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Here we go again...

Comments (75)

The green shoots of spring are here again. The grim winter is behind us. David Moyes has done it again. He has, without funds, got us challenging for Europe once more. In fact, if the season were to start now... well, we'd be nailed on for the Champions League.

This summer is the most important ever. A couple of signings and we'll be there. The fans are happy again, except those, who apparently don't go to games, who are ridiculed on this site, and are at odds with those who can attend every week. Now, I'd be the first to admit that fans who attend every week see a different game and, frankly, their opinion might just carry more weight.

This is what astounds me: How can anyone be happy with this season? We have flirted with relegation for much of the season with a stronger squad than we have now. Why? The squad drops to utterly threadbare levels and we have our best run of the season, Why?

In my view, a lack of funding is irrelevant in this instance. This is a management problem. This is not intended as an anti-Moyes rant. I am aware of his qualities and the last six games have demonstrated them amply.

It seems to me that David Moyes is at his worst when the chips aren't down, when there are options to choose from and when expectations are high. It has been so in the past and it is about to happen again. It looks to me like the same story: David Moyes saves the day and Bill Kenwright looks good again.

I feel that David Moyes can have a deserved easier life elsewhere. I hope he takes us ahead of Liverpool and leaves with the respect of most of us.

Andy Crooks, Belfast     Posted 11/04/2011 at 19:24:34

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Tony J Williams
1   Posted 11/04/2011 at 21:12:12

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"This is a management problem. This is not intended as an anti-Moyes rant" Unfortunately you can't separate the two in the context of this post.

The start of the season every team has it all to play for and the "lower" teams will park the bus for a draw at Goodison and try and nick a goal, which they did at an alarming regularity.

At the business end of a season they cannot settle for a point and need the win and that's when we open them up and that's why our results seems to be better at the arse end of seasons.

The players let us down as much as the manager did this year, too many of them were utter gash the first half of the season.

Andy, I would be surprised if many posters say they are happy with this season, just happy that it has gotten better than what we feared may occur.

Lack of funding irrelevant? This old chestnut again. I will retort with the oft used other old chestnut. The teams who are playing for the title and Champions League, do they have the most money? QED.
John Daley
2   Posted 11/04/2011 at 21:43:40

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Just posted the following on the thread about Cahill, but I'll whack it on here as well as it seems more relevant:

Don't really think it has anything to do with whether or not Cahill is in or out of the side. Everton under Moyes have consistently shown that they crumble under the weight of high expectations. They are much more comfortable being the 'underdog' with their backs to the wall and thriving in adversity.

Although Moyes can clearly generate a hard-working, battling spirit amongst the squad, I don't think he actually instills in his players the belief that they can truly compete with the best.

At the weekend he was singing the praises of Leon Osman and proclaiming him to be a really good player, but then added the proviso that he has always been 'slightly below the level required to get into the England squad'. It just reminded me of when he tried to big up Baines by declaring him to be the 'second best' left back in the country after Ashley Cole.

Gerry Quinn
3   Posted 11/04/2011 at 21:43:48

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3-0 at the moment, which makes it harder for us to jump them... why the hell do the supposed good teams playing the Shite always seem to NOT turn up - City, same as Chelski and Manure??? Why don't they all play their normal game against an extremely average spawn of the devil side?
Antony Matthews
4   Posted 11/04/2011 at 21:37:16

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Also, when players are gash and out of form, DM tends to keep them in the team hoping their form improves... ie Arteta. If players are playing badly, they need to be dropped like the proverbial stone and benched.

Trouble is they can't play themselves into form in the reserves because of the risk of injury and the size of the squad. I do believe however that if players are too inconsistent they need to be moved on. Oh for 11 Leighton Baines!

Gerry Quinn
5   Posted 11/04/2011 at 21:47:41

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Anthony ? you are spot on with that comment about Moyes consistently picking out of form players ? trouble is that the reserves hardly play any matches, so if they drop down, they will not get match practice!
Tony J Williams
6   Posted 11/04/2011 at 21:48:51

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The biggest problem we face when our best players are playing crap is that we have nothing of any sort of quality to replace them. We can all suggest that we try the youngsters but, as it was shown with Gueye on Saturday, his debut on the Saturday before where he had a go and looked good, didn't prepare us for how poor he was against Wolves.

Class players like Arteta can have a moment of inspiration and can change a game even when they are playing badly; newbies hardly ever do that.
David Hallwood
7   Posted 11/04/2011 at 22:13:17

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Good call Tony J Williams #6, the fact that we couldn't strengthen in the summer has cost us dear. IMO the first part of the season Moyes was trying to solve the problem of right mid, before putting Coleman there, but to my mind he?s still an attacking full back not a wide mid. Also not having options up front in the way Spurs can call on 3 (and at the start of the season 4 quality strikers).

This still needs to be resolved for next season, but with finances being a stretched as they are I?m expecting to see Fellani, Rodwell, Heitinger & Bily and possibly Baines to go to generate the necessary funds. This will be one of the most important close seasons ever.
Tony J Williams
8   Posted 11/04/2011 at 22:49:56

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David, the worry is that we have been saying that since 2005 and yet we have yet to really see any meaningful investment or squad improvement. We are consistently trying to better our starting XI but we are selling better players to get other better players. We need to buy better players but also keep the ones we have.

Once we are able to do that we can progress forward.
Andy Crooks
9   Posted 11/04/2011 at 22:40:16

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Tony, I agree that when our best players are playing crap the lack of depth is a problem and ,therefore the lack of funding is a problem. However, our best players collectively, earlier in the season, playing crap is surely a management issue. Our consistently poor starts and decent finishes must be down to the coach. It seems to me that our poor starts are getting longer.

