I agree but not because the players aren't putting the effort in but the fact is they're not really that good. As fans we love to have our heroes and because of that we completely over-hype the players.

I looked at Man U's midfield of Fletcher, Cleverley, Park and Wellbeck today and thought what and average midfield. But they were better than our midfield of 'world class' Fellaini, 'great potential' U21 captain Rodwell, £9 million Russian international Bily, 'the scouse Messi' Osman, and 'the mustard' Coleman. Up front we have the less agile than my 64 year old dad, Saha, whilst in defence we have the master of hoofball Jagielka, everyone's favourite scouser Hibbert, a keeper who never claims a cross, hard man Heitinga and 'England's 2nd best left back' Baines.

We neeed to wake up as fans and admit we don't have any superstar players, they're all at best average and some are just plain shite.

A lad sat near me today said we're all huff and puff and no skill. Someone replied "which one's huff and which one's puff?" Take your pick.

Typical knee-jerk response after a defeat.
Fact- a squad that cost 250 million beat a squad that cost about fifty million.

However, we ran them close and played well in parts, despite being without Cahill, Neville and Drenthe.

All this sack Kenwright, dump Moyes stuff conveys a lack of understanding of where we are, and what we've got. Get some perspective, please.

Actually I thought we played relatively well today. What we lack and have for many years is a couple of forwards who can put the ball in the net. Unfortunately those types cost money which we don't have at present.

Playing Osman behind Saha was just one big mistake. It needed someone with guile and energy to run from midfield into the penalty area and help Saha. (Osman looked like he was partly disinterested except for one or two bright moments.)

This was a repeat of what happened at Chelsea. Arsenal showed that Chelsea can be turned over once you run at their defence. That's why they leaked 5 goals today.

I have to disagree.

The players are doing ok. Not great, but ok.

However, they are hamstrung by a manager who doesn't believe we can compete.

Man U aren't as chock full of great players as they used to be. No Ronaldo, Scholes, Giggs. Many of the new faces certainly aren't up to their standards.

Fellaini is a better player than any of the current manu midfield. Rodwell is very decent too.

So far as I can tell there are three main differences.

1) Belief. ManU players are not old that they can't compete. Ours are constantly hearing how little we spend and how we shouldn't really be doing well against richer teams.

2) Balance. Man U have genuine wingers in the team and for the most part play their players in their best positions. Moyes has no excuse after 10 years to consistently be playing his players in areas they are not suited to. Bily has had his confidence shot by playing him as a winger. Looks like Barkley's next in line.

3) Tactics & coaching - You watch any decent side and there is movement off the ball. Players support one-another.

We appear to have a different view: pass the ball sideways till the opposition have settled into a defensive formation, then attempt to cross the ball - often from a shitty angle - into the box for our 1 striker, surrounded by several 6ft+ centre halves, to try to head into the net. Because we're so confident in the ability of Saha, its fine for his nearest support to regularly be 30 yards away.

Moyes is obviously happy with this, because its been the same for 10 years.

Our whole team is nervy as fuck because the team is bereft of confidence, with no-one showing for the ball because there is no movement. We thus end up with hoofball, hospital passes and frustration.

When walter smith was in charge, playing Steve Watson as a lone striker and signing has-beens I felt the club needed new direction. I've felt the same for a few years now.

We need a bright young manager who is full of enthusiasm, belief and can work with a £60M / year wage bill, and our very good youth setup to compete against richer teams and our peers. We need a new David Moyes.

The fact that we can still run the so called top teams close suggests to me that these "world class" players aren't actually all that.

A number are clearly phenomenal (most of them are at Barca, and Silva at City) but most are only marginally better than the average player. My belief is that most professionals are pretty uniform across the board, with a certain level of skill and competence.

The fact is that the rich clubs, particularly their owners, don't have a clue about the sport, and as such get mugged into paying ludicrous amounts of money for players not deserving of such investment. A great example is Carroll of course.

No, Everton can compete, even with our current crop of limited players, but what is missing is the right coach with a philosophy and vision to play "football" and bring the best out of the team.

We still need investment to move to the next level but let's not give up completely. A good coach can and will make a big difference.

Phil Pellow, this is absolutely not response to a defeat. As I said on another thread, I thought we did okay today. It's a response to some dire stuff this season and to some players who no-one could possibly say are playing to their best. I don't think it's lack of effort either. It's lack of belief.

I looked at Man Utd's midfield of Fletcher, Cleverly, Park and Welbeck and thought they were average. But they were better than ours??? Did you by any chance watch the second half? Or had you had too many shandies by then?

