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Merseyside

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Now the season is over with Manchester Utd winning the league and Manchester City winning the FA Cup, initially I was pretty pleased that Liverpools record in Domestic football had been eclipsed. However, I find myself becoming increasingly bitter about the success coming the way of now both the Manchester clubs. At least previously City were nowhere, now it looks like the two Manchester clubs could dominate English football like Merseyside clubs did in the 80s.

As much as I have hated Liverpool for years and I will always despise Gerrard for his actions and attitude, I feel like it is now time for both clubs to put our differences aside and look to work together to put the two Merseyside clubs back where they belong at the pinnacle of English football.

The obvious way to do this, and I know it has surfaced and sank without trace many times before, is with a shared stadium, one that will eclipse Old Trafford or the City ground or any other league ground in Britain. I would like to see us get back to the days of Everton and Liverpool fans chanting "Merseyside" in FA Cup Finals and winning league titles year on year etc.

Previously, Evertonians have probably been slightly more sympathetic to the ground share idea than the Kopites but, with Liverpool slipping further and further behind the top four and with us now seeming to have hit a glass ceiling, maybe it is time to revisit this idea and really start to work together.

I know this will be unbearable to many Evertonians and Liverpudlians alike but we have a proud tradition of a strong empathy between the two clubs with support for Hillsborough, the Rhys Jones tragedy, etc although sadly this has fallen away over recent times. Surely it is time now to build together and re-establish Merseyside as the unquestionable pinnacle of English Football.

Jack Robinson, Liverpool     Posted 30/05/2011 at 16:16:45

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Dave Wilson
1   Posted 30/05/2011 at 18:30:08

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Cut out that "Merseyside" chant and you can count me in.

I was gutted Man Utd won the league, I would rather neither of them held the record.
Tony J Williams
2   Posted 30/05/2011 at 18:36:16

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If it helps us then I'm in... just as long as it doesn't help those horrible feckers across the park.

They are even more bitter than us, the number of texts I received from my Redshite mates after the Champions League final was unreal... then again, I was wearing a Bayern Munich top in 1999.
Ian Tunstead
3   Posted 30/05/2011 at 19:19:31

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It's the only way forward for both teams, it needs to be done but it won't happen because of the bitterness and arrogance of Liverpool fans. They would rather see Everton get relegated than see their own team win the league again, so any idea that could increase Everton's chances of success wouldn't stand a chance if Liverpool have a say on the matter.
Paul Gladwell
4   Posted 30/05/2011 at 19:19:07

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Tony, there were loads wearing Barca shirts too, so who`s bitter?

Jack, sorry mate, they laugh at us trying to instigate ground shares. I hate them and long may they remain trophyless but sadly, if anyone is going to win trophies on Merseyside, it will be us getting the stick and there will be no "Merseyside" shouts from them if it happens. No matter what they say, they hate us more than Man Utd and Chelsea... at least our bitterness is to them only.

Dennis Stevens
5   Posted 30/05/2011 at 19:57:33

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The clubs have somewhat missed the boat on this idea. A few years ago, there were various buckets of public funding (European, regional etc) which could have markedly subsidised the costs, leaving the clubs with a much lower cost figure to split between them. However, it won't happen for many reasons, not the least of which is that it isn't what our Board are looking for ? their exit is planned around the club eventually succumbing to a DK-type deal.
Colin Gee
6   Posted 30/05/2011 at 20:17:50

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All those Manure fans singing "Are you watching, Merseyside?"
Well Merseyside has 27 titles in total, 9 to us and 18 to the RS, Manchester only has 21 in total, 19 to Manure and 2 to City.

Shouldn't they be singing, "Are you watching, Norway?"...
David Hallwood
7   Posted 30/05/2011 at 20:31:26

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I know we all hate the RS but why do Evertonians support Man Utd? Go to Old Trafford and ? no matter who they're playing ? they will be singing songs about scousers.

Now I just happen to be one so I don't like the idea of sitting through 90 minutes of anti-scouse songs, call me humourless if you like.

IMO a plague on both their houses, fuck 'em all... the only team that matters is Everton.
Colin Gee
8   Posted 30/05/2011 at 20:46:16

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Spot on David (#7). Whilst I am happy in one way that Manure have, to quote SAF "knocked Liverpool off their perch", it's done with now, thanks for that... now do one.

Everton is the only team that matters.
Dennis Stevens
9   Posted 30/05/2011 at 20:59:29

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Hear, Hear! David.
Phil Bellis
10   Posted 30/05/2011 at 21:25:58

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When Utd play Liverpool, I want them both to lose. And remember kopites showing their true colours and lack of "City loyalty" in `85 when they were devestated by the thought of us doing the treble? They were cheering for Utd THAT day. Not to mention the relegation party at Villa... And they call us "bitter".
Trevor Mackie
11   Posted 30/05/2011 at 21:06:44

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Never got the "Merseyside" thing, too much like desperate Evertonians bathing in reflected glory.

The groundshare is an excellent example of the spoofery surrounding the "Merseyside" bollocks ? koppites view it as we would if Tranmere came knocking.

