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A Liverpool Apology?

Comments (59)

I see Dogleash is in the papers today saying how the RS deserved to be punished for the Heysel Tragedy. This in itself is quite an admission as I've not heard much along these lines before from the Red camp. However, he then goes on to say that Everton were punished too "and they were innocent". Is this the nearest we will ever get to an apology from that lot?

I have always felt that the 5-year ban was the start of the impoverishment of our Club and a root cause of the crap we now find ourselves in. They had the financial backing to get through their six years out of Europe, we did not. However, if we had been able to compete regularly at that level (which was a fair bet at that time) the last 15 years could have looked very different.
Steve Guy, Harrogate     Posted 17/02/2011 at 13:35:12

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David Crowe
1   Posted 17/02/2011 at 15:04:13

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Wouldn't really say we're in 'crap' at the moment. 10 years ago if you offered any Evertonian this they'd have snapped your hand off.
Paul Olsen
2   Posted 17/02/2011 at 15:29:48

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Ten years ago any Evertonian would have snapped my hand off for offering them a relegation scrap?

Wasn´t that exactly where we were 10 years ago?
Dave Lynch
3   Posted 17/02/2011 at 15:42:03

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Hmmmmm.... Get the feeling that he may be trying to build a few broken bridges between the two teams... Shared stadium anyone? Or am I looking too deeply into this?
David Price
4   Posted 17/02/2011 at 15:40:36

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Heard a similar interview with Dalglish a while ago, he said Maggie Thatcher took the English clubs out of Europe and that UEFA only banned Liverpool. Can't remember if that was the case.

Slightly off track but on the same vein as one rule for one etc, didn't we have to play Spurs in the Carling Cup last season on a Tuesday night after playing on the previous Sunday, so how come we couldn't have played Chelsea in mid-week, or are the "big clubs" exempt for playing two games in three days?

Julian Wait
5   Posted 17/02/2011 at 15:44:39

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Have to say it is a fairly balanced view from the man. Sure as hell beats the crap that FSW used to spout.

I respect his message here. Succinctly put. He is right to focus on the loss of life as the primary issue.

It's not exactly an apology but then as a player / manager back then, I am not sure it was his responsibility to apologise for the behaviour of the fans.

I do think a formal acknowledgement by the RS of the impact of Heysel / the Heysel ban on Everton, coupled with a restoration of mutual respect between the clubs (and less of the "small club" talk) would go a long way to restoring some of the pre-1985 atmosphere and mutual success.

It also would, ironically, make Everton MORE attractive to investors... ahem, buyers... because we would be seen as being part of the Merseyside heritage of football.

Bottom line is that, when Everton and the RS are arguing like spoiled children, no-one gets any ice-cream... if we work together with Liverpool to restore some civility into the relationship, then that has to cascade to the fans and ultimately, I think, makes Merseyside football more interesting, potentially more attractive financially, and perhaps makes both of us more successful in the long run. Not taking a position here on a shared stadium, but clearly it would be more tenable in such an environment.
Julian Wait
6   Posted 17/02/2011 at 15:53:09

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@Dave #3 ? burying hatchets for purpose of shared stadium is a possibility, I guess.

I think it was as much the journalist took the tack of "poor Kenny missed out on Europe" and KD (rightly) said that others lost much more. Much, much more, to varying degrees.

Even Everton's lost opportunity was insignificant compared to the tragic loss of life.
Dave Lynch
7   Posted 17/02/2011 at 16:02:14

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Totally with you on that one Julian.
Compared to loss of life nothing in football compares.
Gavin Ramejkis
8   Posted 17/02/2011 at 15:57:58

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It took the RS a decade or so to even acknowledge Heysel in any official form with an apology, the ill feelings grew significantly between the two clubs and were fanned when that bog eyed bastard Houllier started his public rants about us, this was followed by Beneath Contemptus, the ban destroyed Everton as a club financially when we had at the time one of if not the best team in Europe of it's time.

Thatcher is the daughter of a shopkeeper but from day one had ideas above her station about herself and a hatred of the working classes, ideas she repeatedly enforced whilst she cosied up to the bourgeoisie... the miner's strike being the one which I hate to this day, the most when she ordered horse-mounted police to charge unarmed miners striking to feed their families. Football was still predominantly seen as a working class sport and another easy target.
Shaun Brennan
9   Posted 17/02/2011 at 16:18:18

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I'm going to take a more cynical approach.

Kenny didn't choose to talk about it. He was asked about it.

