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Is there any alternative to the Moyes model?

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To my mind, Moyes is interchangeable with all the media friendly deadwood ? Curbishley, Allardyce, Bruce, Southgate, Strachan, Chris Coleman... the list goes on. Having got their snouts in the Premier League trough, they accomplished absolutely nothing.

Moyes will be gone before next season, his latest "I'm staying"... with caveats, is a sop and anyone believing that a phone call from Randy Lerner or whoever won't be welcomed by him is deluded.

Personally, I'm not arsed; I'm sick and tired of "centre-half" football, eye-bleeding caution and the pure uninspiring misery that surrounds him.

I really couldn't give a shit about a billionaire not bankrolling us, contrary to populist theory and despite what Sky and the papers tell you, it's always been the same ? the haves and the have-nots.

Moreover, the manager's job remains the same, ie deal with the circumstances, find good players (not just defenders!!!) and compete.

The coterie of Moyes-like managers that plaque football is what concerns me. Is there anyone of courage out there who might choose to build a team of hope and purpose who believes in footballers of ability and not just centre-halves???

Or is the game so bereft we are doomed to endure the eternal spectre of years of Moyes/Smith hopelessness.

Is such an alternative model available?

Ron Broadstairs, Upton, The Wirral     Posted 04/04/2011 at 17:45:37

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Adam Cunliffe
1   Posted 04/04/2011 at 22:20:32

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Firstly, I can't see Moyes going to Villa. Similar size club, similar history, similar stadium, a step sideways if not backwards. Why go to a team we've just drew with and really should've beaten? He'll hold out for Celtic if anything I think.

Always thought I wouldn't shed any tears was Moyes to leave, but having read that list it really does worry me. Martin Jol maybe?

Personally, I think the problem lies with Mr Kenwright. His lack of investment into the club, combined with other flaws pointed out on numerous occasions on this site just lead me to a complete and utter sense of hopelessness, and to be quite honest it breaks my fucking heart!

Don't get me wrong I'm by no means excusing Moyes. His defensive tactics and insistence on 4-5-1 seriously drive me insane sometimes, but what's the answer? I don't know but we need something to change and maybe losing Moyes for a hungry Championship manager, combined with a bit of investment (preferably minus Kenwright) will be the way forward I think.

So with a heavy heart I think we'll all have to say goodbye to Moyes, be it this summer or soon after. Either way, the main problem lies up top, not with the manager.

Nice post by the way Ron.
Frank McGregor
2   Posted 04/04/2011 at 22:27:20

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Quite a bit off the posting just thought I would mention I was in "Vera Cruz" Mexico on Saturday 19 March, arrived downtown at 2:30pm, walked into this restaurant and bar and couldn't believe the Everton and Fulham game was on TV in the lounge! I watched the whole game. Sounds quite different when commentator shouts "Gooooooal!!!" So I guess we do have global exposure.
James Flynn
3   Posted 04/04/2011 at 22:13:31

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Wow, Ron ? Do you paint the walls in your house with an 8 foot roller? Pretty broad strokes you use here.

There's nothing wrong with Moyes except he hasn't had the cash (or luck) to get guys who finish consistently. There's nothing else wrong with Moyes or the club (and by that I mean the players, not Kenwright) that wouldn't be fixed quickly with a Henry, Van Nistelrooy, or Ronaldo up top.

Those types are the reason the clubs they play for challenge for trophies and no other reason that Moyes isn't doing at EFC.

Let's take all of SAF's predators and replace them with those playing the same positions for EFC since Moyes arrived. Flip the 2 managers and you'd get the same results.
Jamie Crowley
4   Posted 04/04/2011 at 22:59:51

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There is a model that exists ? this low budget go-for-it and buy footballers of ability on a shoe string budget and not center-halves.
See Blackpool. Ian Holloway.

They're currently fighting for their lives to stay up, and I personally don't think they will.

Or maybe West Brom under Mowbray?

I have no answers to the dilemma...
Matt Willey
5   Posted 04/04/2011 at 23:11:20

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The model you are referring to is Ian Holloway's Blackpool ? formulated with a similar net spend and budget to that achieved and available to Moyes at Everton.

Blackpool play open, attacking, passing football.

Blackpool will likely be relegated at the end of the season, if a similar fate happened to Everton, mortgaged some £90m plus, it would be curtains forever. So be careful what you wish for.

