I've just read that Moyes is going to give Magaye Gueye more chances to "demonstrate his potential", and that, apparently, his lack of first-team appearances thus far is due to his development being "hampered by injuries".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Gueye been sitting on the bench for almost 3/4 of the season now due to our beloved manager always opting for a defensive line-up and/or square-peg-in-round-hole formation?
While I have the utmost respect for Moyes when it comes to his dedication and honesty, sometimes I wonder if he actually knows what the strengths of his players are and, more importantly, whether he has the balls to play to those strengths.
I'm sure there will be others here who disagree, but think back to how long it took for Coleman to be installed at right mid, for Arteta to be moved from right mid to centre mid, for Jagielka to displace Yobo at centre mid, etc, and, conversely, why it is that Heitinga and Billy continue to play in positions which they've underperformed in for the majority of the times they've been there.
PS: I know this is an oft-repeated topic, but I feel it's one that continues to be relevant simply because Moyes continues to persist with his "square pegs, round holes" mentality. If this achieves nothing other than contribute to a growing chorus of calls for Moyes to be more adventurous with his tactics (to which I think he actually responds), then it may be worthwhile.
Ok, rant over.
Rob Teo, Posted 05/04/2011 at 05:49:14
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1 Posted 05/04/2011 at 13:53:40
The lad is now the most used and most experienced sub along with Vellios on the bench.
Square pegs... feck off. He wouldn't get a sniff otherwise but for the injuries.
Another, 20-minute induction and now he is the wonder kid that should have been playing for the whole season. Just wait until he has a stinker and then everyone will be calling him a dud and a waste of money again by Moyes etc etc.
2 Posted 05/04/2011 at 14:07:07
3 Posted 05/04/2011 at 14:15:53
4 Posted 05/04/2011 at 14:23:32
5 Posted 05/04/2011 at 14:58:38
- He played in all the reserves games until November (except one, when he was away on international duty, playing for the French Under-21s);
- He was missing from the Reserves when they restarted in February after their astounding three-month winter break (Oh... something about bad weather?)
- He didn't reapear for them untill mid-March.
- He was absent from the subs bench for all senior games in February until mid-March. So I think it is safe to conclude that he was out injured for that last period ? about six weeks. The odd thing is he started missing the bench in November and December, after being there for every previous game. I know those French blokes don't much like our cold weather, when they can start to look just a tad lazy... or are we not allowed to say that any more!?!
It just blows my mind that a reasonably good prospect like him spends over half the season primarily on the bench. And only gets a game when forced by injury. When he plays quite well. Reason #728 why Moyes drives me mad!
6 Posted 05/04/2011 at 15:23:25
7 Posted 05/04/2011 at 15:26:39
Tony J WIlliams: I'm not saying Gueye is the wonder kid saviour on account of a 20-minute performance. I am, however, saying he should have been given more playing time to develop his potential based on the positive reports of his performances in pre-season and the reserves (which add up to more than 20 minutes). More so when we consider that left-mid has consistently been a problem since Pienaar left (hey, guess what? Gueye can play there!) and that Heitinga and Billy have both stunk when they've played in midfield.
I mean, if doing well in the reserves and in pre-season doesn't give you a shot in the first team ? especially when those ahead of you in the queue are playing badly ? why bother having a manager? We may as well use a computer to generate a line-up each week based on reputation, seniority and wages. Why worry about that elusive thing most managers yearn for in a player: good form?
8 Posted 05/04/2011 at 15:44:26
I really liked the look of this kid Saturday. He showed real promise and a couple of his crosses / corners curled in just beautifully.
He'll follow the Coleman road and be starting soon on a regular basis. He'll also allow us to off-load Bily and bring in much needed cash. And if I'm wrong.... won't be the first time.
I think his future is bright ? assuming DM will give him a genuine chance to shine.
9 Posted 05/04/2011 at 15:50:29
Michael, how is he a reasonably good prospect? We haven't seen anything of him more then the pre-season, where he didin't stand out and a cup game where he stank.
10 Posted 05/04/2011 at 15:54:32
What's a kid have to do for someone to be enthusiastic about his start and subsequent future? No one in their right mind would put a crown on his head and dub him savior. But surely you were impressed with his showing on Saturday?
11 Posted 05/04/2011 at 15:40:02
This is all over the shop mate.
Jagielka was a championship utility man when he played for Warnock - played evey position for him - but after having a look Moyes decided he was a center back, a decision which transformed him from a championship player to an international.
