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Walter Smith Days......

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Did anyone notice that at one point we had 8 defenders on the pitch; 8 out of 10 outfield players...

What the fuck is goin' on here.....?! It was like being back to the Walter Smith days, when Bally stood with his arms out to the side in the centre circle, because no one knew where the hell they were supposed to be playing.

We were at a canter yesterday, scored the second and then simply stopped. I said at that point it would be typical Everton for Fulham to score, then everyone would be at panic stations for half-an-hour.

If we could see it happening from a mile off, why couldn't they....?!?!?

Andy Callan, Northumberland     Posted 21/03/2011 at 12:11:18

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Ben Jones
1   Posted 21/03/2011 at 13:28:52

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Kinda agree to a point.

The first substitution was a bit annoying. We were far too defensive.

The second substitution ? Rodwell for Bily ? worked brilliantly. Osman clicked in that role, Heitinga could become less disciplined and go forward a bit, and then we had an arguably comfortable left winger in Bily.

So Moyes did a cock up then made up for it.

Plus, why complain? We still won, Fulham still only had one clear chance after the goal and we are 2nd in the form book.

Could even get 6th? Hopefully, but more likely top half.
Tony J Williams
2   Posted 21/03/2011 at 13:30:45

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Probably because our midfielders who usually play have been injured or sold.

Simple really.

Also they must have seen it a mile off because they didn't let Fulham score the equalizer. QED.
Tony J Williams
3   Posted 21/03/2011 at 13:33:17

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We really are a miserable bunch of so and so's aren't we? We win and what do we do? ? refuse to renew, call our players old, tell everyone how inept the manager is and then compare him to Smith because no other players are available.

Gotta love being an Evertonian.
Dick Anderson
4   Posted 21/03/2011 at 13:28:56

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Yes Moyes played defenders in midfield. But are you suggesting there's a midfielder in the squad who deserves to start?

With Arteta, Pienaar (sold) and Fellaini missing Moyes has been forced to play more defenders in the starting 11. What other option does he have?

Bilyaletdinov continues to be annoyingly missing when he starts and surely you aren't suggesting Moyes play Anichebe in midfield? Surely you're not suggesting we should start Baxter in midfield either?

With a small squad and our 3 best midfielders (Arteta, Pienaar, Fellaini) no longer available, Moyes has no choice but to play defenders.

I expect Moyes to bring in a couple of midfielders in the summer.

It's not some big sign that Moyes is losing it. The squad is just light on midfielders at the moment since losing Pienaar, Fellaini and Arteta.
Jamie Tulacz
5   Posted 21/03/2011 at 13:39:16

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Man Utd played 7 defenders a couple of weeks back against Arsenal, for the whole game. Didn't do them a lot of harm.

Besides which I wouldn't necessarily count Coleman and Rodwell as defenders any more, since they've played far more games for us in midfield.
Dick Anderson
6   Posted 21/03/2011 at 13:36:59

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How do you make 8 defenders anyway?

Howard - Keeper

6 Defenders - Hibbert, Jagielka, Distin, Baines, Neville, Coleman.

3 Midfielders - Rodwell, Cahill, Osman.

1 Striker - Saha.

The subs were Heitinga (defender), Bilyletdinov (midfielder) and Beckford (striker).

Unless your counting Rodwell as a defender? Which is pretty stupid considering he's never played in defence in his whole career.
Dave Wilson
7   Posted 21/03/2011 at 13:52:00

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Fucccccckkkkkkenelllllll. talk about clutching at things to whine about.

People have been screeming for Coleman to play right mid, they get their wish he`s played 25 games there, he`s now our established RM . . but now he`s s defender again

Unless your maths is really really bad we played with 5 defenders on Saturday about four less than Man City, three less than Chelsea and two less than Man United did at home to Arsenal.

So when you ask did anybody notice we played with 8 defenders the answer is no.

and if you think we did, Here`s a simple little tester for you . . name em
James Marshall
8   Posted 21/03/2011 at 14:07:42

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We won the game, so who gives a toss? Why find anything to complain about after a win? You must one helluva fun guy to share a pint with!
Ryan Holroyd
9   Posted 21/03/2011 at 14:09:57

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Well, think about it.

We had Arteta and Fellaini out injured. Pienaar was sold. That's 3 of our first choice midfield players from the start of the season unavailable for 1 reason or another.

Rodwell has played midfield since he came into the side.

Coleman has played all season at right midfield.

Plus, Baines spends half his time galloping up the left side of the pitch anyhow.

We won the game.

You could have given credit for the beautiful goal we scored by Coleman but no. Anything to moan at.
Craig Bellew
10   Posted 21/03/2011 at 14:04:28

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A lot ? well, Dick at #4 anyway ? are saying that he has no other choice but to play defenders in varying positions. Can I just ask why Gueye and Baxter are found warming the bench then?

If not now, then I'd say within the next few games, once we are relatively safe from being pulled back into a scrap for our lives, maybe give these two lads a run out for the last few games and let's see if they can cut it at the highest level? Otherwise, ship them out and have players warming the bench who CAN make a difference next season, midfielder's too rather than just opting for safety through players you already know, like Johnny H and Pip who are not midfielders imo, square pegs and round holes as always!!