Whilst Moyes has many faults, he has at least formulated a squad with superior quality (evidenced consistently by league position) to all other teams with similar or even somewhat greater budgets than ours.

14 of the Premier League's current chairmen would cut their right arm off to have Moyes. He remains the best £ for £ manager in the Premier League by a long distance, especially as he has very little room for manoeuvre in terms of expanding the squad.

The fact that we drew and should have won against Villa at the weekend with the horrendous injury list, enforced loan-outs and two debutants is testament to the organisational skills of the man.

To criticise the defensive football right now is frankly ill-timed and puerile; yes, he deserved much criticism earlier in the season but on current form no way.
James Flynn
6   Posted 05/04/2011 at 00:48:45

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Frank (2) - Did the announcer call, "Gooooooooooooooooooool"!!!!!! Then repeat at lung-busting decibils?

That was Andres Cantor. If so, the best caller of goals in any language.
Kenn Crawford
7   Posted 05/04/2011 at 00:30:08

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Gentlemen, whether you like Moyes or not, it matters not because those who like him will settle for mediocrity and those that don't like him want Everton to play football.

I am in the "don't like" group and have never liked him; yes, he stabilised us but, since then, what? ? a 4th place finish and a FA Cup Final.

On the other side of the ledger he has been responsible for some of Evertons worst defeats and finishes in our long history, as the third longest serving manager in the EPL I like many Evertonians expect better from him. This is the squad he assembled and the players he wanted. Please don't give me the no money shite as it doesn't wash, he has bought some great bargains but has also wasted a lot on duds.

We invariably start the season slowly or badly (choose which one you prefer) Whose fault is that? The Manager's ? it is his job to have the team prepared and ready to perform; the tactics are his, the team selection is his, the guileless substitutions are his, and the selection of coaching staff was his, ie, all defenders... and we still can't keep a clean sheet.

Boring football; the only time he tries something new is when his hand is forced through injuries. Add to this his wages... NOT GOOD ENOUGH!

Okay, I have had my say, but as an Evertonian for 59 years I am entitled to my opinion ? which is: I am fed up with the sterile shite he calls football.

Over to the IMWT brigade.

Rob Keys
8   Posted 05/04/2011 at 01:34:52

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Blackpool and Holloway? Di Matteo and West Brom? I think the comparisons have to be rexamined. I don't think it's an issue of IMWT brigade defending the man here. Perhaps the answer is going abroad for non-Brits as coaches and managers? 'Appy Harry is the only other one producing results.

On another side-note, with all due respect to Kenn and all, I find it amusing that people have to qualify that the number of years they are as Everton fans. It's almost as if they are concerned that their opinions are valued less/more if this is announced. It's a football opinion :) if a person makes sense, he shouldn't be judged on how long he is an Evertonian or not. My two cents worth. :)

Gavin Ramejkis
9   Posted 05/04/2011 at 02:08:13

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Blackpool's weaknesses were discussed on MotD2 and clearly showed big gaps between their defence, resolving that would sort out a lot of their goals and not ultimately cripple the way the bring the ball through midfield and forward, they show good counter-attacking football which has very little to do with their defence. Despite them leaking goals, they are still a bright light in what has been a really shit Premier League season all round for a lot of sides.

My personal views on Moyes are that he is stubborn beyond belief to change his game plan, often to his detriment, and that he is a mid- to upper-table manager but nothing more... Giving him money may allow him to buy some better players but his stubborn mindset wouldn't change overnight into an attacking manager, it's just not his way.
Stephen Leary
10   Posted 05/04/2011 at 03:34:34

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Jol, Van Gaal, Lambert, Sven ? that would be my shortlist and all four would get us playing the football we should with the players we have. But realistically, with Kenwright still there, it will be Gary Megson in charge next season.
Don Kiddick
11   Posted 05/04/2011 at 04:56:14

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Please let's not start comparing Blackpool's season to ours or Holloway's merits to Moyes's shortcomings...

Yes, Holloway is a character... but he is having the piss taken out of him at every interview by the media, Holloway did a great job getting Blackpool promoted and they have been entertaining to watch but the fact is they will go down either this season or next and will probably not return in my lifetime... and by the way, they have only scored 3 more goals than us, and we have been shite in front of goal this season.

We should all be glad Moyes came along and steadied the ship. He does baffle me with some things he does and pisses me off at the same time... but, without a doubt, we would be playing in a lower division without him at the helm.