Next season our poor start might be long enough to see us relegated. We need a change in the summer. For me the least likely option is Kenwright and Moyes to go, The most likely is Moyes to go and unlike many who are careful what they wish for I believe that it could be something positive.

Phil Rodgers
10   Posted 11/04/2011 at 23:43:49

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How can lack of funding be irrelevant? Be reasonable. If we had more money, we would be higher in the league surely. I agree Moyes seems to work better when the chips are down but when we signed Andy Johnson and Lescott, then Yakubu the following season we had a great few years. I have been a critic of Moyes in the past but the facts are that he has raised the expectation levels to what they are now because, before he came along, we were shit for a very long time.
Andy Crooks
11   Posted 12/04/2011 at 00:40:44

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Phil, we haven't had a great few years since Joe Royle left. The greatest praise for David Moyes is that he has raised our expectations. Is that it? When he took over my expectation was higher than he wouldn't get us relegated.

The point of my post is:

1) We have had a poor season with some utterly woeful performances. Those performances were not due to lack of funds.

2) We are now moving up the table with a lesser squad than we started the season with. Why is this? Clearly something was wrong earlier. I cannot believe that we are still shit but other teams have got shitter.

3) Most importantly ? many Evertonians seem to be grateful that David Moyes has, against all the odds, turned things around, He got us in the shit and is now being praised for getting us out of it! There's a medical term for this.

Marcus Kendall
12   Posted 12/04/2011 at 01:08:05

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Great years under Joe Royle? Bit of an exagerration I think.

The league consistency Moyes has provided us is better than winning an FA Cup and then spending 'big' on the likes of Kanchelskis, Speed, Barmby etc and underachieving to such an extent it looked like we might even be in a relegation battle the season Royle left. Simply put, the FA Cup triumph clouds Evertonians judgements about Royle who was a decent manager but sadly lacking when it came to being a good manager.
Jamie Sweet
13   Posted 12/04/2011 at 00:55:03

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Are we not now just sitting in our rightful position as "Best of The Rest". Pretty much where we sit at the end of every season.

This will keep many fans happy. It will also keep Kenwright very happy as it helps to mask the shit that he is putting us in.

The really frustrating thing is that I think it would have only taken a moderate level of investment to make us real contenders this year.

The top teams have showed signs of weakness this season and pretty much everything was in place for the 24-year rule to ring true. But the footballing Gods didn't account for a great club like Everton being run by a great oaf like Kenwright when our turn came around again.
Ernie Baywood
14   Posted 12/04/2011 at 02:20:49

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So we find a reasonable investor who gives Moyes a bit of money to strengthen the squad. Nothing spectacular but a couple of new faces.

We're back to where we were at the start of this season.

Squad looks strong if not spectacular, but Moyes is overawed by the options available to him and sticks with tried and tested. Against Man Utd at home with them as out of form as they get, he picked Hibbert and Osman on the right. No investment is going to solve the problem that when the chips are down, Moyes reverts to tried and tested. Give him a massive squad and the only thing that changes is the wage bill.

He knows that his team/squad is good enough to finish in the top half. They've played together for a while and by playing unspectacular, uninspiring football we will eventually drift our way up to a respectable position by season's end. This isn't just talking with hindsight - it was talked about by a lot of people early in the season. Personally, I've only moved into the Moyes out brigade (if I must be labelled) during this season as for the first time I could see it happening.

He may be a genius, and these seasons may be the best we can hope for, but if you've got options that can open up a game for God's sake give it a go. You might fall flat on your face from time to time but that's got to be better than not bothering at all. Seems to me that the Moyes mantra is that you don't risk a defeat in order to gain a victory - you start with a point and the first priority is to not lose it.

I'm sick of it. The first 4 or 5 months set the season up. Who cares how we finish a dead league campaign.
James Flynn
15   Posted 12/04/2011 at 05:14:02

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Ugh - Enough about Moyes. We're missing a predator. Nothing wrong with Moyes.

If Ronaldo was in our side this season, where do you think we'd be? Let's just leave the losses as losses and only consider the draws. If we had Ronaldo, how many of the draws do you think would have been wins?

Tony Cheek
16   Posted 12/04/2011 at 07:01:39

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It looks like he is going to get away with it again. After a season with performances under all expectations, bad team selection, players playing out of position, playing games without a recognized striker on the pitch, bad and late substitutions, keeping better players on the bench than those picked and cowardly tactics.

Suddenly I can feel the "I don't think we can find anyone better" wave starting to build up again.

I can assure you we can and must if this club is ever going to put a trophy in the cabinet, or do we not have those expectations anymore? Is "best of the rest" good enough? Is anything more than that just a dream. Christ, what is happening to us?

Andy Codling
17   Posted 12/04/2011 at 07:27:17

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@ Marcus Kendall, one good season followed by one bad season under Moyes is better than winning an FA Cup Final????

How old are you and have you ever seen Everton win an FA Cup at Wembley???

Ridiculous comment.

Alan Clarke
18   Posted 12/04/2011 at 07:59:21

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Marcus (12) you sum up perfectly what has become of Everton's support and the apathy now amongst fans. How can finishing 17th, 7th, 5th, and 8th under Moyes and watching Osman on the right wing every season be better than winning the FA cup and signing Kanchelskis?

Have you had a bang to your head?

In defence of Moyes, you can't dismiss the investment issue. Look at the league and all the teams above us. They have all massively outspent us. The real problem in our club is Kenwright. Any fools who do now feel optimistic about next season because of our recent up-turn in form will be quickly brought back down to earth this summer when they realise Kenwright will sell off all our best players.
Matthew Lovekin
19   Posted 12/04/2011 at 07:52:00

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This is a management problem.