The Mancs ? inland, inbred toe-rags ? who's really arsed about them. They're just a bit closer than cockneys, Geordies and Yorkie bars ? they're neither here nor there on my emotional radar, it's all paper hype unless you live half way up the East Lancs.
Brendan O'Doherty
12   Posted 30/05/2011 at 23:58:23

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It's gonna take one hell of a climb to get Merseyside back anywhere near the Manchester dominance which is only really beginning...
David Barks
13   Posted 31/05/2011 at 02:13:37

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Who really cares? A stadium won't make the difference, and Everton don't have the funds to contribute anyway.

City had the nice new stadium for a while and were still shit, until they were bought out multiple times. This last buyout was the key and now they will undoubtedly see many trophies going their way since they can just purchase the likes of Toure and Silva and God knows who else this summer.

Everton just need to be smart with the finances, not overspend right now, and add to the numbers through acquisitions like Bothroyd and maybe Long to add to the bench, as well as selling some players to add a couple of midfielders.

Keep it tight, hope to catch some luck with league results, injuries, and cheap transfers who prove to be worth more than their price. See if we can tread water and try to get 5th or 6th and, if things break our way one season, get into the Champions League spots and go from there.

Eric Myles
14   Posted 31/05/2011 at 04:02:07

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"I feel like it is now time for both clubs to put our differences aside and look to work together to put the two Merseyside clubs back where they belong at the pinnacle of English football."

We don't have the money to acheive that, Jack, and never will have with the current regime in place.

KENWRIGHT OUT!!!
Eric Myles
15   Posted 31/05/2011 at 04:05:04

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I agree with Colin #8, I've got a couple of mates here that support United and they wanted to know why I wasn't going to watch the CL Final.

I told them "Because Everton aren't in it. I hate United when they play us, love them when they play the RS and don't care what happens to them in any other game 'cos they're not important to me."
Alan Williams
16   Posted 31/05/2011 at 07:50:50

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I would rather support City or United than the RS ? it's no contest!

Sorry but they should burn in hell. We should take on the opportunity of being the City's biggest team and let them fall, go bust or just piss off to Norway or Dublin with the rest of their fans!! COYB

Dave Roberts
17   Posted 31/05/2011 at 08:17:32

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Is their domination really assured?

The dosh in European football is mainly in the Champions League and the new UEFA rules regarding club finances will make it considerably more difficult to buy yourself into that competition every season. This will indirectly affect club's ability to buy domestic trophies too as they will be unwilling to overspend in that respect if it costs them a place in European competitions.

I appreciate clubs will try to find a way around the new rules and some clubs will still be better off than others, but nowhere near to the same extent as now.

I hope that's the case anyway!
Gavin Ramejkis
18   Posted 31/05/2011 at 08:17:50

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The RS don't need us for a groundshare as they have money, FFS it would have to be someone really broke not to have more money than Kenshite and Co, conference sides spend more on players than Everton do these days. Can't agree with the share either as I've had decades of those bitter bastards loving every minute of our misery.
Eugene Ruane
19   Posted 31/05/2011 at 08:19:59

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Trevor (11) basically it was a different time and unemployment played a huge part in the 'Merseyside' thing in 84 (us against the world type stuff).

Plus I don't really remember any trouble at derbies then or through the 60's and 70's.

However Heysel changed everything and since then, there has been a slow deterioration of the 'special relationship'.

I, like any good Evertonian, have always 'hated' them and their Kop and 'Big Ron Yeets' and Souness and 'Ehhh...Shanks' and their bannersand ALL their revisionist shite'.

But now there is a burning, violent hatred in many that is, imo, above and beyond.

When Andy King scored his winner in 78, I (aged 19) spent the entire night in town with 'the lads' deliberately goading reds.

Nobody gave me a crack, I didn't see any trouble, they accepted it as...their turn.

Now I have no doubt the same behaviour would see me in The Royal, have glass shards tweezered out of my grid.

As I say, it was a different time.

(re City/Utd, agree completely, not in the least bit interested)
Ed Fitzgerald
20   Posted 31/05/2011 at 08:45:46

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Firstly I support Everton I love them unconditionally like the worst type of romance you could ever embark upon. Its a tale of heartbreak, the odd moment of bliss but I wouldnt swop her for any other and I certainly don't envy other clubs or their trinkets and wall to wall media coverage.

Going on about other clubs and their relative success does make us look bitter. Whatever our failings we are very successful in the grand scheme of things and we are fortunate to support such a great club. That does not mean we should not be ambitious but we must retain our dignity and not sell our souls as some clubs have done.

The chants of Merseyside did once mean something back in the 84 final there was genuine pride from both sets of supporters and lets not forget the whole city was under atttack from the Tories!

