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David Moyes on MotD2

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I was very surprised to see David Moyes on MotD2 tonight. Apparently, the first current manager for some time. Why was he doing it? He was treated with great deference and the only meaningful question he faced was with regard to our slow start each season. It seems it baffles him as much as the rest of us,

Frankly, I just don't get it. There was nothing there to benefit Everton but much to perpetuate the view that he is a great manager operating on a shoestring. He acquitted himself well but it seemed to me to be self-serving.

Certainly he comes across as totally determined but I'd rather he was relaxing at home over a glass of wine while pondering on another poor performance at Old Trafford and thinking of what he will do on Monday morning to remedy it; West Ham were better at Chelsea and Bolton showed more against Arsenal.

I have been prepared to write Saturday off because of injuries but there was a smugness and an acceptance of plaudits tonight that made me feel uncomfortable...
Andy Crooks, Belfast     Posted 25/04/2011 at 00:19:05

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Sam Morrison
1   Posted 25/04/2011 at 07:12:17

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Andy, you seem to be the go-to guy for deconstructing Moyes right now. Some of it's valid, but I'm not sure why you're fretting about this.
Nik Ramsden
2   Posted 25/04/2011 at 07:55:25

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Any excuse to have a go at the guy. I was pleased to see him on there and thought he came across well. There is an obvious respect for him out there and believe it or not some of these guys do know what they are talking about. I'm not always a fan of MotD so don't take this the wrong way but there isn't always an opportunity to knock Moyes every single time he does something.

The performance on Saturday was disappointing but we all know the squad is down to bare bones and Man U are in good, persistent form even with a slightly weakened line up. They are undoubtedly going to be League Champions; we could be higher up the league with a better start but I genuinely believe he's doing a good job with the resources available (he says... opening himself up to the inevitable Moyes boo boys critisism, but we're all entitled to our opinions).

Give the guy a break, I for one was pleased they wanted him on the show and it gave us a chance to see him away from the normal press interview scenario.
Ray Robinson
3   Posted 25/04/2011 at 09:42:52

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West Ham played more openly than us at Chelsea and lost 3-0. Enough said.
Trevor Mackie
4   Posted 25/04/2011 at 09:37:46

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I love Moyes, he's the greatest, just look at what he gives us.
  • We don't have to worry about competing for the title, a top 4 spot or even a top 6 spot.
  • There's no need to get wound up about the cups because most likely we'll be uncompetitive in both, probably doing that crazy "beaten and humiliated by lower league opposition" thing ? oh, the magic of cup competition!
  • At selected grounds we can all do the garden because we're beaten before we get off the coach.
  • Our play will remain predictable, mostly defensive, lacking pace, invention or excitement ? but hey, who wants a heart-attack watching football?
  • We will continue to be linked with defensive personnel only.
  • We will finish below 7th.
I'm licking my lips in anticipation for next season.

Derek Thomas
5   Posted 25/04/2011 at 10:00:11

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Less of the softly softly sugar coating Trev, you're sounding like Doddy on marshmallows... for once in your life, will you just let go and say what you think.
Trevor Lynes
6   Posted 25/04/2011 at 09:57:01

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Trevor (#4) ? I cannot agree with your sarcastic comments. DM is not to blame ? the lack of support is palpably the problem. He has to play Anichebe as he has no alternative, we have the poorest strikers in the league, just look at all the other teams.

Saha is by far the best we have and he is very fragile (like Ledley King). We will only get about 20 games a season out of him. Becks is very raw and will never make Premier League standard as he is not a youngster. At best, he needs a Saha playing with him to enable him to get space.

Who else do we have? Vellios is an unknown quantity but does not look ready from my vantage point. We utilize the loan system negatively as a means to lower the wage bill. I do not except any other reasoning from the club BS. DM is operating on a wing and a prayer, luckily we are safe so far but, unless new blood is injected soon, I can see our better players moving away.

Results are the main thing keeping DM in work and he is doing very well with the squad he has. Sometimes injured players become injury-prone and psychologically lesser players, I just hope we don't have any problems in that way... We have allowed Gosling to go for free and Pienaar to go for virtually nothing. We have loaned out a full team of players so we are totally bereft of cover of any experience.

