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Everton Managers

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How times have changed. I found a book in work today which mentioned William C Cuff. He took over Everton in 1901 and won the league in the 1914-1915 season. What happened in the intervening period.? Were there demonstrations outside the ground? Did he not have enough money to spend?

Anyway, my point is, where does David Moyes rate? The great Harry Catterick was boss when we were a big club, when the boss was the boss and, frankly, the views of the players mattered not a jot.

Billy Bingham was an old sergeant major type as well. Kendall was there as football began to change and in my view was the best. Catterick number two.

After that, well, I'd have Royle and then a dead heat between Walter Smith and David Moyes. That will annoy some people but, in my view, they are similar men and coaches.
Andy Crooks, Belfast     Posted 08/04/2011 at 18:42:01

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Ian McDowell
1   Posted 08/04/2011 at 21:19:41

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A dead heat between Smith and Moyes? You have got to be joking.
David Thomas
2   Posted 08/04/2011 at 21:14:19

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Andy,

David Moyes has a much better win ratio as Everton manager compared to Walter Smith and has a much higher average league finish than Smith. How are they equal?
Graham Fylde
3   Posted 08/04/2011 at 21:32:26

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Andy
A subject that has been around before on TW and, sad bastard that I am, I have kept some stats from last time. Your post is interesting because you have tried to add some context but the stats on modern-day manager win %'s are:

Kendall 55.47%,
Catterick 55.24%,
Harvey 52.46%,
Moyes 50.04%,
Royle 50.00%,
Bingham 47.87%,
Smith 41.47%,
Walker 27.62%.

Colin Harvey is a man that often gets forgotten!

Jamie Crowley
4   Posted 08/04/2011 at 22:11:22

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Smith is just utter garbage. If you think we play crap now, try watching Rangers.

I'd rather Moyes over Smith any day. In fact, if Smith were brought back, I might find a bridge to jump off.
Andy Crooks
5   Posted 08/04/2011 at 22:27:33

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David, I see them as equal for two reasons:

Firstly, both have been betrayed by their chairman. Smith much more than Moyes, who in my view, has in many ways colluded with his chairman.

Secondly, Walter Smith has won trophies, I will not go over the old ground about SPL v The Premier League.

Walter Smith played with a shite hand at Everton, went to Rangers and won trophies. David Moyes has played a shite hand at Everton and will go to Celtic and win trophies. The similarity between the two men is, to me, uncanny.

Marcus Kendall
6   Posted 08/04/2011 at 22:38:01

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I totally agree, Jamie, Walter Smith is miles more negative than Moyes, plus he was worse than every Everton manager in my lifetime bar Walker.

I also think Royle is overrated by Evertonians, sure we won the cup (but we had a large slice of luck on the way, anyone remember the Newcastle tie when they absolutely battered us?) and his biggest achievement in my eyes was keeping us up initially. He followed up well the next season but the feeling was we still underachieved that season. And his final season was disastrous!
Dick Fearon
7   Posted 08/04/2011 at 22:36:55

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Anyone else remember Ian Buchan? He did not hold the title of manager yet acted as one. Brought from a Scottish university where he specialised in radical new new ideas on physical fitness.

Ian had no previous managerial experience of any kind yet by golly he had the players jumping out of their skin. That year, had the team maintained its pre-Xmas results we might have won the league.

Ian's lack of football nous plus the fact that other managers found ways to counter our non-stop but naive running style that burst our bubble. Sweet memories of a time when things were simpler.

David Thomas
8   Posted 08/04/2011 at 22:55:58

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Andy,

What relevance has what Smith has won at Rangers got to do with his impact at Everton?

I thought your OP was about their management time at Everton? If so, there is no way that Smith and Moyes can be considered equal, the facts are there in black and white to show that they are not.

If you are not basing it solely on their time at Everton, then why have you got Royle ahead of Smith? (Smith has won more trophies than Royle.)
Graham Fylde
9   Posted 08/04/2011 at 23:03:57

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Having never heard of Ian Buchan, I got these much better figures off the fantastic Everton Results website:

1 HOWARD KENDALL 65.7
2 HARRY CATTERICK 59.6
3 COLIN HARVEY 57.4
4 JOE ROYLE 55.1
5 GORDON LEE 54.7
6 DAVID MOYES 54.4
7 BILLY BINGHAM 53.2
8 HOWARD KENDALL 51.2
9 JOHNNY CAREY 50.8
10 CLIFF BRITTON 50.3
11 THEO KELLY 47.1
12 WALTER SMITH 46.4
13 IAN BUCHAN 43.4
14 HOWARD KENDALL 41.7
15 MIKE WALKER 32.9

Andy Crooks
10   Posted 08/04/2011 at 23:16:14

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David, I don't think you would disagree that David Moyes has had much more financial leeway than Walter Smith?