Let's get this season finished, probably still finish in top 8 slot, see if we can get rid of some of the lesser lights, get a bit of cash together, and use the summer to get a few players in... if we can.

Lynn Thorne
12   Posted 05/04/2011 at 06:48:36

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Think it's been said before - But BE Careful what you wish for!!!!! Charlton thought they could do better than Curbishley.

FFS ? we have lost only 10 games in 55. Yes, we have drawn too many. But I don't think Moyes is the problem. WE NEED MONEY!

Yes, he has made poor buys, but which manager hasn't? Yes, he dithers on subs, is cautious... but I honestly don't think any of the options on offer would be any different.

I do not want us to be mediocre or relegated. It would be nice to sign players on everyone's wish list, but I would also like an Aston Martin and 4 luxury holidays a year. It's not going to happen unless investment is forthcoming and that's Kenwright's problem.

Damien McKay
13   Posted 05/04/2011 at 09:06:20

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I don't normally post on here, I just read the comments from fellow Evertonians. However, this one has got me a bit pissed off.

Yes, Moyes has done a great job and deserves credit and we should be grateful for the job he has done in STEADYING the ship. However, Moyes is a Steady Eddie who is never willing to take risks and in my opinion will never win a major league or cup in his career. And I did say major not the Scottish league or cup or the Johnsons Paint Trophy.

Moyes is just not a WINNER ? his mentality is always safety first and I was saying after the weekends result that he would've been happy with a draw before the ball was even kicked. Now I know we have a depleted squad, but his attitude must be rubbing off on some of the players with negative comments and bizarre tactics etc.

Also, his tactics and substitions must also baffle the players if we can see it so can the players maybe even more so. Who else in the League is as negative as us this season?? How many other teams play one up front at HOME to BLACKPOOL??

We should be grateful, like I said... but why should we settle for mediocre?? He has had 9 years and maybe he will be here for another 9 but we need a change at the top and Kenwright needs to sell, until then we will have to be happy with the negative, defeatist, David Moyes.
Tony Waring
14   Posted 05/04/2011 at 09:24:16

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Moyes has many faults ? they've been well documented over the years ? but the fact remains that he's consistently kept us in the right half of the table since he arrived with damn all to spend compared with the Sky favourites.

Anyone who claims money is not all that important is having a larf; vide Man City and the rest of the millionarios. If DM had cash to splash, it would be a different story; likewise a little less Scottish caution which is probably his major shortcoming.

Dan McKie
15   Posted 05/04/2011 at 09:50:14

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Damien, to be fair, that 1 up front against Blackpool did knock 4 goals in, although it was Beckford coming on that eventually made us pull away from them in that game.
Anthony Hughes
16   Posted 05/04/2011 at 10:04:54

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I'm not a big Moyes fan but, unless we have a change of Board, then we will never have a chance of competing at the top level. I've no doubt another manager may play more attractive football and we would probably have some "harem scarem" matches full of goals either end. However, unless we have more money to buy better players to play at a higher level, then whoever is in charge is going up against our useless Board all the time.
Dave Wilson
17   Posted 05/04/2011 at 10:02:12

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Interesting read, Ron

I`m at a complete loss to see how you managed to bracket Moyes with that lot, there are several subtle differences.

Moyes doesn't get relegated ? they do;
Moyes qualifies for Europe ? they don't;

Moyes does not get sacked ? but, when Niall Quin gives cushion face the boot at the end of the season, you will have a full house.

There are other subtle differences too, like managing a club where the fans have expectation ? that lot crumbled under the pressure of managing clubs "just happy to be here".

I`ll be surprised if Moyes doesn't start next season at Villa Park or the SoL and the people clamouring for cavalry charge football may well get their wish, a gibberish gushing Ian Holloway type to embarrass us every week.

Only when we are embrolled in a real relegation fight ? instead of just claiming we are ? will they realise how good a job Moyes has done.

I`m guessing when that Happens, the "Moyes Out Brigade" (to use their term) will be harder to find than all those who tried to browbeat us into going to Kirkby.

"Money doesnt matter"... Give me strength.

James Martin
18   Posted 05/04/2011 at 10:21:56

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Yeah, let's have the Holloway and De Matteo model, the one that leaves you languishing at the foot of the Premier League... but hey, I'd trade that if it got us a few more plaudits of the pundits for being good to watch, losing every game 3-2.

