I have posted elsewhere an idea that I would like to float through the fan Article facility. Who knows whether David Moyes will continue to see his immediate and longer term future at Everton? It depends on so many factors that one could debate them forever.
Without doubt he has done a remarkable job at Everton in many aspects of management etc. There is much debate now as to whether or not he has reached a crossroads both in terms of his own managerial aspirations and the current complex financial uncertainty at the club etc.
Much debate revolves around who would replace him if he left. Obviously, who that person might be is determined by the ability of the club to resolve the many factors that may contribute to David Moyes leaving in the first place! Much talk then tends to focus on current managers and who Everton might try and entice to the club.
One post on the site raises the issue of Moyes going to Man Utd ? which I think would be highly unlikely as there would appear to be nothing in his career so far to suggest that he is ready to take over the most successful club in the last 20 years in England and perhaps one of the biggest brands in European and world football.
But I would like to suggest that the managerial link with Man Utd may not rest exclusively with Ferguson and Moyes. If Everton could get their house in order and put together a package both financial, and regarding the longer-term stability of the club, then I would suggest that they could do worse than take a chance on trying to entice Ryan Giggs to undertake his managerial and coaching aspirations with Everton.
Here is a young man with unparalleled credibility within the game; enormously successful over many years; winner of every honour in the game; the recipient of whatever insights Ferguson's managerial career may have given him and desirous of continuing his football career in coaching and management. If he could be enticed to enter that new phase at Everton, it could well be that he would bring a stature to the role that would perhaps bring a creative approach to the requirements of the first team that Evertonians of all ages have long craved - some of us longer than most!
Not only would that stature perhaps not tolerate some of the appalling levels of inability anbd lack of application evident in some elements of the current squad but it would also perhaps be such that it would attract aspirational players ? and the more established ? to consider a future at a newly invigorated Everton.
All this assumes that Everton get their commercial and ethical acts together. While in no way wanting Everton to "sell their soul" to the nearest "billionaire devil" in order to bring about a more optimistic future, nevertheless, if they could but bring about more stable conditions in an ethical manner, then I do think that a venture such as this could help breath new life into what at times appears to be a somewhat moribund enterprise. Just an idea.
Anthony Lamb, Posted 29/04/2011 at 20:55:17
Note: the following content is not moderated or vetted by the site owners at the time of submission. Comments are the responsibility of the poster. Disclaimer
1 Posted 30/04/2011 at 07:46:25
1. I think Moyes will stay and I would welcome that.
2. Agree that Giggs is one of the best players ever but I have grave doubts about his ability to manage. Wrong character traits. To quiet.
2 Posted 30/04/2011 at 08:11:19
Giggs - nice idea, but coming from a great career to a club with no money and he with no management experience smacks of Bobby Charlton failking at Preston.
If Moyes left - then I hope it's O'Neill.
3 Posted 30/04/2011 at 07:58:53
Or maybe that was just a dream I had....
4 Posted 30/04/2011 at 07:54:04
When talking to other supporters they say who else then,my answer is anyone( although I do have my own favourites ,coyle Being one growning on me,what would he do with a squad like ours). Its not just moyes( dithering Dave) kenwright and his backers too must go.the pair are holding us back no ambition,no money and no idea.
But like most, I will be there next season expecting us to be back up there fighting for the title.
Ps managers who have managed us for over 100 games who has worst record?
5 Posted 30/04/2011 at 08:20:41
If Moyes stays then the club needs to support him. I do not think this means we need to go out and spend mega-millions but we must be prepared to pay wages comparable to other big clubs or we will continue to lose our best players. We may still need someone with financial clout to achieve this. As regards Moyes successor why not groom Phil Neville over the next couple of seasons.
6 Posted 30/04/2011 at 07:51:35
With Bill's greatest asset in keeping his 'train set' gone, the pressure on him would be enormous. Now I don't like Bill, and IF Moyes was to go I reckon you will see the likes of your Doddys et al buying an amber and blue scarf, or whatever, and voicing their concerns about the running of the club, and joining the inevitable protests.
I don't have a massive problem with Moyes, I just think he's reached the end of his time with us - its all a bit stale. But lets be honest, Moyes isn't the greatest manager in the world. He's not the best in England. He's not even the best in Liverpool!!! If he left it wouldn't be the end of the world...it could just be the start of a new one.
7 Posted 30/04/2011 at 08:57:02
I too think MOyes has done all he can at Everton.
The club is stale, its like a marriage gone wrong with both parties knowing that its over but staying together for the sake of the kids.
Moyes grow some balls and do one of two things,
1 Insist on Billy Bullshit coming clean and acknowledging that he has no intention of selling the club and tell to get investment to back you or you walk.
2. Walk because Billy Bullshit has no intention of doing the above.
As for who would take over I don't think any decent manager after speaking with Bullshit Billy would take the job.
We could end up with with another Yes Man but can you see any experienced Premier League Manager agreeing to work with the constraints put on him by this joke of a board.
We could end up with the likes of McClaren or Southgate who will most likely do anything to get back onto the premiership gravy train.
8 Posted 30/04/2011 at 09:37:20
9 Posted 30/04/2011 at 10:19:22
Explain "alleged" please
10 Posted 30/04/2011 at 10:27:12
11 Posted 30/04/2011 at 11:08:57
O'Neill? It would be a grave day if he ever got the job; in the event of Moyes going.
Although I can't really see Moyes leaving at all.
12 Posted 30/04/2011 at 11:34:20
13 Posted 30/04/2011 at 10:55:53
Not so sure about this statement though "lets be honest, Moyes isn't the greatest manager in the world. He's not the best in England. He's not even the best in Liverpool!!! If he left it wouldn't be the end of the world...it could just be the start of a new one."
True, can't argue against most of that, he's not the best in the world or in England, but woulod any of the managers considered better come to Everton if he left. Reallistically? No, they wouldn't, and personally I see Coyle as another Moyes, just like many of the others who would be candidates for the job.
I guess some fans are more prepared to take the gamble than others.
14 Posted 30/04/2011 at 11:41:21
15 Posted 30/04/2011 at 11:44:16
Ryan Giggs FFS.
It's so ridiculous I find myself having to agree with Doddy!!