What else could he have said?

They left the apology to the RS local offical newspaper (The Echo).
Ian Kearney
10   Posted 17/02/2011 at 16:18:23

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Well said, Gavin.
Dave Lynch
11   Posted 17/02/2011 at 16:26:58

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Gavin ? You've just stirred up emotions that I haven't felt for years! I am going to piss on her grave when she dies.
James Cadwaladr
12   Posted 17/02/2011 at 16:41:28

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Take any prejudice away because of his affiliation with them and in Kenny Dalglish you have got a decent honourable man which has again been proved in the way he has handled the media since his return.

As much as I hate it, the man is a credit to the game and Merseyside and (slate me as much as you like) so is Carragher.

I hate that they have any affiliation to them though.
Gareth Humphreys
13   Posted 17/02/2011 at 17:05:06

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Dalglish didn't have to mention Everton but he did so fair play. The only people who really suffered were the 39 people themselves and their families.

With regards to the suffering Everton encountered then lets not drop the woe is me crap. At the time of the ban there was one club primed to deal with it because they were reigning champions and had the best squad of players.

Every other club was playing catch up but, due to mis-management from top to bottom over the next few years, EVERTON FOOTBALL CLUB FUCKED IT UP. Not liverpool, not Maggie Thatcher, not UEFA. Everton.

Ian Kearney
14   Posted 17/02/2011 at 17:12:29

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I cant put Carragher in the same bracket I'm afraid James, I found his views on the derby one-eyed, and a bit self serving.
James Cadwaladr
15   Posted 17/02/2011 at 17:22:52

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Ian, see your point and agree to an extent but let's look at the bigger picture, without prejudice: the amount he does in and around the city for underprivileged kids is great, we supply his foundation and I know for the campaign manager exactly how much effort and money he puts into it.

The grace he also spoke with after the Chelsea game was also impressive. He just hates Everton. I hate him for that and that he turned into a red but credit where credits due eh?
Martin Mason
16   Posted 17/02/2011 at 17:13:04

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Gavin, emotional garbage mate. It was nothing to do with miners or working people. Heysel was the last in a long line of bad incidents involving hooligan British fans abroad and Europe was sick to the back teeth of it. Thatcher did what had to be done to avoid Uefa doing it with a much bigger fanfare.

Thatcher was also the greatest thing that ever happened to the UK working classes having overseen the largest transfer of wealth to us ever in the form of council house sales and privatisation shares. She was a true Blue of the highest order.

Ian Kearney
17   Posted 17/02/2011 at 17:28:30

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Not saying there's no credit due, I even met him a few times when I was younger because he came in a resturant I worked in, never once came across as a big head. I was also pleased to see him nail his colours to the mast regards Andy Burnham.

I just felt that there was a lack of honestly or objectivity with his derby comments, they certainly won't have helped relations on what can be a dangerous derby day atmosphere, but I'm sure it helped him shift a few more books.
Andy Codling
18   Posted 17/02/2011 at 17:43:40

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Martin, you are obviously one of these people who likes to get a reaction from others with ridiculous statements, so let me oblige you: stop talking out of your arse.
Alan Williams
19   Posted 17/02/2011 at 18:05:14

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Maggie was one of the best PM's we have ever had, rather have her anyday than Hatton and Blair!! All the miners had to do was get a national ballot and the government wouldn't have been able to take them on, ask NUM why they didn't??? COYB
Lee Courtliff
20   Posted 17/02/2011 at 18:06:11

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If we had never been banned from Europe nearly 30 years ago yet we stiil found ourselves in the same situation as we do now, who would be to blame? I think we should just let it go. Remember all the money we spent in '88? If those transfers had worked out, we could have been champions by the time football was invented in 1992! We can't just hide behind Heysel. A lot more has gone wrong since then.

By the way, I only found out recently that, during the 94-95 season, we spent more money than any other club in the Prem league. Doesn't that sound like a different world compared to now? Oh how I miss the 90's!!

Gavin Ramejkis
21   Posted 17/02/2011 at 18:08:06

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Martin, Italy has had maritime flares fired into opposition fans, take it you've never read about the Ultra's or simply blocked it from memory?

Barcelona fans threw a pigs head at Louis Figo on the pitch?

Leeds fans being stabbed in Turkey?

Yet neither of these and many worse didn't lead to a European wide ban, the bans of English teams was imposed from this country, ask why Scottish teams didn't face the ban?

