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In Spite of or Because of...?

Comments (31)

It looks very much as though Everton will finish the season just one place behind what Sky termed, this morning, as their "Super Six". Given that most of their focus ? and that of the journos who appear on their Sunday Supplement ? is on Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Spurs and Liverpool, I suppose to them it's an appropriate description... so it would be too much to hope that we could be included in a Magnificent Seven!

Be that as it may, I do think that David Moyes has done a magnificent job to ensure that we've seen off those other pretenders to the elite, Aston Villa, to proclaim Everton as "the best of the rest". Because of this, discussion amongst Goodison regulars in the Freshie has focussed this week on whether our manager's excellent record is BECAUSE of the backing he receives from Chairman Bill Kenwright or IN SPITE of it!

Personally, I believe that Bill Kenwright's 'non-interventionist' policy and his decision to lock in his manager with a most generous long-term contract is the factor that has seen our club more than hold its own over the last nine seasons. However, the contrary view is that the constraints endemic in 'local boy' ownership have required Moyes to be a genius to keep us in contention.

I have to admit that my view is in the minority as so many Evertonians would readily swop Kenwright for Ghadaffi given the chance but you can't conclude much from a poll of six... so how do ToffeeWebbers vote on this issue?
Richard Dodd, Freshfield     Posted 10/05/2011 at 20:11:47

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Gavin Ramejkis
1   Posted 11/05/2011 at 07:33:25

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Doddy, it's been done to death but I'd swap BK in a heartbeat with anyone, he's as useless as a chocolate teapot. Unfortunately his rhino thick hide implies it would only be him dropping dead that would finally rest the club from his grubby lying hands (or the tax dodger's).
Stephen Kenny
2   Posted 11/05/2011 at 07:35:12

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Personally I belive Bill's non-interventionist policy on pretty much every aspect of club business except lying to fans and failed ground moves now means that you and Evertonians like you have no choice but to cling to ridiculous titles such as "best of the rest". We are seventh, not fifth or even second, to which the title should truly apply.

Regardless of our financial predicament no Evertonian should ever be accepting of seventh.

In Moyes's first five years he was given limited funds, from the club's coffer's to build a squad. He built, for the money an excellent squad and has been largely responsible for everything good that has happened since IMO. He should also take a portion of blame for the slow decline we are seeing, although that has been hastened by the lack of money available to him for replacements.

I don't believe a club of our size, stature within the game, history of great players and innovator's in the game should consider not winning a trophy in almost a decade "holding your own".
Derek Thomas
3   Posted 11/05/2011 at 08:11:11

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In spite of.
Mike Green
4   Posted 11/05/2011 at 08:06:55

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The problem is, a few years ago it was "the Big Four" and we were the best of the rest. Then it was the "Big Five" and we were the best of the rest. Now it's the "Super 6" and we are..... you guessed it.

The real debate here is do we genuinely no longer hold the credentials to be classed as a big club in modern times ? or do the media just not want us to be part of their love in without the all important thing ? money?

It's as if they wait to see where we end up and label everyone above us "the big x" ? if we'd come 16th this season it would've been "The Fab 15".

I was listening to Radio 5 Live last night and they were debating the shake up of the top 6 places amongst the "Super 6" like it's a closed shop and fair play to Graham Taylor for saying ? "Don't forget Everton, they're always in and around it".

Thank you Graham.
Jeremy Benson
5   Posted 11/05/2011 at 08:33:49

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We can still get into that super six. If we win our last two games, and Spurs only pick up a point from their last two, then we're in...
Tony J Williams
6   Posted 11/05/2011 at 09:02:08

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I wouldn't give a shiny rat's ass what the $ky pundits want to call it. Funny how they always seem to want to accomodate the Red Shite and Spuds in their elite group though.

I am more interested in watching Everton and hoping that next season we can stay relatively injury-free and retain our better players..... of course it would be nice if we could start a season well.
Ajay Gopal
7   Posted 11/05/2011 at 09:49:35

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I almost fell out of my chair laughing last week, when one of the ESPN 'pundits' Jeff Shreeves intoned: "I would really like to see David Moyes being given the chance to manage at one of the big clubs like ......... Aston Villa". LoL :-)
Jamie Barlow
8   Posted 11/05/2011 at 11:11:42

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I know its petty but I hate how whenever they show the top of the league, it always stops before it gets to us. When we were above the Shite, it would show the top 7. As soon as they go above us, they show the top 6. I wonder if, would we finish 6th, would it still be the super 6, or the fabulous 5. Fuck it, who cares.
Anthony Hawkins
9   Posted 11/05/2011 at 12:38:13

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100% in spite of. Maybe, just maybe BK has done a good job with what he has(n't) got behind the scenes. However, the perenial lack of funding and the lies don't lend him to being the good guy.
Scott Goin
10   Posted 11/05/2011 at 14:06:45

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Why does it have to be one or the other? BK gives Moyes the flexibility and job security to do his job the way he wants. That helps I'm sure. But BK also hamstrings Moyes with finances and is doing nothing to improve our situation. That's a constant wall that Moyes is hurled up against every year. Sooner or later, Moyes will get tired of banging his head against the wall because it doesn't look like that wall is coming down while BK is here.
Tommy Gourlay
11   Posted 11/05/2011 at 14:06:46

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I keep wanting to think that when the new spending rules are in place ? and if they are monitored properly (ie, Man City owner can't give the club money anymore, but claims he 'has' to pay £100 million for his season ticket would break the new rules) ? that any future success would be "Because of" BK.