16 Posted 30/04/2011 at 11:54:01
17 Posted 30/04/2011 at 12:29:24
WE DO NOT HAVE ANY MONEY. WE DO NOT MAKE ENOUGH MONEY. YOU CAN'T SPEND MONEY YOU HAVE NOT GOT.
All this bullish, macho crap that Moyes should walk if BK doesn't give him any money is stupid crap.
Why the hell would you want to walk out on a top Premier League job like Everton if you have nowhere else to go?
Not many teams have money to spend bar 4 or 5 clubs.
Moyes is not going anywhere soon.
18 Posted 30/04/2011 at 13:02:30
19 Posted 30/04/2011 at 13:07:28
20 Posted 30/04/2011 at 13:14:40
21 Posted 30/04/2011 at 13:33:21
I agree with a few posters that say Moyes has gone stale and I agree I think he has taken Everton as far as he can and with BK not spending a penny on the club he won't go any further. I'd go further and say if he does leave I hope he blows the whistle on BK and his board on his way out.
Doddy, WTF are you on about "alleged", as Phil asked please explain and whilst you are at it explain where the KD ringfenced money went, where the Desperation Kirkby money went, how much BK pissed away on DK, where the Pienaar money went, how we couldn't even afford a loan in January, why another mortgage was taken out in December to pay the interest off another mortgage and if we aren't in the shit financially why Keane lookalike Elstone admitted at the fans forum there wouldn't be any money for players in the summer and Moyes would have to buy to sell.
0 out of 10, must try a whole lot harder.
22 Posted 30/04/2011 at 13:40:45
Dream ticket: Boas ? never going to happen.
I'd like to see Lambert from Norwich.
23 Posted 30/04/2011 at 13:53:02
24 Posted 30/04/2011 at 13:53:08
KENWRIGHT: Hello Ryan - fancy a job?
GIGGS: Yeah brill - what is it?
KENWRIGHT: Manage Everton - I'll give you no money for team building, you'll be selling your best player every other season, and every transfer deadline you'll be rumoured to be on the brink of a major signing only for it to not happen... Oh and to not go backwards as a club you'll need to win manager of the year three times and achieve consistent top half of the table finishes with a transfer budget less than an eighths of Liverpool's and less than West Brom, Wigan and Wolves... and Europe would be good
GIGGS - You're pulling my pisser Bill... that's fuckin impossible!
KENWRIGHT - Well David Moyes manages it...
25 Posted 30/04/2011 at 14:30:17
The only thing that's gone stale at Goodison is the air around Kenwright's seat.
Moyes should audition for a leading part in the next Mission Impossible movie.
26 Posted 30/04/2011 at 14:56:39
Had he done this 12 months ago, we'd possibly be in a top four position, and our money troubles would be slightly lessened, thus giving him the opportunity to maybe spend a bit.
As I said, on current performance, have no time for him.
27 Posted 30/04/2011 at 15:53:27
He has got Norwich in with a great chance of promotion, he has European experience, he has won a major competition in his playing career and he is young and hungry!
I don't remember much about him as a player but he seems to be the most highly regarded young manager in the game.
Bit like Moyes was.
28 Posted 30/04/2011 at 17:10:47
29 Posted 30/04/2011 at 17:56:17
30 Posted 30/04/2011 at 18:27:00
31 Posted 30/04/2011 at 18:23:27
First the obvious:
Paul Lambert. He is the flavour of the month, the next big thing, the best young manager in England etc. Obviously very successful where he has been, and play's (relatively) good football with it. However, would he go? Would he want to give up on the Premiership with Norwih and be the villain, or do an Owen Coyle? Also, he has had 2 years of never ending success, which is good, but how will he adapt to inconsistency? Will he sink when a club hits a run of bad form, or will it make him stronger. Some managers never recover after having a period of excellent results change to a period of poor results. He will always be a gamble for this reason, but a worthwhile one.
Second, another big risk.
Yes, that's right. The worst manager in Englands recent history. But, look at Boro after he left, a rather average job with them was made to look like a very good job done with hindsight. Capello, one of the 'worlds best' has hardly made the same England team much better, ok, he qualified for the WC when McClaren failed, but McClaren was up against a very good Croatia while Capello was up against a very poor Croatia with 10 men. He faired very very well in Holland (won the league), and had a tough time in Germany (with a tam struggling to live up to their league title victory 2 seasns previously, and a board and squad of players reminiscent of previous Newcastle teams). He has been worked in Europe for 2 years, thus he will have lots of contacts, knowledge of the young players in those leagues, plus the experience that none of our current staff have i.e. European style football (what many fans seem to crave). He is also available, so no compo to pay, and would probably jump at the chance to join us. For me, he is the man.
O'Neill, unattached; Pellegrini, Malaga; Villas Boas, Porto; Scolari, Palmerias; Coyle, Bolton; Grayson, Leeds; Holloway, Blackpool.
32 Posted 30/04/2011 at 18:44:26
33 Posted 30/04/2011 at 18:51:08
34 Posted 30/04/2011 at 19:19:27
35 Posted 30/04/2011 at 19:54:25
36 Posted 30/04/2011 at 20:03:19
37 Posted 30/04/2011 at 23:13:31
38 Posted 30/04/2011 at 23:22:18
39 Posted 30/04/2011 at 23:42:40
When you take into consideration that 99 per cent of football managers have to survive on far less of the kind of back up assistance that Moyes recieves the question should have been,
who would do a worse job.
Moyes can indulge his coaching fantasies at Finch Farm, a state of the art training facility with its first class medical and coaching staff.
Other managers can only dream of having nine years total control and guaranteed for as long as he wants.
Then he would enjoy the support, indeed, the worship of easily satisfied fans.
Then of course there is the no small matter of a fantastic salary.
IAll that means I am at a total loss as to why Moyes gets so much praise and adulation.
When so many of his peers are working on a smaller shoestring and with far less bac up methinks a reality check is called for..
40 Posted 01/05/2011 at 00:36:48
You must have missed my previous reply to you, which I will reproduce here and await your kind response...
Explain "alleged" please
41 Posted 01/05/2011 at 02:56:20
Strange to think this must be said over and over. We're missing the guy(s) at the top. Nothing else.
42 Posted 01/05/2011 at 04:59:42
The other thing is that, no matter how poor the redshite are, they will almost always finish above a Moyes Everton team.