Direct your criticism in the right direction ? at the board who have allowed our beloved side to subside into mediocrity and probably less. UNLESS SOMETHING IS DONE TO BRING IN NEW PLAYERS, WE WILL GO NOWHERE EXCEPT DOWN!!!

Antony Matthews
7   Posted 25/04/2011 at 10:01:59

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The worst thing to stomach is that United rested certain players for their midweek Champions League match and with doing so sent a signal to Everton that treated us with contempt. So what do the boys in Blue do? Instead of Moyes winding the boys up and saying to them that United think they can beat us with a piss poor defence, we employ one man up front and 10 men behind the ball ? AGAIN!

For god's sake, they are probably the worst United team for a decade and we are still can't go to OT and give them a game. Our defence looked solid so why on Earth do the midfielders not want to cross the halfway line? Is it because of instruction and that the shape of the team must not be undermined? Or is it because a 1-0 defeat away at United is acceptable?

Moyes should be kicking arse with the players for not having a go, not praising them for keeping United out for 85 mins! I wonder if we will play the same at lowly Wigan. Somehow I think the mindset will be different but it shouldn't be.

Andy Crooks
8   Posted 25/04/2011 at 10:08:33

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Sam, here's why I'm fretting over this: Can you imagine Wenger or say, Grant guesting on Motd after the weekend? I'm sure they were smarting too much.

I accept that David Moyes is a passionate committed manager but he seemed pleased with Saturday's performance. The only person who benefited from last night was David Moyes. Fair enough, the guy maybe sees a future career beckoning and has to promote himself... but, to me, his timing was shit.

Trevor Mackie
9   Posted 25/04/2011 at 10:16:47

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Trev @ 6

That's why I'm supporting Moyes, all those things you've mentioned have got nothing to do with Davey, to say he's complicit would be like blaming a bystander at a car crash ? it's definitely someone else.

The clouds have parted and the bright light of revelation has warmed my old bones. Football is about a day out, a chance to talk computer game analysis with like-minded souls and expound upon Alan Hansen's latest "gettit off the park" theorem.

How ridiculous is the notion that this club can cause a ripple in the football sea of life when we are but minnows among the great Barracudas that surround us.

No, all things considered I'm on board the "dispassionate realist" boat. The old way of Everton being competitive, a respected name in football, renowned not just for winning but for playing beautifully is much overrated.

Now where's that playstation, I need to get ready for the next game.
Kevin Hudson
10   Posted 25/04/2011 at 10:24:42

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Pointless complaint really. His appearance on the show would have been scheduled weeks ago. Having lost on Saturday, what would you have him do, Andy? Renege on his agreement? That could then have become public knowledge, and undoubtedly we would have seen a ToffeeWeb article critical of him for not "fronting up."
Andy Crooks
11   Posted 25/04/2011 at 10:38:38

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Fair point, Kevin, which I hadn't considered. However, if his appearance was scheduled weeks ago, he wasn't to know what our league position would be like which makes this arrangement even more inappropriate. Why does he need to be on at all?
Jimmy Hacking
12   Posted 25/04/2011 at 10:44:16

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Andy, when a current Premier League manager appears on Match of the Day, do you seriously expect them to say anything even remotely controversial? Or for the pundits to treat them with anything other than quiet awe?

Everything to do with MOTD is very much "dial-a-cliche" at the best of times anyway.
Jamie Barlow
13   Posted 25/04/2011 at 10:42:14

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It wasn't hard to guess who wrote this thread. Moyes on MotD2!!!! What a horrible shit manager he is!!! Moyes out!!!!!
Trevor Mackie
14   Posted 25/04/2011 at 10:56:34

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Moyes is only one letter different from Moses.

He will lead us to the promised land ? no language, please.
Kevin Hudson
15   Posted 25/04/2011 at 10:52:21

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A football manager discussing the game on a television show devoted to football. "Inappropriate?" ? How?