Fair enough, I see what you mean about their time at Everton but can you really not see how alike they are? Either of them could save any of the bottom four in the Premier League but if you were the new billionaire owner of Everton you wouldn't want either of them.

Marcus Kendall
11   Posted 08/04/2011 at 23:32:18

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Andy, at the beginning, Walter Smith was given the money to bring in quality players like Dacourt, Materazzi, Collins, Bakayoko etc yet he still failed to finish above half way. I know you're not Moyes's biggest fan and neither am I but the guy is a different class of manager to Walter Smith. (He's better in the transfer market, he has better long term visions for the club, and he has got us playing better football than Smith ever did.)
Marcus Kendall
12   Posted 08/04/2011 at 23:43:12

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And reading your original comment, Andy, you have Royle ahead of Moyes? Not sure why, Moyes is miles better than Royle who is vastly overrated by Evertonians.
Lee Courtliff
13   Posted 09/04/2011 at 00:03:11

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Marcus Kendall #6 ? We did not get battered by Newcastle. If you remember, Barlow went clean through and hit the bar. Duncan had two good chances and missed them both (but he was still man of the match).

We got battered in the 4th round away to Bristol City/Rovers. They stuffed us out of sight but then Matt Jackson scored a superb goal late on.

Anyway, can you name a team that has won the Cup without a bit of luck along the way? Me neither.

And anyone who thinks Moyes is no better than Smith obviously didn't have a season ticket during the reign of Smith. I did.
Trevor Lynes
14   Posted 09/04/2011 at 07:30:29

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I have watched the Blues since 1948 and the manager who actually built the best footballing side was John Carey but unfortunately the board sacked him and replaced him with Harry Catterick who gradually parted with much of the flair players and brought in more disciplined types. But it was Carey who brought Vernon, Young, Ring and Collins into the team and they played the BEST football I have seen. Catterick inherited a great team and his success was immediate but, as always, decline set in rapidly as the nucleus was allowed to leave.

Unfortunately, this has been the pattern throughout and we have never been astute or intelligent enough to maintain consistency like Liverpool and later Man Utd. We still dine out on scraps and I can only say that I have seen the BEST that we have been able to manage (but only fleetingly). I would not make so-called legends of any of the lot we have had since the Premier League was formed. Even when we had John Moores to foot the bills, we never created a conveyer belt of success!!

Paul Knox
15   Posted 09/04/2011 at 09:37:54

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All this talk about Moyes and Smith, who is better. My view is both are big failures, both given too long as managers. Bring back the days when we awarded failure with the sack.
Derek Thomas
16   Posted 09/04/2011 at 09:09:45

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Trevor, everything is relative, as a mere strippling of 60+ I have castigated the 'younger ones' for having no perspective.

Well, they have nothing to base their opinions on having never seen a 'real' team. Not withstanding the fact that, in (again) real terms, we have, post-WW2, only had 3.9 GREAT teams. IMO, the 87 team was just edged out of the medal position.

1st: '70, (Photo) 2nd: '85; 3rd: '63; 4th: '87. Subjective, I know, but that's how it was from my spec. in the Gwladys St.

So now the boot is on the other foot and I am the young one. I never saw Ring except for maybe the odd game, but all the others I saw enough to know class when I saw it.

Conclusion; what Carey had was a good team. Catterick tuned it up to a title-winning team. Does that make him and them Great? A Legend? You pays your money and takes your chances. But, like a lot of things, 'Great', 'Legend', etc have been debased by inflation and hype.

It would be good to see the draw and loss stats to go with the win ratios.

The old saying used to go (@2pts for a win) win your home games and draw away = win the league; 42 + 21= 63, not many teams got 63 pts and finished 2nd (Leeds??).

Again, IMO, Catterick is the top man. He rebuilt the 63 team. It took him 7 years and he only had a few survivors, and along the way the played some absolute shite.

Kendall Mk I got lucky (Boxing Day and Mike England in waiting in the stands???) and went with it.