Moyes is a great manager for a smaller club. A club that is battling relegation. Moyes gets them into mid-table or even higher, on a shoestring with no ambition. Moyes instills a backs-against-the-wall mentality, a them-against-us attitude.

This is all fine if he is the manager of a small club. Everton were a small club when Moyes took over, constantly fighting relegation.

However, Moyes has rightly so taken Everton up a level, to where they should be, but Everton deserve more with their fanbase and history. The fans want more and are not content for midtable mediocrity.

Now, Everton need to be looking up rather than looking down. Firstly, the board don't have the money or the club doesn't generate the money to be able to push on, which is a management problem. Secondly, Moyes doesn't have the tactical nous to be a top manager. He has struggled with team selection when he has had options to choose from. The majority of his big money signings have been bad choices, his tactics have lacked against better teams/managers, e.g. in Europe. Moyes is simply not cut out to be a top manager.

Everton will not be a top team again whilst Moyes is manager and whilst the board can't provide funds. Unfortunately, it is a Catch-22. To sack Moyes could de-stabilise the club and ultimately lead to relegation, especially if they brought in a poor choice of manager, a manager that can't work without money as the board can't provide it.

We're currently stuck between a rock and a hard place. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.
David Crowe
20   Posted 12/04/2011 at 08:26:52

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Alan Clarke, you seem to have conveniently forgotten two years where we finished 4th and 6th.
Nick Entwistle
21   Posted 12/04/2011 at 09:06:16

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One of the worst posts ever. Still, it made me chuckle to read 'most important summer ever'.
Alan Clarke
22   Posted 12/04/2011 at 09:05:34

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Sorry David. I could also list our biggest ever home defeat, biggest ever away defeat, losing to the lowest placed league opposition in the cup and the lowest ever goals scored total in a season to Moyes' achievements too. I'd conveniently left them out.

My point really was that winning the FA cup and signing Kanchelskis ranks above finishing higher up the league and watching Osman on the right wing.
Tony J Williams
23   Posted 12/04/2011 at 09:00:46

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I have to disagree with you Matthew, it is also a funding issue. Look at Chelski, they pay £50m for Torres. he has a stinker so they drop him for Drogba or Anelka.

If we bought a £15m striker and he starts having a stinker, who do we drop him for? Anichebe or Glass Man Saha?

When Arteta is injured, who replaces him? Ossie? We all know what a lot of posters think abaout him.

This is the reason Moyes perseveres with out-of-form players ? because there is no-one else to replace them that he trusts will do a job for us.

"Suddenly I can feel the "I don't think we can find anyone better" wave starting to build up again" ? What about the "we are incredibly shit team but we expect to win and crap now we could end up finishing higher than last season" brigade of doom mongerers?
Tony J Williams
24   Posted 12/04/2011 at 09:10:32

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I agree with Alan about the FA Cup issue. Rather see a cup than get a high place in the league.
James Martin
25   Posted 12/04/2011 at 09:37:13

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"When Arteta is injured who replaces him? Ossie?" ? Yes, and who's been playing better and winning games? Oh, that would be Osman. Which player was part of a team that got into the top four, playing out of position on the right wing? Which player has had almost 10 years at the club whilst Kanchelskis had one and a half?

In no way am I saying Osman is more talented than Kanchelskis was, just for once would people lay off him considering he's in great form at the moment and along with Distin, Everton's best player for the second half of the season.

A bold decision for Moyes to make would be to ignore the calls for Fellaini, Arteta and Cahill to be reinstated straight away next season and stick with the team that is winning now.

Craig Taylor
26   Posted 12/04/2011 at 09:32:55

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Andy, I have to say that it is utter bollocks to suggest that, because you and others get to go to more matches, you are a better judge of how good the team is performing.

I watch as many games as I can, be it live, on TV or "eh hem streamed eh hem".

I would actually argue that watching a game on the TV gives a better insight.

But anyway, I agree that the team is getting into a postion that is better than performances this season should have got us to.

But the main problem Moyes has faced is that he has no money to take this club forward.

He has proved that he can coach teams to be better than the individual faces would suggest. Yes, I know, he hasn't won a trophy... but the majority of our league positions have been unimaginable.

To go further he needs money, and his hands are tied by the current board. This isn't anti-Board; it's fact that, regardless of any other faults the board may or may not have, they haven't got the financial clout to compete at the high end of the table.

Thread bare squad ? Do you really think Moyes wanted to let people go and not replace them?

One of the main reasons this season was so bad is because we haven't had a top class striker... Because we couldn't afford to buy one.

Moyes makes plenty of tactical mistakes, and is stubborn but if he goes who the fuck would come to us and do any better? Yes a question that has been asked before and offers many shit choices as well as unrealistic.
Tony J Williams
27   Posted 12/04/2011 at 09:47:31

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James, it wasn't my intention to have a go at Ossie, hence my "a lot of posters"... I think he is a cracking player, limited strength/pace wise, but one of the most skillful in the team.

The issue is that if Arteta is fully fit and playing poorly, which he had been doing this season, there would be uproar from "a lot of fans" if he dropped the best little Spaniard we know for Ossie, even if the results started to come in.
Andy Crooks
28   Posted 12/04/2011 at 09:52:31

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Nick and Tony, I fear you have mis-read my post. The first part of it was meant to be a complaint about how easily pleased we have become and a comment on the view that somehow those who go to the games are, in the main happy about Moyes.

Attending a game costs me about £300 so I have been to less this season than ever (three). Sorry, Tony, I really wasn't making that suggestion.