Oh I just wanted to add (I know its not part of the current topic but I touched on it above), please get rid of all the deadwood that have for far too long been on our wage bill and if we're honest are no longer needed. Yak, Vic (get whatever you can for him... ANYTHING) Vaughan, Yobo... and I'd also include unfortunately Bily who isn't in the deadwood category yet but is becoming more ineffective month by month.
Dick Anderson
11   Posted 21/03/2011 at 14:49:26

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Craig Bellew

Simple Question: Why are Gueye and Baxter found warming the bench?

Simple Answer: They are shit.

If they were any good, don't you think Moyes would play them? After all Moyes works with them on a daily basis so he must know how good they are.

Or are you one of the simpletons who believes Moyes refuses to pick his best players because of loyalty to others?

Personally' I think Moyes picks the best players available to him and Baxter and Gueye just ain't good enough.
Trevor Lynes
12   Posted 21/03/2011 at 14:55:34

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I must admit that we are negative when we are in front and its very difficult to regain the initiative once it has been given up. I watched Chelsea beat City and they continued to attack and kept the ball very well. It is far easier when a team continues to play normally instead of backing off as we tend to do even when we are obviously the best side on the day. I reckon we concede most of the time we play negatively and that is why we have drawn so many games that we have led in.

When at home we should continue to attempt to score a third or fourth goal when we are ahead and STOP worrying about what the opposition are doing. Once we are on the back foot, it's really difficult to regain the impetus to attack.

Tommy Coleman
13   Posted 21/03/2011 at 14:52:39

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How dare you question Moye's tactics when we are 8th Yes, that's right ? 8th!

According to the Mediocre Brigade it's the new 1st and the trophy and medals will be handed out at the end of the season.

Plus, with 4/6 wins we are top of the form table which is what it's really all about, not this FA/League Cup, Prem title rubbish.

Looking forward to seeing that Form Trophy/Medals at the end of the season as well.

If Moyes could just win Manager of the Month that would be The Treble, the real Treble, not the silly League, FA Cup, Euro Cup Treble nonsense.

The new Everton Treble.
Dave Richman
14   Posted 21/03/2011 at 15:07:21

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No moaning here...... 3 points will do me quite nicely.

What did make me laugh though was after Beckford came on and we 're-shuffled' the team. I remember at least two occasions ? and it may even have been more - when the strapping figure of Ossie was up against Hangeland.... challenging for the high ball. Surely the greatest mis-match in the history of football?
Chris Bannantyne
15   Posted 21/03/2011 at 14:46:42

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I sort of get your point. Rodwell has been sort of tipped as a defender or defending midfielder, Coleman started as a fullback and advanced to a winger. But I still disagree with the post.

As far as Rodwell is concerned, he's been playing midfield all season, albeit not in any one stable role, but midfield none the less. Whether or not you think he is performing particularly well is another topic. I for one am one of those that thinks he has the 'potential', and am not getting too frustrated with him.

Coleman does show that he is still an unpolished professional winger, and at times can seem a bit one dimensional, but I can't help but love his attitude and attacking nature. He will get better and better, and I think wing is the right spot for him IMO.

I do feel frustrated though that our subs are a bit square-peg-in-round-hole out of preferable position substitutions, but as others have pointed out, who else do we have? Felli and Arteta are injured, Pienaar is gone... That leaves Anichebe, and I think we are all in agreement that he is the absolute last resort... I can't blame Moyes for his substitutions at this stage because he simply just doesn't have anyone else.

One player I WOULD like to see go round is Magaye Gueye. He can play wing or striker, and I was pretty impressed with him when he played in the Australian tour. I'm not sure why Moyes hasn't used his 'secret weapon' yet, and I will not make any claims as to Moyes being the greatest manager around, but I think everyone agrees that we'd rather have him as manager than myself, so I will trust there to be a reason for Gueye not getting a run yet.

We can all hope for a few aditions in the summer (whether or not they will materialise is an all together different prospect), and we can all get frustrated at not having a bench full of classy midfielders for substitutions, but we can't really EXPECT any different considering the tools that we have to work with (pun may or may not have been intended).
Dick Anderson
16   Posted 21/03/2011 at 14:53:28

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Jan Mucha (Pointless Having An International Keeper On The Bench & Never Playing Him).

Joseph Yobo (Great Player In His Day But Everton Outgrew Him).

Yakubu (Look At His Career, Starts Off Well Loses Interest Quickly).

James Vaughan (Injury Prone, Struggling For Goals In The Championship).

Iain Turner (Looks Set For A Permanent Move To Preston)


Magaye Gueye (The Secret Weapon. Is The Secret That He's Not Very Good?)

Kieran Agard (21 Now. Never Scored A Professional Goal)

Victor Anichebe (Plays A Part But Most Say Badly)

Diniyar Bilyaletdinov (Talented But Goes Missing Most Games)

Louis Saha (Too Injury Prone)

Jermaine Beckford (Is 8 Goals For The Season Good Enough?)

Jose Baxter (Once Tipped For Big Things But Never Shown Anything On The Pitch)


Johnny Heitinga (Good Player But Seems To Want To Leave. Give HIm A Bike & A Flag & He'll Join Barcelona).

Jack Rodwell (May Well Develop Into A Great Player But At The Moment He's Decidely Average. Seems To Lack Energy & The Sideways Passing Is Annoying. Would Prefer Not To Sell But £25 million Is Too Good To Turn Down For A Player Who Isn't Even One Of Evertons Top 8 Best).
Chris Bannantyne
17   Posted 21/03/2011 at 15:13:35

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As far as Baxter is concerned, he hasn't been used much, and what I have seen hasn't been impressive, but here's hoping the kid comes good. I won't write him off before he's had a good chance.
Dick Anderson
18   Posted 21/03/2011 at 15:21:38

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I hate the idea that these kids might be good enough and they just need a chance.