Many of us have friends and family who are reds, do we really hate them ? (I don''t think so) lets grow up. I am indifferent to all other football clubs simply because I love Everton so much.
Ray Roche
21   Posted 31/05/2011 at 08:58:08

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Eugene, agree completely. I'm old enough to remember Everton fans going to Anfield with their mates when we were away and vice versa. I even did it myself a few times,as did my old feller. He did it for years, didn't make him less of a blue,though. But now, especially after Heysel,things have changed. I wonder if it's because the RS have had so much success that a fan would need to be at least in his 50's to have any real idea what it was like when the shite were just another team. So, most RS fans have been fed a diet of success and have lost touch with reality,hence all the "King Kenny" shite that we're being subjected to as they see him as a messiah who will take them back to the top. This and the fact that football is now more of a global game with all the hangers on who attach themselves to a top 4 side and get the 'plane from Oslo every other sodding weekend. The days when we could "hate" someone like Shankly but still had a degree of respect for the man for his football knowledge and passion are gone. Nothing would give me more pleasure than seeing them implode, something I wouldn't have said in the 60's due to all my mates (and my brother) who followed them and who we could all enjoy banter with on a level playing field.
Michael Brien
22   Posted 31/05/2011 at 09:00:20

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David #7 Remember the 1996 FA Cup Final ? An Evertonian's nightmare Final !!! I wanted both to lose !!!

As an Evertonain since I was 7 in 1964, I have seen times when we were the top team and times when it's been "them". I remember the 1977 European Cup Final and Liverpool winning 3-1. It was of course their first European Cup win - it was also only a few weeks after that "Bryan Hamilton goal". I recall that Liverpool had a big civic reception and I heard live the comments of a certain Emlyn Hughes. I was a student at the time and the next day one of my mates Laurie - a red - made a point of coming up to me and apologising for Hughes' crass comments.

Different times ? A different era ? Yes I would concede that. However I think there can be a danger in escalating the rivalry between the clubs to the pont of hatred.Do we want a Celtic - Rangers type of rivalry to prevail ? It was only a few years ago that a young Celtic fan was murdered bacause he happened to go the wrong way home through a Rangers area.

I live now near Lincoln and I have to say that I am very surprised and worried that I have to tell some of my friends here that there is no Religious divide between the Everton and Liverpool. Is that how others perceive us ? I hope not.

I remember one of the great Everton songs of the 1960's - " Oh we hate Bill Shankly and we hate St John - but most of all we hate big Ron, And we'll hang the Kopites one by one on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey........." Now I don't for one second believe that Evertonians who sang that were advocating mass murder - it was clearly tongue in cheek. We didn't call it political correctness in the 1960's and 1970's - we called it commonsense and decency.

Rivalry - I am all for that but not hatred. A few years ago now - 1997 to be precise I went to Derby County v Everton at the not long opened Pride Park. It wasn't a long train ride from Lincoln. I was amazed after the game to see groups of Derby fans after the match at the station looking for Nott'm Forest fans travelling back from some away game. Hatred is what leads to the violence that marred the game in the 1980's - not the only factor I know, but an important factor nontheless.

Tommy Smith was a renowned Liverpool skipper - in a book of his shortly after the 1977 European Cup win he coomented on Emlyn Hughes' behaviour at the civic reception. He stated that there was a rivalry between Everton and Liverpool but not a war. He also stated that Hughes comments brought shame on Hughes but also on Liverpool FC - and he was very critical of Hughes. Coming from such a "renowned Red" I thought his comments were very "enlightening and very apt". A different era ? Well actually commonsense and decency transcend eras in my opinion. Rivalry yes - but hatred no. The consequences of hatred are very far ranging and dangerous and ultimately lead to violence.

John Audsley
23   Posted 31/05/2011 at 09:24:57

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Yep

As a kid in the eighties loads was made of the "special" relationship blues/reds had, thats long gone and has been for ages

Im blue and so are my 2 little lads, my sis is red and so are her slightly bigger sons

My Mum (who is a Leeds fan) HATES derby games and everything they bring

I dont give a fuck about the shite or any team from manchester

All i care about is Everton, and thats all i ever will care about
Michael Brien
24   Posted 31/05/2011 at 09:28:23

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Ray # 20. Back in the mid 1970's when I was a student - I couldn't afford to watch Everton away so I would go to Anfield to see the Liverpool match. So for a period of 3 or 4 seasons from 1975-76 I would be at Goodison one week and Anfield the next.

Did it make me less of a Blue. Absolutely not - when at Goodison I went through all the tension associated with and involved in "following/supporting your team". At Anfield I could relax - I wasn't bothered about the result, I wasn't "emotionally invoved"

Anyone recall the 1st game of the 1974-75 season ? Liverpool were away at Luton Town whilst the Blues were playing Derby County at Goodison. What was the reaction of the crowd at Goodison when a certain Bill Shankly took his seat in the Main Stand at Goodison ? A standing ovation !! A different era ? It's still possible to repect great rivals.
Gerry Grimes
25   Posted 31/05/2011 at 09:41:43

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Man Utd have put up a new banner at the Stretford End wiith the number 19 on it.
Apparently it celebrates the number of touches they got against Barca on Saturday night.
Andy Kay
26   Posted 31/05/2011 at 09:24:04

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Don't want anything to do with those horrible twats across the park until they start to take responsibilty for 29 May 1985. A few days earlier, I don't remember much empathy at the possibility of a blue treble.

