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Birmingham or Us?

Comments (28)

I just wonder, now the dust has settled, what people's thoughts are.

I understand that one of the most valid criticisms levelled at Moyes's tenure is that we haven't won a cup. Breaking into the Champions League would be a tremendous achievement (that has been attained once) but winning a cup in many ways should be nearer our reach. The likes of Portsmouth and Birmingham have managed it!

But, if you had to choose between our season and Birmingham's, which would you take?

I for one would choose ours. I don't fancy the Championship much.

Sam Hoare, Marbella     Posted 23/05/2011 at 14:31:56

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Andy Crooks
1   Posted 23/05/2011 at 15:17:40

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Sam, had we won the league cup David Moyes would simply not have tolerated the malaise that set in at Birmingham. It isn't one or the other we are better than Birmingham and Moyes, yes I critcise him, is better than McLeish.e could do both.
Gavin Ramejkis
2   Posted 23/05/2011 at 15:27:48

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Have to agree with Andy, I heard McLeish interviewed and he was bitching about injuries, I had to grin and think to myself welcome to the world of Everton for years. Moyes would never have let the team sit back and play as shite as Brum did since that final.
Chris Keightley
3   Posted 23/05/2011 at 15:28:30

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I'd take the cup and hope we had a team to bounce back up at the first opportunity!!
Dennis Stevens
4   Posted 23/05/2011 at 16:26:26

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A bit of a silly question, Sam. Surely you don't consider relegation a necessary consequence of winning a cup, or imagine that anybody would say that it's an acceptable price to pay for winning a bit of silverware?

It's also somewhat hypothetical as the question rather assumes Moyes has it in him to win a cup & all the evidence is to the contrary. He'll keep us safe in the Premier League but we'll never win anything whilst he's manager.

Ryan Holroyd
5   Posted 23/05/2011 at 16:30:28

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Getting relegated would be catastrophic for Everton so I would prefer being in the Premier League rather than winning a cup no-one gives two shits about.
Shaun Brennan
6   Posted 23/05/2011 at 16:46:04

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That's a bit of a stupid question, like would you rather have cocks for fingers or a cock for a nose??
David Barks
7   Posted 23/05/2011 at 17:03:23

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No it's not a stupid post or question, because after Birmingham won the cup toffeeweb was flooded with posters saying how shit Moyes is because Birmingham had won a cup and he hasn't. This led to one idiotic post being published asking to guess why Portsmouth, Birmingham etc were all better than Everton. The answer being they had won a cup more recently than us. So no it's not stupid, it's in response to a load of rubbish being posted on here saying Birmingham and McLeish were better than Everton and Moyes. Well they are now in the Championship and will not be thought about for at least an entire season. Meanwhile Everton will continue to challenge in the Premier League and we get to watch them beat Chelsea and Man City etc. It proves a point that your value can't purely be measured by whether you have won a Cup or not, which many on here like to do when they knock Moyes.
Matt Bone
8   Posted 23/05/2011 at 17:13:38

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I agree with David (#7).

All 3 relegated sides had something that a lot of TW posters say they want:

A) Foreign investment ? West ham anyone?

B) Attractive, attacking football ? Blackpool anyone?

C) Silverwear/ cup success ? Birmingham anyone?

It's not a stupid question at all.

Now I am not the biggest fan of the way we play the game BUT we play to our strengths based on the players we have and the money we have to acquire them. So Blackpool won admirers for the attacking style of football and look what happened to them ? which would people prefer?
Andrew Humphrey
9   Posted 23/05/2011 at 17:42:16

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Whilst of course there isn't a direct link between winning a cup and relegation, it's interesting to note that, of the teams that have won the League Cup or FA Cup in the Premier League era, only Villa and Spurs haven't then made a hasty exit down the leagues. Birmingham being the most recent example, but also Pompey, Boro, Blackburn (to a certain extent) and Leicester.
Andrew Humphrey
10   Posted 23/05/2011 at 17:44:29

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I should add, I mean teams outside the financial elite of Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal etc...
Sam Hoare
11   Posted 23/05/2011 at 18:04:45

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Thank you David and Matt.

Shaun, I might be so bold as to say that's a bit of a stupid response!

My point is, as guessed, to contrast Moyes's and Everton strengths and weaknesess. And, as ever, to provoke some banter...
David Edwards
12   Posted 23/05/2011 at 18:54:29

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Chris #3 ? Can't believe your comment ? it must be ironic surely! Our proud record of the longest time in the top flight is now one of the few things we can boast about. I'll forgive a lot of stuff from our board, managers and players, but relegation is an absolute no-no.

Getting back would be no easy option ? just look at some of the great teams in the lower divisions, or think about Man City a few years ago! Thinking about it is just dreadful.....!
Trevor Powell
13   Posted 23/05/2011 at 19:02:01

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What ever happened to the Moyes mantra when he first took over that his teams were always out on the pitch to win?
Dennis Stevens
14   Posted 23/05/2011 at 19:34:57

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No. I still think it's a stupid question & the idea that it's a response to stupid comparisons between Everton & various cup-winning teams does nothing to make it seem any less non-sensical.
Dalziel Kane
15   Posted 23/05/2011 at 19:25:28

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I wasn't going to get involved today but as soon as I saw this piece I felt I had to react.

People ask the question, would you rather be another team that won the League Cup and be relegated or stay in the EPL and end up empty handed, well I know what the hell I'd favor.