Paul Rice
29   Posted 12/04/2011 at 09:50:05

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WERE FUCKING 7th!!!! After having the same net spend as Michael Barrymore spends on mop handles!

For the love of fuck will you all stop whining!!!!!

Moyes is not shite, neither is Ossie and everyone else who's slated ? they're just not as good as other people who cost bazillions. They are exactly what they are ? players who cost nothing or peanuts.

We are as good as we can concievabley be expected to be.

Sorry - rant over :-P
Dave Wilson
30   Posted 12/04/2011 at 09:55:13

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You've hit the nail on the head, Andy lad.

Let's get rid of Moyes and replace him with a man who is at his worst when the chips ARE down.
Tony Cheek
31   Posted 12/04/2011 at 11:14:42

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Paul #29..... "We are as good as we can concievably be expected to be."

And that, my friends, is exactly where the problem lies; if you want more of the same next year then that's fine. I dare to hope for something better, and if that means taking a chance with a new manager then I will go with that. I do not accept that 7th was as good as we could expect this season.

Like my grandad use to say "Boy, if you sit still, you don`t go anywhere".

Matthew Lovekin
32   Posted 12/04/2011 at 11:07:43

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Tony (23) ? Why do people assume that if Moyes is given money to spend, he will spend it wisely and be a success?

Yes, he has spent wisely on lower budgets (£1.5m Cahill, £2.5m Arteta, £2m Pienaar, etc) but what about £11m Yakubu, £8m Johnson, £9m Bily, £6m Heitinga?

Moyes's transfer dealings tell me he puts in his homework to get the right player when he has little to spend, but when he has a bigger budget, he is a bit more carefree?

A more higher profile player is often a different type of mentality as well. Heitinga is a prime example of this. They think they deserve their high wages and have bigger egos than they should.

Why do people also think that Moyes could handle these players? Look at what's happened when players get above their station under Moyes. Rooney, Lescott for example? Do you really think Moyes could handle players like Berbatov or Tevez or Balotelli?

Don't assume Moyes will be a success if given money to spend. The same theory works in reverse as some managers can only be a success if given money, they fail if given no money.

A true great manager will be a success whether money or no money, with down to earth players or Bigtime Charlies. Moyes may have done well in his job so far, but he has not been a success.

Jose Mourinho won the Champions League with Porto. The equivalent would be Everton winning the Premier League. It is achievable (even if it is a one-off), but only with a potentially world class manager at the helm; Moyes is not.
James Smith
33   Posted 12/04/2011 at 11:22:12

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Paul 29 - you're so right, but until new investment is found we're punching above our weight seriously. The amount of times I've seen people suggest sacking Moyes and bringing in ROY FUCKING KEANE or someone of that ilk is mindblowing. Hello, Championship.
Tony J Williams
34   Posted 12/04/2011 at 11:32:28

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Matthew, why do some people authomatically assume that he will spend pororly?

The Yak, managed his biggest tally in a season then did his usual bit of getting bored and the near career-ending injury didn't help.

AJ, top scorer for a season, we got into Europe and sold on at a profit. Where did we buy him from? The Championship.

Meattie, again after the injury, was our top scorer... I think? He cost £6m but still our record signing at the time. £6m? That is buttons these days and wasn't really huge then.

£6m Heitinga? £6m in these money mad days is nothing and just above a third of our record signing Fellaini... best not mention him though, as it doesn't fit in with people's views that Moyes can't spend well with big money.

Bily... can't really argue that one but I personly think he will be a great player if we put him in the middle and reduce his defensive duties... which isn't going to happen as Beckford got the crooked finger for not defending from the top.

To summarise, out of our "big" buys, there is only one, in my view, that has genuinely disappointed me and that is Meattie. The big lump at the end couldn't even move his feet properly.

Bily, for all his detractors, still gave the same amount of goals and probably more assists than our player of the season last year and has beaten him this year despite probably still only playing a fraction of the time.
Ciarán McGlone
35   Posted 12/04/2011 at 11:53:14

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Green shoots of recovery?

Personally, I though Satrurday was a very poor game from us... apart from the couple of pieces of quality.

The midfield were all over the place with the exception of Osman, who wasn't bad in his natural position.

I've no idea where Gueye was playing, and neither did he...

It could've been 3-3 if Howard hadn't been on the ball...

I don't see much to be happy about from that performance ? individual moments of brilliance aside ? and a rare piece of skill from big Phil.
Dave Wilson
36   Posted 12/04/2011 at 11:53:10

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Any top manager who wanted to prove you could be successful without mega bucks would jump at the chance of joining EFC. We have easily the best team outside the wealthy clubs and would therefore offer the best chance of usurping them.

Will any of these top guys be interested? Will they fuck... they may have big egos but they know an impossible task when they see one.

The problem doesn't lie with people wanting Moyes at the helm under this board; it lies with people who, despite all the evidence, seem to cling to the idea that somebody else can win us trophies ? they can't, they won't.

Everton Football Club will not constantly compete at the very highest level until this board has gone. Anybody who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

In the meantime, finding a manager who will get us higher finishes will prove a very difficult task indeed; findiing one who will finish lower will be easy.
Paul Rice
37   Posted 12/04/2011 at 11:58:57

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@ Tony 31

I get the sentiment mate but look, the reality is football IS all about money these days... and we don't have any.

It doesn't matter if it's Moyes, Royle, Harvey, Kendall or Jose Mourinho ? we are simply (short of a fluke) as good as we're getting until we get a sugar daddy.

Let's say we had £20 mil to spend in the summer ? which we don't ? it wouldn't make a dent... and I don't mean 'it would only help the situation a little' ? it wouldn't make a dent! It would be four or five semi-decent players to add to the collection of other semi-decent players.