League position & results are irrelevant... Stop "fretting," Andy.
Graham Fylde
16   Posted 25/04/2011 at 11:38:07

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The real problem with his appearance was that shirt. Different colour collars are really naff and where naff as far back as I can remember. A man on his wedge must be able to do better.
Andrew Clare
17   Posted 25/04/2011 at 12:00:11

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I agree, Andy. After a very poor performance against Man Utd reserves in a very poor standard Premier League, I want my manager to be too angry to even contemplate appearing on TV.

Trevor's (# 4) sarcastic comments are spot on. We just look like a bunch of shitty 'no hopers' from mid-table who United expect to beat even with their poor second eleven ? very depressing. All or nothing, I say. I want a manager who knows who we are!

Our standards have slipped alarmingly over the years. Any manager that wasn't challenging for honours would have been shown the door long ago; now we are happy with mid-table obscurity every year and no chance of ever winning anything ? bloody awful!

Somebody buy our club and rescue us from this nightmare please!!!

David Hallwood
18   Posted 25/04/2011 at 12:12:41

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And he didn't have the decency to wear a black tie. Bastard!
Jamie Barlow
19   Posted 25/04/2011 at 12:26:02

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Andrew, don't you mean our reserves couldn't compete with The Champions reserves. Something you seemed to have overlooked.
Jeff Magee
20   Posted 25/04/2011 at 12:33:59

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So ManU had their second/third team out? Just do a comparison of the two teams and tell me who in our team would displace any of their second/third raters? The only ones who would have a sniff would be Jags and Bainsey ? and this of course is all Moyesie's fault!?

So what if he is putting himself in the shop window ? surely no one else would be stupid enough to employ him? What has he ever done for us? Surely 75% of TW contributors must be wetting themselves about the possibility that someone would be willing to take him off our hands and then we are free to employ Avram Grant to lead us to the promised land of Championship football! After all, West Ham have played 'scintillating' football all season and are headed down which is where we will go if Moyesy leaves us ? IMHO.

Ben Jones
21   Posted 25/04/2011 at 12:50:45

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I was pleased about it; Moyes's appearance actually gave us some coverage on MOTD, I actually enjoyed watching it.

Seeing Moyes have some banter about Colin was great to see.

Just chill, Andy mate, I think you're looking too much into it.
Trevor Mackie
22   Posted 25/04/2011 at 13:31:38

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Jeff @ 20

It was bordering on irrational from the get go, but West Ham playing "scintillating football all season" is.... well... how can I put this?

Spot on!!!

(PS. I'm reaching for the playstation controller right now secure in my membership of the new breed of evertonian.)

Jay Harris
23   Posted 25/04/2011 at 13:43:25

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What logic possesses anybody who felt we should have beat Utd and the referee at Old Trafford with a bunch of kids and free transfers.

It is a pity the venom isnt aimed at our "No plan B " board of directors.
Ryan Holroyd
24   Posted 25/04/2011 at 14:01:42

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You've only got to look at who wrote this nonsense. It was obvious reading it before I looked at the name. The person who wrote this believes Shane Duffy is Everton's biggest and best asset? Go figure.
Ray Roche
25   Posted 25/04/2011 at 14:01:17

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My only complaint is that he didn't ask why we're always on last.....

Graham Fylde @ 16:- The Gok Wan of Toffeeweb. FFS.....
Graham Fylde
26   Posted 25/04/2011 at 14:49:46

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Ha ha, brilliant Ray. Yes you're right, his shirt colour is as pointless as......well most of the foregoing.
Ste Traverse
27   Posted 25/04/2011 at 15:05:54

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Moyes has done a bit of punditry for the BBC before so who fucking cares?

Got nothing better to worry about, Andy?
Duncan McDine
28   Posted 25/04/2011 at 14:52:05

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What's wrong with him being on MOTD?... its clear you don't like the man, but get a grip!

The state of the club is the depressing thing... and that's not DM's fault. Kenwright needs some real pressure put on him to sell up. In this state, any new manager would have no chance of doing any better than Moyes.