I remember going into work on the Monday after Big Norm curled his winner past Our Nev to be met by a lovable Red who couldn't wait to tell me the story of the huge roar in his household when the goal went in. The old dear next door tapped on the window to ask "Have Everton scored?"... "No, United have, now fuck off, Bluenose!" was the reply . How times change eh. By the end of the following week we had been banned from European Football. Gobshites!

People comment in the Media quite rightly about the injustices of Hillsborough and the Bradford fire , the deaths of the Leeds fans in Turkey ect while Heysel is Stalinesqly erased from the sporting history books. When the Free Michael Shields Buckets were being passed around the Stadiums how many were passed around for Martin Georgiev and his family for what he went though? Never mind lets all just sing Johnny Cash and have a Flag day.

If Everton can't do it then I'd gladly have United break every record Liverpool have had. The 'famous Kop' with its tremendous humour and racism. The "6th" European Cup bus. Rafa and his 'small club' comments. Ex-players like Emlyn Hughes and Phil Thompson banging on and on for years about Shankly while taking every chance to slag off Everton before United became a threat. The "Merseyside, Merseyside" thing only ever surfaces when Liverpool are having a trophy drought and they couldn't give a fuck about us the rest of the time so why should we get into bed with them?

No, mate, this Blue has a long memory and will NEVER LET THEM FORGET one of saddest days at a football stadium.

Ray Roche
27   Posted 31/05/2011 at 10:11:46

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Michael Brien

You're right about the Shankly thing, I always tell any RS fans that Shankly,in his own words,said that he was always made more welcome after his retirement at Everton than he was at Liverpool.I saw him several times walking down Goodison Road to take his seat in the Main Stand and he was always happy to join in a bit of banter with us Blues. He was a football man, end of story. Compare that with the creep Benitez.


Andy Kay

Thanks,mate you've saved me the trouble of writing my own thoughts of the post Shankly era.
Ed Fitzgerald
28   Posted 31/05/2011 at 10:23:40

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Andy

You are letting your bitterness blind you. Would you really want to swap their european cups and 18 titles for the shame of heysel and the tragedy of hillsborough? Get a grip of yourself.

Most Liverpool fans like Everton fans live in or were originally from the City. As much as we bait them about being from Cornwall or Norway or wherver its a an urban myth that is useful to take the piss out of them.

Do you want to end up with the sectarian bigotry of rangers and celtic? Of course they take the piss when we lose, just as we do and that is fine. If you can't take don't go the match. Shankly was wrong it is only a game.
Tom Hughes
29   Posted 31/05/2011 at 10:18:35

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Back to the original article.... I think it is most important that Evertonians realise that Goodison Park is our club's greatest asset.... IN EVERY RESPECT. Its value is almost immeasureable. Also, contrary to some people's belief, sharing can never resolve all the issues that currently see us languishing behind the likes of the Manchester clubs.... In fact in many respects such an arrangement could greatly detract from what we have now. Our identity is strongly tied into, and accentuated by the "Grand old lady" itself. The same applies to Anfield in some ways.... in otherwords the sum of the parts has greater value than any potential unified stadium project. Personally, I feel it is impossible to rationalise both clubs identity (and indeed needs) into one stadium. Although I can understand people being attracted to the apparent "no-brainer" of shared costs etc, I don't believe it stands up to medium/long-term scrutiny.
Trevor Mackie
30   Posted 31/05/2011 at 10:05:38

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I enjoy the hatred/dislike/rivalry because it's childish, football is all "king of the castle" stuff, escapism .

It is the "entity" the "overall personna" a club portrays not individuals that is the focus.

When the cameras pan to the kop and someone shouts "action", cue ynwa - I hate it with a passion, but when it was affordable and I used to go to both grounds I wished we had something similar.

Despite the disparity in honours since the 70s I still think of overtaking them and can't bring myself to admit they're better than us in anyway shape or form.

So with due respect to friends and close family who are Reds - fuck 'em.
Andy Kay
31   Posted 31/05/2011 at 10:39:24

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Who said anything about sectarian bigotry? You say the " shame of heysel and the tragedy hillsborough "
I don't see much shame and embarressment and rememberance from the current Liverpool FC and its supporters over Heysel . I don't recall saying i wanted to swap their titles for anything? what I did say is i dont want anything to do with them and i'm happy with that and don't need to get over myself thank you very much.
Eugene Ruane
32   Posted 31/05/2011 at 10:05:56

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Michael Brien (21) you say "Well actually commonsense and decency transcend eras in my opinion".

I really (genuinely!) wish I could believe that but...I don't.

I think it USED to be the case but..not anymore.

Of course I'm talking in general terms (nb: hard to use specifics), but I think we have, in the last 20 years, lost a LOT of 'commonsense and decency'.

Evidence?

Nothing concrete, just my belief/opinion, given how the world around me appears to have changed.

And why?

I believe that when what used to be called 'the working class' was targeted by Thatcher, in a kind of 'buy a house, join the middle-class or fuck off', it was the birth of what is now sometimes referred to a the 'underclass'.

And basically we're now three or four generations in.