I know the football we play and the management style of Moyes makes Robin Cook look interesting but it's been effective enough to take us to 7th and have a couple of decent results out.

Sadly ? and I do mean sadly ? we all need to look at modern football in a different way: think of it like a company. Think of poor old Woolies: former giant, they ended up with no money, couldn't compete with other companies that were previously their peers (Tesco / Manure, Asda / Citteh, Argos / Arse). Ends up they can't get credit and no-one wanted to give trade credit insurance to them (pump money into it in Everton's instance).

I firmly believe 7th (maybe 6th if the Redshite don't re-tool in the summer) is as far as we (meaning Everton ? supporters, staff, manager, team, back office staff) can expect to go.

Aside from all that, I love your grandad's quote and I've written it out and stuck it on my monitor!

Alan Clarke
38   Posted 12/04/2011 at 12:13:51

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James Martin, it won't be Moyes making that decision, it will be Kenwright. All those players mentioned will most probably be sold this summer so you'll get your wish and Ossie will play every game next season.

Dave Wilson is right, we're fucked unless this current board go. Competing with those top 6 is all about money. This season hasn't been great overall but it's all we can hope for when we can't compete financially.
Ernie Baywood
39   Posted 12/04/2011 at 12:28:19

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We'd be better off with more money ? no-one can disagree with that. Irrefutable.

But this season, it's the excuse rather than the reason. We had the players, we performed against the better teams, we just played out the same percentage football against the lesser lights who keep it tight against us. Players showed form only to be dropped for Moyes's favourites.

The squad is lighter right now than ever ? so how is the logic playing out? Every season we improve when the squad trims itself down.
Andy Crooks
40   Posted 12/04/2011 at 12:44:40

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Dave, I agree entirely with your comments on the board. Bill Kenwright is safe while David Moyes constantly bails him out. Of course I am happy that he does bail him out; the alternative is unthinkable, but it does leave us in a dire situation.

In your view, what would it take to get rid of Kenwright?

Paul Rice
41   Posted 12/04/2011 at 14:35:31

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A ridiculous amount of money from anyone with the prefix 'Sheikh'.

Ernie ? genuine question ? do you really think we had the players to 'do it' this year?

Comparing player for player, the only teams we come close to above us are Tottenham (and that's a bit of a stretch) and the Redshite (arguably we were a better team for most of this season).

We were never going to win the league this year and Europe was a push ? we just need to be realistic until either the league has a massive reform which restricts the importance of 'vast somes of money' and takes us back to a time when 'a bit of money' was enough.

To be honest, I've lost so much interest in football that I've not really read up on these new rules that are being imposed ? is this going to help our situation at all... does anyone know?
Dave Wilson
42   Posted 12/04/2011 at 13:49:35

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Ah, now Andy ? that's a different question. I`ll do me best.

It may not always appear so on this site, but Davey Moyes has an absolute army behind him. Sure, his leadership has been unspectacular, but many many fans sympathise with his plight. He may never be loved, but he commands tremendous respect.

If he were to walk, many of his season ticket buying supporters would hold Kenwright and the rest of this non-contributing board directly responsible.

I believe ? and this is only my opinion ? that would be the moment. Evertonians from all sides of the house would be united in their desire to see the back of this board. Kenwright in particular will be friendless ? can't see the Spurs supporters standing shoulder to shoulder with him ? and pressure on him to go will be unbearable.

I then see two possible scenarios:

1) A rich guy takes over, backs the new manager, and EFC once again find themselves in the hunt for silverware...

2) Kenwright can't give the club away, holds on to ownership without ever leaving London, and destroys a promising young manager by asking him to manage a club with huge expectations but no transfer kitty.

You're wrong, Andy: NO Evertonian is happy with this season, but Scenario 2 is far from being impossible and it haunts many of us.

I believe a Moyes departure would trigger big changes, but the chances of those changes being for the better are only the same as them being for the worse. This club is far too important for some to want to flip a coin with regards to its future.

If Moyes can somehow see Kenwright out, I`ll happily bid him a fond farewell.
Phil Rodgers
43   Posted 12/04/2011 at 14:57:12

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Hindsight is a wonderful thing and their have been times when I have been as critical of Moyes as anyone: Hull away last season in particular. But the fact is, under Moyes, we have finished higher in the league than most people would have dreamed of in the nineties. Certainly higher than the so called 'glory years' under Joe Royle.

Although an FA Cup win was fantastic, it was sadly short-lived and his time at Everton didn't end very pleasantly. Now I wish Everton were the best team in the world but, with or without Moyes, we have not got the finances to compete at the highest level.

Paul Rice
44   Posted 12/04/2011 at 15:33:58

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Fair play, Dave, I think you've just hit the nail on the head where I couldn't there.

No Everton fan is happy but some are just more prepared to accept our lot (and in honesty I can't really blame those who don't).
Andrew Keatley
45   Posted 12/04/2011 at 16:02:39

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When Moyes has a full squad to pick from, he picks the same starting XI regardless of the opposition. We know that ? and the rest of the league knows it too. So it makes us easier to play against ? especially since the way we play is hugely predictable anyway as all of the players are tightly tethered by Moyes's tactics ? and we lack a game-breaking player who can beat two or three men with a combination of pace and skill.

When we have the sort of injuries that we currently have, then it forces Moyes to be a bit more creative with his selections ? and hence leaves other managers uncertain of the make-up and dynamic of the Everton side he will be putting out.