The only thing Moyes could improve at Everton is the defence as attack-wise the man is clueless.
A reputation as a good manager built on finishing anywhere from sixth to tenth and that's without cup runs apart from the obvious.
Apart from four or five, most of Moyes's 20-man squad could be replaced with better quality for little money.
No manager will have success without taking risks or a gamble from time to time; Moyes plays it safe and we're stuck with him.
43 Posted 01/05/2011 at 05:55:07
Almost fucking anybody... up to and including me and or Ryan Giggs.
And no doubt Giggs is a model professional, won shit loads, skillful player, etc etc. So was Bobby Charlton, but big yard dog brother Jack did more as a manager. So where does that leave us?
Paisley and SAF were both rip shit and bust, no frills, solid brick outhouse, winghalf and forward respectively.
From that, ideal candidates from the past player ranks would be David Unsworth, add a Man U connection and we get Pip who, for all we know, might be a Billy Elliot diamond in the rough.
On a lighter note, I would work for a lot cheaper than any of them. Put it into perspective, £65k per WEEK!.... I would love £65k per YEAR.
44 Posted 01/05/2011 at 07:16:46
Come on chaps, you should know by and now (and I'm sure you do) that Doddy only ever makes statements on TW or bizarre soundbites
He NEVER answers questions.
I think I've asked him 3 or 4 times this year to explain a few points in "a little" more detail with Zippo response.
45 Posted 01/05/2011 at 08:29:41
46 Posted 01/05/2011 at 09:42:26
People will say he is a cock, but he the type of bloke you hate when against you but will love if he was yours.
47 Posted 01/05/2011 at 09:58:09
48 Posted 01/05/2011 at 10:08:15
Although finance can make a difference, in the right managers hands it is no guarantee. It's doubtful if Moyes had a unlimited budget for players that his teams would play any different.
The only players Moyes has had to sell are Rooney who, young or not, was not even a regular starter under Moyes, and Lescott who he received top dollar for.
If Moyes had a team full of the world's best players, he would probably still send his team out to get a 1-0 lead and defend it.
I don't doubt Moyes has done a decent job but if the aim is to finish top ten and is accepted by the club and fans as success then it's difficult to see how we will ever challenge again.
The team badly lacks pace in the forward areas and we have very few players who can go past a man without even thinking which should be second nature for any attacking midfielders or strikers regardless of cost.
49 Posted 01/05/2011 at 11:26:52
50 Posted 01/05/2011 at 12:03:16
51 Posted 01/05/2011 at 12:23:11
It lacks pace because the good fast player are worth a fortune and we can't affofd them, players who stroll past the opposition are worth a fortune and we can't affofd them. You see where I am going.
Moyes is a limited manager is tactics/skill but more importantly in finances.
I return to my normal standpoint, in that we moan as how shit our players are but then act all aggrieved when Moyes can't make this shite team beat all those before us. It just doesn't make any kind of sense.
52 Posted 01/05/2011 at 13:27:03
Even if he were to sell our big name players i.e Mikey, Fellaini, Bainesey, Rodwell etc to pay off the debt, replace them with bargain buys from lower leagues and misfits from abroad who develop into Premier League stars, we would still face the same problems again a few years down the line.
It's all very well buying unknowns for a cheap price and tuning them into stars. Once the time comes for them to sign their second contract with us, their stock has risen and, instead of being paid £15k to £20k a week, all of a sudden they are worth £60k to £80k a week. The club cant afford to pay wages at this level and then we face the situation of having to sell or letting them go for a Bosman free and we are back to where we started again.
Unless we get investment, top 8 is the limit to what we can achieve consistently regardless of whoever runs the team.
53 Posted 01/05/2011 at 13:54:00
Moyes would suggest him also, he has all his coaching badges and he is according to Moyes a "Winner".
But the thought of P Neville managing us makes me shit bricks, I shudder at the prospect...
I would like Neil Warnock: top bloke, plays good attacking football, and deserves a shot at a big club. I also think that Steve McClaren, with his Man Utd, international, Dutch League, and Bundesliga experience, would do a good job for us.
54 Posted 01/05/2011 at 14:00:13
No one can honestly say moyes has done a decent job this season.
55 Posted 01/05/2011 at 14:07:32
I'm sick of "well, who could do better?" Who knows... but something has to change and fast. As my mate said to me yesterday (who is a Norwich fan), "God, you lot are grim to watch" and I couldn't agree more. I used to defend Moyes but I can't now.
56 Posted 01/05/2011 at 13:34:30
I expect the usual pathetic moans about Blue Bill etc, etc no money etc etc but that does not disguise the fact that Moyes was given money enough to buy a trio of the best goalscorers in English football. A short time under Moyes was enough to send their careers plummeting.
I reckon He has a bloody nerve to foist the likes of Beckford and Anichebe on fans who pay good money to watch proper footballers.
57 Posted 01/05/2011 at 14:32:10
However I have started considering for some time whether Phil Neville will be the next manager. Neville has clearly been getting his Uefa coaching badges. I remember seeing him photographed in the papers last year speaking to Mourinho when Inter visited Man Utd in the Champions League. He was believed to be networking within the game and researching the role.
Phil has been employed in the media working for BBC Radio 5live and also on Sky. I believe Phil is leaving no stone unturned in his pursuit to be a manager and I think he will get that opportunity at Everton.
Whether Moyes will go in the summer is clearly being debated. Even supporters of Moyes (incidentally, I am) should admit this season has seen massive underachievement. Ironically we may finish higher in the league this season than last, yet I have never been more pessimistic about Everton's future.
If and when Moyes goes, like Walter Smith, he will be asked for his views on his successor. I think he will point towards Neville. Kenwright may be sold on the idea as he will be cheap and won't have to negotiate with anyone outside the club.
Now whether Neville would make a good Everton manager is a different interesting argument but don't be surprised to see him appointed player coach or similar role in the next 18 months as he is groomed as successor.
58 Posted 01/05/2011 at 17:09:05
Every time he has bought a forward for decent money, he has performed well in their fist season then not been able to carry on with that form. Is that the manager's fault or the player's? I think it's both but obviously with your views on Moyes, I know where you will solely lay the blame.