Still garbage, I fucking doubt it. Thatcher always was and always will be a fucking pariah of the highest order single handedly destroying heavy industry and manufacturing and starting the "fuck you, I'm alright jack" society of self self self, the repercussions of which are still with us today ? bankers screwing bonuses with finance which has impacted the global economy, think you need to go and clean your moat.
Nick Entwistle
22   Posted 17/02/2011 at 18:29:38

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Maybe if Kendall didn't jump ship to Bilbao we wouldn't have struggled through the 90s.

Will be watching the game tonight to hopefully see an RS loss. Avoiding the karaoke though.
Eugene Ruane
23   Posted 17/02/2011 at 18:29:13

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I believe there is a Film being made about Thatcher starring Meryl Streep, maybe Heysel will be featured in it.

By the way, wonder if they'll wait for Thatcher to kick the bucket before releasing the film (just so it has a happy ending).
Mike Green
24   Posted 17/02/2011 at 18:18:56

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In comparisson to the deaths of 39 innocent people and the affect that will have had on their families our grievances ring a little hollow dont you think? Besides much of our grievances are pure speculation aren't they? Anybody wouldve thought we'd won the European Cup not qualified for it.

Any apology should start and stop with the victims families, bringing football into it just demeans it for me. It's not important.
Mike Hughes
25   Posted 17/02/2011 at 18:47:42

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There are kopites I hate far more than Dalgliesh.

I cannot stand the following RS:-

John Barnes, Jason McAteer, Margaret Thatcher, Robbie Fowler, Fred and Rose West, Gary Glitter, Jimmy "Shithouse" Case, Cilla "Placky Scouser" Black, that woman who lobbed the cat into a bin, Jamie Redknapp, Nick "Judas" Barmby, Ricky "Gobshite" Thomlinson, that brown-nosing twat who wrote Brookside, Ringo "No Talent" Starr, Rick Parry, Rafael Beneathus, Houllier, those paedophile nursery workers, Jimmy "Shithouse" case etc etc.

Come the great day they'll all be lined up against the wall.
Chris Hannon
26   Posted 17/02/2011 at 18:59:31

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Typical Liverpool, 25 odd years later! Just like they put a plaque up in the kop 20 years later because they drew Juve!
Chris Leyland
27   Posted 17/02/2011 at 19:27:00

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Let's get this straight, we can blame who we like for the demise of our club since the 80s and we can blame Thatcher for the demise of society and the growth of a self-centred society but to me there is only 2 people we can really blame for all these things and more...

Hibbert and Osman.
Micky Norman
28   Posted 17/02/2011 at 19:32:42

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Dave @11. See you in the queue soon I hope.
Dennis Stevens
29   Posted 17/02/2011 at 19:27:18

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Mike Green, you're quite right, football really shouldn't be a matter of life & death.

It also leaves a bad taste in the mouth to read the posts of people who have leapt onto their political soap-box!

Chris Leyland
30   Posted 17/02/2011 at 19:41:22

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On a serious note, people are right when they say that the death of 39 people is what really matters when talking about Heysel. No one deserves to lose their life watching a game of football.

However, what really sticks in the throat with the shite fans is the way they have tried to absolve themselves of any of the blame what-so-ever for that night and erased it from their history. I have many an arguement with them when they say it was "west Ham fans" or "the National Front"

They obsess about "we won it 5 times" when they should still be hanging their heads in shame for what happened that night. They don't deserve the opportunity to have ever been allowed to compete in Europe again and they should have been given a life time ban and not merely a year more than other English clubs. People talk about it being the straw that broke the camel's back with English clubs, yet 2 weeks earlier in Rotterdam we wona European trophy in a game which was watched without riot and incident.

That is what makes me sick about the shitty, badge wearing, scarf waving, false and sanctimonious "famous Kop"
Ian Kearney
31   Posted 17/02/2011 at 20:04:09

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Mike, you forgot Jimmy Case!
Michael Kenrick
32   Posted 17/02/2011 at 20:46:27

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What Chris Leyland said, times 1,000%
Stephen Lewis
33   Posted 17/02/2011 at 20:45:10

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Fair play to Dalglish. I think he has gone out of his way to rebuild some bridges between the two clubs.

It's a big step forward for someone associated with the RS to even acknowledge Heysel's big impact on Everton.