However, as much as I respect what he has done on a shoe string... I wouldn't want David Moyes in charge of spending money if a new owner did come in.
Craig Taylor
29   Posted 25/04/2011 at 15:20:21

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So he isn't allowed to do his own thing, in his own time. Or is he not allowed some time off?

For fucks sake give him a break.

Doing MoTd2 is probably more beneficial to us than him sitting in front of the TV with a glass of wine.
Antony Matthews
30   Posted 25/04/2011 at 16:29:40

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You don't see anyone from United on MOTD. They probably have their feet up in front of the TV, just like their goalie could have done at 12:45 on Saturday gone.
Tony J Williams
31   Posted 25/04/2011 at 17:27:19

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That's probably because Old Whiskey Nose doesn't speak to the BBC anymore.
Ian Edwards
32   Posted 25/04/2011 at 17:54:37

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Anyone with an ounce of intelligence knows why we had a slow start to the season.

Teams came to Goodison and parked the bus and Moyes stuck with his one up front and no pace in the team and we floundered as a result.

Until he sets out to win games instead of not losing them then we will continue to be mid-table mediocrity or even lower.

Why oh why don't one of the so-called bigger teams take him off our hands? Because he isn't much good is the answer.
Andy Crooks
33   Posted 25/04/2011 at 18:06:11

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I honestly don't know why I am accused of negativity. There are those who cannot consider a fault with him, those who give him no credit... and those who ? and I'd like to include myself in this ? try to take a balanced view.

Ryan, I make no apology for my faith in Shane Duffy, he will be a top notch player.

David Booth
34   Posted 25/04/2011 at 18:07:11

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Yet another dastardly example of why Moyes should be sacked eh? Football manager on TV football programme ? what a heinous crime.

Heaven forbid he should fancy doing some gardening, or washing his car in the next few days.

Is there no stick the usual suspects will not try and beat him with on here?

We were four minutes from becoming only the second team to take a point off the Mancs at their place for the whole of the season for goodness' sake.

Sadly, despite the fact we were neither overawed or humiliatingly outplayed, we failed by showing them too much respect.

But to question the validity of Moyes's appearance on MotD2 is ridiculous.
Ryan Holroyd
35   Posted 25/04/2011 at 18:26:22

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I hope you're right about Duffy. But to say he is our biggest asset when we could sell Felli or Rodwell for £20 million each is ludicrous.

Who cares if Moyes was on MotD2? He did some work for the BBC last summer at the World Cup? Should he not have done that? What should he do on his holidays this year?

Tony J Williams
36   Posted 25/04/2011 at 18:45:38

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Apparently Ryan, posters who can't see Moyes for the charlatan he really is have IQ's under 30.
Brian Lawlor
37   Posted 25/04/2011 at 18:47:43

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Andy - give up your season ticket if you feel that that strongly?

This post suggests you've got too much time on your hands. That's what Facemong is for.
Andy Crooks
38   Posted 25/04/2011 at 18:48:28

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Ryan, he shouldn't have been working for the BBC at the World Cup, he should have been working for Everton. Is he paid so little that some moonlighting is required? He should have been dealing with a problem that he openly admits baffles him; our annual appalling start.
He actually said on MotD, that last summer he tried something different. What was that,then?
Jeff Armstrong
39   Posted 25/04/2011 at 18:38:15

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The problem is not that he went on MotD2; the problem is what was said while on the show.

He was fawned over and feted by both Murray and Dixon as a great manager!! He thought we where unlucky at Old Trafford when in fact we where shit, again. He thought Sturridge has done well at Bolton, correct... but why has he not done well at Everton? Because Moyes did not force the issue with the board and go out and get him, even on a short term loan.

I think his appearance last night was a good insight as to why we are where we are, and will not go any further with the current manager.

Andy Crooks
40   Posted 25/04/2011 at 18:53:57

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Brian, you know quite well that I live in Ireland and don't have a season ticket. You also know that it is my view that season ticket holders see more and have a greater affinity with the team. My post was based on what I saw last night.
Mark Dunford
41   Posted 25/04/2011 at 19:00:39

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We were beaten 1-0 by champions who've won 16 out of 17 home fixtures and the day after our manager appears on MotD2 as a credible pundit. Not sure what the fuss is about. Are you all mindlessly bored?