By the way, nobody said that we have world class players; "You need lot's of money for that". But we do have players that try to give 100% in every game.

I agree with Andy. This isn't in response to today's defeat. Or to the last 4 or 5 games where we've played the richer clubs.

Certainly I've been decided about Moyes for several seasons now. Our team will play the same against Man U as it does against Brentford. Same stale football, same players played out of position. Too many times, same result.

It's not a way forward, especially now the money tap is turned off.

The wins against Blackburn and Fulham this season were really undeserved and have just papered over the cracks.

Wayne, you could also say the defeats against QPR and Liverpool and the draw at Villa were undeserved. I'm just glad October is over and hope we can start to kick on and gain some confidence in the next few games.

I also thought we did okay today. This is not a great Man Utd team and, with a bit more belief, they were there for the taking.

I have to take issue though with the amount of cards we have picked up recently. Today was not a dirty game but Rodwell, Coleman and Fellaini all got booked for their first tackle/foul. The other week at City we had 5 booked and hardly put a tackle in all game. As for Rodwell's ludicrous red card in the derby enough said already...

Man Utd players fell over at every slightest contact. Also we should have had 2 penalties in the 2nd half, one handball and the other right at the end for the shove on Gueye. Man Utd would have got a pen had either of those incidents been at the other end.

Also, we played far too deep today with both Fellaini and Rodwell sat right in front of the back 4. Heitinga is more than capable of bringing the ball out from the back and at times was waving our 2 midfielders out of his way.

Also Saha is wasted up front on his own, and was better when Vellios came on, because he can hold the ball up, but they only had 5 mins together before Saha was replaced by Gueye.

We should always play 2 up top especially at home, but yet again we had an overcrowded midfield who spent too long going sideways instead of forwards. We were comfortable at the back and were much the better team in the 2nd half.

I would like to see Moyes come out and have a go at all the stupid yellow and red cards we have had recently. All the other managers do it and seem to get away with it. How can Dalglish have the cheek to come out in public and defend that diving little cheat Suarez???

Mark @11 - agree with most of your points but lets be a little balanced. There was no way on earth that that 'shove' on Gueye was a pen. Both players were looking at the ball and Gueye actually treads on Evras foot before they clatter into each other.

Also Fellaini did not get a yellow for his 'first challenge'. He stupidly kicked out at a manu player at the end as he was going past him and tripped him up. Fully deserved to get booked and a stupid thing to do right at the end of the game.

Still, the performance has been a lot worse before this season so some light in the tunnel, (just hope its not a train!)

Denis @12
sorry, but with the greatest of respect I don't agree
I was sat in the street end, had a great view, and it was a nailed on pen

Jamie, against QPR we didn't really create a lot. A newly promoted team played away to us with two forwards and came away with 3 pts.

Against the RS, the rodwell decision prevented the game from ever being a contest so no-one can really complain about that.

I can't remember much about the villa game, but I don't recall thinking we'd been robbed, like blackburn or fulham fans would. Today was probably one of our better performances to be frank. We created chances and actually bossed the game for periods, even if we lacked bite.

We only saw two forwards for 5 minutes which was disappointing too. I thought we looked ok with vellios and saha both on the pitch.

All season long I have seen penalties given for silly pushes and handballs, but not for us.

Fellaini was the best player on the pitch by miles.

Mark, I watched the game on German TV and saw about 5 replays, sorry but for me was not a pen.

Until Moyes goes we won't really know if they can play.

Ryan, I have previous on this, but I agree totally, Fella was the best player today. No missed tackles, all power in Midfield, simple passes and him and Jack looked the part to me.

Have to agree though, was not his first foul, maybe 6th and Jacks turn and pull back of the Man U guy was an easy decision for the ref. BTW I thought Halsey was poor today, but the liner near me on the Top Balcony side was worse and his comedy act at the end made me laugh.

Bily did not make me laugh, Louis does not and Jags passing even less so. Trying to stay on topic, but Johnny looked the part to me.

Soz, forgot to say, when we sold Wayne I said to anyone who would listen that he is wasted stranded up front and to get the best of him CM is where I would play him. Today I thought he played well, but I must say that every time Fella went near him he was moaning to Halsey and that also did not make me laugh.

The only time he did get to a tackle before Fella was in about minute 85 and he hurt himself doing it.

Same old tactics game after game. Why do opposing managers bother to watch our games before we play them.

Same old formation that doesnt work, One up front with one behind. Cahill or Osman or saha.

First half with no penetration, hardly any chances created, no pace in midfield, no one getting up in support. No ball retention. No players moving into space.

Go a goal behind. Then same tactics at the start of the second half.