Moyes works with these kids on a daily basis over a number of years.

Do you think Moyes is unaware of how good Baxter is?

Personally I think Moyes is all too aware that Baxter simply isn't good enough to start in the Premier League.

What gives Baxter the right to be given a chance? If he doesn't impress Moyes in training and reserve games then I say he shouldn't be given a chance in the first team.

People used to say the same thing about John Paul Kissock. You will find him in non-league football now.
Dick Anderson
19   Posted 21/03/2011 at 15:24:46

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Ultimately, if the kid is good enough then Moyes will bring them through to the first team, just like he did with Hibbert, Osman, Vaughan, Anichebe, Rooney, Rodwell and Coleman.
Dave Wilson
20   Posted 21/03/2011 at 15:21:15

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Tommy, nobody cares about criticism, it's the making up of shite in order to criticise that pisses people off.

Claiming we had 8 defenders on the pitch is shite and, if you want to deal in shite, fine... some of us are not as easily led.

BTW Feel very free to name the eight defenders yourself if you feel you are right.
Dick Anderson
21   Posted 21/03/2011 at 15:34:26

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I definitely don't consider Rodwell a defender. He's never played there and is a midfielder.

It's arguable whether we consider Coleman a defender now? He's played in midfield for most of his professional career.
James Marshall
22   Posted 21/03/2011 at 15:50:36

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Rodders = midfielder
Coleman = midfielder who can play right back
Pip = utility player

Baines = wingback
Jags = centre half
Distin = centre half
Hibbo = full/wingback

Heitinga = centre half/midfielder

The rest of them are clearly not even worth mentioning.

Where are these 8 defenders, and if we had 8 on the pitch, why did they let Dempsey score?

This is an outrage.

In other news ? can anyone tell me what's happened to Leon Osman? He appears to have been abducted and replaced by some guy who looks like a pretty decent midfield player!
Craig Bellew
23   Posted 21/03/2011 at 15:29:28

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Dick #11 read your post at 4. You state what other options does he have? If you think Moyes has no other choice then why does he keep two midfielders on the bench if they can't play in that position?

How can you say DM's secret weapon is shit when he has not had a chance to prove himself, and the same goes for Baxter, neither have been given a chance... so, unless you make the long trek to watch the reserves, how can you claim they are shit ?

Moyes does work with them every day but his judgement on players leaves a lot to be desired imo whether he works with them daily or not, Arteta & Saha (how many games was it without a goal) this season being prime examples of Moyes's judgement. My point was why fill spaces on the bench with players who he sees as not able to offer us anything or insist on playing defenders in a midfield position?

Question ? Dick, are you one of the simpletons who applies the saying IMWT cos you'll find that trust imo has been evaporating for some time and I hope he is one of a few casualties come this summer and he is replaced with someone who fits the billing of someone who at least WE TRUST (along with a new chairman who WE TRUST). Until then,enjoy watching square pegs going into round holes and DM filling the bench with players you and him deem SHIT!!
Gavin Ramejkis
24   Posted 21/03/2011 at 16:32:16

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What do you expect from a DM squad? What little is left with very few exceptions are defensive players and after he watched the CIS Cup final he's keen to offer David Weir a job at the club; how many fucking defensive coaches do we need FFS???

James Marshall in simple terms as you've clearly missed the point:

Rodwell - Centre Half being played as a Midfielder
Coleman - Right Back being played as a Right Winger
Neville - Right Back/Centre Half being played as a Midfielder
Baines - Left Back, we don't play 3 at the back so Wing Back is daydreaming he just happens to go forward when he has a partner on his wing working with him, not every game
Jags - Centre Half correct
Distin - Centre Half correct (can cover Left Back but hasn't for Everton)
Heitinga - Centre Half (the clue is did you watch the World Cup?)

There are 7 players, add Hibbert as Right Back and you have all 8.

Agree with you on Osman though, he is playing some of the best football I've seen him play in a Blue shirt.
Dave Wilson
25   Posted 21/03/2011 at 16:43:15

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Stop embarrasing yourelf lad, Rodwell has played an advanced midfiled role several times but has never played a competitive game at center half ? "therefore he`s a defender " lol

Coleman has only made a couple of appearances at right back as a sub and played all his other 20 odd games at right-mid ? therefore he`s defender... you couldn't make it up.

And if you know anything at all about our players, you`ll know Neville and Heitinga are utility players... BOTH have played as many games in midfield as in defense, Heitinga was only used as a makeshift defender in the World Cup. The lengths people will go to to try and make these utterly ridiculous points is becoming cringeworthy.

I suppose Jagielka is a goalkeeper.
Joe McMahon
26   Posted 21/03/2011 at 16:58:28

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I've just posted an article for submission regarding David Moyes wanting David Weir on his coaching staff (accoring to the BBC). I can see I'm going to get salughtered if published. For what it's worth (IMO) Andy to an extent has a point, in that we always seem to have plenty of defenders/utility defenders, but never plenty of forwards/strikers/attackers.
James Marshall
27   Posted 21/03/2011 at 17:11:13

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We don't have plenty of forwards/strikers/attackers because the good ones cost money. Something we dont have = no depth of decent attacking players.
Gerry Quinn
28   Posted 21/03/2011 at 17:08:45

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Move Hibbo up front.
David Thomas
29   Posted 21/03/2011 at 17:16:17

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Dave Wilson,

You're fighting a losing battle.

