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Walter and David

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What have Walter Smith and David Moyes got in common? Both appear to be dour humourless Scotsmen (this is utterly untrue). Both of them appear to have a safety-first mentality (true, in my view). Here's the biggest thing, though. Both have been let down by their chairman.

Walter Smith was brought to Everton with false promises of money to spend. Frankly, I don't know what promises were made to David Moyes. I would like to think that he signed his lucrative contract with more than financial gain on his mind. It seems to me that what we have now at Everton is a return to the dying days of Walter Smith. I believe that David Moyes will be at Celtic by August and I believe he will have success there.

Things have gone full circle. We need a change and we need to take a chance. David Moyes was a dynamic young manager. I admired and supported him fully for some time but he has fallen short.

For all those who say "be careful what you wish for", I would say that I wish for another apparently dour Scot, this time one with an attacking mentality. Bring Paul Lambert to Everton. Take another chance. How much worse can he do?


Andy Crooks, Belfast     Posted 17/03/2011 at 19:27:35

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Andy Callan
1   Posted 18/03/2011 at 07:13:44

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I've said this before and I'll say it again; who will do as well with no cash at all?

I agree with everyone when they say that Moyes's tactics are boring and that he looks like he's lost interest, but he's consistently kept us in the top league now for years.

Unless someone comes in with a bucket full of cash, we'll never win anything, so it doesn't fucking matter who's in charge, does it...?!

We're a selling club who's success is determined by how far up the league they finish without actually challenging to win it. The sooner people come to terms with that, the better in my opinion.

Anyway, we need to beat this shower of twats tomorrow, never mind getting shut of the Manager.....
Adam Fenlon
2   Posted 18/03/2011 at 07:32:52

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Utterly untrue? Surely they're Scotsmen at the very least?
John Barnes
3   Posted 18/03/2011 at 07:51:04

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Andy, you could say would anyone do any worse? Would a new manager make them at least better to watch? Send them to try to win games as his first intent? Try different subs? Young players? Not have favourites? Or in other words not go against the majority of opinion because it worked once before in 2004-05?

You' re probably right that, to get in amongst the big prizes, we need a new owner with major dosh but, till that happens, someone else at the helm might be able to do a Pompey or B'ham or get to 5th or even 4th regularly to ensure European football. Really, we all know we ain't going any further with Moyes, are we? Even with serious money.

Richard Dodd
4   Posted 18/03/2011 at 09:03:45

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Having done Kenwright to death over the past 10 days,I guess an assault on David Moyes could well be expected ? just for a change. Toffeeeweb seems to attract the most negative of Everton supporters ? I sometimes feel a lone figure in enjoying my support of such a great club!
Gavin Ramejkis
5   Posted 18/03/2011 at 09:12:58

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Doddy, why not post what's positive at the moment and give us a precis of the benefits of BK's 11 years as Chairman. Your article would be posted and responded to but you need to give more to your responses than "just another BK or DM attack".
Declan O'Shaughnessy
6   Posted 18/03/2011 at 09:11:07

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Andy, you ask "How much worse could he [Paul Lambert] do?" Well, in all seriousness, he could get Everton relegated. I'm not saying he would, and I'm not having a pop at Paul Lambert (whom I like tremendously as a manager), I'm just pointing out a possibility.

Let's not get carried away with ourselves and decry David Moyes as some kind of managerial incompetent or the worst manager on the face of the planet.

As others have said, if Everton don't get funds from anywhere, then we might be as well off with Moyes as with anyone else. At least he knows what he has to work with. A young manager coming in who doesn't know the league or the players may not be the best idea for Everton right now.

Although, in fairness, it's unlikely that Lambert would prove to be another Mike Walker! Personally, I would like Moyes to resign in the summer and for someone like Lambert or Coyle to take over (though I'd much rather a foreign manager to come in like Ramos, Pellegrini, Laudraup, Spalletti etc.). But I'd also like them to be given money to spend, and the ability to retain whatever players they like from the current rabble.
Tony Waring
7   Posted 18/03/2011 at 09:14:44

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Everyone would like to see more attacking football but the Premier League ain't like that. Tony Mowbray tried it with the Baggies and see what happened. The only teams likely to have success with this approach are the clubs who spend big time on strikers.... not forgetting of course plenty of midfielders and a tank trap of defenders.