However, I still can't forgive the cunt that goal at Chelsea that robbed us of the Championship in 1985-86!
Ian McDowell
34   Posted 17/02/2011 at 21:48:39

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To be fair it shows Dalglish?s class compared to that horrible twat Benitez.
Declan Brown
35   Posted 17/02/2011 at 21:48:17

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Chris Leyland ? I doff my cap to you. Brilliantly put.
Mick Gallagher
36   Posted 17/02/2011 at 21:52:02

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FSW or Kenny Dogleash they don't compare, just wish the bastard never scored at Chelsea... I can still picture his fucking face after scoring.
Gavin Ramejkis
37   Posted 17/02/2011 at 21:54:22

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Dennis you can't remove politics from the decision as it was politically driven at the time.

Chris Leyland, very well put.
Danny Broderick
38   Posted 17/02/2011 at 22:24:06

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Gareth (13)

Couldn't agree more. When the ban was announced, it was a level playing field for all English clubs. We were all banned, and we were in the best position to deal with it as Champions. The fact we have dwindled ever since is down to Everton FC, no-one else. We won the league in 87, was that down to Heysel as well? We didn't buy good enough players and have been mis-managed financially ever since. That is the truth. Apology my arse...
Dennis Stevens
39   Posted 17/02/2011 at 22:22:17

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Gavin, I'm not removing politics from the decision, acknowledging a political element in the decision is quite different to having a tirade based upon one's personal political views. Obviously politics played a part, hence the ban not applying to the England team ? 'cos England never have a hooligan problem!?!? However, Mike's quite right to remind us of the real victims of the incident.

Everton certainly lost out, but we are where we are, primarily due to how the club has been run at Board level ? & I don't just mean the current incumbents, despite their many failings.
Charles King
40   Posted 17/02/2011 at 22:52:31

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Danny @ 37

Well said.
John Nelson
41   Posted 17/02/2011 at 22:59:35

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I wasn't born until '86 so can't comment on how Heysel affected me... But I certainly know enough that, if it weren't for the ban, I'd have grown up following a VERY different Everton team...
Danny Broderick
42   Posted 17/02/2011 at 23:15:13

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John (40),

How do you know you'd have grown up following a very different team? We'd have still had to replace the 85 team. Who's to say we'd have done it any better if we'd been in Europe?
Tony Wilson
43   Posted 18/02/2011 at 00:21:19

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How does the song go again?

Oh yeah..."We don't care what the Red Side (also known as "Shite") say, What the heck (also known as "fuck") do we care..."
Andrew Cunningham
44   Posted 18/02/2011 at 00:28:23

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To rub salt into football wounds, when the ban was lifted, they were in Europe and not us.
Roberto Birquet
45   Posted 18/02/2011 at 01:17:54

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I welcome his comments. And it is about fuckin time one of them said it, even if not an actual apology. It has soured relations for a long time. My brother is a red and he is a typical bitter(yawn)-baiter. Not the slightest sentiment of apology.

I reminisce how Americans would say they knew where they were when they heard Kennedy had been shot... I remember where I was when Uefa decided to bar European Cup favourites Everton from the European Cup and the Super Cup against Juve.

I was 15. And had finally seen an Everton team that was better than Liverpool, and being compared to Barca and Juve at the the time, and to the Liverpool of the 70s.

We were robbed of our time in the sun, and perhaps becoming a global brand. We've every right to be bitter, and it's about time some contrition was shown from the other side. It's extremely overdue.

And yes, more serious grievances were present in Italy. Football was wounded, but Everton unfairly so.
Roberto Birquet
46   Posted 18/02/2011 at 01:27:12

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Thatcher was also the greatest thing that ever happened to the UK working classes having overseen the largest transfer of wealth to us ever in the form of council house sales and privatisation shares. She was a true Blue of the highest order.
I won't beat about the bush.
Fuck off!

Thatcher built not one of those council houses, and since they were sold off (actually bloody given away), today the working classes have no council house and no affordable homes to buy.

Oh, and real wages are lower, and but for five or ten years we've had mass unemployment since she became PM.

You talk outa your arse, lad.
Martin Mason
47   Posted 18/02/2011 at 02:42:22

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I respect Dalglish for what is effectively an apology and an olive branch.

You guys really need to learn your history. Thatcher rescued the UK from Labour induced IMF rescued disaster and she never destroyed any industry. All she did was stopped the taxpayer subsidising it and the inefficient mess collapsed all by itself. Pit closures had already started and were at a higher rate under the disaster of the previous Labour government.

Maggie, Maggie, Maggie. A true Blue British hero, champion of the working classes and the greatest peace time politician we have ever seen.
Chris Leyland
48   Posted 18/02/2011 at 09:24:48

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Martin is your middle name "free'?