We won on Saturday so, instead of moaning about the result, people are moaning this week about how many defenders played and what the age of the players on the pitch was.

It's simply moaning for the sake of it.

When Alex Ferguson did it against Arsenal in the Cup it is classed as great management when Moyes does it he is being negative.

It makes me laugh though that Moyes was slated for months for not playing Coleman right midfield everyone was stating "how can we all see it but Moyes can't", now he is getting criticised for playing him there.

Jack Rodwell has played 80+ games in the first team for Everton in midfield and never played for us in defence (has he ever played in defence for the England Under-21s either?).
Tony J Williams
30   Posted 21/03/2011 at 17:19:19

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Dave, Rodwell has played one game at centre half.... just the one mind. Not a defender by any stretch of the imagination.
James Marshall
31   Posted 21/03/2011 at 17:29:59

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I'd love to see Hibbo play upfront. Then we could just hoof the ball up to him like we did with Duncan in the team, because of Hibbo's aerial prowess.
David Thomas
32   Posted 21/03/2011 at 17:42:35

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Which game did he play in defence? I can't remember that.
Ray Roche
33   Posted 21/03/2011 at 17:35:50

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Dick Anderson, you say: "Simple Question: Why are Gueye and Baxter found warming the bench?
Simple Answer: They are shit.

If they were any good, don't you think Moyes would play them? After all Moyes works with them on a daily basis so he must know how good they are."

With respect, Moyes also worked with Coleman on a daily basis but after weeks of Toffeewebbers saying he should be given a chance at right mid, Moyes finally gave him his chance and he has been a revelation. So maybe Moyes could do with a bit of lateral thinking. We could see it, why not Moyes?

And Hibbert made his first team debut under Smith.

Dave Wilson
34   Posted 21/03/2011 at 18:11:28

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Tony / David

A couple of seasons ago, half the senior squad were still on their jollies when we played at the Rioch in a pre-season friendly. Rodwell was asked to play center half then and was absolutely ragdolled by some no mark striker... he hasn't been anywhere near our back four since.

Jagielka has actually spent more time between the sticks than Coleman and Rodwell combined have played in defence for Everton... doesn't make him a goalie though.
Trevor Mackie
35   Posted 21/03/2011 at 18:19:55

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If Moyes plays with less than 8 defenders the earth rotates slightly slower.
Gavin Ramejkis
36   Posted 21/03/2011 at 18:05:35

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Dave Wilson, I responded to the dross on here and get your embarrassment back, tut tut, before breaking onto the first team and his development can you tell us all in your previous position as Youth Coach at Everton FC where you played him, you seem to know so much when did you give up the job?

As far as Heitinga and Neville go, try looking up their career stats and what was their most prominent position? When you've exhausted that, learn how not to walk on your hands as you're clearly talking out of your hoop lad.

Simon Jenkins
37   Posted 21/03/2011 at 19:00:40

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Seamus Coleman is not a right full-back in a million years. After the season's displays as a right winger, and scoring 6 goals from that position, it is as clear as day that the lad is a right winger.

Defensively he isn't great. Bombing forward he is tremendous, and he's also got the great knack of being in the right place at the right time.

Joe McMahon
38   Posted 21/03/2011 at 18:58:57

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James Marshall ? It can be done with some vision. Bily cost approx £11.5M, the following strikers/forwards/attackers were loaned in January:

Obafemi Martins
Roque Santa Cruz
Daniel Sturridge
John Carew
Robbie Keane
Carlos Vela

You may not agree, but certainly any of these would be a better option than Bily on the left wing and Anichebe? And these guys cost a lot less than the £11.5M spent on Bily and renewing Vic's contract.

Joe McMahon
39   Posted 21/03/2011 at 19:06:32

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James, I do like your angle on Hibbo though, he needs to break his scoring duck... Christ, over 200 appearances and not one goal! It's hard to believe; I wonder if that's a Premier League record?
Dave Wilson
40   Posted 21/03/2011 at 18:49:32

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Where do you think Hibbert played all those seasons? Centre-forward? Until this season Neville played the overwhelming majority of his games for Everton in midfield.

You must think we were all born yesterday, we watch Everton too and we all know where Coleman and Rodwell play and no amount of your babble will alter that.

Here`s a tip, when you describe a player as a defender, try using the same guidelines as every other footy fan, make sure you are talking about somebody who occasionally plays in defence.
James Marshall
41   Posted 21/03/2011 at 19:24:12

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Oh I agree entirely ? Bily has been a massive waste of money and Anichebe is an embarassment. I'd take any of those others over the pair of them anyday.

Trouble is, we never seem to be at the races, even for loan players of late ? why? Possibly because Moyes hasn't been allowed to add to the wage bill lately?

I'm speculating, rather than making a statement, by the way.
Ryan Holroyd
42   Posted 21/03/2011 at 19:20:38

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Dave Wilson

I totally agree with you. It's Moyes bashing for the sake of it.

Rodwell has never played a competetive game for Everton as a centre-half.

Coleman has played a game 'n a half at right back (Spurs and Huddersfield) and played all season as on the right wing.

Do some people who say they go the actually watch the match.
David Price
43   Posted 21/03/2011 at 19:20:27

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"Defender", Seamus Coleman, scores 6 goals. What scoring feats did Pienaar reach with us, I wonder?