Oh I forgot all that lot costs squillions which we do not have. We'll have to lump it I'm afraid and revel in the occasional repeat of the Blackpool game because there's no way it's going to be a regular occurrence.

Mark Murphy
8   Posted 18/03/2011 at 09:17:53

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Richard, that's because we are not happy!

We came into this season full of optimism yet find ourselves struggling to keep up with the worst Liverpool team I have seen in my 40 years as a blue.

It's not good enough and I, for one, am not ready to accept mediocrity.
Duncan McDine
9   Posted 18/03/2011 at 09:40:41

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I admire your faithful support, Richard, but I just don't understand how you can be happy with the goings on at Everton. I used to stick up for Blue Bill, and even believed what came out of his cake hole... but it is clear to everyone that he isn't doing his job. He's failed in almost every way possible, and he has to sell the club.

Regarding David Moyes though, I would like to see him stay ? it is much more likely that we'd get relegated under anyone else. I can't see him staying though... unless the club is sold in the next few months.
Dave Wilson
10   Posted 18/03/2011 at 09:41:14

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Oh Goody, somebody else a strung a few wins together, so we have a new flavour of the month.

Andy; I thought you wanted Glen Hoddle? Or was it Slaven Bilic?....

No, I tell a lie, it was... err... I dont know, you seem to change your mind every week.
Nick Entwistle
11   Posted 18/03/2011 at 09:55:19

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You blame the chairman then want Moyes to leave.
Trevor Lynes
12   Posted 18/03/2011 at 10:12:43

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If DM does go to Celtic, of course he will have success!! Everyone who manages Rangers or Celtic win something every season and they have the easiest passage into Europe than any English club manager...

There is very little competition in Scottish football... Dave Weir can play until he falls off his perch and so can so many ex-Premier League players who are past it!! There is not much merit in winning honours at either of the Glasgow clubs in home competition.

Eric Myles
13   Posted 18/03/2011 at 10:18:11

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John Barnes (#3) ? you shot yourself in the foot with the argument "someone else at the helm might be able to do a Pompey or B'ham".

Portsmouth got relegated and went bust last season and Birmingham are just about to do the same this season.
Shaun Brennan
14   Posted 18/03/2011 at 12:35:14

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Fucking hell, Doddy, you actually enjoy supporting Everton!!
Franny Porter
15   Posted 18/03/2011 at 12:46:49

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I agree with Andy to a degree. I don't know enough about Paul Lambert to want him as a manager, but I am fucking bored of Moyes. We are just such a boring team to watch, why should we settle for watching this shit just because Moyes (probably) won't get us relegated, is that what we are now?

I would like to take a chance on someone else, with fresh new ideas. Everyone can see how stale we have gone.
Mike Allison
16   Posted 18/03/2011 at 13:14:27

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"How much worse can he do?"

Coffee/keyboard moment there. That has to be the worst use of a rhetorical question I've seen in my entire life. How much worse could he do? The answer is a lot. He could get us relegated, he could consistently finish in the bottom half of the table, he could consistently fail to qualify for Europe. He could fail to create excellent performances where we dominate and outplay teams with almost infinitely more resources than us. He could fail to integrate good young players into the side. He could fail to find an effective way of getting results on limited resources.

If we got a new manager, we could hardly hope that they'd do anywhere near as well as Moyes. The real question is, how could he possibly do any better? He'd have to win a trophy or qualify for the Champions League to do better, something that with our finances and apparent state of the club in general, is far, far less likely at the moment than getting relegated.

Also, plenty of apparently decent Premier League teams have gone down thinking they'll come back up and failed, or even gone down again. This seems to be something you think is impossible, it isn't. It could be a very real possibility within the next ten years, when we'll all look back at the 'glory' days of David Moyes and regular European qualification.

How much worse could he do? A lot.

Chris Bannantyne
17   Posted 18/03/2011 at 13:16:00

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Yeah yeah, Moyes out, because word on the street is that both Jose Mourinho and Pep Guardiola want the job... Oh wait, no they don't. Better keep Moyes then.
Larry Boner
18   Posted 18/03/2011 at 14:30:01

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Actually, Mourinho was quoted as saying, "I would manage Man Utd, Arsenal, even Spurs or Everton, but never Liverpool."
Mark Stone
19   Posted 18/03/2011 at 14:42:37

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Fuck me, John Barnes, you want someone in to do a Pompey or a Birmingham! What high fucking aspirations you have ? relegation. Yippee.
Ian Kearney
20   Posted 18/03/2011 at 15:03:03

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Paul Lambert is the most talented up-and-coming manager in the country IMO, he may reverse things in the short term, but in the long term he will hit the same wall David Moyes has unless the bigger problem is removed.
Sam Hoare
21   Posted 18/03/2011 at 15:01:32

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How much worse could he do??!!