Start of the season was dreadful, we've consistently thrown away points when we've failed to score enough goals to beat second-rate teams ? even recently in games like Birmingham ? and the squad remains too small. All of these things need to be tackled. Even if they are, chances are we'll lose at OT next year when Moyes will still be in charge.

Andrew Gilbert
42   Posted 25/04/2011 at 19:26:39

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Somewhere in BBC land there is a tape that contains what Moyes said whilst watching the game in the studio.

If we could hear that tape, it may answer a few questions we may have asked in the past!

Eugene Ruane
43   Posted 25/04/2011 at 19:25:48

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I don't mind him being on MotD2.

I also think he has been hampered by a lack of money ? a result of us having a piss-poor chairman and an inept 'board'.

I think as a man, he's trustworthy and honest and possesses many of the qualities we look for in friends, business-partners etc.

I think he has done his very best.

I've always liked 'the man'.

However I'd love to see the back of him asap, as I believe his tactics are obvious, stale and I (honestly) think he can now only take us backwards (hope that's considered balanced).
Sam Morrison
44   Posted 25/04/2011 at 20:08:43

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Andy, you are accused of negativity in this instance because it seems petty. Please don't repeat the myth that people can't criticise Moyes, because they do on here all the time, and I'm one of them. But criticising selection and tactics is one thing, and picking holes in the man for going on a high-profile football ? football! ? show is quite another.

If he was on Strictly, then fair enough. Though I'd pay to see that myself.
Iain Love
45   Posted 25/04/2011 at 20:09:23

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Skim-read most of the comments as it's a long list, so forgive me if I repeat others posts.... Moyes went on MotD2 ? AND???

He's a normal bloke not a fucking saint, he came across ok and why shouldn't he?

I think he does a good job... he'll never do a great job because of the financial restrictions placed upon him. He's obviously good at people management [ not great but good), can spot a bargain, and is tactically poor.

The expectations are foolish and would lead us down the same road as Leeds. Give him money to spend (£450 mill City have spent) then judge him harshly if he fucks up. But otherwise, lay off him.
Martin Paice
46   Posted 25/04/2011 at 20:16:35

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Heaven forbid the manager of our club might go on a programme shown around the world promoting Everton FC.

We moan when we're shown last and now we moan that someone who's well respected in the game (like him or loathe him as a toffee) is on there promoting the club.

For fuck's sake.

Finish off your easter egg and chill the fuck out.
Chris James
47   Posted 25/04/2011 at 20:12:12

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[Sigh] And yet another new low for pointless negative sniping on Toffeewhinge...

Our manager, in his own time, appears on the UK's biggest TV football show as a guest/pundit... and your problem is?

Quite apart from the fact that managers of all clubs are encouraged to engage with the media (indeed contracted to do so on one level), surely this sort of activity can only contribute to raising the club's profile as well as his own.

What is the matter with you people, really?
Gareth Humphreys
48   Posted 25/04/2011 at 20:16:58

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Eugene, I think it is balanced however the stale tactics to which you refer are only ever bettered by teams with bucket loads of money. The only teams to have finished above us since 05-06 are all the uber rich and Villa. Once. By your own admission he is hampered by a lack of funds so he can't really do more than that can he?
Dave Wilson
49   Posted 25/04/2011 at 20:32:52

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Moyes tactics are stale and predictable. Ok Ancellotti can't beat him and Mancini and Redknapp, are continually having their arses kicked by him... and even if he did Dump SAF in the cup semi and absolutley twatted him last season and drew against him this.