Some silly arguments going on here, funny though.

Ryan Holroyd
44   Posted 21/03/2011 at 19:33:22

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Plus Hibbert played midfield for the youth team. Is he now a midfielder?
Mark Stone
45   Posted 21/03/2011 at 19:26:38

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Pretty poor comeback, Gavin. Because Rodwell played centre-half for the academy, he is a defender ? despite the fact that as a pro he has played all his games as a midfielder? According to your logic Hibbo (who played midfield for the Academy) isn't a defender. So there is one to check off the list, eh?

Didn't Shearer start as a Goalkeeper at Southampton academy? Was he played out of position for England, Newcastle, Blackburn all of those years???

I can't believe that out of Arsene Wenger and the whole roundabout of Chelsea managers over the last few years and NONE of them have played Ashley Cole in his real position on the left of midfield!!!

Daniel J Johnson
46   Posted 21/03/2011 at 19:28:31

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Rodwell has played some games at centre-half for the Under-21s and was definitely thought of as a defender by many when he first broke through. I personally think he's only ever shone in a free role behind the striker.

Neville has always drifted around positionally ? I seem to remember him playing a lot in midfield for United and full back for England (tho I could be wrong).

It seems an obvious point that the main reason we seem to utilise players in such a way is that we don't have a large squad and Moyes plays with that in mind; ie, ones that can do a job in a number of roles.

Andy Crooks
47   Posted 21/03/2011 at 19:44:06

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I'm fed up with back to the Walter Smith days as a pejorative term. I mean all the trophies we've won and all the wonderful football we've played just put him to shame.
David Thomas
48   Posted 21/03/2011 at 19:52:07

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If you can't see we have made improvements since Smith then I am not sure you actually watch Everton.

Our average final position under Smith was 14th. Under Moyes its about 7/8th.
Andy Crooks
49   Posted 21/03/2011 at 20:21:02

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David, of course I see improvements. I just feel that Walter Smith did a fair job under deplorable conditions. He was let down by the chairman yet behaved with dignity and integrity. He doesn't deserve the vilification he gets.
Dave Wilson
50   Posted 21/03/2011 at 20:27:25

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But Moyes does? Even though he was let down even more badly?
David Thomas
51   Posted 21/03/2011 at 20:35:12

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Dave Wilson has beaten me to it with his post.

I don't see how you can say that about Smith and then on the other hand be writing posts and articles attacking Moyes when he has had to work under similar constraints.
Andy Crooks
52   Posted 21/03/2011 at 20:36:37

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Dave, I just knew you'd be on next. Recently, Moyes has been let down by Kenwright. To some extent his large salary has made this palatable. He has, over his tenure, been better treated than Walter Smith. It is my view that a different coach, particularly over the last few seasons, would have done a better job. Your view is different; fair enough.

Smith was a good manager before Everton and was a good manager after Everton. You think anyone can succeed at Rangers or Celtic? A huge myth. They are two of the hardest jobs in football. Ask Neil Lennon. Ask Ally McCoist this time next year. Good men have failed there.

I believe that David Moyes has what it takes to be a success at Celtic and, if and when he does, he will have my respect. Rangers and Celtic do better in Europe than Everton. Is Europe a two-horse race too?

Would you think it fair if DM goes elsewhere and wins trophies that his time at Everton was looked back on with contempt?

Dave Wilson
53   Posted 21/03/2011 at 20:54:57

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I`m not attacking either of them, Andy, I leave that to you.
Andy Crooks
54   Posted 21/03/2011 at 20:59:06

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David, I was originally a supporter of David Moyes. In fact my first ever post on this site was to call for restraint on the comments lest it should affect him and his players. If I'd been commenting on this site after Smith's defeat at Boro, I'd have been calling for him to go too. However, I believe the constraints on Moyes have been less than those on Smith. No doubt, though, both have been failed by their chairman.
Brian Waring
55   Posted 21/03/2011 at 21:17:08

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I don't even think Moyes knows what Rodwell is.
David Hallwood
56   Posted 21/03/2011 at 21:20:48

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I'll chip in with some support for Smith. I think he just lost heart because he had to sell the entire midfield on two occasions (history about to repeat itself?) and it became a case of make do and mend. I know a lot of people on this site, and sometimes I'm one of them to criticize Moyes for negative tactics but what he?s achieved has been remarkable with what he?s had to work with, but how long will it be before he downs tools or the balancing act comes undone?
Thomas Williams
57   Posted 22/03/2011 at 00:05:47

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Can't see how we had much option really. No Fellaini, Arteta, Pienaar (he started the season)... if you are counting Coleman that is clutching at straws; most wanted him right MF. You are also forgetting Baines rarely plays in defence, would people on here prefer him to bring Anichebe on FFS!!
Ben Jones
58   Posted 22/03/2011 at 00:19:55

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It's a bit of a ridiculous comment, where I did agree the amount of defenders on the pitch was a bit ridiculous, but there was never 8 defenders.

You can agree with Jagielka, Baines, Hibbert and Distin obviously.

Coleman is to me a right winger now, could play right wing or defence in the future.

Neville and Heitinga.... well not the utility players thing Dave was saying anyway, everyone has their favourite position.

Heitinga a definitely centre half and never a makeshift centre half in the World Cup!!! Has always played there with Matijsen or Ooijer for a number of years now.

Neville is a difficult one because he started as a full-back then began to enjoy playing holding mid towards the end of his Utd career. I'd stick with the full-back although he's playing terrific as a holding mid.