59 Posted 01/05/2011 at 17:24:22
60 Posted 01/05/2011 at 17:43:02
61 Posted 01/05/2011 at 17:59:44
Paul Lambert ? good young manager but a serious risk.
Owen Coyle ? plays good football, probably loathe to leave Bolton.
Martin O'Neill ? left Villa because hands were tied in transfer market, can't see that changing with us.
Neil Warnock ? not leaving QPR and a journeyman manager at best.
All-in-all, I can't see someone who would definitely make a positive change. And with our resources, I honestly don't believe many people could do better than Moyes has done.
One interesting candidate might be Mourinho...he has always spoken of taking a 'legacy' club. A team that is not at the top but that needs building up over a long period.... why not us, Jose? Though no doubt the ToffeeWeb cynics will be complaining about you defensive mentality before too long!!
62 Posted 01/05/2011 at 18:33:21
After the last couple of games, if Man Utd still want to offer us £25 mill for Rodwell, snap their bloody hands off!
I'd rather keep Fellaini who has started making noises that he wants to stay. As a word of warning to those wantaways, the grass is vary rarely greener... Does anybody remember that little African midfielder we had called Stevie something or other? Went to Spurs... I think he works at the drive through MacD's on Queens Drive now!
63 Posted 01/05/2011 at 19:14:24
Poyet is doing a great job at Brighton.
Eddie Howe could be worth a look.
Dave Jones has been consistent at Cardiff and was doing well at Southampton before they fucked him over.
Phil Neville would be the easy choice for the board and his leadership skills are certainly not in question.
If none of them would come then I would do it for a not to inconsiderable sum. Then there is always the milkman!.
64 Posted 01/05/2011 at 19:19:46
65 Posted 01/05/2011 at 19:30:58
You guys astound me, you say you "WILL NOT" settle for mediocrity then call for a manager who has never even achieved that . . .Neil Warnock ? ? ? . . Mr relegation ?
Given how desperate some of you are to get rid of Moyes, you`d think that between the lot of you, somebody would have come up with a manager who has actually managed to finish above him.
66 Posted 01/05/2011 at 19:59:17
But look at the names you put forward ffs ?
Is it any wonder most people dont want to trust your judgement ?
67 Posted 01/05/2011 at 20:08:04
68 Posted 01/05/2011 at 20:13:12
Who would I love to take over if Moyes left? That mad German genius Jurgen Klopp. He's just led an unheralded and unfancied Dortmund to the Bundesliga title, with a team made up of young academy products and bargain buys. I think he may actually be clinically insane the way he charges up and down the touchline, regularly getting into rucks with the fourth official and winding up the opposition but he is hugely entertaining. More importantly, his team always plays adventurous, attacking football and he's tactically light years ahead of Moyes, Hughes, O'Neil, Bruce and their boring safety first ilk. It'll never fucking happen like...
69 Posted 01/05/2011 at 21:13:00
70 Posted 01/05/2011 at 21:34:05
What about Pulis? He has done a great job there and they don't just hoof the ball, that's lazy journalism.
71 Posted 01/05/2011 at 21:28:17
For goodness sake don't be telling people on here success is possible by force of character and ability you'll get hung.
Young unknowns playing great football???
Winning the Title in Germany - not Bayern wtf???
Doesn't this crazy german guy know it's not possible???
Doesn't he know the game has changed???
It's bloody heresy, that's what it is - he should be burned at the stake.
72 Posted 01/05/2011 at 22:06:57
Liverpool now has a decent board and went out and spent £50 million on Suarez and Carroll.
Who has Moyes got? ? Anichebe and Beckford.
Let's see how Paul Lambert does in the Premier League next season but IMO nobody can touch Moyes pedigree for what he has had to spend.
Yes this season has been utter shite and next season will be even worse unless Kenwright does one.
The Premier League is now all about money, commercialism and power and we dont have anyone with a clue how to run a club.
73 Posted 01/05/2011 at 22:51:27
74 Posted 01/05/2011 at 23:16:02
75 Posted 01/05/2011 at 23:18:29
Especially comical is the idea that not having finished above Moyes in the league might preclude somebody from the job. After all, I don't recall Howard Kendall finishing above Gordon Lee prior to being appointed, or indeed Moyes ever finishing above Walter Smith. Perhaps there's only one thing for it ? if Moyes ever leaves we'll just have to replace him with ...... David Moyes!
76 Posted 01/05/2011 at 23:45:38
Although finance can make a difference, in the right managers hands it is no guarantee. It's doubtful if Moyes had a unlimited budget for players that his teams would play any different"
Karl, exactly. Your first paragraph is what makes Moyes such a good manager, your second resorts to making up counter-factual hypotheticals.
As I've said before, thank God money isn't the only deciding factor in football, because if it was, we'd be in the bottom half of the table every year. As it is we've got an excellent manager who consistently over-achieves to the point where he's raised your expectations so much you don't even appreciate how well he has to do just to stand still while the likes of Stoke, Sunderland, Fulham and Bolton outspend him in the transfer market.
77 Posted 01/05/2011 at 23:54:43
Different names come up all the time, in about November it was Holloway and Di Matteo, right now its Lambert and even Martinez. Moyes consistently outperforms all other managers except some of those with much bigger budgets than him. Moyes finishes best of the rest pretty much every season, and that's the best Everton can reasonably expect at the moment. There's no evidence to suggest that any other manager could bridge the gap that Moyes has failed to bridge, and plenty of reason to believe that any given manager would fail to match what Moyes has done and end up dropping us back into 'the pack' alongside all the others.
78 Posted 02/05/2011 at 00:14:05
I have to ask - what is your point? Your second paragraph is a marvellous commendation of Moyes performance as manager, but it's rather irrelevant to the debate as to who might be appointed if he leaves. Unless you really are suggesting that Moyes should somehow be his own replacement when he leaves ??!
79 Posted 02/05/2011 at 01:03:17
I don't have a problem if another manager comes in and magically takes us up into the higher echelons of the league but it's the usual names getting bandied about when we have our bad run but they always finish below us. How is that proving they can do a better job than Moyes?
For fecks sake we even have a poster saying he would rather have Giggs, as manager.....because...ermm...ermm...his record is fecken brilliant as a manager isn't it?