The claim that he only buys centre halves is ridiculous. So he didn't buy Arteta, Pienaar, Saha and Baines? Some of the most skillful players to ply their trade for Everton in the Premier League? Just because he's pitched in a few utility men now and then to cover up injury crises does not mean he has a habit of playing centre-halves all over the pitch. As if a Van Gaal is ever going to manage us, and is Moyes really as bad as Chris Coleman, Allardyce, Southgate and Strachan?

Even Chelsea and Man City and Liverpool are more defensively minded and cautious than us. Old Dalglish has had them playing 5 at the back, cleverly twisted by the media into 3-5-2. All three of these teams also tend to play 2 holding midfield players. That leaves only Tottenham, Arsenal and Manchester United who are ahead of us in the league and play a more attacking brand.

Eugene Ruane
19   Posted 05/04/2011 at 10:15:58

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I have a wish.

I wish IMWT posters could come up with a better argument than 'be careful what you wish for' (twice on this thread alone).

In my view it's lazy, piss-weak and could be easily countered in EVERY case with 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'

(nb: I really DO wish that and was not in the least bit careful about wishing it).
Lynn Thorne
20   Posted 05/04/2011 at 11:52:30

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If people get their wish and Moyes goes, I am almost certain we will lose several of our better players. It's all very well saying we could buy other ones to fill the gap but I would bet my house that very little of the money from sale of players would go to rebuild the team. We would only be able to get Championship players that no one else wants and that's where we would end up.

Dave Wilson
21   Posted 05/04/2011 at 12:02:36

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"Nothing ventured, nothing gained" Lol

You`re not a bookie by any chance, are you, Eugene?
Iain Fenwick
22   Posted 05/04/2011 at 12:15:56

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To start with, I looked back and couldn't find it but someone mentioned Harry Redknapp... IMO, if you want an absolute sure way of going out of business, then hire Redknapp!! One of the most over-rated managers in the history of English football.

He has spent more money over the years then any other manager including those at Chelsea and City. He has barely had any success and in this new exciting age of Tottenham, they are only 9 points ahead of us after 30 games and we are having a nightmare season on field and behind closed doors.

Whilst Moyes may not be the most exciting tactician, he can only work with what he has and BK has consistently failed to provide the funds necessary for him to do anything about it.

I do not believe for a second that any true Evertonian would walk away from Goodison at the end of a relegation season saying "oh well, at least we tried to play attacking Football". That is nonsense... we have been lucky that a manager like Moyes has stayed around for as long as he has; if it were not for his ability to garner a real team spirit then: 1) we would not have had the success we have had; and 2) we would not have Arteta, Cahill, Jags etc all on long term deals ? they would all be off making loads more money somewhere else.

The problem we have is that we have been sucked in by BK and his lies. The fact that we have done so well all things considered, has merely granted BK a stay of execution. Only now are we actually opening our eyes and seeing what a mess we are in.

BK is a crook, it is his fault we are in this position and only he can put it right. Personally, I am not holding my breath, I don't trust the man and feel he is no better than Gillett and Hicks. The only difference is that he hasn't got their bank balance!

Andy Crooks
23   Posted 05/04/2011 at 12:57:41

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In my view, David Moyes is better than the managers you mention. It seems to me though, that he is part of a dying breed... ie, the Sergeant Major type boss. Ferguson and those who played under him are similar. It works for Ferguson because of his record and power.

This is not a criticism of David Moyes, in fact, I think it is a sad reflection of how powerful players have become. I look back with some nostalgia on the days of Harry Catterick when the boss ruled.

Everton's current situation, injury crisis, lack of funds etc is what brings out the best in Moyes, he is the man to have when the chips are down. I have criticised David Moyes and would prefer to have a new coach in the summer but that does not make me blind to his qualities. Actually, I believe that he could save any of the bottom four in the table. He has got us out of a dire situation but I believe he was partly to blame for putting us into it.

Marcus Kendall
24   Posted 05/04/2011 at 13:20:18

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The only two managers who are realistically available and who I'd take over Moyes are Gus Poyet and Paul Lambert. Some of the other suggestions leave me scratching my head!

Martin Jol? Why? What has he ever achieved? Tottenham fans couldn't wait to see the back of him, he was hardly a success in Germany or with Ajax in Holland.