Rodwell, touted as a future centre-half but has said many times he's a midfielder and he enjoys it. Definitely a midfielder in my book.
John Daley
59   Posted 22/03/2011 at 02:24:20

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He can play eleven dinner ladies for all I care, as long as we win.
Eric Myles
60   Posted 22/03/2011 at 04:39:22

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You're about 20 years out, Walter Smith wasn't manager when Bally played for us, it was Catterick.
Michael Kenrick
61   Posted 22/03/2011 at 05:41:10

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Eric, what about that lad Michael Ball? Dunnie's mate.
Andy Callan
62   Posted 22/03/2011 at 07:45:12

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I think quite a lot of you are missing the point here.....

I wasn't moaning about beating Fulham; for fucks sake 3-points is 3-points. Seeing a win after driving 220 miles to Goodision is ALWAYS good. However we nearly chucked it away there after we stopped playing.

My point was that it's a sorry state of affairs when we've no midfielders or strikers to choose from... well, players that are any good anyway.

If Baxter and Gueye are no good, then why the fuck are they just warning the bench then? Answer ? coz we've no-one else. Which is point I was makin'....!!!!!!
Tony J Williams
63   Posted 22/03/2011 at 08:59:05

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Andy, and if my auntie had bollocks she would be my uncle.

We nearly threw it away? We didn't, we won and that's all the record points and the League will say.

If we came on here after the Reading games and said we nearly got a draw, can you imagine how many posters would have a choice response to that?
Andy Callan
64   Posted 22/03/2011 at 11:26:07

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Ha ha ha ha ha ha - oh Tony...... and you say that I whinge....

I'd bet a big gold pig (if I had one of course) that you weren't even there on Saturday lad.

If you're happy with the currently state of pure mediocrity and the utter shite we're getting fed on the park, week-in and week-out, then you're in need of some professional help.
Dave Wilson
65   Posted 22/03/2011 at 11:31:45

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Nobody is happy with things at the moment, but making up shite like we played with eight defenders will always draw a response.

It's a bit like crying wolf, drawing attention to shit that didn't happen takes attention away from shit that did.

BTW, the guy's a season ticket holder, so don't go making silly bets either.
Seamus Murphy
66   Posted 22/03/2011 at 11:54:27

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Andy ? If you exaggerate to make a point then someone will inevitably call you out on it and your point will be diminished.
Eugene Ruane
67   Posted 22/03/2011 at 11:31:12

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Tommy Coleman (13) - spot fucking on!

The problem with standards slipping is that they tend to slip very, very slowly. So slowly in fact that many (it appears) often don't realise it... until it's too late.

Consequently we get one-eyed, shouty simpletons (his word!) like Dick Anderson who can't believe that some Evertonians are not dancing in the streets after a nervy 2-1 win at home to Fulham.

'We won - shut the fuck up!'

Not only that, they seem outraged that some are prepared to question the manager about his team selections and or/tactics.

Well it is this refusal to condemn and eagerness to make excuses for (even praise) the incredibly average, that is, in my opinion, partly (nb: only partly!) responsible for our present standard of uninspiring, naive, huff-and-puff, lottery football.

And the best that some can come up with as an argument for anyone putting forward a contrary pint of view?

"It's simply moaning for the sake of it" (maybe as lame and desperate a counter-argument as exists).

Well fine, here's me 'moaning for the sake of it' (nb: not because I see standards slipping or because, week by week, season by season, I see Everton FC becoming Coventry City).

We have for the most part this season, played football that is/has been staggeringly easy for the opposition to figure out.

We have a team of no pace.

We have a team that goes to fucking pieces when we go a goal up.

We have a manager devoid of imagination.

We have a manager who buys players, doesn't play them and is then 'defended' by people pointing out he's made the right decision, as said players are 'shit' (if you can figure that bit of 'logic' out, please let me know!).

We have a manager who works for a useless bullshitting puddin', has been given fuck-all to spend by that useless bullshitting puddin', yet says next to nothing and just plods on, doing the same old... same old.

We have a coach who might as well be standing in Lewis's window.

We're going backwards.

Oh and many view protesting to get rid of those who have fucked Everton as 'kopite bahaviour' (nb: even though it has been proved to work).

But hey " you're going to believe uuuuuuuus, we're gonna finish 8th!"

(or 11th... 9th maybe..).

Tony J Williams
68   Posted 22/03/2011 at 12:26:41

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Andy, where do you want to leave the big gold pig for me to pick up?
Dave Wilson
69   Posted 22/03/2011 at 12:49:53

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Do you really think Tommy Coleman is spot on?
Do you really think anybody is attacking a post by somebody criticising Moyes? Or do you think they`re questioning the need to make shit up like "we played 8 defenders"?

Do you really think that anybody thinks 8th is the new first? Really? I`d like to see a post or be introduced to that guy. Personally, I think you won't be able to introduce me because it's made-up shite.

And do really believe anybody ? other than Tommy himself ? has pointed to the form table? Or is that more made-up shite?

It`s a bit like me saying "Ha ha ha, you lot thought we`d be in the Rymans by now and your all wrong" but I won't, know why? Because I know nobody said it and I would then be sinking to the same level and dreaming up arguments I think I can win.

You want people to stop being pleased with mediocrity? Simple; stop imagining they are, stop mistaking an argument as apologism simply because its contrary to yours.

