Why IS David Moyes still at Everton?

Think there is probably some truth in the article and there's no doubt he puts practicality before flair but then so have alot of top managers including the 'special one'.

Basicly if we do not get Pienaar and another winger we will struggle just as much as we did during the first half of last season.
I think Moyes has found this out, but will he be willing to sell to buy?
Baines is the one player I do not want to sell, but anybody else can be sold and replaced.

Progress needs to happen, if there is no money then Moyes needs to sell players to get it.
Right now both sides of our midfield is exposed with huge holes left from both Pienaar and Drenthe.
If Moyes does not fill them then we are in big trouble, we may not get relegated but we will not stand a chance of getting back into Europe.

"Chairmen looking to appoint, like fans, are children at heart. They do not care how hard the job is, they want excitement, thrills, fantasy and at least the hope of winning a pot".

I would place myself in this category.

Supporting Everton is possibly the one genuinely illogical area of my (and possibly your) life.

Almost everything else in life has to be thought about.

You have to find a job because you need somewhere to live and have to pay rent and then you need to pay leccy and buy food and sort out your family and....unless you win the lottery, that's you until the end.

Fortunately there are diversions, sex, film, telly, gambling football (or whatever it is that diverts you).

Football imo SHOULD be about thrills, inventiveness, watching players/teams do things you could never do.

Moyes' teams have, I believe, failed in this regard.

I haven't watched 'his' football and thought 'wow' (more likely "FFS!!!!").

(that DID actually change towards the end of last season and very welcome and surprising it was too).

My answer to those who say 'you're being unrealistic' is "yes I am, absolutely 100% unrealistic...but once you apply 'realism', very easy to think "hold on - no money, shit-house of a chairman, can't compete financially with other sides, what am I bothering for?"

Anyway, a good piece and refreshing (for me) to see a journo not just trotting out the same lazy shite re Moyes.

I wonder if Moyes takes it on board ? No chance.

Ask any manager what they think of a colleague, and the stock answer is trotted out on radio, T.V and in newspapers. " He is doing a great job, the team really work hard for him etc. etc.....

This is why I pisss my pants when posters say Moyes is being lined up for Utd. Fergie gives him a pat on the head, takes our best players, then bigs him up because he is a Jock, who is no threat to him.

When Benitez or Wenger became a threat, you saw the real Fergie in action. No praise - only scorn, because they threatened his title chances. Did you ever hear Fergie praising Benitez ?

If Moyes was the manager we are led to believe, he would have been offered numerous jobs by now - but this piece nails it for me

" Moyes is associated with maintenance, augmenting Joe Royle's dogs of war when expansive, imaginative football is the requirement to get on. His league record looks impressive on paper; eight top 10 finishes in 11 seasons at Goodison Park with a highest of fourth. But he has won precisely nothing. "

Add to that the style of play we have all witnessed over the last ten years, but there are those who are quite happy as long as we are in the Premier League. Including the shambles of a board.

For those who state we can expect no more - bullshit. There are mangers out there who can play fast flowing, exciting football and possibly win a trophy or two.

We need to find the next Wenger, Fergie or Mourinho before anyone else. We have the funds - £3m a year buys you quality. We just need to show some faith & patience, Moyes has had 10 years to build a team, most managers can only dream of this sort of backing.

How many league championships have they won. 9? No, don't be daft, 7? no, 5? its got to be 5 - no, 3? no. 2? Yep. 2 league championships that's it.

Their first came when rationing was still on in the early 50s when Britain was on its arse post WWII, and again in 60/61 when they managed to fluke the FA Cup in the same season playing the Tottenham way.

So Spurs seem to be going down the AvB route or some other foreigner, have such successes like Ramos, Santini, Gross, and Jol. The same club who sacked George Graham, who had won them a trophy and got them in a semi to go and hire Hoodle. Some clubs never learn, and thank fully they look to be missing out on someone to turn that club into winners. Thank god.

About bloody time too.

Lol

Add in Chelsea not entertaining him and picking someone sacked by West Brom, Man City not bothering when they binned Mark Hughes and it's a fair question to ask.

This "top 8 lah" no matter how we play might have you and your cronies in raptures and provide stock cliches for people who don't watch us anyone with ambition sees it for what it is - survival - nothing more.

As Dave says, most here tell us that journos know nothing when they praise him, but this one tells it true does he? Brilliant!

As Eugene states, we started playing better the arse end of last season, why was that? Was it because the chairman managed to get some money for a transfer for the first time in three years?

When he has the players, we do play nice tippy tappy football; however when you have to keep selling your best players and replacing them with Championship level loanees, the footbal IS going to suffer and the all too familiar fall back to the hoof and run football.