Jesus, I am not saying that Moyes is perfect but surely you can see that over the years he's done a pretty good job of stabilising and improving us. Maybe he's reached his own particular season but someone else could do a lot worse and would struggle to do better.

We could get relegated for example as John Barnes seems to want.
Terence Leong
22   Posted 18/03/2011 at 15:38:59

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Paul Lambert can do a lot better, or a lot worse. The question is whether we are prepared for that.

I'm not being a Moyes apologist here. I think even the most sympathetic of us recognize that Moyes essentially have a play it safe mentality, and his substitutions often show that he is unable to change the game around.

For all the exciting football that Holloway and Di Matteo are hailed for, looks where it's gotten the two clubs.

The buck ultimately stops with Kenwright and the CEO.

There is a lack of proper directions at the top, and the manager cannot always be expected to pull rabbits out the hat. The more he does that just masks the rot that is already in place.

I'm just amazed at the missed opportunities that Everton has in tapping the Asian market, not just because I am Asian. Rather, the two biggest fan base and market in China and India are so huge and we are missing it. It's not too late, but it's amazing how we are not tapping into them.

I believe that with a change of ownership, we might still be able to see a better Moyes and a better team.

John Barnes
23   Posted 18/03/2011 at 15:43:09

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You know fella's, I'm not anti-Moyes. He has done a great job and we should all be grateful. I am. I've been watching Everton since the fifties and if you think I want to see us relegated then maybe you should read into things a bit more. I was just speculating.

Birmingham and Portsmouth have won cups, which was the obvious reference I was making. Well, I thought it was obvious. We haven't, and again I ask: Do you see us winning at least a minor competition or getting amongst the big boys? Because I honestly don't.

Maybe that is all to do with cash. There's always a gamble in changing managers and I understand why so many want see if Moyes could just be the one to deliver glory if he had the right set-up. Others, less ambitious, are happy that he can keep the club ticking along at a respectable level on twopence.

I admire Moyes for asking the awkward questions at last, and I love him for being a big Evertonian for the last nine years. And I'd be delighted if we did become big again under him. I just don't think it will happen, and I don't offer any alternative. As I said, I am speculating.

David Holroyd
24   Posted 18/03/2011 at 15:40:54

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David Moyes has done a lot for Everton, constantly keeping us in and around the top 6 or 7 but look at the table we have won 8 yes 8 games. He has always managed Everton with one hand dehind his back, now it seems both hands are there. He must be totaly fed up, some of his answers on Everton TV suggest that. A change of manager might work but he also will be fighting a loosing batle with little or no money.
Mike Allison
25   Posted 18/03/2011 at 17:51:13

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John, Portsmouth won the cup by signing loads of players on wages they couldn't afford and dodging tax in outrageous and apparently 'semi'-legal ways. They nearly went bust because of this and, if the law had been fully enforced on the strictest interpretation, they would have done.

We basically did the same as Portsmouth without doing this except we found Chelsea in the final with us and they found Cardiff. If we'd been lucky enough to have played Cardiff in the final, and they'd played Chelsea, I'm pretty sure we'd have won and they wouldn't. They certainly didn't do anything better than us, they just got lucky, having been extremely reckless, and are now in big trouble because of it.

Andy Crooks
26   Posted 18/03/2011 at 17:45:55

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What is your criteria of a brilliant manager? No trophies, hoofball, an under performing squad. Negative tactics, loyalty to an inadequate chairman? Accepting a huge salary for winning nothing? David Moyes is not a brilliant manager.

Mike Alliison, are you happy with what our coach has achieved this season with a squad he was happy with?

Dave Wilson, Lambert is not flavour of the week. Any critic of Moyes is constantly asked on this site to provide an alternative and I have tried to do that. Too many Evertonians, including you, Dave, are frightened of a future without him. Can you not see that we need something new? Can you not see that, after nine years, things might need to be refreshed? This season has been the most disappointing I can ever remember... What is wrong with suggesting that things could be different?