Birmingham did well this season, to win the League Cup (for a club of their size, no disrespect), but to ask to be in their shoes and watch as they then get relegated, no, no way would I swap that. First club since Norwich 26 years ago to win a domestic trophy and be relegated from the top flight.

And let's not forget the Carling / League Cup (they change the name of it every damn season it would seem), is a largely trivial piece of silver that is sneered upon by a majority of supporters. I'm well aware that Everton have never won this, apart from a couple of finals eons ago, but there's a part of me that would like to see us win it one day and, by the same token, I'm not all that bothered.

If say, European Cup (for argument's sake) and relegation, maybe we could consider that, but to offer a third-rate rather insignificant piece of trophy, to some people at least, and go down with it, that's a bit of an asinine question.

Everton to remain in the EPL, no honors this season, but It's a damn sight better than an afternoon of Mickey Mouse to put on the shelf and relegation into the twilight world outside of the Premier League. There are a lot of good sides in the Championship, some say it's harder to win than the Premier League itself, and who's to say Everton would jump right back up at the first attempt? It could be a few years before we ever get back to the top flight.

And let's not forget Everton Football Club's record against lower league sides in the FA Cup and League Cup in recent years; if we struggle against lower opposition in one-offs on an almost constant basis, how's it going to read over the course of 47 games with the same calibre of opposition we just can't seem to beat for Toffee? (No pun intentional.)

Joe McMahon
16   Posted 23/05/2011 at 19:41:40

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Matt Bone - A) Foreign investment ? West Ham anyone?

Foreign investment ? Man Utd 1st; Chelsea 2nd; City 3rd. So yes, I'd take Foreign investment.
Sam Hoare
17   Posted 23/05/2011 at 19:55:06

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Of course its hypothetical and i'm not saying that there is definitely a link between league form and cup form though Andrew Humphrey makes a fair point in saying Birmingham aren't the first team to suffer post cup down-turn.

My question is weighted slightly obviously in saying that although a lot of people are (rightly) critical of Moyes ability to put out a team on a good cup run that he should be commended for our steady and continual rise up the table as an established Premier League team. Which we weren't when he took over.

If you don't think this is worth pointing out then fair enough but I don't think its quite right to say it's a stupid question.
Trevor Mackie
18   Posted 23/05/2011 at 19:36:48

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Maybe not stupid but certainly hypothetical; it looks an invitation to justify the Moyes standard ? grasped gleefully and predictably.

More pertinent was the overhauling of McLeish's dour workmanlike Birmingham by the Wigan minnows who dared to attack to fight for their lives.

Well done, Mr Martinez, for showing it can be done.
Dennis Stevens
19   Posted 23/05/2011 at 20:30:56

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Sam, it just seems to me to be a round about way of celebrating Premier League survival & a top half finish to boot. If that's your definition of success then, Hurrah! - that's what Moyes delivers, which is no mean feat in itself. However, does anybody actually think that Moyes has it in him to actually win anything? I have no expectation of seeing any silverware whilst he is in charge.
Dean Adams
20   Posted 23/05/2011 at 21:22:38

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We are capable of going on long unbeaten runs, which maybe one day will just coincide with our cup games and lead us to a trophy. Winning a cup can rely a lot on luck, so all we need is to ask our fairy godmother (whoever she is?) to bless us with half the luck the spawny red shite seem to get and hey presto we will have some glory in a cup. Believing is the first step that we should take.
James McGrady
21   Posted 23/05/2011 at 23:07:29

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Birmingham and Pompey have spent money they don't have. Also Pompey won in a season when they had to play a cChampionship side. Birmingham got lucky on the day.
Adam Fenlon
22   Posted 24/05/2011 at 01:52:10

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Personally I'd go with cocks for fingers....
Adam Fenlon
23   Posted 24/05/2011 at 01:54:49

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It's actually not that dumb a question. In ten years time, when Brum havent won anything since, they'll probably look back at the year when they did win a trophy as a major highlight, even if it did end up coinciding with a few years in the wilderness.

At least we've got our history, cause there's not much reason to expect a trophy's around the corner for our lads anytime soon (prove me wrong Davey!).
Matt Traynor
24   Posted 24/05/2011 at 07:44:59

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People may forget, but the last time we won a trophy we were having a dire time of it in the league, and the cup games were a release for the players (as much as for the fans). Only one goal (dodgy pen in semi) conceded in the whole run, and in the end the confidence returned to get the team through the league season.

It wasn't all cos Earl Barrett was cup-tied was it?
Eugene Ruane
25   Posted 24/05/2011 at 07:55:02

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Cock for a nose - definitely!

Would actually make life easier.

Basically, you could..erm...'buy your paper at the same time as you're buying your ciggies' stuff.

(nb: cocks for fingers and potentially, you're talking 11 taxis!)
Steve Pugh
26   Posted 24/05/2011 at 08:58:30

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I love all the 'politicians' on here. A simple question "would you rather win a cup and get relegated or not win a cup and stay in the prem?", and people start trying to make out that winning cups and relegation are linked. Does anyone think that maybe Sam is just asking fans to evaluate their priorities following comments made just after Birmingham won the cup.

Personally I feel that staying in the Prem is vital to the survival of Everton FC. Considering how hard it is to find money for players now, think what it would be like on Championship money.
Chris Bannantyne
27   Posted 24/05/2011 at 09:34:34

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Id rather stay in the prem then win the FA/carling cup.

Don't see why we can't do both though.
James Marshall
28   Posted 24/05/2011 at 14:14:00

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We should have lost to Man City in the final, not Stoke.

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