The FACT is, he couldn't even take a makeshift side and do what no other team has done this season... so there's your proof.
Andy Crooks
50   Posted 25/04/2011 at 20:39:59

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Chris, David Moyes, as I said, acquitted himself well and, in doing so, raised his own profile. In what way did Everton benefit? Why do other managers not do it? Fair enough, he's looking to the future but let's recognize that.
Andy Crooks
51   Posted 25/04/2011 at 20:46:39

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Dave, as I said on other threads we went to Old Trafford and did what injuries forced us to. It was a poor performance but as I also said in my view it wasn't due to lack of effort. The point of my post was David Moyes doing MotD while other managers don't... Not, I hope, negative sniping.
Dave Wilson
52   Posted 25/04/2011 at 21:00:48

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I agree with your point about him doing MotD.
Martin Mason
53   Posted 25/04/2011 at 21:33:03

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It would really be good for once if people on here could understand that Everton don't just act like a mid-table side, we ARE a mid- to low-table side. Everton FC has no right to dine at the top table.
Sean McCarthy
54   Posted 25/04/2011 at 22:41:27

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This post tops the lot!!
I sometimes log on here and wonder what the moan of the day is going to be. I even try to guess it before logging on and amaze myself by sometimes getting it right. But this?? We've reached new levels as we bitch about our manager having the cheek to be a guest of the BBC!!! Fuck off and get a fucking life!!!
William Fletcher
55   Posted 25/04/2011 at 23:20:46

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Sean, well said.
Andy Crooks
56   Posted 25/04/2011 at 23:21:02

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Sean, David Moyes and his advisers played a blinder when they landed him his huge contract. His career is at a crossroads and I don't think he will tolerate another close season without funds. For a manager to appear as a guest on MotD2 other than a post match interview is highly unusual.

His profile will increase over the coming months and he'll go if the right job comes up. Whatever one's view of him, he has been badly let down by the board.

David Booth
57   Posted 26/04/2011 at 01:52:40

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Andy: you're a mile off the mark with such meaningless and irrelevant finger-pointing. Once again, have you nothing good to say? This thread is pointless.

Ironically, I'm making things worse by even contributing to this ridiculous thread, but to echo the sentiments of so many above: surgically remove yourself from your computer, put your internet warrior cape back in the wardrobe, get some fresh air (together with a fresh perspective) and come back another day with something relevant and patently less gratuitous please.
Trevor Mackie
58   Posted 26/04/2011 at 09:59:52

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I didn't watch it but "TV sofa punditry" is barely disguised self-advertising, perhaps a prelude to a permanent berth upon the gravy-train marked "101 banal comments" so required of today's media non-entities.

Alternatively he might have arranged for Houlier's Warfarin tablets to be swapped for "smarties" and be eyeing up the Villa.
Andy Crooks
59   Posted 26/04/2011 at 12:08:50

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Ouch! David ? I've had many a put down but fair play, that was a belter. Incidentally, have you been in communication with my missus? You seem to echo many of her views on me.
David Booth
60   Posted 26/04/2011 at 12:15:49

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Andy: does she keep nagging you to go out?

For once in her life, she's probably right!

Credit to you for taking it in the spirit in which it was intended by the way, but come on, give Moysie a break ? it was only a few soundbites on TV on a Sunday night...

It doesn't indicate he's neglecting his responsibilities, blatantly job-seeking, shirking responsibility or shamelessly massaging his ego.

I like the guy, admire his honesty and integrity and think that appearances such as Sunday's give Everton some real presence and kudos.
Daniel A Johnson
61   Posted 26/04/2011 at 12:22:24

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Moyes has a good relationship with the BBC.

It was quite nice having Everton and Moyes thrust into the faces of fellow watchers. He came across very well and also talks the game very well...


Tony J Williams
62   Posted 26/04/2011 at 13:02:31

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Daniel, what is defensive about screaming at your back four to move up the pitch when it is 0-0? This is probably the plan Hibbert was talking about, defend higher up and try and go for it. Unfortunately this was defeated by Man U being a far better team than we are.

Don't just take my word for it, watch the match reporting by Sky and listen out for Hartson commenting on it.
Michael Brien
63   Posted 26/04/2011 at 13:08:10

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Yes David Moyes came across very well but it was hardly "Question Time" was it? Colin Murray asked some interesting questions, but nothing really controversial.

Now, before I upset anyone in the "pro David Moyes" camp, can I suggest that ? rather than there being a pro-Moyes camp and an anti-Moyes brigade ? there is also a third camp/opinion/viewpoint? It's one that I subscribe to...