Chris Barr
27   Posted 18/03/2011 at 17:54:34

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To be fair to Moyes, when you look at what money he has had at his disposal, he has taken us from the brink of relegation and qualifying for Europe.

This season has not gone to plan; however, not many teams have had a great season either. The league is so tight and I cannot remember the big four losing so many games, even if Chelsea win every game remaining this season, they will not get near last year's total.

The club desperately needs investment and I think, if we continue the way we are, Moyes will go to a club with a sound financial footing ? can you blame him after 9 years?

The big worry is that, if Harry R gets the England job after Fabio goes, then Spurs might come calling

Andy Crooks
28   Posted 18/03/2011 at 18:37:42

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Chris, if Spurs or any or any of the top six come calling for David Moyes, I will streak round Goodison Park at a derby game. Believe me, you will not want to be there.
Karl Masters
29   Posted 18/03/2011 at 18:51:37

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Andy, what about Steve Coppell?
Ryan Holroyd
30   Posted 18/03/2011 at 18:47:55

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Andy

I have critical of Moyes, but he's had no money for nearly two seasons whilst everyone else is spending money like the world is about to end.

The simple fact is your wage structure is nearly the same as where you finish in the league. Ours is about the 9th highest in the Premier League. Go figure.

We're in a new period in England. The more money you have the more successful you will be. And we have FUCK ALL. No money spent (apart from player sales) in gods knows how long. Since we bought Yak I'd imagine.

What makes anyone so sure a new manager would make a blind bit of difference?

If someone could convince me, then I'd be more vigorous in my 'Moyes Out' chants.
Neil Humphreys
31   Posted 18/03/2011 at 17:37:27

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I like Moyes, for all his supposed tactical misgivings a really defensive manager would have us playing like Birmingham (who for the record are utter shit). I think Moyes has evolved, we have seen him come through the early drama of taking on the Big Yid, the yo-yo seasons and then building the basis of a top 4 side.

Let's not get carried away with the anti-Moyes shit. There are two groups to shoulder the blame. Firstly the Chairman and his associate crowd of non-investing, non-contributory ner-do-goods. And ourselves ? yep the fans. First of all, we don't pay enough through the turnstiles or in the stores etc to allow the team to compete in this ridiculous league; and secondly, we are a bunch of inept whingers (myself very much included) for continuing to put up with this shit when we know full well Bill K is taking the piss.

I was thinking on this last night, how would you react if the club pinned transfer budget to season ticket sales? If they said with 25,000 paying up front we would ringfence £x to the transfer kitty. At least then you could tie your individual contribution to an outcome?

Neil Humphreys
32   Posted 18/03/2011 at 18:58:06

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Oh and BTW ? if Doddy isnt Bill Kenwright in disguise then I'm a panto dame!
Ryan Holroyd
33   Posted 18/03/2011 at 18:56:49

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Andy

You also say an under performing squad.

Where is the evidence in this? We've got players in this squad who people on this website slate as been SHITE and yet you're saying we have an under perorming squad.

In our squad we have;

Hibbert ? Cost nothing.
Coleman ? Cost 60k
Saha ? Cost nothing
Osman ? Cost nothing
Beckford ? Cost nothing
Rodwell ? Cost nothing
Arteta ? £2.5M
Heitinga £5M
Bily £9M
Howard ? £3M
Neville ? £3M
Jags ? £4.5M
Distain ? £6M

In comparative terms to the other clubs that is nothing.

I mean, god, Man City spent £200M on their squad and they may not even make the top 4. That's how hard it is to compete in this league.
Dave Wilson
34   Posted 18/03/2011 at 18:53:54

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Andy

Although I`m always interested to hear people's opinion as to who may make a good manager, I`ll never demand an alternative when somebody calls for Moyes to go.

It's not your job to name the new manager, it's Kenwright's... Actually, if it was your job, I`d be more inclined to let Moyes go, but it isn't and I think we`ve already established that Kenwright can't be trusted.

I may be wrong here but I believe only Wenger and SAF have finished top six more than Moyesie, so, out of interest, what for you constitutes a top six manager? Somebody who has done it, or somebody who you think may do it?
Andy Crooks
35   Posted 18/03/2011 at 19:06:54

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Ryan, a new manager would make a difference. What more can David Moyes do? For the players it must just be the same old thing. New man, new ideas, different tactics, maybe another chance for some payers who don't get on with DM. In the absence of a regime change we need something new from the team.