What this journo doesn't mention is that in the final we were without our spine of Jagielka, Arteta and Yakubu with Hibbert and Ossie just coming back from injury. Just sounds better to say we bottled it. Nothing to do with the fact Chelsea should have been in the Champions League Final because they were the better side our of them and Barca in the semis.

Gavin, where did Swansea finish in the league? Didn't a relegated side also beat Man U? The sun shines on a dogs arse sometimes

"So when vitually every journo in the UK praises Moyes they dont have a clue about Everton, but when one criticises him . . .he a fucken expert - Lol"

Davios Wilsononopolous 530 BC.

"Virtually all the mathematicians reckon the world is flat but Pythagoras reckons the earth is round and suddenly he's a fucking expert?

Laughosoutloudnikopolos!

(waves etruscan jug)

When you're ready Helen!

So as I was sayin', this Olympics idea will never get off the gr...".

Spurs will be interested in Moyes but that job will be a poisoned chalice - Spurs will struggle to compete financially with Manchester clubs and Chelsea, possibly Arsenal too. Whoever takes over, there is every chance they'll be drawn backwards into the battle with liverpool, Newcastle and us!! That would be seen as a failure, at present we've a decent squad, some exciting youth prospects, job security - I'd stay.

Anfield, March 2012

No he's not.

He's asking why is Moyes still here and his analysis is we're defensive and shit to watch.

The draw with a half bothered Utd then going through on pens may have had us dancing in the street but in terms of a spectacle it was a stalemate yawn for the neutral.

This business about hard done to Moyes, I'd be more impressed if he did a Benitez and said this ain't right, that was the prelude to universal protest against their cowboys.

Our cowboys are protected by Moyes, he's in it with them so don't waste your tears.

But I also agree that his downfalls have been the showpiece games, games which we have come into on form, but apparently Moyes cannot handle the weight of expectation and prefers to be the underdog. If he can change that I think he stops being a very good manager and becomes an excellent one. But after ten years...

Despite what some posters here think, to consistently play attractive football AND achieve results you need money (NB Swansea do not play attractive football, in my opinion). Everton have no money therefore it is difficult to get results and "make the heart sing" on a regular basis.

If Everton had the kind of funds to achieve the above then the job becomes one of the most sought after - again - so the argument of "why is Moyes/Fellaini/Baines etc etc still at Everton" becomes moot in any case.

If Everton had Spurs' money then does anyone choose Spurs above Everton based on football reasons, or because they are in the London? ("AKA the Charlie Nicholas Decision process")

It's not difficult this stuff

I am all for agreeing that our football in the most has been turgid, but the results are what matter. The journo sounds like he belongs on here slagging Moyes off with the way he writes it. And when have Villa been the top tier of the Premiership?

Arsenal and Man U have never looked for a manager, Spurs have just come into the fray for one and we don't even know if he is being considered or not. Usual journo, no evidence but writes as if it is fact. Villa? fuck off!! Chelsea? What is funny is that Mourinho is one of the most defensive managers but utilises his players far better.....because he has only been employed by top teams. Di Matteo has just won the Champions League with even more defensive displays than Moyes's Everton, yet now he is some super manager.

Condescending clap trap, even if a lot of does ring true

It is ONLY a theory and I have ABSOLUTELY no proof.

It is based ONLY on how dramatically our style of play changed and Moyes past 'style'

I think the new players DID have a hand, but don't believe it was definitely down to Moyes

I think it's possible there was some kind of mini-revolt.

If there was, I think it happened at half time against Swansea.

I think it's possible there was a bollocking from Moyes and (for once?) players had a go back and may have suggested 'It's your fucking tactics, if you let us do our thing...."

As I say, no proof just a theory, but for me to believe it was down to Moyes, I would have to buy into Leopard's changing spots (and I don't).

If there was any truth to this, I WOULD give Moyes credit for accepting he was wrong and being big enough..etc.

Anyway, I guess I'll never know (unless in Hibbo's biography - 'Riot' - there's a chapter entitled, 'The Day We Said Enough Is Enough').

So, although I can't make my mind up what I want to happen, there are some things that always strike me when reading through articles and comments on Moyes. In no particular order, here are some things that I think need to be considered:

1. Do we conflate and confuse playing style and success? Virtually all of the examples of expansive-minded managers that get trotted out are simply not as successful as Moyes has been: Lambert, Martinez, Rodgers would all kill for the sustained leagues positions that Moyes has achieved. Moyes generally beats these managers when he meets them, sometimes playing good football, sometimes not. But style and success do not go hand in hand. You can be ugly and successful, and beautiful and unsuccessful. Sometimes, when the stars align, you can be both beautiful and successful (Barcelona over the last 3 years, Arsenal under Wenger for about 2 years). But to think that playing more attractive football will improve our results is naive, I think.

