even Stevie Wonder could see it. Rodwell should of started with Neville at the back and things like that do change outcomes of games ask Fred Pickering and Mike Trebilcock not so far fetched to suggest is it? Hmm.
Mark Stone
38   Posted 16/02/2011 at 17:04:29

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"I bet their wage budget is not massively different to ours and if Moyes had done the business when it mattered ie FA Cup, Vilareal, ten men Liverpool last year we would be very close on the wage budget especially considering cost of living between London and Liverpool. Say Eveton?s highest paid players Heitinga and Arteta £75,000 a week Arsenal?s top earners are what? Like a £100,000 a week?"

You'd be very wrong then. In 2010 Everton spent just over £54m on salaries. Arsenal who spent just over £110m. So the difference is about £56m ? or in simple terms their salary budget is more just more than double ours. That is massively different to ours. Arsenal's top earner (Fabregas) is on £140,000 which is just £10,000 short of being double what our top earners make. Incidentally, the £54m Everton spent on salaries is roughly the same as what Arsenal spent in 2001
Mark Stone
39   Posted 16/02/2011 at 17:34:16

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"you tried to bring Ferguson down to Moyes? level, not happening. Ferguson works at the top of the game something Moyes can only dream of Moyes has never been at the top as a player or manager. Ferguson is probably the best manager ever Moyes is not even a ?top four? Everton manager of all time"

I'm well aware of Moyes record as a player. Fergusons playing career wasn't exactly glittering. Nor indeed Wenger. So I don't really see the relevance of that. I completely agree that Ferguson and Wenger. In no way by pointing out that all managers - even the best - have slip ups against lower league teams (and more commonly than you might think!) am I trying to 'bring anybody down' to anybody else's level. Your interpretation is wrong.

"I did not suggest he would come to Everton just he would do a far better job than Moyes if he was here and he is in a different league to Moyes".

Overall Everton have the fifth best record in the premier league since Moyes took over. Given the financial restrictions we have there is any way that we could improved on that (i.e. had the fourth best record), regardless of whether Moyes, Mourinho, Ferguson or Wenger were in charge. That is not saying I agree with all of his decisions - but nobody would have made us into a top four team with those salary restrictions. Mayeb Wenger would have won a cup? Can't even win one with Arsenal at the minute, can he!
David Mathieson
40   Posted 16/02/2011 at 18:48:35

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If Arsenal spent nearly double on wages than we did it is because success breeds success. If, like I said, Moyes took his chances when he had them, then the gap would not be as big and the London clubs always have to pay more in wages than other clubs by at least 20%. The national average wage is around 30% lower than the average wage in London. The other 30% in my opinion is lost revenue from Moyes not taking his chances ie FA Cup Champions League qualifier, Europa League.

?Overall, Everton have the fifth best record in the Premier League since Moyes took over. Given the financial restrictions we have, there isn't any way that we could improved on that (i.e. had the fourth best record), regardless of whether Moyes, Mourinho, Ferguson or Wenger were in charge.?

Never heard so much rubbish in all my life, you could not brown nose Moyes more if you tried. Tottenham have a better record over us in the league since Moyes has been here and have actually been to a cup final or two and won (I can?t remember them 4th bottom either). Wenger built his club and wage structure himself with his youth policy and eye for a player. If Moyes went to Arsenal when Wenger did there is no way Arsenal would be the club they are now. Wenger style of football embarrassed Moyes?s best team 7-0.

I dread to think what another ten years of Moyes would do to Everton. If Evertonians had any ambition or bottle, Moyes would have gone a long time. Liverpool wouldn?t put up with it and neither should we, main reason we are an also-ran in the Premier League era, we accept shit and have too many fans who accept utter rubbish and defend Moyes, like you.

Mark Stone
41   Posted 16/02/2011 at 19:34:23

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"Tottenham have a better record over us in the league since Moyes has been here and have actually been to a cup final or two and won. (I can?t remember them 4th bottom either.)"

No. Since March 2002, Everton have accrued more points than any other club apart from Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool. Check the data on statto.com, you will be surprised.

"Never heard so much rubbish in all my life, you could not brown nose Moyes more if you tried."

Cite one statement I have made which is 'brown nosing' David Moyes. To the contrary I have admitted I sometimes get frustrated by his decisions. Other than that I have just stated facts without opinions.

"Wenger built his club and wage structure himself with his youth policy and eye for a player".

Agreed. What is your point? Are you discussing this with someone other than me?

"If Moyes went to Arsenal when Wenger did there is no way Arsenal would be the club they are now."

Maybe so, but if Arsene Wenger had joined Everton in 2002, Everton wouldn't be the team that Arsenal are, either. Although they'd had a bad start under Rioch, the Arsenal team he inherited (eg players like Seaman, Bergkamp, Wright, Adams, Platt, Bould, Dixon, Winterburn, Merson, Keown and Parlour) were a lot better than the Everton team Moyes inherited!

"Liverpool wouldn?t put up with it and neither should we, main reason we are an also ran in the premier league era we accept shit and have too many fans who accept utter rubbish and defend Moyes like you"

Bollocks. Absolute bollocks. I've not stated a single word of opinion in defense of Moyes or his tactics. I have merely stated facts.

You are having an argument with what you think a Moyes apologist would say ? not with what I am actually writing. You don't seem to have the capability to read what I am writing objectively. For that reason I shall not waste any more time on you.
David Mathieson
42   Posted 16/02/2011 at 21:19:44

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"No. Since March 2002, Everton have accrued more points than any other club apart from Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool"

Everton have the most top flight points of all time- does that make Everton the most successful team in English football? errrr no! Not about points where you finish! Moyes does not have the best record in the league outside the mentioned teams for final places and has no trophies. Not really been successful then has he? As well as achieving nothing of mention in Europe just humiliating record European defeats.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You have defended Moyes and put false praise on him like above; you have not ?merely stated facts? Clearly you must have trouble understanding the difference between fact and opinion such as above.

?You are having an argument with what you think a Moyes apologist would say - not with what I am actually writing.?

Really? No, sorry you?re telling lies. O and by the way good result for Arsenal today Bruce Rioch set them up for 15 years plus he is an all time legend.

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