My post was sparked by a chat with an Irish Celtic season ticket holder who actually knows Neil Lennon. I believe that David Moyes going in the summer to Celtic would be best for him and would spark life back into Everton. Kenwright is going nowhwere and what I am trying to do is see a way forward with him still here. Sadly this is where we are.

Jay Harris
36   Posted 18/03/2011 at 18:14:38

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I have supported the Blues since 1959 and seen some great times and some very desperate times.

Accordingly I have seen good managers and bad managers and I have to say for the majority of his reign Moyesy has been uo there with the best of them.

Am I happy..... Hell No!! but let's put a bit of perspective on it.

At the onset of the Premier League (and we were one of the main instigators) there wasnt so much cash floating around and things were a little more sensible but in the last 20 years the amount of cash that's passed through various Chief Executive's hands has been beyond belief.

Who could ever have imagined 20 years ago that a snotty nosed kid like Rooney could get £240,000 a year let alone a week!!

Moyes came along at a dire time for us when we were nearly relegated for the first time in my lifetime and were assured it would "never happen again".

Moyes took us to heights "Where we punched above our weight" for some time and brought dignity and honesty to our club which I for one will never forget.

Moyes hasnt lost this ability but he has had his enthusiasm knocked out of him IMO.

I honestly believe he will walk at the end of the season and I will welcome it while appreciating what he has done.

I honestly hope that is the catalyst for change at boardroom level where the degree of dignity and honesty Moyes brought has not been mirrored. Instead we have a cloud of secrecy,arrogance and incompetence accompanied by a culture of blatant deceipt.

If there is a cancer at our club it is Kenwright not Moyes and I believe Davy boy should go with his held held high.

That does present worries and challenges for the future and may even mean relegation but the show will go on and we shall all (or most anyway) go on supporting the Blues through thick and thin until our cycle turns and we become greater than the RS once more and Kenwright and Moyes will be distant memories and we will have nothing to moan about (??).

KENWRIGHT OUT!!!!!
Dave Wilson
37   Posted 18/03/2011 at 19:15:49

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Are you free to do Skeggy next chrimbo, Mr Humphreys?
Andy Crooks
38   Posted 18/03/2011 at 19:16:09

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Dave, somebody who has done it will never come to us. We have to go with somebody who might do it. In other words, we have to take a chance.
Dave Wilson
39   Posted 18/03/2011 at 19:17:39

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Andy there's more chance of Moyes asking Michael Kenrick and your good self around for Sunday lunch than him Joining Sellic.
Andy Crooks
40   Posted 18/03/2011 at 19:19:09

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Ryan, we have a squad that David Moyes was happy with at the start of the season. We have a squad that many Evertonians predicted would qualify for the Champions League. If they are not under performing then David Moyes got it badly wrong.
Ryan Holroyd
41   Posted 18/03/2011 at 19:29:15

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Maybe Andy we're not as good as we all thought.

Plus not having a quality forward has cost us. That I do blame Moyes for.
Ryan Holroyd
42   Posted 18/03/2011 at 19:32:00

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Andy, I am not having go btw. Your opinion is as good as mine. I think without money is it very hard to compete and I wonder where we would be without some of the bargains Moyes has got over the years.

Jeff Armstrong
43   Posted 18/03/2011 at 19:20:49

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Jay, "we were nearly relegated for the first time in my lifetime" did you miss 1994?

Smith joined in 1997 after another skirmish with the 2nd tier, that's where the "never again" quote came from, 4 years before Moyes!!

Anyway, Moyes has become "premiershipped" where by, the be-all, and end-all, is to stay in the league, doesn't matter about dour football, entertainment... forget it.

And cups?.......... are you serious! That cup final was an embarrassment, we could have finished 2 places higher but for that!! At the end of his carreer he will look back and think he did a decent job, we will think of him as another Gordon Lee.

Andrew James
44   Posted 18/03/2011 at 20:19:06

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#27

Very, very good point! It always seems when we get going in the FA Cup, we have to beat the very best to get to the Final. I am referring to '95 when we had to beat 3 teams above us in the league including 2 title contenders and again in '09 which was a ridiculous. We finished 5th but played 4 out of the top 6!