2. Do we allow success to alter our perceptions of style? We finished 7th last season (again). Honestly, looking at the teams that finished above us, how many do you think play a more attractive kind of football that us? For me, the list is limited to Man Utd, Spurs and Arsenal. You might not agree, but in Man City, Chelsea and Newcastle, I see teams and managers in the Moyes mould. That is, play nice football when you can (start / end of season or when teams roll over and let you do what you want), but then be pragmatic the rest of the time. When the chips are down, don't take chances, be strong defensively and try to nick a goal at the other end. That is the de-facto modus operandi of most teams (successul or not), and Moyes is no different. When I see Man City, I see a Moyes team with almost half a billion quid spent on it. I don't see Barcelona. But, if we had our own oil sheikh, would we still moan about the style of football under Moyes, or would be lap it up? I'd guess the latter. I've seen nothing in Moyes to suggest that given the advantages of other teams, he couldn't win trophies as well. I've also seen nothing to suggest he'd turn us into another Barcelona because I don't think that's his philosophy.

3. Do we all swallow the Sky bullshit a little too easily? For all the success of the teams I mentioned in point 2 above, I would argue that only Man Utd have a clearly identifiable ethos that they stick to. Fergie likes his teams to play fast, attacking football and to impress themselves on teams. Spurs pretend they do, but let's be honest (George Graham, Santini, Gross just off the top of my head). Arsenal used to, but these days I think they're just not good enough to actually impose a philosophy on anyone (they have a vague intent for short passing, but that's as far as it goes). Chelsea, under Di Matteo, have been awful to watch. And yet, for all that, Sky will have you convinced that these teams are better than Barcelona for the most part. The most routine save or goal will be met with an orgasmic moan by the Sky commentator / pundit / fuckwit. And I think fans lap that up a little too easily. It could, of course, simply be "the grass is always greener" syndrome. Stabiliy is boring, and often Everton under Moyes are boring, so sometimes the alternatives seem more attractive.

4. Do we confuse end result with product? The line of thought always seems to be that "Moyes plays crap football. Moyes has won nothing. Therefore, crap football never results in trophies". However, I would contend that this is a false syllogism. And in my defence, I would offer the following exhibits: Chelsea under Di Matteo, Man City under Mancini, Inter Milan under Mourinho. Teams that have, in recent seasons, won the Champions League and the EPL, have been fucking awful to watch. But they've still won. Sometimes, a little luck (or a lot of luck) goes a long, long way. It also doesn't hurt that these clubs are incredibly wealthy. But my contention is that the only difference between these clubs and Everton is money; not style. Give Moyes that kind of budget and I think he'd deliver a trophy as well. I also don't think his style would change though. But the idea that Moyes will never triumph because of his negativity or conservative nature is just ludicrous. All he's doing is emulating what he sees around him. Success is bred from money, not footballing philosophy.

As I say, I really don't know what I want to happen at Everton. Well, actually I do: I want us to get a shit-load of money and Moyes to turn into Guardiola overnight. But neither of those things are going to happen. So, beyond that, I can't make my mind up. I just think that sometimes we reduce the argument about Moyes and his merits to almost comic-book simplicity, and we are all too guilty of failing to see the granular detail.

"Theory" is quite a stretch. A theory is an attempt to put a rational explanation around some observed behaviours or evidence.

Whereas your half-time revolt seems to be utter speculation without any basis of fact that you just made up (unless you have other information that I have not seen).

Have you considered a career in journalism?

It's not a complete anomaly that we play well, we have had sporadic patches of good football throughout his ten years, but they always come to an end when we cannot keep the better players or a drastic injury hits one of them.

When we had Lescott, Banes, Arteta, Pienaar and Yakubu firing on all cylinders we were playing some great footy, then Arteta, Yak and Jags get long lay offs, Lescott jumps ship and Pienaar follows and we start playing the usual kick and run crap we started off playing.

This Januarym we get Pienaar back, a loan spell of Donovan, a Man Ure reject and a striker that actually shoots first time and works for the team.....and what do you know, we start playing better footy.

As I said, if it hadn't of happened previously, I could get behind the revolt theory.....but the Riot book was a step too far!!! (I would read that book though)

What other manager is straining at the leash to join a penniless club? No one. Who would we end up with - someone like Alladyce. God help us then. The grass is not always greener.

Moyes is loyal, driven and an Evertonian. If we can hang on to Baines, Fella and Jelavic - get a few others in - and for once get a decent start - who knows what we'll do next season.

I'm Moyes through and through. Appreciate he's not everyone's cup of tea - but in our predicament he's superb.

