How times have changed. I found a book in work today which mentioned William C Cuff. He took over Everton in 1901 and won the league in the 1914-1915 season. What happened in the intervening period.? Were there demonstrations outside the ground? Did he not have enough money to spend?
Anyway, my point is, where does David Moyes rate? The great Harry Catterick was boss when we were a big club, when the boss was the boss and, frankly, the views of the players mattered not a jot.
Billy Bingham was an old sergeant major type as well. Kendall was there as football began to change and in my view was the best. Catterick number two.
After that, well, I'd have Royle and then a dead heat between Walter Smith and David Moyes. That will annoy some people but, in my view, they are similar men and coaches.
Andy Crooks, Posted 08/04/2011 at 18:42:01
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1 Posted 08/04/2011 at 21:19:41
2 Posted 08/04/2011 at 21:14:19
David Moyes has a much better win ratio as Everton manager compared to Walter Smith and has a much higher average league finish than Smith. How are they equal?
3 Posted 08/04/2011 at 21:32:26
A subject that has been around before on TW and, sad bastard that I am, I have kept some stats from last time. Your post is interesting because you have tried to add some context but the stats on modern-day manager win %'s are:
Colin Harvey is a man that often gets forgotten!
4 Posted 08/04/2011 at 22:11:22
I'd rather Moyes over Smith any day. In fact, if Smith were brought back, I might find a bridge to jump off.
5 Posted 08/04/2011 at 22:27:33
Firstly, both have been betrayed by their chairman. Smith much more than Moyes, who in my view, has in many ways colluded with his chairman.
Secondly, Walter Smith has won trophies, I will not go over the old ground about SPL v The Premier League.
Walter Smith played with a shite hand at Everton, went to Rangers and won trophies. David Moyes has played a shite hand at Everton and will go to Celtic and win trophies. The similarity between the two men is, to me, uncanny.
6 Posted 08/04/2011 at 22:38:01
I also think Royle is overrated by Evertonians, sure we won the cup (but we had a large slice of luck on the way, anyone remember the Newcastle tie when they absolutely battered us?) and his biggest achievement in my eyes was keeping us up initially. He followed up well the next season but the feeling was we still underachieved that season. And his final season was disastrous!
7 Posted 08/04/2011 at 22:36:55
Ian had no previous managerial experience of any kind yet by golly he had the players jumping out of their skin. That year, had the team maintained its pre-Xmas results we might have won the league.
Ian's lack of football nous plus the fact that other managers found ways to counter our non-stop but naive running style that burst our bubble. Sweet memories of a time when things were simpler.
8 Posted 08/04/2011 at 22:55:58
What relevance has what Smith has won at Rangers got to do with his impact at Everton?
I thought your OP was about their management time at Everton? If so, there is no way that Smith and Moyes can be considered equal, the facts are there in black and white to show that they are not.
If you are not basing it solely on their time at Everton, then why have you got Royle ahead of Smith? (Smith has won more trophies than Royle.)
9 Posted 08/04/2011 at 23:03:57
1 HOWARD KENDALL 65.7
2 HARRY CATTERICK 59.6
3 COLIN HARVEY 57.4
4 JOE ROYLE 55.1
5 GORDON LEE 54.7
6 DAVID MOYES 54.4
7 BILLY BINGHAM 53.2
8 HOWARD KENDALL 51.2
9 JOHNNY CAREY 50.8
10 CLIFF BRITTON 50.3
11 THEO KELLY 47.1
12 WALTER SMITH 46.4
13 IAN BUCHAN 43.4
14 HOWARD KENDALL 41.7
15 MIKE WALKER 32.9
10 Posted 08/04/2011 at 23:16:14
Fair enough, I see what you mean about their time at Everton but can you really not see how alike they are? Either of them could save any of the bottom four in the Premier League but if you were the new billionaire owner of Everton you wouldn't want either of them.
11 Posted 08/04/2011 at 23:32:18
12 Posted 08/04/2011 at 23:43:12
13 Posted 09/04/2011 at 00:03:11
We got battered in the 4th round away to Bristol City/Rovers. They stuffed us out of sight but then Matt Jackson scored a superb goal late on.
Anyway, can you name a team that has won the Cup without a bit of luck along the way? Me neither.
And anyone who thinks Moyes is no better than Smith obviously didn't have a season ticket during the reign of Smith. I did.
14 Posted 09/04/2011 at 07:30:29
Unfortunately, this has been the pattern throughout and we have never been astute or intelligent enough to maintain consistency like Liverpool and later Man Utd. We still dine out on scraps and I can only say that I have seen the BEST that we have been able to manage (but only fleetingly). I would not make so-called legends of any of the lot we have had since the Premier League was formed. Even when we had John Moores to foot the bills, we never created a conveyer belt of success!!
15 Posted 09/04/2011 at 09:37:54
16 Posted 09/04/2011 at 09:09:45
Well, they have nothing to base their opinions on having never seen a 'real' team. Not withstanding the fact that, in (again) real terms, we have, post-WW2, only had 3.9 GREAT teams. IMO, the 87 team was just edged out of the medal position.
1st: '70, (Photo) 2nd: '85; 3rd: '63; 4th: '87. Subjective, I know, but that's how it was from my spec. in the Gwladys St.
So now the boot is on the other foot and I am the young one. I never saw Ring except for maybe the odd game, but all the others I saw enough to know class when I saw it.
Conclusion; what Carey had was a good team. Catterick tuned it up to a title-winning team. Does that make him and them Great? A Legend? You pays your money and takes your chances. But, like a lot of things, 'Great', 'Legend', etc have been debased by inflation and hype.
It would be good to see the draw and loss stats to go with the win ratios.