I suppose when you get to a final that way, you can feel like you've beaten the best!
Jay Harris
45   Posted 18/03/2011 at 20:09:04

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Jeff,
I was not suggesting we just missed it when Moyes came.

Maybe that was bad grammar on my part.

I was just trying to make the point we were a cast asunder shipwreck when Moyes came and that the game is very different now.

I think he is significantly better than Gordon Lee who was outrageously dire.
Andrew James
46   Posted 18/03/2011 at 20:36:17

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Jeff ? the comparison to Gordon Lee is a bit harsh. I am too young to know what his team was like although the stats show he did a half-decent job across the cups and the league without any silverware.

But I would be surprised if Everton fans looked back on Davey in a similar fashion. Lee is unfortunate to be the man at the helm prior to the most successful period in the club's history. Davey joined the club when it was on it's knees and changed our fortunes.

As a 32-year-old, Moyes and Kendall are the best managers we've had in my lifetime.
Andrew James
47   Posted 18/03/2011 at 21:03:23

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Jay

I need history lessons here because I was lucky to be born in 1978 hence the first team I knew were awesome. Stylistically, what were Lee's team like?

My impression has always been that the 1970's were poor for us but the more I learn we were in touching distance of the title a few times and had some good cup runs? Perhaps the overbearing success of some ugly reds has made me write that decade off!
Andy Crooks
48   Posted 18/03/2011 at 22:22:03

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Andrew, one of my greatest memories, maybe the greatest, as an Evertonian is of Gordon Lee, perhaps the most uncool man who ever drew breath, racing onto the pitch to congratulate Bob Latchford on scoring his 30th goal of the season. The Daily Express paid a huge, then, bonus for him doing it.

We thumped Chelsea that day and I was there (it makes me feel old to think about it). The Daily Express printed a montage of every goal and it is in my drawer of all things Everton. Actually, I've had a few beers and I think I will go and open the drawer once more...

Tom Bowers
49   Posted 18/03/2011 at 22:31:48

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We have had our share of ''Messiahs'' over the years and Moyes has done better than most with the limited resources. However, his tenure has run it's course and we need a new man with new ideas. I believe 9 years is ample time to produce the goods on the field. He is responsible for every player brought in, every team selection and every plan for each game.

Yes, a new manager may not immediately change Everton's fortunes but surely we have to make change as more of the same is not acceptable. I applaud Moyes for what he has done but we need something better and I think he has run out of ideas.

Andrew James
50   Posted 18/03/2011 at 22:46:54

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Andy - you open that drawer mate!

I read about that incentive thing where nobody had scored 30 for years and the media focused on it. To be honest, all I know of 70s footie for Everton is based on ITV repeats of classic games I saw in the 90s! The Latch, McKenzie and Thomas always stick in my memory. But I believe they were under Bingham's management.
Andrew James
51   Posted 18/03/2011 at 22:52:28

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Getting back to the post, Smith and Moyes are hugely different.

In 4 seasons, Smith got us to 3 FA Cup quarter finals. In 9 Moyes has got us to an FA Cup Final and a League Cup Semi but tends to go out of cups very early.

Smith's teams were expansive with plenty of expressive players on show. Moyes is about the team and he doesn't do passengers.

Smith's teams were unfit and older thus running out of energy and likely to draw or lose games to last minute goals or flagging after the 70 minute mark. Moyes has one of the fittest sides around. They are prone to scoring last minute winners or equalisers when needed and can go toe to toe through extra time.

Smith's team had a soft underbelly and conceded goals easily. Moyes has enough edgy 1-0's to show his discipline has racked up more points.

Smith was flexible which can often be good. Yet that meant he changed the system to face the opposition so that the players would get confused hence why we finished outside the top half regularly. Moyes sets his system out so everyone knows what they're doing. It forces the opposition to accommodate us as opposed to vice versa more often than not.
Trevor Mackie
52   Posted 18/03/2011 at 22:52:13

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Re Gordon Lee, compared to present, his side challenged for the title and were unlucky to lose a League Cup Final against Villa, but it was in the same decade that we'd won the league with Ball, Kendall and Harvey.

To Evertonians of that era, "nil satis" actually meant something so when he let Duncan Mackenzie go (footballing genius btw) he joined the growing ranks of "work before skill" managers that evolved into Allardyce, Bruce, Moyes et al and (bar Kendall Mk 1) we've never really recovered.