Right .... give me a second ... I've got into my bomb shelter ... kevlar jacket is on ... ear muffs .... incoming expected!

Sticks and stones ....

Your money is everything was blown out the water by the Mancs getting spanked in the CL and Swansea playing entertaining stuff despite paying their players in leeks.

(if anyone gives it the top 8 lah justification they can kiss my hairy ....)

"to consistently play attractive football AND achieve results you need money".

Disagree and we are the proof.

Everton after Swansea played attractive football AND achieved results.

We don't have 'money'.

It obviously CAN be done IF the will (nerve, balls, bravery, belief etc) is there.

I thought the point I was making was blindingly obvious, but it appears to have escaped the hard of thinking.

I have lost count of the number of times people have claimed there is "press love in" with Moyes on this site "None of these fucken idiots can ever watch us play" . ."Lazy bastards"

What makes me laugh out loud is, now one of these "fucken idiots" has come out and agreed with Moyse`s critics, hes not just somebody offering an alternative view .. .Hes a proper journo, Somebody who "obviously" watches Everton . . a modern day fucken Pythagarus.

An outsider could easily mistake this thread for scene frome the Life of Brian.

I could just see messrs. Ruane, Bellis and Rathbone, leaping to their feet after reading this article and shouting "LOOK, ITS A SIGN, PROOF POSITIVE . . .HE ISNT THE MESSIAH ! ! ! "

How can you not see the article as condescending? He rubbishes our semi-final victory over Man U.

The Elephant in the room for condescension is the first question....Why is he still at Everton? Cheeky twat, as if this is a bad thing.

"What other manager is straining at the leash to join a penniless club? No one. "

For £3m a year, and the chance of managing one of the greatest clubs in English football, 30 odd thousand every week, ever present in the P.L. no pressure to win anything, team full of internationals, who would want that gig ?

Far from being a student of Everton it's pretty clear Kevin hasn't seen an Everton match since the 1995 cup final (2nd half highlights on MotD anyway, he's a busy man). Hence his assertion that Moyes is continuing Royle's legacy and seemingly forgetting the six odd years between the two. Dogs of War!? Yeah Pienaar and Osman could leave a nasty welt on the ankle alright.

We haven't captured the imagination of the neutral? ffs. How long would toffeeweb faithful accept losing 5-2 week in week out. Neutrals would tune every week, at least until we were in the Championship but I'm sure we would be applauded for being a spectacle.

Somebody writes something you agree with and at last somebody is talking sense in the meeja. "All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to here and disregards the rest"

Read what I said.

The key points are results, performance and CONSISTENTLY (sorry for Caps).

Which means we can get results and we can entertain in patches but not the majority of the time, which is more likely if we had better players which cost more money.

So far as being blown out of the water

1. Man City are not a settled side, they are still building - I bet they don't get spanked out of the CL in the next few years;

2. I was not entertained by Swansea's version of tikki-taka as you seemed to be Barry. Endless passing between centre backs with very little end product is not my idea of Dream Team. I'll lay you odds they are relegation fodder next season, which is where this argument falls down. Anyone can take a snapshot of a given moment in time and hold it up as a paradigm.If you want proper analysis you need to do it over a longer period with all facts available, not your favourite selection

"an attempt to put a rational explanation around some observed behaviours or evidence".

Odd - I'm happy to accept YOUR definition, seems you're not.

My attempt was..

"It is based ONLY on how dramatically our style of play changed and Moyes past 'style"

Whether you agree, think it's bollocks or whatever, it IS a theory

You say "your half-time revolt seems to be utter speculation without any basis of fact that you just made up".

Speculation yes (nb: despite your semantics on theory, all theory is basically speculation) but it was NOT without facts.

(tip: read the ACTUAL posts, not the ones in your head that suit your 'arguments').

It IS a fact that our football changed dramatically.

It IS a fact that me AND you don't know why.

It IS a fact that Moyes' team has in the main played a certain brand of football (fair to call it percentage football).

Added to this if (as I did about 4 fucking times in my post), I point out that I accept it's based on very little, it's a fair enough......THEORY.

Ditto TJWilliams stop getting precious about how offended you are because you can't answer the lads question or dispute his analysis.

This is a journo with no axe to grind as far as I know and he's saying what I and others have been saying for years.

Exactly WHY hasn't the worker of miracles, Moyes, been deemed good enough for these clubs?

A thesis from his supporters would be interesting - put your tin hats on though.

They were awful to watch at Goodison too.

Whatever happens to City in the future has no bearing on what actually happened this year.

Utd suffered the same fate if you're meandering down the "project in infancy" route.