And as for Sven! playing better football under Sven? You must be joking! He's as cautious as Moyes!
Sean McCarthy
25   Posted 05/04/2011 at 13:57:48

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Stephen at #11 ? On what basis do you mention Sven?? A bluffer of unprecedented proportions. He shouldn't ever be allowed next to near the place...

One bluffer in BK is more than enough for anyone to have to put up with!!

Gavin Ramejkis
26   Posted 05/04/2011 at 14:15:52

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Lynne #20, as cynical as it sounds, we are going to lose players, whether Moyes stays or not. It's called the Billy Bullshitter business model... did Moyes get a single penny of the Pienaar money to spend? Did he get any of the Yakubu loan fee or wage savings? Did he get any of the wage savings from Vaughan?
Michael Kenrick
27   Posted 05/04/2011 at 14:00:35

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Spot on with the Age thing, Rob Keys. It seems totally unnecessary to me to relate how long you have been an Evertonian in an apparent effort to inflate the value and importance of your opinion. If that opinion is worth hearing, what has your age got to do with it?

The whole thing stinks of... Ageism!!!
Eugene Ruane
28   Posted 05/04/2011 at 13:50:34

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Lynn Thorne, you say..

"If people get their wish and Moyes goes. I am almost certain we will lose several of our better players".

And I am ABSOLUTELY certain that if he stays, we will have another season (or more seasons) of dull, turgid, safety-first, uninspiring, same-old-same-old crap, with an entertainment rating of minus zilch.

Now I understand that for Evertonians of a certain age, the idea of football as entertainment might sound strange, but that IS what the game is supposed to provide.

Does this make me a dreamer?

Totally 'unrealistic'?

No it doesn't, I have NO doubt that whoever is in charge of the team, as long as finances are the way they are and Kenwright is 'in charge', we WON'T be winning trophies.

But it is imo total nonsense to suggest there's nobody out there who could achieve our 'almost certainly won't get relegated' level, while providing a few thrills along the way (and for me, the occasional thrill would be a MASSIVE improvement).

Plus, whether Moyes stays or goes, if fat-head needs to sell players to keep afloat, they WILL be sold (or maybe you thought Rooney, Lescott and Pienaar were some of our shittier players?).

Dave Wilson - no I am not a bookie, but something tells me you might be a shower-curtain ring salesman? (and who the fuck is Lol?)
Jamie Crowley
29   Posted 05/04/2011 at 15:35:23

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Michael and Rob -

I've been a red-headed, adopted, American Everton fan for 5 years now.

I appreciate your sentiments because some on here would have me believe at times I'm not overly welcome.

Or have warts or some such thing....
Brian Waring
30   Posted 05/04/2011 at 15:58:51

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Iain (#22) I'm not a big Redknapp fan,
but come on, they may only be 9pts ahead of us with a game in hand, and better GD, but they are where we could only dream of, qaurter finals of the champions league against Real Madrid, after knocking AC Milan out, and knocking out reigning champions Inter Milan.
Michael Kenrick
31   Posted 05/04/2011 at 16:21:44

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James Flynn
32   Posted 05/04/2011 at 16:44:48

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Jamie (29) - Or because you're a Red-Sox fan whose ownership just purchased LFC? Ha!
Jamie Crowley
33   Posted 05/04/2011 at 21:33:29

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JF ? I actually just literally laughed out loud... that LOL thingy.

Let's just hope Everton play slightly better than my 0-3 Sox are at present....

MK ? no red hair literally and in an honest moment thankfully ? no disrespect to those redheads out there.

My Irish roots clearly had some Spaniard journeying up to the Island and taking a liking to an Irish maiden. Dark are we Crowleys....
Kenn Crawford
34   Posted 05/04/2011 at 21:29:06

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Rob & Michael, it is not ageism, it was stating a fact and NO, I don't think I am a better Evertonian than anyone else, no matter how long they have supported the blues. They have the same rights as anyone to state their opinion which is all I was doing. :)
James Flynn
35   Posted 05/04/2011 at 22:14:06

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Jamie (33) - See, yet another good reason the Spanish Armada sunk off the coast of the Ireland; the Crowleys of Boston!! Who simultaneously root for MLB's and EPL's Red Shite.

Quintessentially Irish. Or as Freud explained us, "The only race impervious to psycho-analysis".

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