Andy Crooks
53   Posted 18/03/2011 at 23:13:52

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Andrew, I have opened the drawer and right now I am looking at a pennant (does such a thing exist now) of the late sixties Championship winning team. There are drawings of all the players and the boss.

Roger Kenyon? What ever became of him? John Hurst, likewise. Jimmy Husband... You know what is amazing about it? They all look like my dad. Harry Catterick is there too and he looks absolutely terrifying. Sorry. I'm going to get maudlin, better go.

Trevor Mackie
54   Posted 18/03/2011 at 23:18:09

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I forgot to add Moyes must go prior to any potential investor comes in because I wouldn't trust him with 5 bob if it's anything but a centre half he's after. Apart from the usual dullards, he's been found out.
Gavin Ramejkis
55   Posted 18/03/2011 at 23:36:46

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Gordon Lee had bloody good players including Bob Latchford, Andy King, brought in Kevin Ratcliffe and Graeme Sharp but cast Duncan McKenzie adrift which was a crime against football and I hated him for it, he frustrated the hell out of me as a manager but we were always contenders and capable of giving anyone in the league a game.

The game has moved on in many different ways but Moyes after nine years strikes me as a manager capable of no more than mid to upper table even if he did have a bundle of players at his disposal purely on his tried and trusted style of defensive football. I don't think Moyes would ever win a league, it's not in his style.
Andrew James
56   Posted 19/03/2011 at 00:10:18

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Andy / Gavin & anyone who knows their stuff.

Surely back then we were still considered one of the big four and had the money to compete? If I am right then Lee had a similar deck to the other top clubs but shuffled it wrong.

The reason why I support Moyes is that he's never had the same set of cards that most teams around him have. But his poker face is superior. Otherwise we wouldn't keep finishing in the top half.

Like to hear about Bingham as well?
Andrew James
57   Posted 19/03/2011 at 00:17:21

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@ Andy Crooks

I have a shoebox with a signed photo of Captain Ratcliffe and a team poster from 1986 which combines the squads of both Everton and the RS??? Bizarre. They are standing there with all their trophies out on the front.
Derek Thomas
58   Posted 19/03/2011 at 04:58:48

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Trevor Mackie; pretty much spot on re Lee. Then and now, different landscapes, but he was very Moyes like.

Then and now, it is relatively easy to get from 17th to 5th or 6th, with a bit of luck, just by upping the things you CAN change, attitude, application, fitness, tactics, etc etc. What you could not do then is up the skill, silk purses, sows ears.

You can't do it now, but what you can do now is get around it somewhat by throwing money at it. Most times, more money = better players.

If I remember, Lee got Newcastle up to about 6th on the discipline ticket.

Someone with more time could, if they wished, research the pre- and post-Lee Newcastle to see who he bought and sold. This may add to the debate about Moyes and change for change sake.

Bingham, he bought Duncan McKenzie, a fancy dan. What was the ' real ' story about why he was sacked? Lee didn't like fancy dans..

Moyes and Lee ? both good at knocking squads into shape and a single figure finish... any higher, forget it.
Ray Roche
59   Posted 19/03/2011 at 07:21:06

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This is the team Smith picked v Middlesborough when we were beaten 3-0 in the Cup, Smith's last game before he heard the call "Taxi for Smith".. Simonsen, Pistone, Stubbs, Weir, Unsworth, Clarke, Gascoigne, Gemmill (Blomqvist 73), Linderoth (Alexandersson 45), Radzinski, Moore (Chadwick 45).

I can't believe that anyone with an ounce of sense could compare that with our present first team and declare it a better side. Let's give Moyes his due, he has improved this club no end, and on a nett spend of less than £3m a season. OK, his substitutions are sometimes baffling, to say the least, and once Jags gets the ball we know it's going to hoofed somewhere... anywhere... but we have played some expansive, passing football but with no end product, due mainly to us not having a striker worthy of the description.

And where will Moyes get one of those from with the small change Bill gives him? His football isn't always as dour and defensive as some on here make out. Cut the guy some slack and appreciate what he HAS done for this club, instead of looking for any chance to slag him off.

James McGrady
60   Posted 19/03/2011 at 09:29:52

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Two more Scots for me, either Paul Lambert or Owen Coyle. The only two we can afford and who are actually talented.

But I fear it will be Big Sam, McClaren or some other shite Englishman.