Arteta was voted player of the year by the Evertonians themselves on more than one occasion when he played out wide - many would like to see him back there.
And Coleman served a shorter apprenticship than 99.9% of any player playing in the Prem - it could in fact be argued he still isnt ready.
Hietinga had the center back birth, but lost it through poor - sometimes gutless - performances, he`s only playing at all because we are so short.
Chris is right, square pegs in round holes is a very tired criticism, usually aimed by people who merely differ on team selection to the manager. Gueye is getting a shot, not because he`s earned it but because we are desperate and until we know a bit more about him the jury is still out.
Sorry you probably lost any support you might have had by claiming Yobo played centre Mid
12 Posted 05/04/2011 at 16:05:06
These reports about Gueye doing well in the reserves, where did you read them ?
13 Posted 05/04/2011 at 16:03:26
Not sure if you are claiming Yobo never played centre mid field. He did play some games as defensive/ centre midfield, a position he has apparently played for Nigeria on occasions. He was, however, woefull relying on hoofball to an extent that makes Jags look like Beckenbauer.
14 Posted 05/04/2011 at 16:15:03
not suggesting that at all, I remember him playing a couple of games there when Stubbs and Weir played for us.but you can count them on one hand. and it was usually when we we struggling with injuries, to say he was displaced as CM is like saying Hibbert was displaced at CH
15 Posted 05/04/2011 at 16:25:53
In his first senior game, on as a sub, Gueye set up a goal... but he stunk the place out Brentford.
In his third senior game, on as a sub, Gueye set up a goal... but he stunk the place out Brentford.
In his fourth senior game, on as a sub, Gueye set up a goal (not given)... but he stunk the place out Brentford.
What are we to conclude from this? Well, he stunk the place out Brentford. That's all I got, sorry.
16 Posted 05/04/2011 at 16:31:29
Now if only he was a local load...
17 Posted 05/04/2011 at 19:17:55
I agree Rob, many were calling for Coleman well before he got a chance. Moyes is only using him now, because he has to. I still have nightmares now at playing West Ham (bottom of the league) with no strikers in the starting 11.
18 Posted 05/04/2011 at 19:21:50
And we do know? We watch no more than 14 of them play for an hour and a half every weekend, he sees every last one of them every day in practice.
I'm not defending Moyes's decisions. Maybe they have been the wrong decisions but I'm in no position to criticize.
19 Posted 05/04/2011 at 19:33:22
He could be said to be an "unknown quantity" but isn't that something Moyes could have used our favour?After all he would be (and still is) not very well known to opposition players. Something that could be used to our advantage.
Pat #18 I am sure Moyes knows his players ? but if we were to follow your "I'm in no position to criticize" mantra then that would end virtually all discussion on a whole host of topics, eg, I am sure the Defence Minister knows exactly what the defence budget is, more than the average person ? so should nobody question how the money is spent?
Moyes is fairly well paid for the job that he does and as we still appear to have freedom of speech I am perfectly entitled to voice my opinion. I will praise David Moyes when I think he deserves it ? I will be critical when I think he warrants that.
In my opinion, David Moyes is too cautious in his tactics. And as regards giving young players an opportunity, I would say that there have other Everton managers (even less celebrated ones) who gave young players more opportunities than Moyes has done. If he had to choose between a half-fit Tim Cahill and Gueye I reckon he would be more inclined to choose Cahill.
20 Posted 05/04/2011 at 22:08:45
21 Posted 05/04/2011 at 23:55:36
22 Posted 06/04/2011 at 00:02:18
23 Posted 06/04/2011 at 01:14:29
24 Posted 06/04/2011 at 02:04:29
25 Posted 06/04/2011 at 09:48:24
I'd much rather see players given a chance than rotting on a bench while others are given game time and stinking the place out, football is about winning not standing still or this dreary percentage shite hoping to snatch a victory and not conceding.
26 Posted 06/04/2011 at 09:43:55
Gueye has shown glimpses of promise in a few short appearances but will need a run of 20 games before we can really decide if he has what it takes to play in the Premier League.
Moyes not giving him more playing time, even from the bench, in a team crying out for some midfield drive and pace, is down to one or two things.
One: he has seen enough in training to tell him the player is not good enough; or Two: he feels he is not ready and being inexperienced would only add to the teams problems.
Given that Bily offers something good once in fifteen games and imo is never going to make a player at Everton, now could be a perfect time to see what the French kid can offer us.
There does seem to be a bandwagon rolling which is a little unfair given he only cost a million pounds and maybe expectations are getting a little bit to high.