Wenger, Ferguson, Mancini, Redknapp, Ancelotti ? they all have bigger and better squads, which give them bigger and better options. But they rotate their starting XIs dependent on the game in front of them. Even with a fully fit squad ? which (when we are lucky enough to have it) has at least 20 players who are capable of making the starting XI ? Moyes has previously shown that he has a pre-determined XI that he will play regardless.
Scott Goin
46   Posted 12/04/2011 at 16:19:48

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The only thing that will put Everton among the top clubs and be able to compete for Champions League and silverware is to spend a lot more money. There are two ways to get that money: Get a billionaire benefactor to swoop in save us (very unlikely) or moving to a state-of-the-art new stadium with luxury boxes and high revenue streams.

Without money to spend, no good manager will want to join Everton and sacking Moyes becomes a meaningless act and, at worst, disastrous.

The board's biggest failure is that we didn't get a new stadium built. From a business standpoint, the lack of a stadium with high revenue is scaring off any potential investors that could put us over the top. So it's a Catch-22: We can't get an investor without a stadium but don't have the money or backing for a stadium without a new investor.

Quite frankly, I don't see any solution to this problem. The good thing is that we at least have hope at the beginning of every year. If our players play to the top of their ability all year, we could do great things. Some teams don't even have that.
Nick Entwistle
47   Posted 12/04/2011 at 16:43:41

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If some Everton fans are happy to accept our lot and this is manifested in the continuation of support for David Moyes, what exactly would other fans expect to achieve greater success?

So you'd start with a change of manager. Who? And what will happen from there?

I used to think this should be Moyes's last season if he couldn't get 4th, but where exactly are we supposed to go if not with the ginger one? (Who's that Dutch manager, forget his name, was at Chelsea, I'd have him in a blink, but other than that...)
Tony J Williams
48   Posted 12/04/2011 at 16:59:04

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"Moyes has previously shown that he has a pre-determined XI that he will play regardless" ? Yes he is infuriatingly predictable with his selections... but the more I look at it the more I think... who can he replace the starting XI places with?

A full squad still only means, for us, a strong starting XI and a couple, maybe three, other decent players.

It's easy for us to say that he should rotate to befuddle the opposition, the problem is that we don't have anyone good enough to displace the starting XI, so changing it around would mean weakening the team.
Marcus Kendall
49   Posted 12/04/2011 at 17:42:31

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As Phil Rodgers puts it, and more eloquently than I did, the so called glory years under Joe Royle were in fact an illusion.

Consistent high league placings is much more of an achievement than a Cup win which requires less consistency and a whole load of luck (look at Liverpool for proof).

Moyes is twice the manager Royle was, in fact what has Royle done since leaving Everton?
Karl Masters
50   Posted 12/04/2011 at 18:05:03

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Dave Wilson # 36 Spot on.

With the current Board and EPL being the way it is, Moyes is the best man for the job. He ain't perfect, but who is? Just ask Arsenal supporters about Wenger!

Andy Crooks ? you say you think Moyes leaving would be positive, but you don't really describe why or how you think this will make things better and I have to ask you this.... WHO do you think would do a better job? And please don't say Ian Holloway, Glenn Hoddle or Steve Coppell! :)
Marcus Kendall
51   Posted 12/04/2011 at 18:23:10

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Karl Masters, Moyes is a good manager but I don't see us winning a trophy under him.

Two managers I would take a chance on would be Poyet or Lambert but I concede that both may crash and burn like Martinez at Wigan. However, they may bring something more to the party than Moyes is able to do, some will say the risk is worth it and some would be cautious and stick with what they know.
Dave Wilson
52   Posted 12/04/2011 at 18:59:15

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Not a question of being cautious Marcus.

You are entitled to your opinion and I respect it, but I for one am not prepared to risk the future of our club on the strength of it.

I can only speak for myself: This club plays a massive, massive part in my life and if the people advocating the latest flavour of the month get their way, it will be absolutely no consolation to me if they are proved wrong.

What are they going to say? ... Oops?
Kunal Desai
53   Posted 12/04/2011 at 19:29:08

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Our current league position is clear evidence that the Premier League, aside from the top 5, is dross! Little consistency amongst the other 15 teams. Put a run of three wins on the spin and it creates a pretty picture.

Let's not lose sight of the real problems at Everton. Once again, these will come under scrutiny in the summer and more than likely we the fans will be left frustrated and pointing the finger at one person only ? BK!

Stephen Kenny
54   Posted 12/04/2011 at 19:38:14

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Andy Crooks,

Some very strange comments on this thread considering your obvious dislike for David Moyes... Have you changed your mind about him?

For me there is better than Moyes out there. Not loads but there will be a man who with this squad and this board could and would achieve more.

We can't get Ferguson or Mourinho or Wenger but we can go and find the next one. A man who can build a whole club in his image instead of just a team. That's what we need and that's what we should be asking for.

We don't have a divine right to win but we do have an obligation to try and uphold our club's motto, a motto that we should apply to our player's, board and to ourselves.

Anyone who thinks we are powerless to change things is a fool, we just don't have the desire, although we should have.

I'd always thank Moyes for the stability and respect he brought back to us, but that's all he's given us. In return we have given him an unprecedented amount of time in the job and the tools, albeit limited, to build his own team and club.

He has built a mid-table side that plays mid-table football. To carry on like that goes against the essence of competition, sport, whatever you want to call it.

Every athlete that enter's the Olympics trains for and is striving for gold; whether they have the ability is another matter, but they all try to be the best. So should we, and never be happy until we are.
Andy Crooks
55   Posted 12/04/2011 at 20:29:59

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Stephen. I haven't changed my mind. The first part of my post was an obviously poor attempt at irony. I won't try it again. My post 11 tried to put hat right.
Paul Rice
56   Posted 12/04/2011 at 20:42:14

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I'm quite up for having my opinion changed and a lot of the posts on this site do make me sit back and ponder my standpoint.