More huff and puff. Then a substitution on the hour. A midfielder brought on. More huff and puff. No chances created. then 15 minutes from time, a forward comes on.

Desparate attempts to score. Chase the game. More huff and puff. game over.

We are the only team in the premiership that adopts these tactics. Gates are plummeting as well as interest.

is it any wonder that we are hardly chosen for tv . Games against Chelsea and Man Utd not screened. Sky and ESPN must draed having to show Everton. The viewers must turn over in droves to a DIY programme on Discovery home and leisure.

I for one and totally fed up. exasperated, bored and completely pissed off with the team selections and tactics.

Before the usual Dreary Dave disciples chirp up with how we won once at chelsea on penalties and reached a couple of european games where the tactics were even worse than the domestic matches, ..kenwright doesnt chose the tactics, decide to buy Bily, play midfielders up front and leave 3 forwards on the bench and wave white flags when we travel to Utd , Arsenal and most grievously Liverpool.

I can only assume Moyes did his Coaching badges at night school or at some Open University correspondence course.

The case for dragging him into a taxi for a ride to the PFA offices so Gordon Taylor can negotiate his pay off is unanswerable.

Phil (#2) The Man U team that started the game today, 8 of them combined, cost £24m, 4 of that 8 coming through their youth system.

Rooney, De Gea and Jones fees were in double figures, and apart from Rooney, I wouldn't say De Gea and Jones are any better than what we have in their respected positions.

Denis @17
unlike you I was 25 ft away and at the ground sat in the Everton end, its called Gwladys Street.You should try it some time
please don't come on here trying to tell me it was not a penalty when you are watching from a German TV channel

What is this love affair with Fellaini - yes he can control the ball and give a 5 yard pass. He cant threaten the goal, he cant make surging forward runs, he cant make defence splitting passes and he is not a good defensive tackler. Most of all he cant change a game. So someone please tell me why he was the best player on the field today?

I was watching the game from the USA, 3,750 miles away, and it was not a penalty.

We can't rely on dodgy decisions to scrape a point here and there.

We have to score regularly in open play, something which appears to be beyond us at the moment based on goals for this season.

There are decent players in EVERY team in the Premier League. Our players are middle of the road and we don't have a star. Our best players have already left the club and we have not bought adequate replacements. One comment above said that we have decent players on the bench... I for one cannot see them!!

I am no longer confident that we can beat ANY of the other sides in the Premier League and I just see us declining under the present board.

Stupid comments are made like criticising Saha and lamenting the lack of guile in the team... show me where we have replacements for Saha, Pienaar and Arteta. We have DUG UP McFadden and acquired players who no-one else was interested in.

It's a shambles!!

Mick, Felli plays a lot of forward passes which most of our midfield don't. He's a better tackler than people give him credit for and he breaks up a hell of a lot of play.

He also can threaten the goal, as evidenced with his Premier League scoring record, which is better than the likes of Essien who is widely regarded as one of, if not the best def midfielder. I'd wager he creates chances too, with his knock-downs, just like he did for Ossie against the Mancs earlier today.

The main thing that Felli does to our benefit is calm the play down and play simple passes when the 10 others on the pitch would likely hoof it straight back to the opposition.

He's not perfect by any stretch. He could probably get rid of the petulance and silly fouls, for example. But, that said, he's still our best central midfielder by a country mile.

Maybe it's lack of confidence but we play with fear. The easy option is taken too often. The sideways pass (I know retaining possession is important but sometimes players need to risk ridicule and try something different) or hoofball which to me is another sign of lack of belief. Get rid of it before making a mistake or take the easy option and pass the responsibility to someone else.

We have passed the games that have ready made excuses and it's time for the players to stand up and be counted. Having bottle isn't just throwing oneself fearlessly into challenges.

Dead tired and bored to death of discussing the issues... as long as NOTHING is being done about it, then what is the point?

Doesn't seem to stop ya posting, eh, Jimmy ? telling others what they should oughta be doing...

[BTW, do ya still want me to post your latest missive?]

The players we have and have had can compete with any side, they've proved that before. The trouble is, Moyes and Round are totally useless and watching Everton players before and after is revealing.

Jagielka was a ball player who could travel out of defence, Moore-style, and pick out an intelligent pass to set up an attack. He's had that coached out of him.

Yobo was similar but after a while, either through coaching or not having anyone to pass to, they resorted to hoofing the thing up the pitch to no-one.

Just look at Arteta now, how he runs the centre of the pitch and links up with the forwards and creates for the wide runners. Looks more effective than being stuck out wide waiting for something to happen.

