For every Arteta and Cahill ? has there really been a Per Krøldrup?
More than once on this site I?ve seen a contribution criticising Moyes?s transfer record with something akin to "for every Cahill there?s a Per Krøldrup", implying that Moyes has got nearly as much wrong as he?s got right in the transfer market in his time at Everton. I decided (on a quiet work day!) to look at all the incoming transfers (and subsequent sales) since Moyes arrived at the club to assess whether this view is true.
The list as I see it is at the bottom of the page (taken from the official website). The number next to the player is the amount they cost in millions. In brackets are the fees for those players who were subsequently sold.
Here are the facts: Moyes has bought a total of 43 players since he arrived (excluding loan signings). I?ve worked out an approximate spend of £124 million on these players (approximate because a few fees were undisclosed e.g Saha and I?ve had to guess the amount). Total sales of these players subsequently sold equates to approximately £55 million.
So Moyes has obviously been a net spender since he arrived ? to the tune of nearly £70 million. Over 10 years this equals an average net spend of £7 million per year. I?ve not counted the Rooney sale because he was already at the club when Moyes came and I?m not giving Moyes the credit for that sale, whereas the sale of Lescott at a £14 million profit is obviously a feather in his cap.
A quick eyeball of this list and I think Moyes has got quite a lot more right than he?s got wrong ? which is perhaps the most a manager can really be expected to achieve in the transfer market. Whether you think £7 million a year over 10 years has got the club as far as it should from a pretty low starting point (i.e relegation material) is a matter of opinion. I think he stands up against just about everyone.
Marouane Fellaini 15 Ayegbeni Yakubu 11.25 Diniyar Bilyaletdinov 10 Andrew Johnson 8.6 (10.5) John Heitinga 7 Leighton Baines 6 James Beattie 6 (4.5) Joseph Yobo 5 Joleon Lescott 5 (19) Per Krøldrup 5 (3.5) Sylvain Distin 4.5 Phil Jagielka 4 Simon Davies 4 (2.5) Phil Neville 3.5 Richard Wright 3.5 (0) Tim Cahill 2.5 Tim Howard 2.5 Nuno Valente 2.2 (0) Steven Pienaar 2.05 Mikel Arteta 2 Andy Van der Meyde 2 (0) Louis Saha 1.5 James McFadden 1.25 (6) Rodrigo 1.25 (0) Apostolos Vellios 1 Joao Silva 1 Magaye Gueye 1 Lukas Jutkiewicz 1 (1) Kevin Kilbane 1 (.5) Dan Gosling 1 (0) Marcus Bent 0.5 (2) Carlo Nash 0.5 Nigel Martyn 0.5 (0) Scott Spencer 0.5 John Ruddy 0.25 Seamus Coleman 0.1 Aristote Nsiala 0 Jan Mucha 0 Jermaine Beckford 0 Shkodran Mustafi 0 Lucas Neill 0 (1.5) Anderson de Silva 0 (1.5) Alan Stubbs 0 (0)
Colin O'Keeffe, Posted 07/04/2011 at 12:41:00
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1 Posted 07/04/2011 at 14:45:35
2 Posted 07/04/2011 at 14:46:57
Moyes can obviously spot a good player but the problems arise regarding what he does with them once they're in, especially the attacking players.
Shame the Van der Meyde episode seems to have put him off signing "flair" players though, however much they cost.
3 Posted 07/04/2011 at 14:41:41
Moyes is on average a good buyer and I don't think that a lot of people will disagree with that. The thing is that he seems to be great at buying undiscovered gems and mediocre at big shots.
4 Posted 07/04/2011 at 14:55:44
5 Posted 07/04/2011 at 15:00:48
6 Posted 07/04/2011 at 15:31:54
7 Posted 07/04/2011 at 15:39:17
8 Posted 07/04/2011 at 15:44:06
9 Posted 07/04/2011 at 15:45:09
Also not including Rooney there is ridiculous.... Moyes was the manager of the club when Rooney left!