NOBODY is happy with what's happening at our club at the moment, we are in deep deep shit. some people are hoping that by hanging in there, we may still have a club when Kenwright eventually fucks off.

I see Moyes`s shortcomings a mile off, I could put him away in a heartbeat and I wouldn't need any made-up shit or silly accusations to back up my point. But he`s the man we`ve got. You and others think battering away at him is the way forward, I think otherwise, I think backing him is more beneficial.

I have known great Everton sides, I have known shite ones, this one makes me feel like putting a fucken gun to my head at times, so I really don't need some joker telling me I`m delighted with this fucken nightmare.
David Thomas
70   Posted 22/03/2011 at 13:28:19

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Who has suggested that any Evertonian should be "dancing in the streets" because of the Fulham result?
Craig Bellew
71   Posted 22/03/2011 at 15:33:18

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Dave #69 - You mention Eugene and others think battering away at DM is the way forward but you think otherwise and backing him is more beneficial.

Firstly, isn't that what TW is all about? Supporters with differing opinions, hence I or maybe Eugene will have a pop at DM but you think otherwise, thus the discussions/arguments etc begin.

Secondly, the buck stops with DM whether he has been working under Walter-style restraints or not. The man should do a Keegan and hold his hands up and say I can't take you any further.

This was the season when we were going to make a change with what he called "his best team whilst in charge" but he has been found out now for what he truly is, a manager lacking ideas or a vision of how to galvanise a team and produce consistent good results. We don't expect 'great' as the squad does have limitations... but 'good' or better than what they and he has produced this season would have been a lot better than the garbage we've seen for the most part.

IMO, the sooner he has been given his P45 or preferably steps down, thus saving us a few quid having to pay up the ridiculous new contract he recently signed, the better, and us being top of any ridiculous form guide does not hide the fact he needs to go, along with the fat controller!!

David Thomas
72   Posted 22/03/2011 at 17:17:03

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I know I will get slated for this question, but I will ask it anyway.

Who would you replace David Moyes with? In your opinion, who on the money we pay Moyes would be able to come in and perform better than what Moyes has done over the last 9 years.

I ask this question because of the names that have been mentioned in the past Moyes has finished above these managers more often than not in previous seasons, ie, McClaren and O'Neill and will more than likely finish above Coyle and Holloway (managers who have been mentioned over the last few months) this season?

I'm not attacking your opinion, I am just interested.
Tom Bowers
73   Posted 22/03/2011 at 17:30:20

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It is all too evident that we are in a bad way financially and now on the injury front. The quicker the season ends the better. The question on every Evertonian's lips however is what will happen before next season, if anything?

Well, Everton will get some money coming in as every club does and, if by some miracle we get an investor, then perhaps we can be optimistic about the next 12 months. We have to offload some players who are not consistent enough and maybe some who are always injured or getting too old.

Yakubu doesn't want to come back and many will think that's a good thing but we have Anichebe who cannot score, Saha who scores but is injured too much, Cahill who has been of no use since the Asian Cup and I think is not fully fit. This leaves Beckford who can score but is not a top class strkier. Vaughan is obviously not rated by Moyes which leave s Everton woefully inadequate in the scoring department and if that doesn't change before next season then it will be real depressing.

We have had some bright spots this season namely the form of Baines and Distin with some recent return to form of Arteta and Fellaini and the continuing emergence of Rodwell and Coleman. Personally I think that over the last 8 games Moyes should give more playing time to Duffy and Baxter with maybe an outing for Gueye. If not then he should farm them out and bring in some loan players who may be of good use next season.

Andy Crooks
74   Posted 22/03/2011 at 17:42:33

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David, you may get slated for asking this question but anyone who answers it will get slated even more.
Eugene Ruane
75   Posted 22/03/2011 at 16:34:38

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Dave Wilson (69), yes I really think Tommy Coleman (13) is spot on.

There was actually a clue as to whether or not I really thought it.

That clue being that I fucking well wrote it down and posted it.

(obviously too subtle for you, but if you look hard you can find these clues).

You then go on basically to call others opinions (as that's what/all they are) 'made up shite' and regarding Moyes say..

"I see Moyes`s shortcomings a mile off, I could put him away in a heartbeat"

You then add..

"I think backing him is more beneficial".


Well THERE is where we differ.

You see I also see Moyes's shortcomings a mile off and - CONSEQUENTLY! - don't think backing him is beneficial.

It's a logic thing, kind of - 'Why would I (or anyone) see it as a beneficial to back someone they DON'T think is up to the job?'.

By the way, keep this in mind.

'Made up shite' is all down to interpretation.

Personally I don't give a fuck if we play 8 strikers, 8 defenders, or 8 midfielders if we compete.

If however we don't (nb: and we fucking don't!) people are more than entitled to question tactics and selection.

You've almost bust a blood-vessel because someone called Rodwell and Coleman defenders.

Well I don't personally see them (now) as defenders, but it is hardly the lie of the century if that's what they were until very recently, that's what they could be in the future and that is where they have (presumably) plied their trade since they were nippers.

By the way, if you're so sure of players positions, tell me what Rodwell's position ACTUALLY is?

Oh and what's Bily's position...and Arteta's?

(nb: actually, don't tell me, tell Moyes!)

You finish with..

"I have known great Everton sides, I have known shite ones, this one makes me feel like putting a fucken gun to my head at times, so I really don't need some joker telling me I`m delighted with this fucken nightmare"

This is VERY odd.

keeping in mind you mentioned 'made up shite' at least three times in your post, show me ANY sentence or paragraph where I have mentioned your name.