Heitinga had a good game today in his natural position and Coleman and Jags spend too much time looking after Hibbert's position these days than concentrating on their own games.

We need someone to freshen things up and I don't think our present manager and staff are capable.

I can tell you what we don't have that all the top clubs have, and that is a canny player who can draw free kicks and penalties and make every challenge on them look like a yellow card offence. Pienaar and Arteta could both do it, even when they were playing crap.

It takes the sting out of the game, gives you the chance to throw a decent ball in and with penalties obviously the chance of a goal that you wouldn't get otherwise.

All the top teams have a class player who knows how to get fouled, Suarez etc can guarantee you ten points a season for theatrics alone, and if you can ge an opponent booked then he is less likely to get stuck in again.

Perhaps we are too honest, but I think we haven't got enough players who can play the refs...

Don't want them either Steve.

Saha stood out for me as by far the worst player on the pitch; he literally strolled around the final 3rd, didn't chase, didn't parry, didn't look even slightly engaged throughout.

Fucking lazy french perma-injured cunt, as far as I'm concerned.

To slightly water down Alan Clarke`s comments (#1), we seem to have not enough REALLY GOOD players. In particular, Bily and Heitinga continue to disappoint whilst Rodwell, Barkley and Vellios all have a lot to learn. Cahill is almost worn out whilst Saha reached that point before he joined us!

The `Everton spirit` is epitomized by the likes of Howard, Hibbert, Baines, Osman, Jagielka, Distin and Coleman but none of them would claim to be world class.The jury is still out on Fellaini and Drenthe.

But, in spite of this lack of REAL quality, I continue to believe that Manager Moyes can once again wield his magic and steer us into a top half place. Most of us would back him and his limited squad to best the `usual strugglers` in the post-Christmas run-in but each season it`s getting harder for him.

Like most Evertonians, I`m beginning to look lustfully at every Jaguar that passes me on the Formby by-pass as I continue to hope my 10-year-old Vectra will last out the season!

Wayne 14: When Rodwell was sent of against the shite it did not end the contest, how many times has Moyes lost too ten men of Liverpool?

Mark 23: I also watched the game on German TV and it was never a pen being in the ground does not overide anyone else's opinion also if you watch on TV you get replays etc so you get a more informed opinion of most incidents; this is way there is calls for technology to be used in the game!

Too many of our supporters live in La La land. "If the ref had given that pen", "If that shot hadn't hit the post", "If this", "If that".

Some of our supporters have an air of resignation about them - expecting a defeat, with a passive shrug when it happens. With our manager consistently talking down our chances because of our Board's failings, do you not think that some of it rubs off on the players?

And to the "What if" merchants, expand the remit a bit. What if Blackburn hadn't pissed away 2 penalties, what if Bobby Zamora hadn't missed that sitter - when you weigh it up, things could be worse.

As always, we'll not be threatened by relegation because their will be 3 teams even more shite than us. Can't bank on that forever though as we continue to lose players through natural wastage / finances.

Man Utd didn't get out of first gear ? they didn't have to... everything was played in front of them. We never got behind them.

To finally put this penalty thing to bed: It would have been given at Old Trafford, Anfield, Stamford Bridge, Emirates, Etihad etc etc.

Home team 0-1 down closing minutes, when our forward is taken out inside the penalty area when he had a great chance and may have scored. Evra was facing his own goal and is very left-footed. To have played the ball back to his keeper would have meant either using his weaker right foot or the inside of his left foot and probably put his keeper under pressure.

He also could easily have either conceded a corner or throw-in by using his stronger left foot to hook the ball out of play. Instead he deliberately blocked the path of the on rushing forward and in my opinion denied a clear goalscoring chance. Imagine if that was Baines on Rooney last minute at the Stretford End.

I just want fairness and it seems we are not getting our share of correct decisions at this present time. This was proved yet again yesterday when Liverpool got a soft penalty at West Brom for a foul that was virtually the same as Evra on Gueye.

Mark, you may be right that it would have been given at the grounds you mention.
But, at the end of the day, IMO, it was never a penalty.

It's a mixture of things:

? we have no cash to inject fresh life into the team so the main players heads start to drop. Doesn't matter how much you get paid, if all you can see is a slowly demizing business around you it's tough to hold your head up. Drenthe on loan is amazing bit of business but he HAS to be made a permanent member of the squad. The first time I saw him play I knew he was quality.

? the message to the players has got to be about building confidence. Put the positive message out there's that we ARE a quality team and will not be rolled over by teams who DO cost more. We've shown the last few seasons that hard work and shrewd purchases CAN match the extravagance of the Utds, Chelseas and City's, bit that's the point: you've got to work hard and have the belief!