Unfortunately though the Kings Dock, the "Fortress Sports Fund" ruse, his "Goodison is falling down" 'claim', and the new commercial building failure (if new rumours are true) worry me that ? although he has the heart ? he may not have the business acumen.

Marc Williams
12   Posted 11/05/2011 at 15:59:32

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Doddy... When BK's mis-managment takes us into Admin and or relegation I bet you'll still be on here with your positive spin.
What will it be then eh Richard... Everton are again the best of the rest, starting next season just outside Sky's 'Terrific Twenty'!

I've voted... You & BK are the weakest links... Goodbye.
Chris Bannantyne
13   Posted 11/05/2011 at 15:46:21

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Stupid post about a stupid league placing. 7th isn't the 'best of' anything. It's 7th, one behind 6th and one in front of 8th.

Has Moyes done well in his tenure battling with lack of funds and still managing to build a decent squad?Yeah sure, and that is definitely in spite of BK and his board. But Moyes has a shed load of failings too.

In the fantasy land event that we suddenly become super rich in the next week or two, I am one of those who would give Moyes a season or two chance to see if he actually does have the goods to deliver silverware. I would hazard a guess that he doesn't really, too many strange tactical decisions and not enough of an attacking spirit in my opinion, but I would give the fella a shot at the big time, I would be very pleased for him to prove me wrong.

Whilst we are penniless though, yeah he's probably worth keeping. He seems to be able to keep us fairly comfortable from the drop and in these so called 'best of the rest' positions. Not real happy with the crappy starts and the lack of even a dopey Carling cup to our name though.
Steve Sweeney
14   Posted 11/05/2011 at 16:17:50

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You are the type of pro-Billy Bullshitter that has finally made me wake up and see that all my protestations are a complete waste of time money and effort. The fact that we could only manage 7th is a fucking joke this season.

The RS were in the bottom 3 in December and, if they had put Dogface in charge earlier, may well have qualified for the CL again.

As fans we will get what we deserve and as most are Billy Supporters like you; enjoy your top 8 finishes. I am finished with Everton so long as that Bullshitter remains. Reading these posts, you won't be alone.

Ian Campbell
15   Posted 11/05/2011 at 17:26:41

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Well I guess we only have ourselves to blame for not being in the latter part of this group seeing as we have taken 6pts from the 4th placed team and 4pts from both the 5th and 6th placed teams.

Too many slip-ups at home against WBA, Newcastle, Birmingham, Wolves, Wigan etc.
Richard Dodd
16   Posted 11/05/2011 at 18:39:38

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If nobody wishes to purchase a controlling interest in our club, what the hell can our chairman possibly do about it? Personally, I feel that his abject faith in David Moyes is well placed and, had Lady Luck been with us in the first half of the season as she has been in the second, we would have another 16 points and into 4th place. Then both DM and BK would be our heroes. Such is the margin between heroes and villains!
Andy Crooks
17   Posted 11/05/2011 at 19:00:26

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Richard, why on earth would Kenwright intervene? Moyes keeps him right at the balance point. Stay in the Premier League, never criticise the chairman, receive the plaudits of your peers and the press. Let the chairman cry at Z-Cars and entertain his luvvy pals with tales of tales of jumpers for goal posts and watching Everton as an urchin.

In return, a job for life, a huge salary, and universal admiration. A truly self-serving indestructible double act.

Joe McMahon
18   Posted 11/05/2011 at 19:44:58

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Richard, I know you like me and the rest of us are lifelong fans. I've read what you think many times. Just ask yourself three questions Richard:

1)Where are Everton Football Club actually going?

2) What have Everton Football Club achieved since Bill Kenwright became chairman?

3) What plans do have Everton Football Club have for a new stadium?

Antony Matthews
19   Posted 11/05/2011 at 20:16:20

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In the coming seasons, a sugar daddy wont be necessary, Uefa's new rules come into place and income and outgoings have to be balanced. Thats us fooked then ! Unless we sell players to balance the books.....or do we do that now ?
James Flynn
20   Posted 11/05/2011 at 22:15:49

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Richard ? Good post and congrats. A "Doddy" post went thru 11 responses without getting personal. A record for you, I think.

Regarding your point, the only way EFC (or any club) gets into the media discussion routinely is to challenge for the top. Same as all professional sport.