I don't know if anyone has been following a programme called 'The Scheme' (see your bbciplayer) but it has depressed and shocked me in equal measure and watching it, I can't for a second think 'this is nobody's fault'.

There was one feller on there who looked after his garden and his missus kept their house spic-and-span.

This couple were presented almost as an..um...oddity.

An oddity because almost every other fucker featured, appeared to be on heroin, or bevvy, or heroin and bevvy, or in court, or jail, or in jail on heroin, or....

Now I understand there's no show if EVERYONE keeps their house-garden nice, but even so, the scale of the problems are incredible AND....this is just ONE estate near Kilmarnock.

In a spiral (like the one presented) of pure hopeless waste and feral day-to-day 'living', decency and commonsense are bound to be victims.

And when they are, extreme hatred and violence prosper.

I'd say the evidence is sadly (threateningly) staring us in the face.

Apologies as I realise this is veering from the OP and also realise this is classic 'an oul-arse writes' (but I have at least followed the 'thread')
David Ellis
33   Posted 31/05/2011 at 11:32:07

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Decency and commonsense - in the 1970s?????? Lots of rose tinted spectacles being worn on here today.

Football in the 1970s was generally awful in England and the feeling of decline even stronger than expressed on these pages. I dispair that so many in England have this constant belief that somehow things were better in the past. They weren't. High unemployment, outdoor toilets, drug culture, crime rates, football violence, police brutality, treatment of gays, access to internet, inflation, interest rates, fall in real house prices- all a lot worse in the 1970s. Everton were also pretty ordinary from 1971-79. No trophies and qualified for Europe twice (early exits both times).

Yes there is a lot of poor behaviour out there today - but twas always the case.
Michael Brien
34   Posted 31/05/2011 at 12:03:56

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David #32 - I wasn't suggesting that there was commonsense and decency abounding in the 1960's and 1970's merely pointing out that today you have to seem to give something like that a label i.e. political correctness. So much of the so called pc lobby is total garbage because they seem to find fault where there is none and ignore real injustices.

Actually in saying we were poor 1971-79 - you ignore 1974-75 when we should have won the title ( we finished 4th 2 or 3 points behind Derby but we lost 2 home games 2-3 that should have been won as we were 2-0 up in both) also 1976-77 - 1978-79 when we reached the League Cup Final, FA Cup Semi Final and the next 2 seasons finished 3rd & 4th.

Anyway to get back to the point - Rivalry with Liverpool yes of course - whenever an Everton team beats Liverpool then I take great delight. Hatred ? Well if we are to take the word at its true meaning then sorry rule me out of that one - events such as the Haulocast, organisations such as the Ku Klu Klan and the history of the Balkans show what hatred can lead to. Dramatic ? Well it starts in a small way then it escalates; just like the worst forest fire can start with a small spark.

As you say Ray #26 Shankly was a great rival but one worthy of respect - a far cry from Benitez. And as regards the banner at Old Trafford -well I know it's another rivalry - but the principle is the same. I find that the banner has not been removed shows that MUFC tolerate it and therefore approve. It should be removed - It show disrespect to an opposing club. What some people in sport seem to have lost is the importance of being gracious in victory and in defeat. I find it appalling that players today surround the Referee whenever a decision is given against them - it used to be just when it was a controversial decision - now it's every decision. One thing I think Moyes should be praised for is that most of the time Everton don't seem to behave in this way.

It must be hard for all you Evertonians who are England supporters - do you cheer Gerrard? He has come in for some stick from Evertonians - a hate figure ? Well though I wouldn't go as far as that - Steven Gerrard is one of the players I most dislike. I think just like Lampard and Cole he represents all that's worst about the modern player and that other bloke whatsis name ? You know the Premier League Footballer ?

Mind you I am sure that someone at Man United's commercial dept has probably worked out that a shirt 11 with Giggs costs less than one with 11 and the letters Premier League Footballer.
Dave Roberts
35   Posted 31/05/2011 at 11:58:52

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It's certainly the case that I would like nothing better than for Everton to acquire a brand new, state of the art stadium at a location that everybody was happy with. However, that is extremely unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future and probably not in my lifetime (I'm 63)

I would not be happy with the prospect of a shared stadium and I firmly believe most Evertonians would feel the same way. We would suffer in terms of identity and it would always be perceived, no matter what the precise circumstances, as Everton hitching a ride on the Shite's brighter star and fuller wallet. So it looks like we will be at Goodison for quite some time yet and the issue is really about how Goodison is perceived and employed.

It can be viewed as a ball and chain forever holding the club back and a counter indicator to inward investment. A painful boil, and I have to admit I have been guilty of seeing the old girl in that light.

But it is possible to turn a boil into a beauty spot. It is the first and oldest surviving football stadium in the world. It is quaint, atmospheric, inefficient and unkempt. But instead of considering all those factors in a negative light, with a little imagination they could become positives. The quaintness and the history should be emphasised. The fact it is the oldest and the first should be proclaimed, not on a brass plate in the foyer but as adjectives attached to its name, outside on the walls. Stately homes are not usually more warm and comfortable than a modern detached footballer's pad in Alderley Edge or Formby but which impresses the most? While everybody else is pursuing a stainless steel and breezeblock 'modern' stadium, why doesn't our quaint and otherworldly club turn the whole thing on its head and proceed in the direction of preservation, history and tradition? Over every turnstile should read a sign saying...Welcome to Goodison Park, the first and oldest football stadium'.