10 Posted 07/04/2011 at 16:02:29
I don't like this modern trend of undisclosed fees. I like to know what we've paid for players and what people are paying us when we sell them. I know that I've no right to this information as such, but it irks me all the same.
11 Posted 07/04/2011 at 15:56:55
I think you have to include Rooney and Gravesen as well ? especially as we effectively bought Arteta with that money (and never a better swap was made!).
12 Posted 07/04/2011 at 16:28:25
13 Posted 07/04/2011 at 16:08:15
But yeah, if you were weighing up the figures overall he probably has spent perhaps around £5million a year on average. Adds more weight to the argument that he's a good overall operator in the market I suppose.
14 Posted 07/04/2011 at 16:32:14
Not a bad success rate to me that list ? some very good buys in there.
15 Posted 07/04/2011 at 17:00:00
16 Posted 07/04/2011 at 16:57:20
Put it another way: the players that were probably flops were Beattie, Krøldrup, Davies, Wright & Van der Meyde. A loss of £10m. That is more than made up by the profit on Joleon Lescott alone.
17 Posted 07/04/2011 at 17:11:24
What pompous garbage.
18 Posted 07/04/2011 at 17:27:43
19 Posted 07/04/2011 at 17:39:54
20 Posted 07/04/2011 at 17:40:13
21 Posted 07/04/2011 at 17:46:56
If you add in what you'd get if you sold the ones he bought, but still has at the Club you would return a decent profit. At a rough guess:
That's £100m plus we got £24m for Lescott so overall profit is £35m. When you add on Rooney money and what you'd get for Rodwell, Vaughan and Anichebe, that's another £60m for players he has brought through.
The squad he inherited was ageing and almost worthless bar Ferguson, Radzinski and Campbell.
So a player profit (notional of course) of close on £100m and finishes of 4th, 5th twice, 6th, 7th, 8th and only two bottom half finishes is pretty impressive with what he has been given to work with. Not saying it's been perfect, could not have been prettier to watch at times, but 99% of us would have taken it 10 years ago when we usually finished between 13th and 17th every year.
22 Posted 07/04/2011 at 18:46:15
Sadly, it's decided on points gained from winning football matches.
That alone is an indication of Moyes ? nothing else.
I dare say that every Premier League club could portray such a scenario. Buying and selling players is a murky business financially ? and there will always be massive upsides. Look at Liverpool for example ? they've sold Torres for a profit (I would guess £20 million+), but he can't hit a barn door at the moment. Does that make Rafa a genius and Ancelotti a bad manager? Of course not.
It's all about winning football matches, that's the business we are in...
23 Posted 07/04/2011 at 18:53:02
Can you imagine where we would be with even Spurs' spending power? History says there would be more Fellainis than Van der Meydes.
24 Posted 07/04/2011 at 18:30:31
25 Posted 07/04/2011 at 19:16:28
But a player should be judged after a season ? how many of us rated Fellani when he first came?
26 Posted 07/04/2011 at 19:15:04
Moyes has been very decent for us and can't see any ambitious manager wanting to replace him for reasons other than the pay check when we have 0 money to spend.
27 Posted 07/04/2011 at 19:43:51
I know homegrown players are not included, and they will have some sort of value.
I wonder if this is why the Bank continues to allow the club to trade as on the face of it the Report and Accounts do not look great?
28 Posted 07/04/2011 at 19:48:18
For me that's four players:
IMO, if those players were sold and not replaced, we would be fighting relegation.
If you take the combined market value (£60-75m?) of those players and add them into the figures quoted above then you see how shrewd an operator he is in the transfer market.
With a business struggling to generate income, that's invaluable. Moyes creates assets. If the club can find no other way to generate funds to build a ground/redevelop then they should use this talent for all it's worth!