I'm struggling at the moment to envisage who would come in and what they would do that would be so revolutionary... so ? assume we are just a potless as we are now but with a new manager ? someone give me a glimpse into the future as to who the new revolutionary manager is and what he will do to make a 'significant' difference to Gollum?
Matthew Lovekin
57   Posted 12/04/2011 at 21:11:44

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Stephen (54) that's exactly what I have been trying to say.

It's a bit like Russian Roulette, do you stick (with mediocrity), or twist and get success with a future great manager (Lambert, Poyet?) or perhaps burn (relegation)?

Personally, I'd risk it. Nil Satis Nisi Optimum and all that!
Andy Crooks
58   Posted 12/04/2011 at 21:03:23

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Paul, David Moyes will never be sacked. If he were to resign in protest at lack of funding then a scenario mentioned earlier by Dave Wilson might unfold, ie, fans turning in droves against Kenwright. I don't think that will happen either. Not only is David Moyes well paid but he has been remarkably loyal to Kenwright.

We have returned to the comfort zone in the league and many are fearful of a disaster without Moyes. I don't share this fear. It is my opinion that a different manager could have over the whole season done a better job. Turned some draws into wins, maybe have taken us further in the cups. It seems I am in a minority and that's fair enough.

As to naming the new revolutionary manager, well, I tried in a previous post. I just believe that we are a hugely prestigious club offering a huge salary and I cannot believe that David Moyes is the best available to us.

Paul Rice
59   Posted 12/04/2011 at 21:48:09

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Fair play, Andy, everyone's entitled to an opinion but I'm just wondering what another manager could of done that really could of made that much difference.

I genuinely don't think the best that the world has to offer would of made anything more than maybe 1 position difference in the league... Don't get me wrong: I hate how negative Moyes is at times... but I still can't see what the alternative is.
James Hollister
60   Posted 13/04/2011 at 04:00:26

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What does it matter where Moyes finishes in the league?

At the end of the day, people are either new fans to this club and haven't really got a clue of how hard the league was back in 1995-96 or some fans have very selective short-term memories.

At the end of the day, this club exists to win things, not to sit in mid-table mediocrity. Don't talk to me about money and having none. Under big Joe, we had a team back then that was utterly fucking woeful compared to what we have today (and even back then we had no money!) in a league far more competitive than it's ever been. (Back then the only competition was at the top end.)
And the season we almost got relegated under Joe there where very mitigating circumstances... the squad was absolute gash... but it still won silverware.

To make excuses and to be a self-confessed apologist for this current manager (by your obvious statements) who has won fuck all with us, defies any logic.

Finishing high up in the league is better than winning an FA Cup? Give me a break.

If we where to win the FA Cup, you apologists would be screaming the house down in delirium like the rest of us non-apologists. Which proves the point that finishing high in the league is not as important as putting silverware on the table ? at least not to me.

I'd love for us to go out and win the league... but I'd love it more if we could actually win something. 16 long barren years is just way too long for us long-suffering fans.
James Hollister
61   Posted 13/04/2011 at 04:21:53

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Andy Crooks ? There are a number of things that could make Moyes walk away.

1) The fans want him out. (He said publicly pretty recently that he would only stay so long as the fans want him as the manager, otherwise he'd walk away.)

2) If, after his meeting with the board of liars, they are unable to secure him immediate funds this summer, and further erosion of his already threadbare squad... for example, selling 2 players he wants / needs to stay in Fellaini and Rodwell.

3) The immediate sale of both Fellaini and/or Rodwell in the summer. He needs them as his nucleus of the squad. Loosing them would be devastating to the team, imo.

4) The board lacks any ambition, in that they have failed to secure further funds for up coming transfer window.

Any or all those combinations may well make him do a reality check. Personally, I just can't see how without strengthening in the summer how this team could last another season. This situation is an absolute unmitigated disaster.

Don't for one minute think that, because Moyes chooses to walk, the rest of the fanbase, will jump down BK's throat, because as has already been shown for the past two seasons alone, they will not. There is just way too much apathy in the fanbase.

IMO if the board where actually ambitious, not only would they some how find a source of funding for new players, they'd also realize that to win anything, they'd need a manager with more clout and ability to do it, something that's been mentioned above... under him we'll always be also-rans, almost getting there but never over the final hurdle.
James Hollister
62   Posted 13/04/2011 at 04:39:32

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And finally, why are people asking who would you choose as manager?

That's the board's job not ours so it's a pointless and utterly silly question.

The fact is, it's not our job to go looking for these managers, we have no say in who gets appointed. This is the job of the board, and at no point do we have single say in the matter.

Hypothetical should remain in the firm lands of fantasy... if you want to ask this question... ask the board not the fans.
Phil Rodgers
63   Posted 13/04/2011 at 05:22:10

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James, it seems to me that you are attacking people for having the audacity to want the club to stick with a manager who has been with the club 9 years and in that time completely transformed the club from relegation battlers into a team who have consistently had a crack at the top 4/5 teams in the land.

Also, claiming that an FA Cup win is more important than league placings strikes me as a little hysterical. Surely Portsmouth fans would rather be in the Premier League with no FA Cup win and the top sides the opposite or maybe that's a matter for opinion. Which at the end of the day is all any of us are expressing.

Dave Wilson
64   Posted 13/04/2011 at 08:19:07

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James: You seem to me to be very confused there fella.

Your posts are littered with inaccuracies and contradiction.
You claim that the team that won the FA Cup was woeful compared with today are you sure? That team contained some Everton all-time greats; at least half the team would walk into today's side.