It's always good having prospects and, the way the finances are, there cannot be enough. They may not all come good but it shows a way forward imo.
27 Posted 06/04/2011 at 10:07:57
Only a complete idiot or somebody who doesnt understand the game would have a squad full of specialists in a squad the size of ours, thankfully Moyes is not that idiot.
We don't have a striker now Saha is out and we don't have a winger, so on limited funds (zilch) Moyes has assembled a group of players that can and will step into a role that isn't their favoured one.
It's a policy that has seen us finish above every team that isn't super rich, season after season after season.
Only the super rich clubs can afford to fill every position and have cover.
I`m not sure which part of that is difficult to understand.
28 Posted 06/04/2011 at 12:14:00
Dave if you are going to defend Moyes then defend him but don't try to defend mistakes you point out yourself in the same post. Bily isn't a winger, Moyes bought him with the intention of playing him on the wing. In Beckford's recent interview he intimated he wasn't looking forward to being played as a lone striker, oddly enough that was also blatantly obvious if anyone had scouted him as he's never played as a lone striker before he came to Everton. Playing players to their strengths and not the manager's ideas isn't rocket science.
29 Posted 06/04/2011 at 12:41:19
Only an idiot would buy Beattie and play no wingers. Only an idiot would buy AJ and play long balls into the corner for him to chase. Only an idiot would but Davies and play him in central midfield. Only an idiot would turn down £15m for jags and let Yobo go for free. Only an idiot would not flog Pienaar 2 years ago.
Dave, you're right, Moyes is not the idiot who fills our squad with specialist players. He is the idiot who, when he buys specialist players, either does not play them or plays them out position or, for strikers, does not play to their strengths.
30 Posted 06/04/2011 at 12:43:31
It is neither my mistake nor Moyes`s, it is merely my opinion.
Unlike you and many others on here, I know the difference.
31 Posted 06/04/2011 at 12:48:09
When Beatie was signed, Arteta was playing out wide ? probably as well as anyone in the country.
AJ has proved not good enough, Moyes gambled on him, found he wasn't good enough, but still made 2.5 million quid profit on him. How many has he scored since he left?
Hughes, Coleman, Toshack and Hodgson, two Spurs managers played Davies in Midfield too.
and if we sold Pienaar two years ago how long do you think he`d have played for us?
Opinions Peter. You or Gavin thinking Moyes got it wrong doesn't make it so.
Nor does it make the people who refute your claims automatically wrong.
32 Posted 06/04/2011 at 13:32:41
Gueye has been promised more game time by Moyes, and I feel that he will blossom into something we need at this point in time. Vellios also got some game time, but it might take longer for him than Gueye. All-in-all, I feel confident that these two possess qualities we need now and after this "summer sale" is over.
I didn't think he would dare to use them both so soon, but I am seeing signs of the old Moyes coming back and that just makes me look bright on things again! May it continue!! Lets cheer on this team to Europe for the remaining games!
33 Posted 06/04/2011 at 13:36:07
34 Posted 06/04/2011 at 13:48:08
Yobo hasn't gone anywhere on a free, he is on loan.
Why would we flog Pienaar two years ago?
35 Posted 06/04/2011 at 13:52:58
Dave, granted, as you think people who would play specialists is stupid, I think Moyes is stupid for buying Beattie without wingers. As it happens, yes, Arteta was playing well... but not a winger, and I also thought Beattie was a poor player. But why on earth get these people in, if you aren't going to play to their strengths???
Moyes has lots of good qualities but he drives me crazy for many decisions he makes and it's not all to do with "we have no money!"
36 Posted 06/04/2011 at 13:54:20
Moyes's caution in overdrive. He never even got the typical meaningless 5 mins at the end of a game. Of course he is now "inexperienced" when it comes top the Premier League.
37 Posted 06/04/2011 at 13:50:15
38 Posted 06/04/2011 at 14:14:41
Am I reading you right? You`d be happy with a manager who would buy only specialists even given the size of our playing pool? You wouldnt think him and idiot? You really are desperate to get rid of Moyes.
And please don't get all insulty as usual when when somebody doesn't agree with what you say. It really doesn't strengthen your case
I don't have a problem with opinions, just inaccuracies, feel very free to point out any I may have posted and I will withdraw them.
39 Posted 06/04/2011 at 14:48:08
Michael, I know you don't like Moyes, but stop turning every article, issue into another Moyes bashfest. Some of us quite like him!