I'm more concerned with what happens on the pitch and that's been mostly dire, even though we may well finish higher than we did last year, with a much depleted squad. But if I were Bill I'd be using that talent for all it's worth.
29 Posted 07/04/2011 at 19:53:08
Beattie (we have already made a loss on him).
I think Moyes is better working with a small squad with a 'backs to the wall' mentality. His transfer record does stand up to scrutiny, and he's done an excellent job with limited resources, but I honestly think if we gave him £100 million to spend we would still be a functional team of no superstars lacking adventure.
30 Posted 07/04/2011 at 20:07:59
Not an apologist for Moyes ? just wanted to weigh up fairly whether he was a good operator in the transfer market for this club, pure and simple. Facts tend to tell the story ? sorry if you find facts pompous!! Whether he's a good tactician or puts out entertaining side... that's something else.
31 Posted 07/04/2011 at 20:19:05
I think we get near to the money back on Heitinga and Bily, whilst a small loss on Yobo isn't too bad given the amount of service out of him.
Beattie is the one and to be fair on the face of it looked a good deal. The hindsight was we could have signed Ashton and Darren Bent for the money.
Moyes/Everton work best when he/we pick up players with something to prove.
32 Posted 07/04/2011 at 20:31:52
33 Posted 07/04/2011 at 20:25:30
To my mind, the Moyes record is interchangeable with all the media friendly deadwood ? Curbishley, Allardyce, Bruce, Southgate, Strachan, Chris Coleman... the list goes on, having got their snouts in the Premier League trough they accomplished absolutely nothing.
Personally, I'm not arsed about his transfer value for money rating ? I'm sick and tired of "centre half" football, eye-bleeding caution and the pure uninspiring misery that surrounds him. I really couldn't give a shit about a billionaire not bankrolling us, contrary to populist theory and despite what Sky and the papers tell you it's always been the same ? haves and have nots.
Moreover, the manager's job remains the same, ie, deal with the circumstances, find good players (not just defenders) and compete.
34 Posted 07/04/2011 at 20:37:17
35 Posted 07/04/2011 at 20:36:15
what point am I missing? Do everton win a trophy for moyes being the best player buyer and seller? Does it get us into europe?
No. I'm not missing a point. I think others are missing the point. Or rather its a pointless discussion. The point being that we're in this business to win football matches and trophies, are we not? Speculating, procrastinating, putting lipstick on a pig (meaning the whole situation), does not make things better.
Are we going to claim next that we have the best pies in the premiership, so we should be happy? That we have a messiah because we have the best team harmony?
Moyes has his plus points. He has his negative points, too. I'm interested in everton moving forward on the pitch. Not the transfer league, not the fair play league, not the pie league...
36 Posted 07/04/2011 at 21:00:51
All very well saying that we haven't won many trophies recently, but let's be honest, hardly any side outside the top 4 have. Those that have won are the ones with the money, who can buy the best players. This is not the 70s and 80s where things were a lot more even and far more clubs had a chance of winning things.
Yes, we'd all love to be winning loads of trophies, but wouldn't fans of all clubs. And only one club can win each trophy which is, far more often than not, the one with the most money.
37 Posted 07/04/2011 at 21:21:09
The questions however remain:
1. Can he buy and manage top quality?
2. If he stays, where can he take us from here or will we just stagnate and die?
3. Wll the board back him with his plan or override him with their plan (If they even have one)?
38 Posted 07/04/2011 at 21:11:27
The only reason we are not there is the job our manager has done in terms of buying and selling players and team harmony etc. Is it good enough for Everton? No ... But changing the manager isn't going to increase our spending power so it's not going to improve our league position.
39 Posted 07/04/2011 at 21:38:01
Put it another way: Over 10 years, Moyes has had £150m to build his own team and yet, still failed to win a trophy.
40 Posted 07/04/2011 at 22:23:28
After all, it's all we wanted when he came in, 'mid-table obscurity' (which we are) was the favourite phrase 10 years ago.... not 'square pegs in round holes'!!