There's not much wrong with the Bullens and Gwladys exterior that removal of the industrial cladding and its replacement with buttressed brick curtain walls couldn't solve. The Park end and Main stand pitchside frontages could be embellished to match the older ironwork of the older stands even if it was done in fibreglass. The club needs to make an asset out of what it perceives as Goodison's disadvantages just like Speke Hall has made a National Trust icon out of its creeky and draughty condition. There are even ways (I am led to believe) of improving the situation regarding obstructed views without the wholesale rebuilding of stands. The awful lower Bullens could be turned into a state of the art concourse area or corporate boxes and the Park end extended to take up the shortfall in seats that would result.

If the club perceived Goodison in this way, and let it be known to the world that she was perceived in this way and acted according to that perception, then Goodison could become an advantage and an inducement to investment rather than the opposite.

It is possible to make a silk purse out of a cow's ear. All it needs is the will and determination to make it happen.
Mike Gwyer
36   Posted 31/05/2011 at 12:49:28

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Ed #27.

Appealing for peace is easy, however, erasing the memories will never happen. In my opinion the RS are a team who gratified themselves in bringing as much hardship as possible to the blue half of the city.

The persona of their club, from the Kop to fuckers that fill it, leaves you with a feeling of dread. Yes, they have a pact, from the BBC & Sky to any media rag that you care to mention. Take a look at their recent buyout - only those fuckers could come out of that situation smelling of roses!! Then again, we could only read what the BBC and Sky wanted us to read.

Peace - you are fucking joking.



Ray Roche
37   Posted 31/05/2011 at 13:20:23

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Dave Roberts, that's a great idea, pushing the fact that Goodison is the oldest purpose built football ground in the world. It might make visiting fans appreciate that it's not just "a dump" as they like to call it but a part of football history and that they should feel privileged to be there.
Phil Bellis
38   Posted 31/05/2011 at 13:24:04

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Dave @34
I'm pleased to see you;ve finally taken notice of what us Luddite unrealists were saying all through the Kirkby debacle
Goodison would be an asset to a Board with any sense - surely they could get some financial help to preserve "the first purpose-built football stadium in the world"
As for that shower, I'm with the Grand Old Ladies of Kemlyn Road ... "the sooner they're back in the 2nd Division, where they belong, the better!
Michael Brien
39   Posted 31/05/2011 at 13:18:47

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Dave Roberts # 34 - I totally agree, I think Goodison suffered from several years of neglect. The decision to build a one tier stand at the Park End in 1994 was in my opinion a missed opportunity. There is a lot of space behind that stand - which is used for car parking - no houses etc - so it would be possible to build a stand with twice the number of seats at that end of the ground.

In my opinion when the club had the opportunity to develop Goodison but didn't take it. It's not too late though - with careful planning and if we accept that it's something that would have to be done long tern in stages - Goodison could be redeveloped. After all Old Trafford in it's present form was started in 1992.

As regards ground share - I would be in favour - but only and I stress only if it was seen to be an "equal partnership". If it was regarded as Everton being invited to join LIverpool's planned stadium - then no way. It must be promoted as an equal partnership or not at all.
Eugene Ruane
40   Posted 31/05/2011 at 13:35:57

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David Ellis (32) - your list of how things were WORSE in the 70's puts me in mind of Tony J. Williams "29% of all statistics are made up on the spot".

Let's have a look shall we.

You say..

"Football in the 1970s was generally awful in England and the feeling of decline even stronger than expressed on these pages".

Subjective (and imo, revisionist).

Everton may not have won a title between 70 and 85 but...we COULD have.

Can we now?

HONESTLY!?

As a regular 70's match-goer, I was of course pissed off coming out of games we..LOST!

But people WEREN'T going to the games saying "Aren't the 70's grim and dirty plus I feel the game is in decline".

You say..

"I dispair that so many in England have this constant belief that somehow things were better in the past. They weren't. High unemployment, outdoor toilets, drug culture, crime rates, football violence, police brutality, treatment of gays, access to internet, inflation, interest rates, fall in real house prices- all a lot worse in the 1970s. Everton were also pretty ordinary from 1971-79. No trophies and qualified for Europe twice (early exits both times).

Sorry but you just...lose the run of yourself.

Crime was worse THEN!?

Fact: (source, House Of Commons documents available online to all) Between 1970 and 2000 the prison figures doubled for men AND women.

As for the murder figures/rate...well, I'm not going to say, I'll let you figure out if you think they're better or worse now.

Look, there was OF COURSE stuff that was worse then and there is OF COURSE plenty about life that is better now.

But the POINT is/was about 'commonsense and decency' in people ("outside toilets, interests rates" wtf!??).

I'm not saying there definitely WERE more people with commonsense and decency back than, I just definitely THINK there were.