80 Posted 02/05/2011 at 01:16:24
81 Posted 02/05/2011 at 01:32:03
I am more than open to a better manager taking over but it's the preferred weapon of choice for posters who don't like Moyes to offer names that are simply just laughable. Hollaway, yeah get him on board, he's a bit of a laugh and plays all out attacking footy, it doesn't matter that they could still be relegated. Martinez, fantastic, nothing says "I am a winner" than getting your side relegated.
82 Posted 02/05/2011 at 01:27:16
There have been too many negatives to outweigh the postives. 11 wins so far from 35 league games ? that may be fine for less prestigious clubs but not Everton. Bolton are two points below us, Fulham three, Stoke five (and they are in the FA Cup final). Liverpool (who were meant to be having a nightmare season) are 7 points above us with a 10 goal advantage.
We are 14 points from 4th place which is the same difference between us in 7th and Wolves in 19th. So if Moyes is doing such a great job, raising our expectations, with little or no money, with a small squad and injuries and with the clubs ahead of us better financed then why do the tactics and general play have to be so dull and predictable?
So few of our players can pick out a pass at normal pace and even when they have time on the ball often can't control the ball properly and don't move intelligently off the ball. These should be fundamentals at this level. Just watch most average European teams and they can control a ball, pass to a team mate and move into space.
We lack creativity in most areas and as Moyes has signed most of the players either his team are at fault or his tactics. A great coach can make average players better ? we just seem to have too many average players who are stagnating...
83 Posted 02/05/2011 at 01:41:12
We can only hope the Board would make the right choice, but who can honestly say that Moyes's previous record had them hoping he would be selected as Smith's successor? Back then he was just a promising young manager that the Board took a bit of a gamble on ? I doubt they envisioned he would have us finishing as high as 4th in only his third full season in charge.
Personally, I've always been biased towards the appointment of former Everton players to the manager's post, but there aren't too many doing a decent managerial job at the moment. Mind you, that may change by the time Moyes does eventually leave, as I can't see him departing anytime soon.
84 Posted 02/05/2011 at 02:13:42
He's unemployed and lives local so BK should be able to throw in a Merseyrail pass as part of the deal?
85 Posted 02/05/2011 at 02:22:55
86 Posted 02/05/2011 at 02:45:21
87 Posted 02/05/2011 at 07:24:19
"Look no further than the attacking style of Dalglish and compare it with that of Moyes."
An attacking style using attacking players that cost £50+ for two of them.
TWO of them.
88 Posted 02/05/2011 at 08:13:35
Ok, I'll bite lets do a straight compare this season on Victor Moses and Diniyar Bilyetdinov]
Played 18 games
Scored 1 goal
Provided 2 Assists
Took 19 shots on Goal
Played 25 games
Scored 2 goals
Provided 2 Assists
Took 28 shots on Goal
Cost Approx £10m (various reports have it from £8.9m upwards
Pound for pound Tony, Victor Moses is cheaper, despite injuries has done virtually the same in less matches this season and in the game against Everton had more shots than most Everton players did.
Moses isn't the only example of cheaper players ripping our slow squad a new one this season, he's just a very easy example fresh in the mind from the weekend and one Moyes didn't fancy yet took Bily on and has stuck him on the wing since despite him not being a winger.
Dave #66 cringe as you may, given BK's endless streams of bullshitisms and general lack of cash do you honestly expect Everton to go and poach Guardiola or Mourinho? Realistically would a manager with a trophy cabinet full of domestic and European trophies entertain Everton these days? You have to look the same direction as BK did for DM and thats a hungry lower league manager showing potential.
89 Posted 02/05/2011 at 07:43:43
I assume Dick, you are talking about the two championship goalscorers and the guy who's career has been savaged by injury ?
I truly believe this sort of argument does Moyes more far more good than harm ? people will always look at statements like that and any confidence they may have had in his attackers judgement will instantly disappear
90 Posted 02/05/2011 at 09:32:24
This is not a new debate, it happens every season and if we had taken any notice of you guys we may have ended up with one of the guys on my list.
The only thing all these names have in common is within a couple of years they are either sacked or relegated . .Owen Coyle will be shitting himslef if he reads TW.
You seem also to be suffering from what me arl fella used to call the Bernie the Bolt syndrom. Anyone who has a half decent game against us . . .
Victor Moses ? dear me. Try making a like for like comparrison, put him up against Beckford.
91 Posted 02/05/2011 at 09:59:30
You have a point when you steer the argument specifically to 'who will replace Moyes when/if he goes?' but lots of other posters very much give the impression that they want him to go and be replaced by some of these other guys. That's the attitude/argument I'm really concerned with arguing against, so apologies if I've conflated your real point with another common one on this thread. As far as I'm concerned, Moyes departure is not imminent, so discussion of his replacement is premature, unnecessary and has a dangerous current of misplaced wishful thinking behind it.
92 Posted 02/05/2011 at 10:06:32
Incidentally, I agree that I'd rather have signed him than Bilyaletdinov, although I didn't know that at the time. I'd also rather have signed Pennant and Etherington, and any one of a number of other wide players picked up by other clubs, and with those two, I think I did know that at the time, but you can't look at anything good done by another club and then lambast Moyes for not doing it. That's holding the guy to some pretty high standards (such as omniscience and omnipotence). If we expect Him to have those qualities no wonder people put so much trust in Him.
If we were thinking seriously about a replacement there should be no consideration given whatsoever for whether they were a former Everton player or not, but whether they are a thoughtful and innovative manager or not. The old boys network is the scourge of English football, and the reason we don't produce great coaches.
93 Posted 02/05/2011 at 09:06:18
Tony@52 I dont think it would cost a fortune to improve upon Anichebe or Hibbert (who has played ok recently).
Also the impact of Donovan who had pace to burn should have gave Moyes a big clue of what the team needed to have a chance of getting in amongst it at the top.
Some of these players especially the tried and tested do cost big money but there are others who are foreign to the league and those who have a badboy reputation that imo Moyes would never take a slight gamble with.
Its far from easy to improve your team from season to season but good managers find a way and get the job done.
94 Posted 02/05/2011 at 10:06:11
Owen Coyle - Done good with Burnley and Bolton but most importantly has got two sides known for playing hoof ball for decades playing good football.