41 Posted 07/04/2011 at 23:27:00
Within that figure he's had to sell important players he didn't want to sell. Plus he had to use rather a lot of that just to sustain us as top half team as Moyes team Mk I was based on well organised but poor Walter Smith acquisitions. Once the team could be called his own, it always finished top half.
I would be prepared to gamble that Spurs, City and Arsenal have all spent far more than us in the last 5 years. The result? One League Cup.
42 Posted 07/04/2011 at 23:43:25
However, it would be churlish to be overly critical of Moyes's performance in the transfer market. I think he's a good manager, maybe a very good manager, but not a great manager, not a winner.
I hoped for great things when he arrived, but he seems to have lost that small degree of boldness that he initially showed signs of. Consequently, I doubt he'll ever move to a bigger job than the one he has & suspect those Manager of the Year awards may well prove to be the high points of his career.
Nontheless, Moyes is by no means the big problem at our club ? that is our inept Board.
43 Posted 08/04/2011 at 00:32:55
That alone is an indication of Moyes ? nothing else.
Sadly delusional Jeremy. There is evidence of a direct correlation between spending and where teams end the season. In fact, the main determinant I believe is not fees, but wages (I suppose you could get round fees by signing loanees the whole time).
But over the past ten years, Everton more than any other club has bucked the trend on league placing to wage bills. The correlation is apparently impressively rigid. Top four wages get top four league placings ? Man City will have upset that in the past couple of years, as there'll be a lag between sudden heavy investment and attaining success.
44 Posted 08/04/2011 at 00:38:00
?In short, the more you pay your players in wages, the higher you will finish; but what you pay for them in transfer fees doesn?t seem to make much difference.?
The evidence is general; and over a long period of time in order to iron out any freak occurrences. And it is pretty straightforward as the opening gambit makes clear...
45 Posted 08/04/2011 at 01:12:24
46 Posted 08/04/2011 at 01:38:45
47 Posted 08/04/2011 at 02:07:36
So not 50-50 success-failure rate more like 85-15 in Moyes favour.
48 Posted 08/04/2011 at 02:11:39
It's not that Colin is producing a 'Transfer Table' to declare that Moyes is a winner, or even a good football manager.
It's to investigate whether those of you that state as fact "for every Cahill there?s a Per Krøldrup" are correct in implying Moyes gets player purchases wrong more consistently than right.
Colin's investigation reveals that is not true, but it probably won't stop the same people that are criticizing this information from continuing to use the same argument.
Colin, I suggest you bookmark this article and every time a Cahill / Krøldrup argument comes up paste the link!
49 Posted 08/04/2011 at 08:39:34
And as for mid-table mediocrity, 4th is not mid table, nor is 5th, 6th or even 7th. Mid-table is 8th-13th and we do not regularly finish in mid table.
50 Posted 08/04/2011 at 09:30:07
I agree, Moyes leaves a lot to be desired tactically. He has won nothing (though he has plenty of company there) and doing well in the transfer market does not make you a good manager. He often uses players in a way that would appear to be contrary to their favoured role and therefore it could possibly be argued that he has created flops of a couple of players who otherwise may have done better.
But the OP isn't arguing against any of that! It is an open-minded look at the facts relating to his transfer record. It was done in response to the comment on Scott's article that "for every Cahill there?s a Per Krøldrup". That is just not true.
Faced with straight forward evidence that proves that Moyes has held his own (not saying he is some kind of magician) in the transfer market, people who clearly don't like Moyes as a manager (no problem with that as such) turn the argument back to winning trophies and tactical ineptitude. Fair points, but not really relevant to this particular post.
Those of us who come on here regularly know which posters are firmly in the anti-Moyes camp and those that are pro-Moyes, but why do we have to try and pigeon-hole everyone into one of those two types. It is possible to dislike Moyes without thinking everything he's ever touched is total crap and it's also possible to think he is in general a decent manager without thinking his shit doesn't smell.