It's the "Frustrated with David Moyes" viewpoint. Why frustrated? ? Well, I will accept that there are times when we need to adopt a cautious approach (4-5-1) but I do not accept that we should play that way all the time. It was pointed out that West Ham played more open and attacking at Chelsea. Yes, they lost 0-3 - but 2 of the Chelsea goals came in the last 5 minutes. West Ham missed several chances and in my opinion if they tried to play a cautious game they would most probably have shipped even more goals and created no chances. Interestingly enough Sunderland went to Stamford Bridge earlier in the season and didn't shut up shop ? they attacked Chelsea and came away with a 3-0 win.

We could have really had more of a go at Old Trafford. As regards our poor strikers, I think that they are better than some of us give them credit. Beckford only has to have a bad game and he gets public criticism from his manager. Other players such as Tim Howard and Jags have both had their off days but get backed to the hilt by their manager. Our strikers have hardly had the same encouragement from their manager.

There is a time to be cautious and a time to be brave. Unfortunately David Moyes tends to adopt cautious tactics 95% of the time. (If he was a cricketer I think he would be Geoff Boycott.) Let's have more "Braveheart" from him and less "Cautiousheart"... As the great philosopher Mr Trotter once said ? "He who dares, wins."
Tony J Williams
64   Posted 26/04/2011 at 15:02:50

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Michael, I am already in the "frustrated with David Moyes" camp but in this camp I also include the players, who seemingly have a free ride with many in the anti-Moyes camp.
David Booth
65   Posted 26/04/2011 at 15:35:36

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Tony: so true. Apart from one of two of them being regularly hung, drawn and quartered on here, it's never their fault.

Indeed, Premier League (hate that term) footballers as a group are never to blame for anything are they ? on or off the field?

Personally I think we need more of the likes of Heitinga in our team and Cahill: proven winners who don't give a shit for the reputation of the team we're up against.

We're just too nice to be successful right now.

So, apart from a quality striker, I'd really like to see Johnny back in the side at centre-half next year, alongside Jagielka (despite Distin taking us all by surprise this season).

Indeed, when you think about it, how can a Holland regular not be one of the first to be pencilled in on the teamsheet every week?

Favourites out... winners in... is what we desperately need.
Andy Crooks
66   Posted 26/04/2011 at 17:17:03

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David, I've just been for some air. Actually my wife differed from you slightly: you said I should be surgically removed from the computer. She said that If I didn't cut the grass, the computer would have to be surgically removed from me.

Anyway, your last post is interesting. I have always defended the players totally but now I am having some doubts. Essentially this site is about debate and if it is proper debate then one must have an open mind. It seemed to me that Moyes was urging his players forward. Could it be that THE PLAYERS and not the coach are frightened of Man U? Amazing what hard labour in the garden does.

David Booth
67   Posted 26/04/2011 at 20:31:47

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Andy: without going too far off topic here, I intended to post a thread in the next day or so along those lines.

I genuinely thought that, with my envisaged first eleven team sheet of:

Coleman, Jagielka, Heitinga, Baines
Arteta, Fellaini, Rodwell, Pienaar
Cahill, Saha

...with a subs bench comprising Mucha, Hibbert, Neville, Distin, Osman, Bilyaletdinov & Beckford ... that we would be genuine outside title contenders this season. Even now, I believe we SHOULD have been.

But the die was cast from the Blackburn opener, wasn't it? I was assured, as I was when I got my first season ticket as a college kid, that we'd genuinely coast to at least a 3-0 victory and apart from a hiccup or two against the 'top' sides, would be by far the best of the rest.

The reality was that, if one or two key results had gone the wrong way at the wrong time, we would have been locked in the bottom three ? and real relegation prospects.

But just as disappointing as the way our season has panned out is the over-zealous ? and to my mind hugely inappropriate ? criticism of David Moyes. Many on here are convinced it has been his fault and no-one else's.