Jimmy Sorheim
61   Posted 19/03/2011 at 12:16:57

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I think Moyes is going to quit come summer, cause the board is never gonna give him what he wants when it comes to transfer money as they probably feel he has had more then enough money when you think of it.

I think he has wasted money on average-performing high-priced players. I can cite examples like Heitinga £ 7 million, Bilyaletdinov £9.25 million, Yakubu £11.25 million and Per Krøldrup and Andy van der Meyde. Where Moyes is good is when he has to be scarce with his money, for example Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar and Coleman, so I think the strategy of not handing Moyes tens of millions of pounds is actually squeezing out every drop of his talent for eying potential.

I just have a feeling that he is never going to get us any further: no matter how many transfer millions we give him, he will always be held back by his defensive mind-style of play.

With regards to a new manager, I would appoint someone already in the club, like Alan Stubbs or Phil Neville. Personally, I think Neville would fit perfectly, as he has the winning experience we need to lift the players.

Anyway, I think we are seeing glimpses of the board losing faith in Moyes and that they will not stand in his way if another club came in for him. I think it is time for something to change, maybe just changing the assistant manager and getting a quality striker with lot of goalscoring experience.

Martin Mason
62   Posted 19/03/2011 at 13:07:47

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I think the weight of evidence is pointing to Moyes leaving in summer. No hard evidence, just body language and the content and tone of press releases. Something has soured as far as I can see.

I'll be sorry to see him go because I believe that, for all his faults, he is a thoroughly honest and genuine man and a very good coach. I also believe that he is keeping us up not down and that, if he goes, the most likely scenario is that we will go down.

Success in this situation is luck and only luck. Given Everton's financial position, there may be no bottom that we could reach once we start sliding ? including financial collapse, administration and even playing outside of the Football League in ten years. I can see no potential upside unless they find somebody stupid enough to buy the club, build a new gound, buy top class players and pay great wages. Oh look, a flying poig just went past the window.

Jay Harris
63   Posted 18/03/2011 at 23:44:50

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Jeff,
As others have pointed out, Lee inherited some of Everton's finest footballers and turned them into robots.

At the start of the decade, we were forecast for great things with some of the best players Everton ever had. We won the league in 1970-71 with I think a record number of points and looked set to dominate the league but the curse of Satan took over.

Catterick had a serious illness and Shankly's legacy saw the rise in the RS fortunes to dominate that decade whereas previously they had hardly won a thing.

We were still on their coat tails and in fact under Bingham we were on course to win the Championship in the 1974-75 season by a mile but collapsed on the run-in.

Under Gordon Lee, Everton finished third in 1977-78 (Bob Latchford topped the first division scoring chart with 30 goals), and 4th in 1978-79, after yet again looking serious title challengers for much of these seasons. However, the expectations were high given the success of Liverpool across the park, and finishes of 19th in 1979-80 and 15th in 1980-81, too close to the relegation zone for comfort, led to Lee's departure. Everton did reach the FA Cup Semi-Final in 1980, drawing with Second Division West Ham, but lost the replay.

Lee was infamous for not wanting flair players and refusing to play Duncan McKenzie, who was a crowd favourite and very skilful player. Suffice it to say the Goodison faithful did not suffer fools gladly back then and he was forced out in 1980.
Jay Harris
64   Posted 19/03/2011 at 20:03:32

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Andrew 58,

Everton were considered top 4 right up to the start of the Premier League and in fact EFC were one of the clubs leading the charge for the Premier League under Phil Carter. It is only during the Premier League our fortunes have waned.

Everton were on course to win the Championship in the 1974-75 season under Billy Bingham (some bookmakers had even stopped taking bets at Easter) but some surprising losses to lowly opposition ended the challenge and they finished 4th. After two relatively poor seasons (finishing 11th and 9th), Bingham left in 1977.

I personally liked Bingham and his teams did play football but he received mixed reactions from the supporters.

Andy Crooks
65   Posted 19/03/2011 at 21:22:21

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I agree, Jay, Billy Bingham was a decent manager who had the knack, in every job he had, of getting the best out of his players and installing discipline. His accent is a joy to behold, going from posh Northern Ireland to broad Belfast in one sentence. Didn't he sign Rioch and Mackenzie on the same day? Changed times indeed.
David Thomas
66   Posted 19/03/2011 at 23:08:43

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"We won the league in 1970-71"?

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