You need to learn the facts mate.

Unemployment over 3million
Whole communitues trapped in a cycle of joblessness
Record numbers of house repossessions
Sky high interest rates
Negative equity
Selling us shares in utility companies we already owned
Having a war to regain popularity and win an election
Killing community and society by creating a culture of selfishness and greed.

Oh and the poll tax, quite possibly the most unfair.and regressive tax ever.

And she knew fuck all about football too and wanted to introduce a membership card scheme like they had at Luton.

So stop with 'greatest peacetime politician' shite as she was a horrible, horrible woman who would be right at home on the Kop.
Nick Entwistle
49   Posted 18/02/2011 at 10:22:16

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Just to add more random annoyance to all things Liverpool, if you go on the BBC football page it says 'Liverpool ease to draw'! Who the fuck eases to a draw? Was that the game plan? To play turgid uninspired football against a team who hadn't played for three months (honestly, the commentary team couldn't talk about anything else last night)? Too many reds in BBC Sport.
Roberto Birquet
50   Posted 18/02/2011 at 11:47:30

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Too many reds in BBC sport.
It seems to me the Beeb is a cabal of Kopites and Spurs fans.
Martin, I need to learn my history? Here goes:

The IMF money in 1976 was never used, and was paid back after one year (the Fact of IMF loan just as big a fault of Heath's 1970-74 government as Wilson's).

The postwar consensus stopped working, and then... The most famous billboard ad in political history was one that helped Thatcher get elected: "Labour isn't working", with a picture of a dole queue: it was 1979.

Thatcher then had 11 years in power in which unemployment tripled and stayed massively above that FOR THE WHOLE OF HER TIME IN OFFICE.

The legacy of Thatcher is: deregulation, privatisation, greed and a new class ? the underclass. That has produced the largest financial breakdown since just after the First World War. It matters little who was in power at the time in the UK. It was international and based on Thatcherism.

Greed is our new god, and failing bankers get away with grand theft because of the Thatcherite philosophy governing Britain for 30 years.

The 70s showed excessive power in the unions. But her war on them has led to falling real wages for 30 years. Lack of income has been the reason (apart from greed) for record levels of personal debt.

You see, companies want to pay staff as little as possible, but need people to still buy their stuff. A conundrum Thatcher solved: destroy the unions and enter the credit card, and deregulated finance.

We are still living with the consequences, whether mass unemployment or enforced debt. (To any one unaware; govt debt in the UK is approx 59-60% of GDP ? Less than in Italy, France, Germany and especially Japan. But personal debt is a whopper. It is over 100% of GDP.

Yup personal debt is bigger than the economy. All thanks to falling wages, and lack of affordable housing following from the double whammy: no social housing left, and deregulated finance creating electronic money that did not really exist to push up asset prices (especially housing). Debt, debt, debt or homelessness.

I know my history.

Roberto Birquet
51   Posted 18/02/2011 at 12:09:05

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Missed a bit iin my rage....
The most famous billboard ad in political history was one that helped Thatcher get elected: "Labour isn't working", with a picture of a dole queue: it was 1979. (ADD here: unemployment was 1.2 million at the time...)

Thatcher then had 11 years in power in which unemployment tripled and stayed massively above that FOR THE WHOLE OF HER TIME IN OFFICE (despite changing the method of counting unemployment to make it seem lower).
Brian Denton
52   Posted 18/02/2011 at 12:10:14

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Roberto, I think Martin Mason is what would be known on Fan Boards as a 'wum'......

I think Thatcher's been the most important politician since Churchill in terms of leaving her mark on history. I personally consider it a black mark, but can't deny that she did force a sea-change in the country.

And now, they're back.... a worrying time for parents in the north.
Martin Mason
53   Posted 18/02/2011 at 12:19:06

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Guys, I know all of the leftie anti-Thatcher propaganda and I know exactly what happened to UK finances and employment over the time that she was in power. It also had to be looked at in terms of what was happening in Europe and the rest of the world at the time as we transitioned from a protected state with taxpayer funded non-jobs in nationalised industries to globalism.

She was a person of the time, exactly what was needed and the only problem was that she didn't go far enough with her reforms. She shouldn't have stopped at Union baron power but carried on through the police, parliament and the judiciary.

As well as being a lifelong Evertonian I'm a Blue politically and have no regrets over that. Only conservatism can give true caring socialism.