Martin O'Neil - Proven track record but I can't see him coming to Everton with 0 money if he left Villa when they had more.
Alan Ivine - Knows the club, studied under Moyes so less of a transition. Got unjustly sacked by PNE after getting to the playoffs - they collapsed after he left. Got unjustly sacked by Sheff Wed after taking over and not be able to keep them up. Where mid to the next season when they sacked him and then the dropped like a stone. Personally I dont think he has what it takes to be PL manager.
95 Posted 02/05/2011 at 10:28:35
The manager chooses the style and it defies rational thought that there aren't attacking players in the football world who could come and do a job akin to the good job Jags, Baines, Distin, Lescott do/did in defence. This notion that no-one else could do what DM has done, better it, or most ridiculous of all - take the job on is just pathetic.
He's not unique in having to deal with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune - The chairman, the money, agents, MOTD, Ferguson's watch, Saha's knee - every manager has them.
IT IS THE REAL BATTLEGROUND.
Picking 11 for saturday, deciding whether to play one or none up front is light relief - look how many do it on here.
After 10 years his efforts have resulted in this squad - manufactured and spray painted in DM colours.
Every result, every performance, every nuance of style, every ounce of preparation, every transfer in and out is down to him.
Unfair? No chance - this is the sole reason he and his lucky bretheren need a wheelbarrow for their wages, and why the applicant line will be a mile long when the job comes up.
But fundamentally it comes down to this - he is at the very top of his industries food chain and as such subject to the unwritten clause of which all his ilk are judged: -
"TURN WATER INTO WINE OR CARRY THE CAN".
There are no excuses.
96 Posted 02/05/2011 at 10:58:44
I would take anyone over Moyes look at the Teams around us, Fulham, Bolton etc we should be finishing above these, we have not only outspent them over the years but are a bigger club. Moyes gets far too much praise for what he should be achieving, minimum.
It should be a top ten finish every year for all Everton mangers. I am sure the main reason why Smith went out the door was because he did not achieve this, Smith was not all bad; he left us with Gravesen & Carsley, undoubtedly the best midfielders we have seen under Moyes imo.
97 Posted 02/05/2011 at 11:26:53
If Moyes goes then we will end up with Sam Allardyce, mark my words... so all those people wanting Moyes out, think about it long and hard before you wish for things.
98 Posted 02/05/2011 at 11:30:09
I don't give a flying fook if they know Everton or not ? that should not be a major consideration.
Why not get Kendall back for a 4th time? He has been our most successful and knows the club better than anyone... dear me, deluded, some people!
99 Posted 02/05/2011 at 11:23:26
Because our resources are finite we just don?t recover as a team when a key individual is injured or sold. Think how influential the following would have been on team affairs in the past 3 years before fate cruelly intervened;
Yakubu, just getting back to his 1st season level then out for 14 months comes back minus a yard of pace, bang goes 11 m.
Lescott, a very good commanding attacking defender we where bullied into selling (ie wages) side never as strong since
Arteta,on the verge of big things before his knee went up at NUFC not the same player in terms of twisting and turning
Fellaini, formidable before his ankle injury at Anfield in 2010.
Throw in Jagielka (FA Cup final 2009), Saha, Pienaar, Rodwell, Vaughan and even the young lad Ross Barkley who I have no doubt would have featured at some stage this season before his double leg fracture. Align all that with a stadium which does not generate enough revenue and which we rarely fill to capacity.
Can anyone honestly say if all the above went in our favour we wouldn?t be playing a progressive brand of football competing for a CL spot? It?s difficult to disagree with a lot that has been said about BK and the way the clubs run, but I think Moyes deserves better than the mean spirited appraisal of his tenure made by some contributors.
100 Posted 02/05/2011 at 11:25:13
After watching Beckford umpteen times before signing him, was Moyes blind to the fact that the lad cannot trap a bag of cement?
Had the RS not signed Carroll or Suarez, I doubt if our two would get within a mile of their first team.
101 Posted 02/05/2011 at 11:44:11
102 Posted 02/05/2011 at 12:08:39
??.It doesnt really matter who we get as manager as long as we have no money to spend we wll not progress?.? The £25 million from Lescott was money we had & did not progress with in anyway shape or form. What makes you think another £25 million to Moyes will make us progress? The 26 million on Yakubu and Fellaini was hardly money well spent either was it? Deluded you must be.
Heard people claim this ?Sharpe who failed at Oldham years ago? ? Oldham this, Oldham that... yawn? not Everton is it? Reid?s managerial career has more achievement than Moyes?s. Sharp & Reid could be a formidable combination for Everton. What has Moyes ever achieved or won? Nothing ? if you mention LMA award for finishing 7th etc I will laugh my arse off.
103 Posted 02/05/2011 at 11:52:23
This type of player can end up as a a total misfit if not settled at a club but the flip side to that is if they feel confortable settled and enjoying there football they could become big important players.
104 Posted 02/05/2011 at 12:41:30
105 Posted 02/05/2011 at 12:23:26
Moses was a striker with Palace and played for England under 17 +19`s as a striker, he has been mainly employed on the wing for Wigan - something you would no doubt whine about if Moyes did it.
Fact is. like Beckford he made the step up but has failed to get a place even in a struggling team.
And by the way on Saturday you were telling us you "heard" Moyes was offered him, now your suddenly proclaiming it as fact.
The fact is, that anybody with 2.5 million could have had him and that made us one probably the ONLY prem club who couldnt have him.
Try harder ? dont need to when you keep raising these nonsensical arguments up, it takes no effort at all to dismiss them for what they are.
Maybe you should consider trying harder ? if Moyes is so bad, it should be easy to put him away. but the best you can offer is another weak arsed point you`ve just made up.
106 Posted 02/05/2011 at 12:39:22
Shandy Andy anyone?
Gavin, bite what? I was suggesting that apart from you singing his praise, Moses has never been, to my knowledge, mentioned on this site. His one goal every half season would have us shooting up the league though wouldn't it? And you do realise that you have compared him to a player many on here think is the worst player ever for Everton and yet his record is only slightly better but only due to playing 7 less games (Are he minutes on the pitch similar to Bily's though)
It's not "cowardly fear" Trevor, it is debate and a valid question. Yes it matters not a jot on web site but it's so much easier to spout "Moyes is shite" but when countered with the "who realistically obtainable do you think could do better?" The answers are usually "shite" or the manager unobtainable..