True, he is culpable thanks to bouts of stupefying stubbornness: persisting with a hopelessly out-of-form Arteta, sticking doggedly to a 4-5-1 formation, persistently playing people such as Heitinga & Bilyaletdinov out of position and ignoring obvious changes that everyone but him could see needed urgently making.

However, I think he has done a great job on limited resources and is steadily learning, improving and building a consistently better team. Progress is not as rapid as some might wish, but we are a club not to be taken lightly now ?something we haven't been (apart from a glorious few months under Joe Royle), for 25 years. That, surely, is worthy of our admiration?

Where I think the problem lies is amongst the players.

True, we can scrap for 90 minutes, play some neat passing football and have some impressive names on a full-strength team sheet. However, there is still a painful lack of movement when we get the ball around the opposition box. Old Trafford was a painful example. But we CAN pass and move in match-winning style, as demonstrated by all three goals at Wolves.

Equally importantly, there's no real fight ? or fighters ? in the team. Like I said earlier, we're far too 'nice'. We lack aggression and arrogance, which is why players like Heitinga are so important. And alongside those qualities, we have got to develop greater consistency and a collective winning confidence.

Our current Jekyll and Hyde nature is so frustrating. And that's where the players have got to meet Moyes half way and give him back what he puts in.

It's been commonly reported in here ? and was much in evidence in Saturday's game ? that Moyes constantly urges the team forward. Is it THEY, not him, that hesitate, pass sideways, back pedal and fail to deliver.

Manchester United are never to be underrated, but our players showed them far too much respect: Osman constantly allowing himself to be bundled over; Coleman was anonymously ineffective by playing almost in centre midfield; there was no support or proper service for Beckford; Bilyaletdinov looked as if he was playing with his boots on the wrong feet; and Rodwell stolled around at jogging pace like a Sunday football Zidane.

They have got to have a long, hard look at themselves and realise how badly they have failed to deliver this season, despite partially redeeming themselves recently.
Col Noon
68   Posted 26/04/2011 at 22:50:04

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Andy -- The rotten tactics and at times ungodly football that has been produced this season has knocked me sick to the stomach. The fact that, with no more money to spend to improve this, and a possible mass exodus looming, we already have enough to worry about. Moyes going on MotD2 really is so irrelevant it's untrue.

I am not thrilled with Moyes either but FFS, get a grip.
Matthew Mackey
69   Posted 27/04/2011 at 11:17:04

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There seems to be no pleasing some Evertonians. First we complain when we don't get media coverage, then we complain when we do. Moyes did well on MotD2 and, as some have said already, he acquitted himself well. MotD2 always gives Everton more respect than MotD with that smug, toss-pot Lineker who still appears to hold a grudge against us.

Also, we lost 1-0 away at Manure. Shock, horror! They have (I believe) won their last 13 home PL games are are on the verge of another PL crown. We turned up with a threadbare, injury-ravaged squad and got battered (urrr)... 1-0.

I really don't give a shit if some fans out there think Moyes got it all wrong again bla bla bla (yawn). I for one think we acquitted ourselves well under the circumstances and had Distin not made a small mistake (played well apart from that), we may have come away with a commendable draw. Yes, it would have been nice to have beaten them, but let's get a sense of perspective here: I for one am more concerned with how we will do against Wigan next weekend and then WBA and West Ham ? all winnable games that should be won.

James Flynn
70   Posted 27/04/2011 at 22:19:49

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Dave (49) - Forgive the redundancy, but thanks again.
Art Jones
71   Posted 28/04/2011 at 14:31:33

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I think Utd's performance against Shalke demonstrated how well they are playing and how confident they are.

Moyes hasn't tried to hide from the fact that we should have been able to attack them more but in some circumstances it just isn't possible. If we played the same with Arteta, Fellaini and Saha in the team then it would have been time to give him some of the undeserved stick he's been getting.

I just hope the day is a long way off when many will realise exactly how good he really is when he gets to play the game on a level playing field with other bosses whose board have a realistic amount of ambition. I cannot see that happening here for a long time... maybe Spurs, Villa or even Sunderland will give him that opportunity? That's where the problem lies!

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