Lucky you say?? Yes. Anyone who got a whole season out of those perennial sicknotes ? Gray, Sheedy and Reid ? got Lucky.
Paul Knox
17   Posted 09/04/2011 at 09:48:21

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Harry Catterick's later team/squad was the better team with the midfield made in heaven. The problem was when Alan Ball and his white boots (my schoolboy hero, by the way) thought he was bigger than the club, remember the Charity Shield at Stamford Bridge? And the league was tighter in the 60s, the way the Prem is going this season. The only big difference now as to then is... we are missing!
Gavin Ramejkis
18   Posted 09/04/2011 at 10:30:18

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If the report on GoT is true then Moyes is playing to his strengths again, looking to sign another defender; does he not realise he needs to sign a striker too?
Rory Slingo
19   Posted 09/04/2011 at 10:37:57

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Not to worry, Gavin, we won't be needing that striker now as, according to the Echo, Leon Osman has sussed out teams that park the bus! He'll no doubt be putting this new found knowledge to good use today as he rips Wolves apart. It'll be like a new signing!
Graham Fylde
20   Posted 09/04/2011 at 10:52:03

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Derek #16 - attached link gives you full record of managers, including draws and losses.

http://www.evertonresults.com/managers.htm
Rory Slingo
21   Posted 09/04/2011 at 10:46:49

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Oh, and to get back on topic, I'm hesitant to rate Moyes at the moment as, on one hand, I'm curious to see what he would do with a £100m transfer kitty: If he could afford to buy creative, flair players that were consistent performers and therefore allowed him to be more adventurous with team tactics, would he still coach any creativity out of them or try to make them into utility players? Would he be more aggressive with substitutions with a solid squad on the bench?

And on the other hand, how would Catterick, Kendall or Harvey have managed the last 9 years with the funds Moyes has had? In terms of league positions and net spend, would they have managed any better than Moyes?

I'm only 33 so barely old enough to remember the success of the 80s, let alone the transfer dealings of that era and previous. Perhaps the older Blues among us would care to share some thoughts on that? I imagine they'd have taken us on much better Cup runs even if they couldn't afford to compete in the league, but maybe that's me looking back on them through blue-tinted specs?

As for Walter Smith, no dead heat for me. I'd take Moyes every day of the week.

Rory Slingo
22   Posted 09/04/2011 at 11:24:16

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#14 Trevor,
You do bring up an interesting point. I think generally Moyes has been rather successful in that regard ? aside from having to let Rooney and Lescott go due to transfer request, I believe he has always fought to keep the nucleus of his team together. I'd hesitate to label any of them creative but the 'better' players he has brought in are still here. Those that have left aren't setting the world alight elsewhere. Same goes for the Academy players. We've generally kept the best ones and let go of those who wouldn't get a game in any EPL team.
Paul Foster
23   Posted 09/04/2011 at 18:16:03

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This has to be a wind-up. Does anybody actually remember the football we played in Walter Smith? And how we were on our way out of the Premier League when David Moyes took over?

The man spent a lot of money on a lot of poor players and somehow managed to get them playing football that was even worse than the sum of their parts. It was an attrocious period for the club and it is utterly baffling that you could even compare Smith to Moyes.

Under Smith, Everton finished in the bottom half of the table for three consecutive seasons. Under Moyes, Everton have regularly qualified for or at least challenged for Europe and he has won Manager of the Year 3 times.

Baffling comparison.
John McFarlane
24   Posted 09/04/2011 at 18:22:47

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Dick #7, I'm afraid that your memory is letting you down a little. Ian Buchan was appointed as Cliff Britton's successor in 1956 (recruited from Loughborough University).

Everton's league record from August 18th to December 15th was, played 22, (won 8, drawn 4, lost 10) and they occupied 14th position. Their record from December 25th to April 27th was, played 20 (won 6, drawn 6, lost 8), and they finished the season in 15th position.

Although they enjoyed notable victories over (eventual League Champions) Manchester United, and Arsenal, they spent most of the season in the bottom half of the table, and were never in a position to mount a serious challenge in the league.