107 Posted 02/05/2011 at 13:40:38
If however he was to go, Villa for example and you are asking who I would like in his place the answer is without doubt Jose Mourinho. Who would I like and think we would get.............Gus Poyet.
108 Posted 02/05/2011 at 16:19:10
109 Posted 02/05/2011 at 18:07:28
110 Posted 02/05/2011 at 18:18:39
I think we do have a few realistic options:
Davey Jones deserves a crack.
Martinez still has an attacking style that would work a treat with better players than his current Wigan squad.
Lambert certainly has his teams playing good passing football, despite the quality of player at his two clubs being inferior to Premier League standard.
What is clear is that all three of the above options play an attacking brand of football that involves passing and creativity ? remember the School of Science?! The likes of O'Neill, Pulis, Warnock play old style hoofball, no better than what we play now. I watch a fair bit of Conference football being up in York and our pattern of play isn't much above that level if I am brutally honest ? it is often effective but it will always be limited ? hence no trophies.
While I don't hate Moyes like some, I am tired of his brand of football, and I honestly think he knows he is out of ideas, out of money and is just pocketing his hefty wages waiting for an approach from Utd that will never come.
111 Posted 02/05/2011 at 18:52:08
Moyes has to play his best players, when fit, and the team picks itself unfortunately.
Davey Jones, I like him but he hasn't managed to get Cardiff up in 5/6 attempts, hopefully he will this season but e could be a nearly man like Moyes.
Martinez......why do people want him? Posters have a go at some of the defeats Moyes has had but this man has been twatted in so many games, it's unreal. So what he get his team to look pretty, he is probably going to get them relegated this year. At present, he has a 25% win rate...bring him on, halleluah
112 Posted 02/05/2011 at 18:54:09
Dave, you really do take the bullet. Palace played Moses up front but he is listed as a midfielder and at Wigan until injury was playing a reasonable winger or is that something your myopic views deny?
Man City had a £2m bid for Moses turned down, his former manager Neil Warnock was quoted as saying a number of Premier League managers took a look.
Stick to defending Anichebe another lost cause.
113 Posted 02/05/2011 at 19:08:20
It won't wash lad, I clearly state anybody with ¦£2.5M could have had him, this was proved to be fact.
Just admit it, you made up another cock-and-bull story about Moyes being offered him it and you've been rumbled... You must think we were all born yesterday.
I`d like to say nice try... but it wasn't.
114 Posted 02/05/2011 at 19:39:13
What does that show you? That he doesn't even compare to our worst player. (Anichebe is obviously our worst player but he is a forward... I suppose.)
So a "number of Premier League managers" is your proof that Moyes watched him, could afford him, and decided he didn't want him. Tenuous at best methinks. Did he name him specifically? I honestly don't know, as I personally haven't heard him mentioned on here before.
115 Posted 02/05/2011 at 20:38:32
You disagreed with a point I made and I was going to respond ? but I read some of your earlier posts on this thread and you're just not wired up properly are you?
116 Posted 02/05/2011 at 21:13:31
The again, two can play at that game so, never argue with an idiot, people passing by won't be able to distinguish between the two.
For that reason, I am out.
117 Posted 02/05/2011 at 20:34:57
Moyes himself said he was happy with his squad? Man Utd won the title ? were they happy? It didn't look like as they went out and bought a striker who cost less than Moyes spent on Bily.
Moyes's instincts in getting in attacking players are shite, imo; if a player doesn't run down blind alleys chasing lost causes, he wo'nt be a favourite with Moyes, even if they have the ability to go past players and create.
I've not seen much of Tarabat of QPR so don't know if he has what it takes but I doubt Moyes would ever be in for him even if the reports of his talent are true. Bellamy another, a little shit but the type who could shine but its the baggage not wages or Man City why he won't be joining us imo.
118 Posted 02/05/2011 at 20:30:18
I mention the rather "outlandish" idea of someone like Ryan Giggs simply to perhaps raise the possibility of "thinking outside the box". As you well know, Giggs is continuing to defy the ravages of age and performing well at the top level and I have no idea as to when he might decide to undertake his stated hopes of taking up a role in coaching and management.
I simply suggested him as I sometimes think we worship too readily at the altar of experience and continue to perpetuate the managerial roundabout bemoaned years ago by Neville Southall who referred to an insane football industry where managerial failures were often readily rewarded with further opportunities and further lucrative contracts etc on the grounds that they "have experience".
I may be mistaken but I also feel that the managerial reach of the old Catterick and the Shankly days seems to have gone. Except in very rare and prestigious circumstances, contracts, finances, and even the purchasing and selling of players etc are often the domain of others and not simply the manager. It appears to me then that the managerial task should be much more focussed on the nurturing of talented footballers through a professional approach to youth policies, top coaching regimes, genuine skills development etc. Through his experience of over 20 years at the top level at Man Utd, I feel that someone of the stature of Ryan Giggs may just possibly have that "experience".
Everton have had their share of "experienced" managers over many years. In the last quarter of a century, it has resulted in one FA Cup victory! (I hasten to add that this is obviously NOT the sole responsibility of the manager but many HAVE played a part in much of that underachievement!)
As I stated initially, however, whatever happens post-Moyes, whenever that may be, much depends on Everton getting their house in order. SHOULD Mr Moyes leave I was simply suggesting that instead of trawling through the "band of the usual suspects" we could perhaps think a bit more creatively and courageously for it might just be that this "experience" element, although an important element, may at times be just a little over-hyped.
119 Posted 02/05/2011 at 21:53:55
120 Posted 03/05/2011 at 03:32:26
121 Posted 03/05/2011 at 10:53:06
Standard Liege for example have a better team and play good attacking football. How much have they spent on signings?? Could their coach do a similar job at Everton??
How much did Barcelona pay for Messi? Was it a £100m?? Must've been because you cannot build a great team without a mega rich owners, correct??
We're doomed without Moyes, what are we going to do? Yeah right... give me a break, there are and will always be other managers out there who can do a better job, we just need to take a gamble like we did when we appointed Moyes, and who knows ? it could payoff?