Until we sort out the mess that the club is in and make some changes at the top, I don't see the grass being greener with any other manager who would be willing to take the job.
51 Posted 08/04/2011 at 09:54:10
52 Posted 08/04/2011 at 12:35:26
53 Posted 08/04/2011 at 12:40:17
Make of this what you will, but to me it's a more likely explanation than a highly rated player being brought in, being found to be not good enough in training and never played, then shipped back for almost the same money to a solid career in Italy.
54 Posted 08/04/2011 at 12:49:37
55 Posted 08/04/2011 at 15:29:28
56 Posted 08/04/2011 at 16:59:31
However, I feel you have to include the likes of Rooney and Gravesen as Moyes has benefited with the money from these sales. I've worked out this has made about £4m a season budget for Moyes over his time as manager.
It is difficult to get exact figures as they don't always get released by the club. What about loan signings, surely there is some loan fee we pay? However, arguing about these exact figures is immaterial.
What would be good, is a judgement or even a poll by the readers as to whether each signing has been good or bad. Then total up all signings to give a true indication of whether Moyes gets it right or wrong.
57 Posted 08/04/2011 at 19:22:57
58 Posted 08/04/2011 at 18:58:20
Moyes has made some fine signings but not all of them have "lasted the course" ? I am thinking of the likes of Andy Johnson and Yak. Are these guys bad players?
It seems to me that too many people have this attitude that you are either For Moyes or Against Moyes. That's the two "camps" that Evertonians appear to be divided into. Sorry I don't agree with that, can I suggest a third "Camp"? Namely the "Absolutely Frustrated With Moyes" Camp ? which is the one that I count myself as being in. If only the guy had been a bit more adventurous, then we could have been a position to challenge for a place in European Competition.
Unfortunately I think that it is too late now. Look at how many games we have drawn!! In a recent TV interview, Moyes said that maybe he made a mistake in the summer ? that he should have signed another striker. At times this season we have had 3 strikers on the bench!!! What is the point in signing another ? does he want to have 4 of the 6 outfield subs as strikers?!!
Doing well in the transfer market is only one part of the job of a manager. You have to get the best out of those players. Has Moyes done that?
59 Posted 08/04/2011 at 22:59:06
Samir Nasri £12m
Gareth Bale £7m
Javier Hernandez £6-10m
Joe Hart £1.5m
Seamus Coleman £0.06m
I know Wilshere was free having been home grown, but it's some achievement for Seamus and Davey given the way finance dominates the modern game for Coleman to appear on this list...
60 Posted 08/04/2011 at 23:05:48
I don't think I can think of any managers that haven't bought a lemon including Fergie but they can write a lemon off, Everton can't afford to write off a shite player never mind an expensive one.
61 Posted 08/04/2011 at 23:12:03
62 Posted 09/04/2011 at 09:33:36
63 Posted 09/04/2011 at 09:46:46
My beef with him is the same as some of the posters above: he doesn't get the blend of players correct. Bily is a very talented player, but he is not a winger and he doesn't have pace. The £15M spent on Bily and Heitinga could've been far better spent buying us a Ben Arfa and a Michael Johnson for example.
In that particular case, Moyes made some bad decisions about if and when to let Lescott leave, which screwed up the start of last season, and also left him rushing around at the last minute looking to spend £25M on whatever was available.
Finally, people talk about the Moyes net spend being great, but don't forget we did get massive fees for Rooney and Lescott, neither of which massively weakened the playing staff.
64 Posted 09/04/2011 at 11:47:40
65 Posted 09/04/2011 at 14:07:58
An earlier poster said, look at it this way, Moyes has had £150m and still not won anything. You're missing the point mate. He's arguably had that money but on the drip. Go and ask Real Madrid if they'll sell gel-boy for £150m and we'll play them over 10 years.
BTW, great list. Interesting read.
66 Posted 09/04/2011 at 15:55:18
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