? some players have had their day and certain positions on the field have remained brutally exposed for the last few seasons. (un)fortunately results and finishing positions appear to have masked these to the point where Moyes or Kenwright must have though "actually, it's not so bad" and focused their attentions elsewhere. Key positions which should have been sorted long ago: rightback, right midfield and striker(s). It looks like the right midfield may have been sorted but defensively and the strikers are laid bare for all to see. Trouble now is we have a team that is ageing and little can be done to resolve the increasing number of weakening positions. Whilst it's tough to admit, Cahill should have been sold a season or two ago, as should Jagielka. Both could have been replaced or the formation of the team changed. Cahill has embodied Everton but his threat has gone. The sale of Jagielka would have gained enough money to find a replacement.

? Moyes has done a stunning job for Everton and at times he's done too well. He has his lovers and haters however he's managed to get the team regularly finishing in the top 8. There have been an increasing number of times where I've wondered what the hell had gone through his head: team selections where it has been obvious other players are better/fitter etc and substitutes which baffle any level of comprehension and completely avoidable losses - but when the team finishes in 6th or 7th it's tough to argue. This season however, it has become increasingly clear that Moyes is feeling the pressure or is increasingly disillusioned as selections an substitutes are simply shocking.

ComIng back almost full circle, I have to wonder quite how Moyes gets the team playing so well on low confidence levels because, looking at Arteta playing for Arsenal, I see a player who is clearly uncomfortable on the ball an is over eager to get rid of it. Whilst he set up one of the goals there were period where he'd get passed the ball and Arteta would immediately pass it straight back even though the player hadn't moved and neither had the Chelsea players. It was almost as if he'd been told "you're here to pass the ball, don't take it in your posession, just get it to a team mate!".

Moyes HAS to instill more confidence in his players!

Mark Scarratt 39

That is the unhealthy truth about the Premier League. Its not that the money teams can buy better quality players, its that the people who run the game are bought and paid for by these monied clubs.
When you sit and watch other games in a balanced and unbiased way then you can see that it is becoming more and more fixed in favour of the monied (SKY) clubs. At least that is the way I see it more and more every season, at least thats my opinion and the facts seem to back it up. All alleged of course!!!!

It was never a stone wall pen, but you see them given. And that is the point - you dont see them given to us, or any 'small clubs' against the glamour sides.

Alan Clarke is quite right with his comment. We are an average team at best. With Arteta gone and Cahill's goals drying up we have lost what little we had as an offense. Add to that the fact that Moyes got rid of Becks and Yaks but kept a slower,aging,injury prone Saha not forgetting the enigma that is Big Vic and we are left with a chronic impotency. Yesterday he started with Saha up front ably unsupported by a feeble Osman.
When he realised that mistake he threw Fellaini up front and moved Osman further back where he is just as feeble.
It's been done so many times but it just doesn't work. It's not anybody's fault but Moyes. He has no new ideas and most teams are wise to his tactics.Yes we won at Fulham but were very very lucky in the end. The prognosis is not good. Drenthe does add spark but nobody else does.
The shake up has to come but it has to start at the top.
When players are not playing up to standard you have to drop them and give others a chance. Could we do any worse than starting Gueye with Drenthe,Barkley,Velios and Staqualursi.
What about right back where Hibbo is always caught out of position.Do we have anyone else in the reserves?.
If he won't play Coleman there, must he always look to play Neville who is also getting slower and the same goes for the central positions.
Playing one aging striker is a no-brainer against the likes of Manure unless you have quick midfielders who can score a goal or two. How may goals combined have our current midfield 5 got this season?
Enough said.

Of course this great club of ours can bring rage, anger, despondency. That is how love goes. We are in a particularly bad phase. We have some very good players. Some are not in form, some are injured, some are injured and playing and getting grief for doing so.

We were not awful against United: the United side that has dominated the Premiership. The next few weeks we will play teams which will bring us points.

I have dreamed that a very rich Everton fan would take us to the the top of World football and have our neighbours cry into their history. Perhaps one day.

I do know that if I was the major shareholder of Everton, I would do everything in my power to hang on to it.

Today is not a good place for Everton. But neither was early 1984, which I recall vividly. Not a single fan could have any idea what a back pass away at Oxford could lead to.

Most of us are given Everton at an early age. We are in it from that point until the day we die. It is fraught with emotion, with wonderful moments and the most dreadful fleeting feelings that we will ever experience.

That, surely, is our acceptance and commitment. We support. The rest is beyond.