You say you don't find the Swans football attractive despite their comparisons to Arsenal last year, I guess that ends the conversation then.

"It IS a fact that our football changed dramatically.

It IS a fact that me AND you don't know why."

I honestly have not looked at the league table, but did our flowing playing style coincide with us being relatively safe from relegation in the League ?

If so, this pattern is repeated every season. We have all read the quotes ;

" We first have to aim for 40 points, and see where we go from there."

Imagine him repeating that at his first Spurs presser !

Can you answer the original question, in one paragraph preferably ?

Wasn't it dross as the main course with turgid puddin' for afters?

Stop making excuses for him.

I am not the one defending Moyes's record or playing style with poor excuses. His supporters are, therefore if he has such a hard time at Everton, and he is a much better manager than his peers, he will be offered numerous high profile posts, surely ?

Maybe you can answer why he is still here ?

The man himself admitted he would't have paid to watch his own team - what more evidence do you need ?

"a great manager would play the cards he has to suit the players he has" - completely agree, unfortunately Moyes is not a great manager, he is an above average one and these great managers wouldn't be anywhere near our club with one of the smallest squads in the league and no money to increase the quantity let alone the quality.

Moyes plays percentages and its safety first to the extreme. Very rarely have we ever been sent out to hurt a team. Keep it tight and try to nick one is practically tattooed on his forehead. That doesn't wash with the big clubs. Look at Chelsea's reluctance to give Di Matteo the job even after winning the CL! In the end there was no one else but they wanted Guardiola for his style even though he had just been beaten by Di Matteo dour chelsea.

To my mind there are two questions here; one is why hasn't Moyes moved on and the other is Is He Supposed To? No matter what the content of the article it's odd - and kind of offensive, to me - that the starting point is that Everton is not a place where a decent manager should reside.

I will not be laughing if the same comment comes from a Spurs fan in any vox pop.

I dont think mocking the stupidity of people who seem to see Kevin Garsides opinion as some sort of vindication constitutes "defending Moyes"

I dont need Garside to give me a straw to clutch at, I know my club better than he does and without defending Moyes I can give you half a dozen blindingly obvious reasons off the top of my head as to why he is still at Everton.

Go figure

I believe the quote was "we try to get to 40 points as soon as possible and see where we can go from there". A pretty much stock answer ,to a no doubt tedious question, given by a man who clearly has no time for the media at all.

Don't you also think we should be trying to get to 40 points as soon as possible?

I'd be upset if he said there's no rush or some other nonsense.

Why haven't a truly elite side come in for him? Because he's not truly an elite manager, but only really Dodd tries to make out he is.

He's doing a good job in keeping this side ticking over until someone with vision comes in and turns our world upside down. That may never happen, but if it does the catalyst will come from the boardroom not the dugout because that's where the game has changed.

20 years ago choosing a great manager could turn everything around and make you a contender. Now you need a great board too. I agree that we need the next Mourinho or Ferguson, but, one of the character traits of men of that ilk is that they wouldn't put up with Bill for five minutes.

Amongst the nonsense in this piece is that chairman are like kids in sweet shops.

Coates at Stoke must have liked them horrible sour sweets that make you pull a funny face then.

He might wanna take a bag up north too, where two big sides have gone for pragmatism time and again and only recently stumbled on a good manager in Pardew.

Mancini and italians aren't really recognized for scintillating football either but he had won leagues and that's what really matters and got him placed in the top bracket of caoches.

Likewise Dowie, Hodgson, Megson, Bruce, Robson and so many others who wouldn't know flair if they took their birds to Saturday Night Fever have all spent years managing in the prem.

Moyes has got his flaws and they are as clear as day but they are flaws that only the best managers don't have. We're not an attractive enough prospect for an established one and I'd be shocked to the core if our chairman could find us an up and coming one.

I actually thought the article was going to be another media snipe at little Everton and why Moyes needs to move on. In fact it was almost the opposite and a truthful and intelligent analysis of Moyes' non-achievements.

The media see us as unfashionable, playing in a crumbling stadium, with little future resources. Probably all true.

The myth of Moyes is perpetuated by those who refuse to see we have actually spent money, and continue to pay players 50k a week & more. They then compare us to the likes of Bolton & Wigan whose player contracts don't even come close to ours.

I believe Cahill, Fellaini, Heitinga, Baines, Jagilelka and Neville are all on premium contracts, comparable to any top six club.

Moyes is still at Everton because we have no ambition, there is no pressure to win trophies, he has full control over footballing matters and 3 million other reasons.

Would you leave that for every result to be dissected and analysed at a club who would demand success ?