40 Posted 06/04/2011 at 19:21:43
41 Posted 06/04/2011 at 20:57:54
You turn my pointing out that Moyes plays players out of position into that I want him to buy a squad of specialists ? please point out EXACTLY where I said that as I'm confused at your vague response or insinuation and also that I'm desperate to get rid of Moyes... Again, Dave, with your ability to read things that haven't been said, point out EXACTLY where I've said that? I won't bother holding my breath.
42 Posted 07/04/2011 at 06:22:29
43 Posted 07/04/2011 at 07:12:48
I said any who assembled a squad full of only specialists would have to be a complete idiot or didn't understand that game. Now you may think you are gaining support by twisting that into me saying "anybody who disagrees with Moyes is an idiot" but you ain't; people can see for themselves.
If I ever said that, I wouldn't have to go far to be chinned. Thankfully I didnt, anybody can scroll back and see you made it up.
The only person to use the term "idiotic" about another poster on this thread is you.
In the OP, Rob claimed it took Moyes a long time to move Arteta to the right. I pointed out he`d already played their very successfully for seasons. You for some truely bizzare reason see this as double standard... WTF?
You even go on to say I portrayed it as a "master stroke"... no I didnt, you made it up.
I didnt say "you want a team full of specialists" ? you made that up too ? I ASKED if I was reading you right.
I`ll admit it was wrong of me too assume you wanted to get rid of Moyes... It was silly of me to draw that conclusion based merely on the fact that you never seem to miss an opportunity to bash him. I withdraw the allegation and look forward to your contuinued support for our manager.
44 Posted 07/04/2011 at 07:49:28
Given your dislike for playing people out of position and the fact that you think he should be partnered... who did you have in mind?
45 Posted 07/04/2011 at 12:18:29
Then I have visions of him rooting around his dads shed finding a mallet and coming back and pummelling the fucking square peg untill it is wedged firmly in that round hole.
46 Posted 07/04/2011 at 13:13:41
Fingers crossed this also means Bily plays in the middle more as often Moyes's best decisions are forced on him!
47 Posted 07/04/2011 at 14:06:21
The fact Moyes plays people out of position doesn't necessarily mean that they enjoy doing it or that they are any good there. Yes, we have players who can and will play in positions that are not their own.
So what? Having versatile players doesn't make them good. Moyes continually plays people out of postion. Even when we have a fully fit squad to pick from.
Highlighted by the year after year use of Osman as a right sided midfielder and his insistence on playing Bily wide left.
Moyes also favours the hard working, versatile player over the creative type. This will probably never change either.
Also in reference to Davies, I never understood that. When he finally got moved out to the right hand side and hit a bit of form, we offloaded him. Similar to the Yak this season ? he was quality in the derby and got the Stoke winner... then shipped off again.
People against this point please don't mention the West Ham game. This was after he had been benched for a few games in favour of Saha, who was garbage at the time. Plus he has never been the impact off-the-bench type of forward.
At the end of the day, it comes down to favourites and people who will work hard over footballing ability. I think it always will with Moyes; he's just that type of coach.
48 Posted 07/04/2011 at 15:05:29
Davies was always on the right, he just kept on floating into the middle.
Osman is used on the right because he is not good enough for a start in the middle but better than what we have on the right, ie nothing until Coleman... who was brought in as a right back so the square peg, round hole theory is ballsed up on that one because he is a better winger than defender.
Moyes "favours the hard working, versatile player over the creative type"... Yeah, Pienaar, Arteta, Baines, Saha and Fellaini, good job they are just versatile and not quality or creative.
49 Posted 07/04/2011 at 16:44:21
Posting number 27 (or is this a different Dave Wilson???): and I quote "Only a complete idiot or somebody who doesnt understand the game would have a squad full of specialists in a squad the size of ours, thankfully Moyes is not that idiot." You claim not using the word idiot yet forgot you used it???
Posting Number 11 - and I quote (again, is this a different Dave Wilson???): "Arteta was voted player of the year by the Evertonians themselves on more than one occasion when he played out wide".
Posting Number 38 (again, the same Dave Wilson???), and I quote: "You`d be happy with a manager who would buy only specialists even given the size of our playing pool."
Now, Dave, you claim not to have said these yet in seconds I can show you where and when; care to explain those in relation to your posting number 43?