122 Posted 03/05/2011 at 12:56:11
There is no coincidence that Man City, who have spent millions upon millions, are now looking to be the team this year to take the 4th qualifying spot for the Champions League.
Look at Chelski, they were floundering, what did they do? Spend over £70m on two new players... and look, they are now 3 points behind the leaders.
A great coach/manager can get you so far but if the players are from Primark, you won't win things. It really is that simple. Portsmouth won a FA Cup by throwing money at the team they didn't have, now they are in a lower division and unable to get a full subs bench anymore.
Man City will probably win the FA Cup...... and it's all down to money, money money. £225k a week for a Barcelona reject.
Barcelona have been lucky, all their youth players have come through at the same time. I doubt we will ever see a team like this again, certainly not in my life time.
123 Posted 03/05/2011 at 17:09:48
It's sad but I no longer remotely believe we'll ever win any kind of trophy with our current manager and I honestly don't think we'll ever make the Champions League with him again.
And let's be honest, it would be frightening to see us humiliated by the big boys early on; the current team is stale, it's where it is in the league because of how poor the Premier League has become... Best in the World? ? only in the money that's generated; certainly not the footie that's played!
If we are to progress (not necessarily winning things), we do need better management of our players, and what I see, week-in and week-out, is complete mismanagement of the highest order.
Anichebe should never be allowed anywhere near the first team. Further, throwing on your favourite players to disrupt a team that was running on form is another bad move... but he keeps on doing it.
Moyes struggles big time with critical decisions. We should have won a lot more games this season, and we all know that, but, at the end of the day, it's down to the manager ? he picks the sides... and he has failed in the job to do that.
If it was just an isolated season I could probably find a way to forgive him; but, for me, this is not isolated, it's the exact same mistakes made week-in and week-out... It's not about the money; it's about the ability of the manager to do his job properly.
He simply has to go now; he has been too negligent over the years... and has allowed his preferences to over rule what could have been a great squad playing great football.
It's been said to death, that he is a dour and absolutely negative manager, and we'll never win a thing under him. The last straw for me was how absolutely stinking we where against United at Old Trafford... that was just utterly embarrassing ? what was it? Two shots on goal? And that against a second string side... appalling! And the worst part is, that's too much of a kind word for the state of that performance.
Once Moyes goes, BIll Kenwright will be vulnerable... and he will have no choice but to sell... coz no-one in their right mind would want the job with the current custodians. It's sad that it's not only the board who have no ambition ? it's the manager too, despite the crock of shite he and the players spout each week.
124 Posted 03/05/2011 at 17:35:07
As for fans not putting up with his excuses, we've been doing that for the past 9 years with Moyes... so I think maybe thats a moot point.
I think each of us wants us to play fast-paced attacking football ? not the 'defend and try and nick it' tactic that fails so often when teams just set up shop at the back... when we become absolutely clueless on how to break them down.
I believe MON would be very good for us, but for the life of me, I just couldn't see him wanting to come to us.
I remember back at the start of the decade, we where looking for a new manager, and I understand we approached MON, but he turned us down and did he not then go to Celtic? Some how Smith managed to keep his job until he was sacked and Moyes moved in.
MON wouldn't want to come to us, he is ambitious... which is something we are most definitely not.
125 Posted 03/05/2011 at 19:02:02
Most former blues on the management scene are average at best, and some (such as Peter Reid) still get jobs in the face of all possible logic. Brian Robson continued to get jobs in the lower leagues for years before people finally realised he didn't have a clue. Managers like Mourinho, Wenger, (ahem...) Benitez, Houllier and even Sir Alex Ferguson are good managers without ever having been impressive players (also true of up-and-comer Ralf Rangnick). Also, many of these succesful managers have had their biggest successes at clubs they never played for or had no connection with.
Of course there are many managers who were good players, and many, like Guardiola, who remain at the club where they have strong connections, but I'm arguing that a previous connection isn't a legitimate reason to favour one candidate over another; their intelligence and ability to think innovatively and analytically about the game are more important than anything else.
I'll also repeat the point that English football doesn't seem to value this at all, and instead just wants to appoint famous ex-players regardless of their actual abilities as a manager.
126 Posted 03/05/2011 at 23:24:12
If you recall, one of our most successful managers, Harry Catterick, although a former Everton player, did not have an impressive playing career. The only former Everton player to become manager without showing promise elsewhere was Harvey who came through the internal coaching set-up at the club. I would argue that a previous connection is a legitimate reason to favour one candidate over another ? provided they are otherwise fairly evenly matched.
The only instance I can recall of Everton being tempted by the celebrity former player route was the time Andy Gray was linked to the job. I'm not too sure of the merits of your "old boy" network theory either; I suspect a lot of what happens in the running of club football has far more to cock-up than conspiracy.
127 Posted 04/05/2011 at 02:50:11
128 Posted 04/05/2011 at 09:27:40
129 Posted 04/05/2011 at 12:23:16
Maybe the likes of Bily and Anichebe would run that bit faster if they had Reidy growling at them 24/7...
130 Posted 05/05/2011 at 12:52:34
The "he was a good player, and he wants the job, let's give it him..." is far easier for them than understanding the complexities of a modern coaching position and working out which young, and possibly unheard of, coaches might have real potential.
And Daniel (129) I simply don't think that would work with today's millionaire players. An average Premier League squad player earns more than Reid & Co ever did so they take a particular kind of motivation. In particular, that they are part of something progressive or special, or that they can see the intelligence in what they are being asked to do. I can easily envisage that simply growling at them would be treated with derisory laughter, its out of touch, old fashioned and would reinforce the current players attitude that they know more and are worth more than the players of 25 years ago.
131 Posted 05/05/2011 at 16:49:11
However, despite the long-standing inadequacies of successive Everton Boards, I don't really see these criticisms being applicable to Everton's history of recruitment of managers. We haven't tended to employ managers just because they were star players or because established mediocrity is deemed preferable to a promising manager who's proved elsewhere that he has potential.
Add Your Comments
In order to post a comment to the MailBag, you need to be logged in as a registered user of the site.
Or Sign up as a ToffeeWeb Member — it's free, takes just a few minutes and will allow you to post your comments on articles and MailBag submissions across the site.