Where does it say "I think Dave Wilson is delighted with the 'fucken' nightmare"?

(clue - it fucking well doesn't).

Looks like 'made up shite' to me (that or a guilty conscience).

Dave Wilson (70) you say..

"Who has suggested that any Evertonian should be "dancing in the streets" because of the Fulham result?"

Sorry, I am not explaining hyperbole again (15 times is my limit!).

Here's a link, figure it out.
Dave Wilson
76   Posted 22/03/2011 at 18:17:05

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You seem to be having difficulty distinguishing the difference between opinion and made up shite . .allow me to assist.

Imagine the people who make up shite to be a bunch of arl women gossiping on the corner, they`re talking about the fella at number 27 who has an eye for the birds, he who also likes a bevy - heinous crimes as far as his detractors are concerned

Of course they could slaughter him for being as drunken womaniser . . .but its not enough, they see this guy as a twat so they are going to bury him.
They accuse him of being a thief, a burglar (played eight defenders) even though they have absolutely nothing to back this up, he`s a twat he MUST be a burglar,

But then something the accusers hadn't bargained for happens ; a couple of the group say "hold on a minute" you have no grounds to accuse him of thieving " . . The accusers fucken explode ! They round on the people who want fair play - "You bastards ( apologists ) you can see no wrong in him , you're just as bad as he is, ITS YOUR FAULT WE HAVE SO MANY FUCKEN BREAK INS IN THIS STREET ! ! !

The people looking for fair play point out " but we haven't had any break ins"


Opinions about where a player plays, isnt really and issue , but when somebody comes on here claiming we played Eight defenders it becomes one and if the guy cant name those defenders, its kinda sounds less like an opinion and more like he`s making it up.

When somebody claims an "imaginary "brigade" are claiming eight is the new first, but when challenged he becomes silent ; its not an opinion, he`s making it up

When somebody draws attention to the form Guide and claims others have - when they really havent, its not an opinion : he`s making shite up

When he claims they will be new trophies, is that Opinion ? na especially when he`s the only one who's mentioned it, he`s pretending people who dont agree with him think there should be . . he`s making the fucken thing up.

Now if your happy to support this as being spot on, then fair play to you, knock yourself out .

I could give you a long list of this "made up shit " if you`d like me to, but despite it being totally untrue you`d probably tell me it was down to intepretation, opinion. I`d be pissing against the wind

Oh by the way Eugene I didnt say it was you who said I was delighted with this nightmare, I was referring to the many posts that are still on view on this site where some joker tells me and every one else who are`nt taken by this made up shite that we are delighted with the way things are going.

The guilty conscience isnt mine mate.
Dave Wilson
77   Posted 22/03/2011 at 20:38:23

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"Why would I or anybody see it as beneficial to back somebody they dont think is up to the job"

You're right of course, Eugene, let's overlook the fact that he`s here to stay. Let's fucken hammer him into the ground... then we`ll see the benefits.
Eugene Ruane
78   Posted 22/03/2011 at 20:34:40

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Yes Dave, but imagine a banana salesman has a cheese sandwich for lunch, but it's blue cheese (EVERTON!!) and after eating, he starts scratching his plums and finds he has a small wart on his left bollock, so he goes to the clap clinic (APPLAUDING MOYES AT GOODISON!!) and has an injection in his bell..


Congratulations Dave, just about unfuckingreadable!

Certainly the single worst, most convoluted, unintelligible analogy I've ever seen on TW.

Have you ever seen when Alan Partridge gives us an analogy...but can't resist explaining what he actually means at the same time?

(guessing not)

(seriously, read it back to yourself, impossible to follow).
Eugene Ruane
79   Posted 22/03/2011 at 21:10:37

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Dave you say..

"You're right of course Eugene, let's overlook the fact that he`s here to stay. Let's fucken hammer him into the ground... then we`ll see the benefits."

Well, Mr Shortcomings is CERTAINLY 'here to stay' if everyone follows your "let's give him a dead easy ride" plan.

I mean why would he even think of fucking off if he never hears a discouraging word ? right?

Genius! (that'll learn 'im!)

Pity the Egyptians didn't come up with that concept.

"Our awful leader must go, it is the end for him, let's all... erm... NOT give him a hard time!"

And by the way (for the zillionth time on TW) 'you are' is 'YOU'RE', not 'your'

(shit, that kind of makes you the winner. You see I'm none the wiser, but you actually are!)
Dave Wilson
80   Posted 22/03/2011 at 22:24:40

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Really sorry you found my post unfuckingreadable and Alan Partridge like and that you felt that I felt the need to explain it.

Dave Wilson
81   Posted 22/03/2011 at 22:40:43

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Sigh - even longer than yours, even longer than the sigh you used on another thread today when somebody else didnt see things your way.

Eugene; you say... actually, what did you say?

I don't give a flying fuck if you criticise Moyes, he gets paid enough and if you think you can drive him out then you go for it fella. But if he`s really soooo bad, why the fuck do you feel the need to applaud made-up shite?

One more thing Eugene; ask yourself if you know an Evertonian who doesn't see Moyes`s shortcomings.

Ask yourself do you know or even know of, an Evertonian who is delighted with our current predicament... and thinks 8th is the new first.

That they think Moyes has been hung out to dry and another manager ? any manager ? would struggle big time in the same circumstances means they see things differently to you, that's all

It doesn't mean they are blind.

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