Dave Roberts
25   Posted 09/04/2011 at 19:07:02

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Rory Sligo (19)

How did you know? That's exactly what Ossie did! I guess you must be better than Walter Smith.
Jamie Barlow
26   Posted 09/04/2011 at 19:10:26

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Absolute bollocks post. Just another excuse to have another pop at Moyes. Ridiculous.
Brian Waring
27   Posted 10/04/2011 at 09:41:16

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Yes Jamie, just like those ridiculous posts that state Moyes is the best thing since sliced bread.
David Thomas
28   Posted 10/04/2011 at 10:58:20

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Brian,

Which posts are they?
Gavin Ramejkis
29   Posted 10/04/2011 at 11:32:14

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Doubting, anything you post besides your usual "Show me" question?
David Thomas
30   Posted 10/04/2011 at 12:56:03

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Hi Gavin,

Anything you or Brian want to post other than attacking Moyes or Kenwright?
Paul Wharton
31   Posted 10/04/2011 at 15:45:37

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Hi Andy, Will Cuff started managing the combination side in 1894 and took over Secretary duties in 1901.

We won the cup in 1906 as you know, missed out on the double 1905 as in 1986. also a couple of beaten finalists under will.

Quote from Billy Merideth was Will Cuff and Ernest Mangall (Man Utd) were the best managers on a budget.

Will Cuff has the best record in Derby games 16 wins.

Will Cuff also started the Central League in 1911-12.

Mike Allison
32   Posted 10/04/2011 at 16:17:34

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"I'd have Royle and then a dead heat between Walter Smith and David Moyes."

Zero credibility for this I'm afraid Andy. Walter Smith's reign coincides almost exactly with my tenure as a season ticket holder, and what it feels like to be an Evertonian is completely different under Moyes. We play much better football, consistently finish higher up the league, and are respected as a decent/good team by the media and fans of other clubs.

Our disappointment of the last two years is failing to qualify for Europe; under Smith, the thought of Europe never once crossed our minds. Also, it's not as if Smith steadied the ship for a handover to Moyes, it was a team of 30-something defenders that Moyes inherited.

Joe Royle had a good season and a half, playing long ball and defensive counter-attacking football and finishing 6th once. For me, this doesn't compare with years of consistent top half finishes that Moyes has achieved. Obviously Joe won the FA Cup, and Moyes hasn't, but they both reached a final each, and the margins aren't massive. I'd argue if Eric Cantona hadn't jumped into the crowd at Crystal Palace that season then Joe wouldn't have won the FA Cup either.

Michael Kenrick
33   Posted 10/04/2011 at 17:04:22

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"... they both reached a final each, and the margins aren't massive. I'd argue if Eric Cantona hadn't jumped into the crowd at Crystal Palace that season then Joe wouldn't have won the FA Cup either."

Astounding way to devalue that famous victory, to devalue the winning of a trophy ? which is what football is supposed to be about ? and to devalue Joe Royle's fantastic achievements as manager.
Gavin Ramejkis
34   Posted 10/04/2011 at 21:08:58

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Dave, I occasionally save some snippets of wit for you and Dave Wilson too, just so you don't feel left out and neglected.
Mike Allison
35   Posted 12/04/2011 at 11:27:26

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I knew I'd get accused of that, and I was actively trying to avoid it. What I'm trying to do is show that Moyes losing to an expensively assembled Chelsea team that did the double in 2009 is not the great failure that some deem it to be. If Joe Royle's achievements were 'fantastic' then we'd need to invent a new word for Moyes's achievements, they don't compare.
Paul Wharton
36   Posted 12/04/2011 at 17:10:19

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Mike 35, David Moyes for me must have the worst record in the FA Cup of any Everton manager. Knocked out by a team that went out the league for starters Shrewsbury, Oldham, Reading etc etc.

Under his watch we have lost the record of semi-finalists in the FA Cup, if it's all about money, why didn't we beat all the lower league teams we faced?

League Cup anyone?

Mike Allison
37   Posted 12/04/2011 at 18:55:57

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"Worst record in the FA Cup of any Everton manager"

You can't mean that. He reached a final, Mike Walker and Walter Smith spring to mind who didn't.

I agree, it's a disappointing record in the cup; Moyes seems to have a tendency to produce reasonably consistent sides who will pick up league points but are vulnerable in cups... we can only speculate as to why or how that works.

But I didn't say "it's all about money". Money is a factor, and an important one, but not the only one. If it was all about money we'd never reach a final and finish lower than we do in the league every year. Thank God it's not all about money, thank God managerial skill comes into the equation, as that allows us punch above our weight on a regular basis.

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