Ed Fitzgerald
41   Posted 31/05/2011 at 14:25:49

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Andy

I am afraid your hatred of Liverpool and bitterness blinds you to any rational analysis. Are you suggesting that all LFC fans feel no sense of shame of what happened at Heysel? You can speak with confidence on this can you?

We have a fair share of nasty, racist knobheads too Andy or are you in denial over this?

Eugene as for your look back to the 70s. I agree that Everton were far better to watch then and actually came closer to winning anything that we have witnessed under the current regime.

Trevor Mackie
42   Posted 31/05/2011 at 15:02:32

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70s vintage everton were shite bar the occasional flurry - because labone, Ball, Kendal, Harvey were recent memories plus we could still argue the toss with koppites - then rome '77 came and went we we're fucked.

The social aspects well that's a personal thing - I don't think people ever change - the passion was greater because football was still affordable and depended on skilful players rather than athletes, but it was changing. When Duncan Mackenzie was fucked off by Gordon Lee it was a milestone - we followed the model of busy, workmanlike liverpool - just not as well, till kendal.
Dave Roberts
43   Posted 31/05/2011 at 15:20:01

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Phil Bellis

Don't try and take credit for what others suggest. Many of the arguments against DK where luddite then and remain so now and were based on stopping something they didn't like rather than suggesting a way forward.

Whatever value my ideas my have now they are based on the fact we have no alternative but to remain at Goodison for the foreseeable future. If an alternative arises I may change my view. Which means I am not a luddite and happy to say so!
Ed Fitzgerald
44   Posted 31/05/2011 at 15:30:55

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Trevor

We came a lot closer to winning the league with Bingham and Lee than we ever have with Moyes. The side that had dobson, king, latchford et al were far more entertaining than we have had of late.
Dave Roberts
45   Posted 31/05/2011 at 15:46:54

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Yeah Trevor but that was in the days before Sky reinvented footy and the playing field was more level than it is now. Burnley won the league in the sixties....how far back do you wanna go?

If Moyes had been our manager in the 70's we may have won the league...who knows.
Trevor Mackie
46   Posted 31/05/2011 at 15:50:46

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Ed, it was indeed the point I was rather lamely trying to make.

At the time I remember grumbling but in retrospect if we had that team now we'd clean up.

It's all relative - always.

If we get relegated to oblivion - in 40 yrs time some fans will be heard saying if only we had Neville, Anichebe, Osman, Hibbo.

I'm on a diet but I desperately need cake now.
Ed Fitzgerald
47   Posted 31/05/2011 at 16:54:15

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Trevor

Apologies, for my error. For those of certain age the 70's were halycon days compared to some of the sterile football we have witnessed during more recent times.

Dave we wouldn't have won the league with Moysie he is simply not positive enough. I quite ike him as a manager and he has really good points but he is 'stuck' in his thinking partly because of circumstances i.e. lack of money but also because of a lack of vision.
Phil Bellis
48   Posted 31/05/2011 at 16:55:19

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No argument with you, Dave except "Don't try and take credit for what others suggest" - I have always advocated stage-by-stage redevelopment...trawl back if you so wish
My opposition to leaving Goodison for a mid-range concrete outhouse was based very much on emotional attachment to tthe old girl and the sure knowledge that we were being lied to
You were all in favour, I seem to recall, based on there being, in your view, no other option
Now, suddenly, you accept there is

Michael Brien
49   Posted 31/05/2011 at 17:07:25

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Eugene Ruane - as a regular in the 1970's I am sure you remember the title that should have been ours in 1974-75? The two home games we lost to Carlisle and Sheffield United both should have been won - we were leading 2-0 in both. In the Sheffield United match David Smallman scored a "blinder" - how could we lose a match when scoring a goal like that !! Had both those games been won we would have been Champions if memory serves me right.

You responded to the pont made by David Ellis that the game was in decline in the 1970's. I would agree with your comments and I think we definitely could have and should have won a title between 1970 and 1985 - if Bingham and Lee had been braver in their tactics I think we would have.

As regards the game in the 1970s, there may be more money "sloshing around" now ? but I can't recall Fifa making the news headlines for corruption as they have been doing in the last few days.

Our Red neighbours have had much to crow about have they ? Not so long ago they were fretting over ownership issues. Refresh my memory please are these the "Good Guy Yanks" that own them now as oppose to the " Bad Guy Yanks " that were there before. Will all these mega rich owners be around in 5 or 10 years time? There is saying that money easily gained is easily squandered. We seem to be in the era of the mega rich owner so should we be jealous of Liverpool or Man City? I am not; for when the proverbial hits the fan as I am sure it will do eventually -it's the clubs that have remained truest to the real principles of the game that will be in the strongest position.

Idealistic? Yes I'll plead guilty to that - but I don't envy Chelsea with Ambramovic. He may have billions - but it seems to be him that's sanctioned the signing of Torres. £50M - 1 goal in 18 games is it ? Doesn't make Beckford's record seem so bad. How soon before the Yanks and the Arab billionaires start wanting to tell their coaches who to sign ?