You claim we had no money to spend back then... so how were we able to prize Kanchelskis away from Man Utd just after winning it? You say "that season we almost got relegated under Joe"... err no we didn't, Royle took over a team anchored to the bottom and steered it to safety long before the Cup Final.
You then rather laughingly accuse others of being "new fans, with short memories, who haven't got a clue".

You seem to think calling other Evertonians childish names it somehow enhances your argument, it doesn't ? do you even know what 'apologist' means? seriously?

Have you ever noticed, people who supports Moyes don't resort to calling you silly names? Perhaps they don't feel the need to?
When you attack the individual with silly name-calling, it gives people the impression you don't have a counter argument to their point. and when you finish your already error strewn posts with statements like "I`d love us to go out and win the league ? but I would much rather we actually won something" your posts become more beneficial to the defence than they are to the prosecution.

Dave Wilson
65   Posted 13/04/2011 at 09:06:02

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Btw James

You seem to display an awful lot of faith in this board to select us a new manager; touching.

but if you really believe a group of fans can have no say in who their new manager is, I suggest you take a look across the park.
Paul Rice
66   Posted 13/04/2011 at 09:05:12

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So, in a nutshell, James, you acknowledge that the league is beyond us and you basically want a manager to come in and win the Coca Two Bob or the FA Cup every season and sod the league.

You must be suggesting that because you surely cannot be bananas enough to think you can compete in the league with no money... Oh that's right, you go on to say that in your next post after bleating that 'we didn't need any money to win back in 1995'.

So that's the business plan sorted then: Win the FA Cup every year ? I don't know why I didn't think of that.

It's not a case of being an apologist or not. The question is being asked "Who would do better in the same situation any why'... you can't say its all up to the Board to pick an new manager mid-debate, refuse to discuss it but then demand that Moyes is binned off (also a decision that would sit with the Board and not us).
Matthew Mackey
67   Posted 13/04/2011 at 09:38:25

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"This summer is the most important ever..."

If I had a pound for every year and every time I've heard this statement churned out by anyone related to Everton Football Club then I'd be a rich man... richer than Bill Kenwright some may say.
Tommy Coleman
68   Posted 13/04/2011 at 10:34:45

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Win when it doesn't matter, lose when it does.

That is the philosophy of a loser, so is "we can't win a trophy without money", yet Moyes has spent £150m on building his team and won nothing... but somehow Birmingham managed to do it this season.
Anthony Hughes
69   Posted 13/04/2011 at 10:47:09

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We all know it's going to be another Groundhog scenario during the summer. A couple of players out, a couple of cheapo players in, a couple of loanees, some fans claiming we can get fourth slot. The usual slow start, early exit from one of the cups, followed by a mini revival to even us out in the table after a flirtation with the relegation places.

Moyes won't quit, like him or not; Kenwright won't sack him... and so we go, on and on again. Until this useless Board of ours is gone then we are going to stand still as a club.

Marcus Kendall
70   Posted 13/04/2011 at 23:47:00

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Winning trophies is all well and good but I'd wager Birmingham fans would swap our season for theirs, especially as there's a chance they could go down.

I'm not Moyes's biggest fan but I'm grateful to him for the consistency he brings and I'd rather that than winning the League Cup but being scared shitless that we could be going down with 6 games to go.

And to Mr Hollister who suggests I'm a new 'fan'; I am actually coming up to 34 years old and I watched many a game under Joe Royle's management and I was never convinced by him or his style of football. I don't get sentimental with club legends and I also think Duncan Ferguson wasn't a legend so many make out he was.

And Royle spent money, enough to compete at the sharp end. Kanchelskis, Barmby, Speed, Craig bloody Short! to name but a few. He failed in my book and his career post-Everton suggests what I believe and that is he was and is a mediocre manager.
Brendan O'Doherty
71   Posted 14/04/2011 at 02:27:22

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"What does it matter where Moyes finishes in the league?"

Possibly the most ridiculous question/statement ever posted on here.

Michael Kenrick
72   Posted 14/04/2011 at 02:37:23

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So... A mediocre manager who won us a trophy in his first season... and went when his plans were thwarted.

Or... A mediocre manager who can't buy a trophy (ha! not the best pejorative) ? nine seasons and counting... and who hasn't even got the good grace to just walk away.
James Flynn
73   Posted 14/04/2011 at 03:12:10

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There's no reason for Moyes to quit. We're minus top-class finishers and that's it.

How has Mr. "Beautiful Game" Wenger done since dumping Henry? Does anyone think Van Persie has replaced him?

In fact, let's go way back to ManU in the early 90s. Ferguson doesn't get Cantona? Is he a "Sir" now?

The frustration is we're so close, yet the key ingredient for silverware is missing. Predators.

It's not Moyes.
Daniel A Johnson
74   Posted 14/04/2011 at 12:37:59

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Let's hope Moyes walks and quickly.

A fresh strat a new beginning.

If you can't do it after 9 years, give some other fucker a go. But Moyes will be stinking pre-season and the start of the season out with his sulking/moody interviews, crap team selection and defensive formations at home.
Marcus Kendall
75   Posted 14/04/2011 at 12:54:13

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"...went when his plans were thwarted"? You mean when he wasn't allowed to bring in the likes of Barry Horne and Claus Eftevaag! Sure Flo turned out to be decent but the other 2 were seriously low-mark acquisitions.

You're blinded by the FA Cup win, fair enough if that is what you look for but give me a manager who by and large gets the results in the league instead.

And I'm not even Moyes's biggest fan! I'd take the chance on Poyet personally but it really gets my back up when people say Royle was better than Moyes. Never in a million years!

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