There is no myth of Moyes, other than his unwillingness to buy flair players. No-one (maybe only Doddy) thinks he is a great manager really, he is an above average manager doing an alright job at a mid table team. He is nowhere near as bad as some on here try and make out.

They say faint heart never won a fair maiden, when the chips are down, Moyes bottles it, tactically and personally.

If e is to prove himself as anything but a nearly man than he has to prove he is worth it. He hasn't and that's why he is still at Everton.

We have had the best of Moyes and it isn,t good enough.

This is it in a nutshell. Moyes is a good but limited manager and he has many strengths. However there is no getting away from it he has failed to win a trophy in 10 years. He isn't good enough. If you stick with him he will pretty much guarantee you top half finishes but you won't win a trophy. But isn't that what football is all about - the glory, the passion, the excitement winning a trophy against the odds. These are the things that stay with you that define your footballing experience as a supporter.
I remember Joe Royal saying he was thinking about playing three centre halfs against Spurs in THAT semi final. Then he thought to himself, no we are here to win it, we have to give it a go and attack them. That's the difference and its something that Moyes lacks. It's time for him to go.

I have mates who are neutral and roll their eyes when Everton are on the telly.

The journalist is correct when he says we capitulated in the final and resorted to long ball. It was the same in the semi-final this year.

A Moyes team will be spirited, track back, put a shift in etc. Sometimes I just want to see a player skin a full back or get us excited rather than give it to the nearest man or put it back to Jagielka for him to launch it. When will Moyes realise that launching it gives the ball back to the opposition?

Moyes has done well at Everton but I'd like to see a change in style and approach.

The only team that has been consistently entertaining to watch in the league have been Arsenal and they haven't won a bean in 7 years and counting, Citteh were sometimes awful to watch last season but they ground out the one goal wins, that's what wins you things, Mourinho did the same with Chelsea and has done the same with Real when playing anti football against Barca.

A change in style and approach will come with better players, just like what happened when Pienaar, Gibson and Jelavic were brought in, in January. First proper signings in three years and our best football in three years followed....strange that, isn't it?

I happen to think that the better football Everton play, the more possession they'll have, the higher chance they'll win more matches. It's no coincidence that performances improved when he played more football. THE issue I have with Moyes is that when it comes to the crunch, he'll revert to type and try and be hard to beat. which invariable means hoofball. Even his pre match interviews always suggest "we'll do our best" etc. rather than "we're going there to win".

If you're happy watching Everton lump balls forward and then falling back on a lack of resources excuse whilst settling for the odd derby win as success then fine. Just don't get defensive when other Evertonians part with their hard earned and want more from their team.

The truth is that Moyes is a very good manager. It may be that he has reached as far as he can go (taking a club into top 6 of PL) but we won't know till either he moves on or Kenwright makes more money available.

It's also true that he doesn't always play the best football (though he's hardly Allardyce) and I'm sure this has held him back.

I am far from happy with Everton, Moyes, Kenwright and co, just because I am not foaming at the mouth and not constantly calling them for everything doesn't mean I am not unhappy with them.

So does your hard earned have more meaning than mine because you like to concentrate on the negative more? Club motto is great and all that, but saying it doesn't magically make the billions appear that is needed to complete for the league.

As stated many times, our football improved when the better players were either bought or brought back. It's simple, you have better footballers, you play better football. I would love to be entertained but I would take 38 mind numbingly boring 1-0 wins every time if it meant my Everton would lift that trophy.

You want entertainment, go the flicks or go see a play, I hear the one with James Corden in is doing well.

Real's football while very good is nowhere near as slick as Barca's. Yet the Spanish title and a horde of newly broken records would provide more than enough vindication.

They spent massively over the last two years to get to this level. The last great Madrid team which played amazing football was over 10 years ago, when - guess what? They spent massively and bought Zidane and Figo.

Show me a club which wins major honours and plays great football on a shoe string budget.

Not a word in this article, I don't read in here daily. Plagiarism really. He actually gets paid to write on topics, agree with the opinion or not, more entertainingly written right here.

Another lazy journo.

This is imo is a little disingenuous because there is an inbuilt implication/inference/suggestion (Joe Clitherow, that choice is for you) that with the alternative there is some sort of safety (or results) guarantee.

There very definitely and absolutely isn't.

As I suggested earlier (after Swansea), Everton UNDER Moyes have shown they can do it and be MORE successful.

We have three new players?

Well kind of but we've had new players before and played crap football.

That style thing, anyway you look at it, is down to Moyes.

You have quoted Bilbao, Swansea, but you could quote villareal a couple of years ago who have just been relegated.

I ask the question as these clubs are a fashion, in today and out tomorrow.

Nope there would be the Coward/Shithouse?tactically inept comments that come out when we lose.