Marx may not have had football in mind when he said "capitalism contains within it the seeds of its own destruction." (Or words to that effect!) But the strivings of some including Liverpool FC if not tempered with some common sense will see another club go the way of Leeds United. So I wouldn't want to swop with the Reds at all. And anyway when the going gets tough Kenny gets going...... out the door!!!!
Colin Fitzpatrick
50   Posted 31/05/2011 at 20:10:00

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As Tom [#28] stated, back to the OP.

With due respect to Jack, this shared stadium idea surfaces every now and again and every time I'm bewildered when somebody claims it's "obvious" or that "it makes good business sense" or offers the inevitable "it's a no-brainer".

By way of explanation, I'm always bewildered when the prospect of a shared stadium is offered as a solution, as to me it isn't an obvious solution at all. Was it an obvious solution when the future of the Olympic stadium was being debated and West Ham and Tottenham were seeking ownership?

No, it was never mentioned, just as it has never been mentioned in Manchester, Glasgow or anywhere else major British football clubs ply their trade in cities with more than one club. Yes, it has happened in other countries, most notably in Germany and Italy for instance, yet it has been far from an overwhelming success to say the least.

As for it making good business sense, again how? Where are the reports indicating this to be the case? Has anyone conducted a study? The fact is they haven't; a shared stadium just sounds like a good idea in the same way as living with your mother in law does but the practicalities are somewhat different! Even a basic perusal of both clubs tells you that they both have specific and very different target markets to exploit which would dictate stadium design and whilst one can demonstrate the need for increased capacity the other can't.

At the risk of upsetting quite a few fellow Evertonians, I'll state the obvious, Everton can't even demonstrate a business case for a new stadium, yes they can state a desire to increase their commercial revenue streams but that's different from demonstrating demand. Where are the sell out crowds? Where are the ticket waiting lists? Are all the lounges over subscribed? It's painful but the answer to all of those questions indicates we can't demonstrate one.

My own opinion, for what it's worth, is that the only people who think it's a no-brainer are those who think it sounds like a good idea, usually politicians, or people who can't see an alternative; not surprising really when we have a board that, having spent the past decade trying to address the problem, have come up with nothing deliverable whatsoever; unlike the board across the park who will soon be announcing their plans to move their club forward ? and let me assure you it won't be a shared stadium. The sooner the sale at Goodison is concluded the better for everyone. ;-)

Denis Byrne
51   Posted 31/05/2011 at 19:59:03

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Brilliant, Dave Roberts #35.

I had convinced myself that I was going mad thinking we should promote and celebrate the Old Lady. Walking through Stanley Park v Sunderland, I came across four young Mackems asking me the way to a pub, so I said I'll walk with them, have a bit of footy talk and show them a nice old ale house where they might not get kicked in if they act sensible like. We reached Goodison and three of them start taking piss ? "It's an old tin shed, like", "Call that a Premier League ground, like, haway man!"...

At which point I stopped them and gave them an education on the Old Lady, all her 'firsts' and that, if they want to enjoy a nice bevvy, to take care not to diss the beauty. Three of them were nobheads but one of the lads listened carefully, nodding and told his mates to "Shut the fuck up like and listen will ya".

Don't know what I'm trying to say here, but I guess if a teenager from Sunderland is open to challenge his mates and his own biases and learn about a football heritage, then there is hope.

Gavin Ramejkis
52   Posted 01/06/2011 at 07:24:55

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Denis #51 that was one of the arguments put forward during DK that new meant better, it's not always the case, all new guarantees is new. In the case of some new houses and their so called ten year guarantees thats also a joke as those NHBC guarantee inspections are paid for by the builders of the property, straight away they lose independence and become worthless.

I'll bet the RS owners will be looking to redevelop Mordor rather than move. As Colin so painfully put it, we don't have justification for even that with the present setup.
Fergus McCarthy
53   Posted 01/06/2011 at 12:40:50

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Read through all this, and football is just not much fun anymore!

I followed the blues home and away through the 1960s and have great memories of singing, chants, banter and meeting people from all over. I have lived overseas and love all sports and Everton most.

Went to Twickenham for rugby last Saturday in a thrilling final between Leicester and Saracens. Fans decked out in tiger outfits or wearing fez or full arab regalia, plenty of banter, tons of beer, crowds mixed up together, men women and children. Teams knock the hell out of each other, give three cheers for other team at the end then clap each other off. Fans shouting "good win mate" to opposition, and continuing to party. Total fun day out, even for a neutral.

I said to my wife and daughter, "This is the way football used to be, you know!" They didn't believe me. Sad. I still will not wear the colour red, but that was just fun and banter. My cousin is a red, which proves there is insanity in the family. Don't hate him though. Where has the fun and humour gone? Why has it been replaced by misery and hate? Carpe Diem.

Trevor Mackie
54   Posted 01/06/2011 at 12:52:55

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Carpe Diem - are they still fished for in Walton Hall Park lake?
Fergus McCarthy
55   Posted 01/06/2011 at 14:11:11

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Trevor 54
I had a whale of a time there and was really welkome.
Tony J Williams
56   Posted 01/06/2011 at 17:03:52

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Fergus, there is a plaice and a time for that kind of post.

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