As far as playing Beckford alongside another striker, care to share how long it took Moyes to play Beckford alongside Saha? Yes, we all know Saha is out until the end of the season and he has no-one else in the squad who is an out-and-out striker beyond Vellios and possibly Gueye... that would be a gamble I can't see Moyes taking now but, given the state Beckford was in after the Villa game, it is worrying that playing him as a lone striker could also put him out for the rest of the season too ? and then who would you play, Dave?
Your claims of my constant bashing of Moyes is your own twisted perspective; mine is that when he earns plaudits I'll give them but, when I'm not happy as a paying supporter, I'll be fucked if I take heed of you and keep quiet.
50 Posted 07/04/2011 at 16:51:55
The worst thing was that Moyes didn't even justify it or provide an explanation. Saha was tripe in the games after that, when he was strangely an automatic first choice. Resulting in the West Ham farce of no strikers playing and 3 on the bench... because Moyes didn't know what to do.
The main point with Davies was he was starting to come good and we shipped him out. Strange decision.
Saha? Creative? Except for the Blackpool game; they defend worse than some Sunday league teams btw. He has been awful for over 12 months and I still can't believe we turned down £8mil from Besiktas.
Fellaini is not creative either. His best position is in front of the back 4. Don't get me wrong, he would be one of the first names on the team sheet. I just don't think you can call him 'creative' in comparison to Baines, Arteta etc.
A few years back we were subjected to Hibbert RB Osman RM Neville and Carsley CM... to imply that we didn't have better quality than them available is ludicrous. I remember at the time questioning Moyes's starting XI on an almost weekly basis as it made no sense.
He has been fantastic for this club; hats off to him. I now know longer have to sit through May worrying about the dreaded 'R' word.
The problem is we are now moving away from that and trying to challenge at the top end of the table.
We will never do this unless Moyes adapts and changes. He is too stuck in his ways; even when we have a fully fit squad. Also when we do have a fully fit squad; rare I know but it has happened. He doesn't have a clue what his best XI is. We come into every season without him knowing what to do with regards to his best team.
51 Posted 07/04/2011 at 17:10:15
"A few years back we were subjected to Hibbert RB, Osman RM, Neville and Carsley CM" ? was that the same team that qualified again for Europe?
Davies coming good? I must have missed those games. How is he faring at Fulham?
"We will never do this unless Moyes adapts and changes." Or maybe if he gets the money to buy these flair players without having to sell one of the better ones to fund it. One step forward; one step backwards. You stand still, you go backwards in this league
52 Posted 07/04/2011 at 17:18:43
I do not claim I didn't use the word 'idiot' when describing anyone who assembles a squad full of specialists ?you made that up; in fact I REITERATED IT on post 43 - scroll back and look. How the fuck do come to the conclusion I forgot??
Nor did I claim I didn't say Arteta was played at right wing ? you made that up AGAIN ? I also REITERATED that post 43 too ? scroll back again and check... although I still think your claim that this is a double standard is bizzare.
And I didn't claim you wanted a team of specialist... like I said, I ASKED you if you do, scroll back again, go to post 38 ? the clue is in the question mark!!!
As for you not constantly Moyes bashing, don't make me laugh, anyone who logs on here regularly knows you do ? have the courage of your convictions man, some people may not agree with you but they will respect you.
Sorry Gavin, its clear you either won't or can't understand the posts with which you are arguing and, for that reason, I`m out.
53 Posted 07/04/2011 at 19:13:56
The point is we should be doing better than we are; regardless of the money situation.
We got into Europe in spite of them players not because of them.
Yes, granted we are a few players short but how can you excuse the start of the season? We still had Piennar and a squad capable of winning games.
Yakubu was hitting form in terms of performance wise; goals could have followed given the chance. Comparing him to Victor? Really? He has a goal to game ratio of about 1 in 12. Saha had done nothing to warrant a place, the Yak had. Backs up my original point about favourites.
Also if it came down to it, to move the team forward; Rodwell would be the one to go. His progress has stalled badly, I really don't think he will be the 'midfield general' the media thought he would be.
54 Posted 07/04/2011 at 22:49:26
55 Posted 08/04/2011 at 10:22:56
In true Duncan Bannatyne style, "And because of that, I'm out"
56 Posted 09/04/2011 at 10:36:58
This 'utility player' tag only comes about when there are lots of injuries. Very few players will step in and bounce from position to position and perform well enough to keep there place.
Despite the lack of funds the objective at any club is to improve and move forward; we have not done that this season so it should be obvious that players are needed.
Moyes has himself brought in good quality without breaking the bank and sometimes a gamble when you have the full close season to watch the players is needed.
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