I didn't say there was a guarantee of points if we played conservatively, I was merely pointing out that Craig was certainly in the minority if he would not be too concerned if we got beat as long as we went for it.

The new players before were loanees or freebies, we actually paid out for Gibson and Jelavic and lo and behold we start playing better.

My theory that this one moment brought the Redshite back into a game where they didn't seem like scoring is out of the window because of the PS3 connection. Silly me!

Let?s look at it in terms of getting another job and progressing up the managerial ladder. Let?s be honest Moyes would have looked at it like that when he was starting out, he was freakishly and overtly driven in his early years at Preston and us, now he's more sedate. He had opportunities and landed here. He is a football man to the core, an obsessive, and knew that this was a big job take. A big, historic club. In Baz Rathbones book he refers to Moyes saying how in the future he is going to be Premiership manager of the year one day, soon.

He had a massive impact in turning the club around. This debate has been had many times before and my viewpoint is, until 08/09, the cub was driven forward powerfully with the Cup Final being the high water mark. Objectively, if he wanted another job maybe he should have gone then. I don?t think he can take it any further than he previously has, however I don?t think anyone can, we are financially capped. Remember, we were 5th consecutively and looking like we had progressed to where I had wanted us to be for years, regular UEFA qualification and needing 2/3 add on players to be having a dart at the top 4. In my eyes, ran out of budget. Anyone who flat denies the progression of the club until 08/09 is, imo, very jaundiced.

From 06-09 the football improved all the way, there is a certain amount of revisionism going on in terms of the style of play which, in the last 2 seasons has no doubt gone backwards as Moyes has returned to ultra-pragmatism, into a cocoon possibly caused by the undoubted malaise throughout the club. The first half of last season was fucking awful, it was too much and some of the worst stuff I?ve ever seen, Moyes at his worst, as was the semi.

In his time here time he has become pigeon holed/typecast/caricatured, call it what you want, as a certain type of manager There are certain truths to them. He is now roundly thought of as the fighter, the budget man, the firefighter. In the big flash era of the Prem we are an an anachronism as a club. Let?s just say that Moyes wouldn?t necessarily have to be sniffing around the Strac, and I do believe early this season was crisis management, excessive though those tactics were. Moyes, does have that old school decency about him as well. In truth, as I think we as a club have needed all these traits, perhaps never more. He has held the place together for a decade. Takes some fucking doing and at times, especially in the last 2/3 years he has looked visibly drained. There are very few managers in the country who could do what he has done, for 10 years. He works his bollocks off. The longer you stay the less you are wanted, it?s the law of diminishing returns. Curbsishley at Charlton, the roadblock to Champions League qualification?

Sometimes your best virtues become your achilles. There are few on here who can argue he isn't loyal. Can you imagine O'Neill, Keegan doing 10 years here? No chance. I think his loyalty and ethical nature has compromised him, he has backed himself into a corner which may only be escapable by us gettig dollar to play with. Otherwise the previous bright young thing will be the Prems Dario Gradi until it, eventually, inevitably goes wrong at some point. The era of the continental manager doesn?t help, I can only see Spurs going that way for example. I think his loyalty, no doubt characterised as lack of ambition by some, has resulted in the pigeon holing, its self perpetuating now to an extent.

Cant sum up 10 years too easy and there are so many mitigating factors at Everton it makes analysis very difficult. In terms of style, I hope we never see the first half of last season again. He does go for the solidity first, he's never light on defenders!! Squad balance can be an issue with him and is something he needs to look at. With Jelavic up top though I think we will be more expansive, if we can get Piennar in as well we definitely will. We generally played pretty decent stuff when Yak was here and he was a footballing striker, over and out?????..

How many United fans actually want Moyes to succeed SAF? I don't know a single one because they don't like his dour approach and his negativity.

Certainly if we suddenly played this free flowing football and came unstuck in a quarter final (its sport on grass not on a laptop) we would point the fingers at X, Y or Z and not just go oh well least we had a pass completion success of 90% and we had a good go. We are football fans not hippies. More mushrooms Gav....

Would Moyes have been the guy to make that challenge? I suspect not, but it was still a bloody good side - and was dismantled for non-football reasons.

1st goal, boot the ball into the stands, 2nd goal, don't dive in and mark the target man closely.

They weren't getting back into it, as it had been the same situation after about 5mins after we scored, they pressed, we defended, they couldn't score....until Distin lays it on the plate for the racist.

"Cristiano Ronaldo could learn a lot from Albert Riera, who has made a huge difference to Liverpool in attack. As well as a great left foot Riera resists any temptation to over-complicate things, unlike Ronaldo who rarely wastes an opportunity to over-elaborate."