The old saying used to go (@2pts for a win) win your home games and draw away = win the league; 42 + 21= 63, not many teams got 63 pts and finished 2nd (Leeds??).
Again, IMO, Catterick is the top man. He rebuilt the 63 team. It took him 7 years and he only had a few survivors, and along the way the played some absolute shite.
Kendall Mk I got lucky (Boxing Day and Mike England in waiting in the stands???) and went with it.
Lucky you say?? Yes. Anyone who got a whole season out of those perennial sicknotes ? Gray, Sheedy and Reid ? got Lucky.
17 Posted 09/04/2011 at 09:48:21
18 Posted 09/04/2011 at 10:30:18
19 Posted 09/04/2011 at 10:37:57
20 Posted 09/04/2011 at 10:52:03
21 Posted 09/04/2011 at 10:46:49
And on the other hand, how would Catterick, Kendall or Harvey have managed the last 9 years with the funds Moyes has had? In terms of league positions and net spend, would they have managed any better than Moyes?
I'm only 33 so barely old enough to remember the success of the 80s, let alone the transfer dealings of that era and previous. Perhaps the older Blues among us would care to share some thoughts on that? I imagine they'd have taken us on much better Cup runs even if they couldn't afford to compete in the league, but maybe that's me looking back on them through blue-tinted specs?
As for Walter Smith, no dead heat for me. I'd take Moyes every day of the week.
22 Posted 09/04/2011 at 11:24:16
You do bring up an interesting point. I think generally Moyes has been rather successful in that regard ? aside from having to let Rooney and Lescott go due to transfer request, I believe he has always fought to keep the nucleus of his team together. I'd hesitate to label any of them creative but the 'better' players he has brought in are still here. Those that have left aren't setting the world alight elsewhere. Same goes for the Academy players. We've generally kept the best ones and let go of those who wouldn't get a game in any EPL team.
23 Posted 09/04/2011 at 18:16:03
The man spent a lot of money on a lot of poor players and somehow managed to get them playing football that was even worse than the sum of their parts. It was an attrocious period for the club and it is utterly baffling that you could even compare Smith to Moyes.
Under Smith, Everton finished in the bottom half of the table for three consecutive seasons. Under Moyes, Everton have regularly qualified for or at least challenged for Europe and he has won Manager of the Year 3 times.
24 Posted 09/04/2011 at 18:22:47
Everton's league record from August 18th to December 15th was, played 22, (won 8, drawn 4, lost 10) and they occupied 14th position. Their record from December 25th to April 27th was, played 20 (won 6, drawn 6, lost 8), and they finished the season in 15th position.
Although they enjoyed notable victories over (eventual League Champions) Manchester United, and Arsenal, they spent most of the season in the bottom half of the table, and were never in a position to mount a serious challenge in the league.
25 Posted 09/04/2011 at 19:07:02
How did you know? That's exactly what Ossie did! I guess you must be better than Walter Smith.
26 Posted 09/04/2011 at 19:10:26
27 Posted 10/04/2011 at 09:41:16
28 Posted 10/04/2011 at 10:58:20
Which posts are they?
29 Posted 10/04/2011 at 11:32:14
30 Posted 10/04/2011 at 12:56:03
Anything you or Brian want to post other than attacking Moyes or Kenwright?
31 Posted 10/04/2011 at 15:45:37
We won the cup in 1906 as you know, missed out on the double 1905 as in 1986. also a couple of beaten finalists under will.
Quote from Billy Merideth was Will Cuff and Ernest Mangall (Man Utd) were the best managers on a budget.
Will Cuff has the best record in Derby games 16 wins.
Will Cuff also started the Central League in 1911-12.
32 Posted 10/04/2011 at 16:17:34
Zero credibility for this I'm afraid Andy. Walter Smith's reign coincides almost exactly with my tenure as a season ticket holder, and what it feels like to be an Evertonian is completely different under Moyes. We play much better football, consistently finish higher up the league, and are respected as a decent/good team by the media and fans of other clubs.
Our disappointment of the last two years is failing to qualify for Europe; under Smith, the thought of Europe never once crossed our minds. Also, it's not as if Smith steadied the ship for a handover to Moyes, it was a team of 30-something defenders that Moyes inherited.
Joe Royle had a good season and a half, playing long ball and defensive counter-attacking football and finishing 6th once. For me, this doesn't compare with years of consistent top half finishes that Moyes has achieved. Obviously Joe won the FA Cup, and Moyes hasn't, but they both reached a final each, and the margins aren't massive. I'd argue if Eric Cantona hadn't jumped into the crowd at Crystal Palace that season then Joe wouldn't have won the FA Cup either.
33 Posted 10/04/2011 at 17:04:22
Astounding way to devalue that famous victory, to devalue the winning of a trophy ? which is what football is supposed to be about ? and to devalue Joe Royle's fantastic achievements as manager.
34 Posted 10/04/2011 at 21:08:58
35 Posted 12/04/2011 at 11:27:26
36 Posted 12/04/2011 at 17:10:19
Under his watch we have lost the record of semi-finalists in the FA Cup, if it's all about money, why didn't we beat all the lower league teams we faced?
League Cup anyone?
37 Posted 12/04/2011 at 18:55:57
You can't mean that. He reached a final, Mike Walker and Walter Smith spring to mind who didn't.
I agree, it's a disappointing record in the cup; Moyes seems to have a tendency to produce reasonably consistent sides who will pick up league points but are vulnerable in cups... we can only speculate as to why or how that works.
But I didn't say "it's all about money". Money is a factor, and an important one, but not the only one. If it was all about money we'd never reach a final and finish lower than we do in the league every year. Thank God it's not all about money, thank God managerial skill comes into the equation, as that allows us punch above our weight on a regular basis.
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