Come on you Blues, Everton on Saturday and the conservatives next election with a big majority and a new leader. :-)

John Nelson
54   Posted 18/02/2011 at 12:29:03

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Danny (41) ? ifs, buts and maybes, I know... but if we were allowed to compete in the 85-86 European Cup, as repeated so so many times, we would have been one of the favourties to win it. How we would have fared in the competition then would have been beneficial, as it would have kept the core of the team together and would have attracted more high quality players.

True to form with "ifs, buts and maybes", we could have then not won the league in 87, but I firmly believe it would have kept us at the higher echelons of European football ? thus when Sky came along, we would have been right up there with the likes of Man Utd.

It may seem like I am blabbering on but that's my opinion. However, facts are facts and there is no doubt we were unfairly punished for what happened at Heysel. And, regardless of whether the RS caused it, the ground was a show etc etc... you cannot escape the fact that them twats had a part to play in us missing out properly in the big time.

I lie in hope we get our time again and them fuckers get their come-uppance.
Gavin Ramejkis
55   Posted 18/02/2011 at 13:32:55

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Martin, conservatism is the direct opposite of socialism and you only have to name me or anyone else on here a single elected Tory politician from the social classes... you can't. Fair play to you having your own political views which you are entitled to, but don't talk shite claiming Thatcher did anything but butter up and create uber wealth for those already in power and wealth and destroyed industry and removed the ability of the working classes to have a fair say in politics.

The current PM is only there by default having cosied up to another party who couldn't win power but are sycophantic and naive enough to believe they have a say in how the country will be run hence the current vote on how votes are to be counted.

Your party of choice is currently enforcing changes to Local Councils to drop Lollipop men and women who cost approximately £3000 per year yet the same councils refuse point blank to consider their leaders on over £200k a year taking a small drop in salary which would pay for several of these staff. Your "fuck you" society instantly creating a question, is the head of a council worth more than the life of a child? One answer they have suggested is that parents and local companies fund them... erm, how about"Yes, ok, but drop our increasing taxes then, as that's what they are supposed to pay for".

Thatcherism has created a global environment of shafting everyone for the sake of personal gain, Cameron's laughable Big Society a clear and present lets get you to do the work you pay for through taxes for nothing... ker-ching! ? yet not one single reform of any significance in the banking arena.

Tony Waring
56   Posted 18/02/2011 at 16:56:59

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Well I thought TW was all about footy but since plenty of others are shouting about Maggie, premit me to say a few words.

The poll tax was or should have been one of the fairest taxes ever. If you are working, why shouldn't you contribute to the public purse; you enjoy council services, why shouldn't you pay for them?

As for council chiefs taking a pay cut, I'm right with you there, Gavin and remember ? many of them are Labour!

I hate bankers bonuses as much as the next man but console myself with the thought that the recipients pay most of it back in super tax ? that's fair surely?

Back to footy. We were robbed in 1975 and at long last Dalglish has admitted as much. We can't alter things. Why can't we let it rest at that and grow up?

Tony Waring
57   Posted 18/02/2011 at 17:03:48

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Sorry, that should have read 1985. I well remember Rotterdam (I was there) and the euphoria that followed, all to be dismally snuffed out by you know who... We have never recovered.
John Gee
58   Posted 18/02/2011 at 19:22:11

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Sorry Tony Waring, no.55,
Bankers don't pay that tax at all. From this point on, listen to the wording used every time that arguement is trotted out to justify the bonuses. They say things like... 'the bankers are liable' or 'their taxable income is'. The people who receive these massive bonuses are experts in finance and would be derided by everyone around them and dropped by their companies if they didn't know ways out of paying this imaginary tax.

But don't believe me, read CITYBOY, it was written by a former financial expert. It blows the whistle on this myth. What surprises me is that people believe this myth, do you really think that these people, collectively, would give up the one thing they value the most?

Martin, are you out of your fucking tree? I'll tell you a little thing about that mad bitch... while the world was rejoicing over the fall of the Berlin wall and the reunification of Germany, her and Mitterand were working on Gorby to keep Germany split. Ask yourself this question, How do you think the Russians would have done that? That's right, they would have sent in the tanks to the cold-war tinderbox. Thankfully Gorby ignored her and, I'd like to think, saw her for what she is... Britian's Stalin.

Tony Stanley
59   Posted 19/02/2011 at 23:32:01

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For fuck's sake, you can't seriously blame Heysel for the position we are in at the present time.

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