To me, Kenwright etal have done well enough in their time. Clearly, EFC needs the bucks to make the last jump up (finishers!) and the money's not there presently. Either they get the backing or sell out.

They're accumulating debt (not us, them from their pocketbooks) year after year now and, God bless em for saving the Club 10 years ago, their time is done.

Jay Harris
21   Posted 11/05/2011 at 23:01:53

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Ghaddafi is too good a comparison with Kenwright.

Try Hitler he was a self deluded dictator and tortured millions while running an institution into oblivion.
Ian Pilkington
22   Posted 11/05/2011 at 20:48:36

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It's all very well being satisfied at finishing seventh and "best of the rest", but how long can even this modest position continue to be achieved under the current ownership?
Kenwright will have to sell up eventually, but if he doesn't go very soon the decline of our great club will become irreversible.
Jay Harris
23   Posted 12/05/2011 at 02:07:34

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James# 19,

Could you explain in what way Kenwright "saved the club"?

From what?

He inherited a 5 million overdraft and a net asset position which he has turned into a net liability of around £80 million despite selling Rooney for 30 pieces of silver.
Eric Myles
24   Posted 12/05/2011 at 04:10:24

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Richard, my vote is


Steve Pugh
25   Posted 12/05/2011 at 08:50:15

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We don't need a Sugar Daddy, we just need a chairman (and board) with enough business accumen to bring our ticket prices in line with the other big clubs, push our merchandise into stores around the country and bring matchday money streams back to the club.
Gavin Ramejkis
26   Posted 12/05/2011 at 08:59:17

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Doddy you raise a second good point about buying a controlling interest in the club, unfortunately BK refuses point blank to put a price on the club and his legacy is compounded debt through a criminal lack of business acumen.

He bought the club and transferred the debt, he failed with the NTL deal but had already securitised that £30m debt which will cost at least £70m over it's lifetime; he signed a player on a contract longer than his work permit (Alex Nyarko); he infamously lied through his teeth to maintain control of the club and lost the KD; he wasted millions on DK, a project which could never have succeeded; he failed to tie another player to a contract, losing the club a transfer fee (Dan Gosling).

His litany of failures is shameful ? not by the grace of whoever your may call your God or luck or fortune ? just a simple lack of common sense and vision; a small time player out of his depth.

Tony J Williams
27   Posted 12/05/2011 at 12:16:57

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"our ticket prices in line with the other big clubs" - Unfortunately we are not viewed as a big club anymore and to increase ticket prices to match them, he has to justify the increase. Not with overflowing toilets, warm pints and cold pies.

Accoriding to many at the club the place is falling apart, so again no justification for a huge hike in costs.

One small thing he can do is find a way to stop adults purchasing kids season tickets. The application photo on the season ticket might be a start.
Tony J Williams
28   Posted 12/05/2011 at 12:22:18

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Just noticed what I posted in the first part and realised it was a load of rubbish. I remember when we finished 17th and endured the biggest increase in season ticket prices I have ever know, I think it was about 30/35%
Tony J Williams
29   Posted 12/05/2011 at 12:28:11

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In other words, he needs no justification at all.....must remember to get less shots in my coffee.
Gavin Ramejkis
30   Posted 12/05/2011 at 14:53:46

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Tony, good example... another of just how piss poor things are and sense of wasting time and energy instead of pushing valid time and resources against turning coin was that "see yourself as an Everton player" shite, why did the club waste time and energy on this? It didn't create any money whatsoever and sounds like some programmer's wet dream realisation rather than tracking down real revenue generators.

Is there anyone at the club with any idea of innovation tied to making a profit? FFS you could run an open competition for ideas with a prize of a matchday experience meeting the players and a slap up meal or a few grand or a family holiday for ideas that could turn into a profitable line. I'll bet money this website contributors alone could generate more ideas than the club has in a decade.
James Flynn
31   Posted 13/05/2011 at 03:58:24

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Jay (23) - From everything I've read on here in my 17 months as a TWer. Were we or not heading to relegation when he bought the Club? He hired Moyes.

At the time of the hiring, who knew how good Moyes would turn out? No one. Kenright has to get the credit for that.

Now, these years later, "Punching above your weight" won't get it done since so much foreign money has poured into the league. You need to have, at least, more money than currently available.

I believe, and have said here, that the merchandising angle (a routine given here in American professional sport) has been woefully neglected and Kenright has to take the blame directly.

I've mentioned the Landon loan as a perfect example of this. So what if LD would be with the Club for a few months. There was money to be made while he was at EFC. And nothing was done to generate some bucks? From an American sports fan's point of view? Embarassingly incompetent business.

You throw some numbers at me? What do they mean in denying the simple fact EFC was relegation fodder until Moyes was hired.

BK has to get credit for that then as he, rightly, gets credit now for fumbling the opportunity at a new stadium and proving a team can punch above its weight and win.

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