"This means Liverpool might have to look beyond the marquee candidates like Guus Hiddink or fashionable appointments such as Jurgen Klinsmann. It might even force them to look at enterprising British coaches.

Martin O?Neill and Roy Hodgson have been mentioned. But what about an aspiring young coach like Alex McLeish, who has demonstrated the ability at Birmingham to mould a team around the sound footballing principles demanded at Anfield? And he speaks the language of Shankly and Dalglish."

Says it all really, I reckon.

When I was a kid why did I want to go to the match? To see my team play, play well and hopefully win - to see the ball popped out to a winger, for him to beat a man, to hit a sweet pass into the area and a centre forward beat his defender and lash it into the net - for the atmosphere and feeling that that process, and countless variations of it, can produce.

Now, at the age of 39, why do I want to go to the match? Exactly the same reasons.

Why would I want to take my 4 year old lad? Why would I want him to go? The same reasons again.

From the outside something definitiely seemed to happen during / after the Swansea Away game - it was as if Moyes at the team had a Road to Damascus style transformation. I told anyone that would listen after that I though Moyes must have had some kind of breakdown.

If we can perform - or just try to perform - like we did at the end of last season for the whole of the next one I'll be happy. The results are incredibly important of course, but the manner of the performance is what keeps us coming back for more.

Swansea, Norwich and sometimes Blackpool are touted as the examples to aspire to. One only lasted a season. Two have lost their inspirational managers and now face the new challenge of staying in the premiership beyond 2 seasons, having their better players picked off, and having now to generate the income required to stay in the top tier (Players wages will increase,buying better players costs more money. Our own club shows this).But the main achievement of Moyes is to have kept Everton not only safe, but at the right end of the league.

The football has been dire at times. No question. But his overall achievements are not dis countable. Maybe he isnt good enough in the eyes of the spurs chairman, but apparently AVB is, when his only achievement in English management has been to give Di Matteo a chance.

His wages are good, but look at it this way: Everton are 10th in the attendance league & have the 8th Highest turnover, in the past 10 years have spent net avearage £800000 on transfers a season (15th place in that league) and the wage bill is Joint 9th (with Fulham) highest. In view of these statistics he has the club performing above itself. If I put these sort of results in consistently I would expect to be well paid for it.

I hope he stays, and I am very interested to see if either Lambert, Martinez or Rodgers make massive differences to the fortunes of their new clubs.

Moyes has coaxed the best from Cahill as a substitute for a striker and he got a return out of Marcus Bent that left most commentators flabbergasted, remember the finish at Southampton?

He got Fellaini to work from the front and score goals for a period, and he got something out of a crocked Louis Saha but in the end the first player he has been able to recruit (at a knock-down price) that worked, so far, was Jelavic.

He spent big money and it didn't work. Beattie had the odd spasm, Andy Johnson did his best without really looking like he could lead the line and Bily, well enough said really. If he is to be criticised it is in buying these players when they weren't good enough. How many posters here decried the purchases at the time though?

It has been said here that management is getting the best out of what you have and in a team game with so much at stake, this isn't Sunday morning on the rec and then off for a curer and a laugh with the barmaids, the prime objective has got to be concede no goals.

A wise man said that the team that scores most generally wins. I'd add to that. The team that concedes none doesn't get beat.

Now that doesn't mean that it is all I want to see. It is the minimum acceptable though. When you have a team that is not particularly competitive, particularly against the teams acknowledged to have better squads that is where you start from; you would be mad not to and out of a job pretty quickly as a result.

Mike Walker was recruited because of the style he had shown at Norwich, Howard Kendall was brought back because of what he had been able to create in a different era, (Other than stability, God knows why we employed Walter Smith.) They didn't provide the football we all want to see.

I reckon that nobody, given the opportunity to manage a football club, would say "I don't care what I've got available, it's going to be dour." At least outside of Italy that is. Why anyone would think that Moyes would take that view if he believed he could do otherwise I fail to appreciate.

Enough anyway, it's history. I cannot blame the manager for an insurmountable fuck up by a defender, I can blame him for being defensive but not for an individual mistake that changed the whole mood of the game.

I won't alter your view and you won't alter mine so I am not going to discuss the semi any more on this thread.

I'll give it three months before Eugenes theory at #729 is being touted on here as fact, and that's a fact!

Dont know how true the confirmation is, its from the Express ?

"I mean, come on, we are Everton after all"

Eh?

It"s odd as that"s what those who hold the opposite point of view to yours are saying.

We are Everton....NOT Stoke.

(nb: we were once known as The School Of Science not the school of trying to nick a 1-0)

Well, if nothing else, this post shows that 'Everton' (and the IDEA of Everton) means VERY different things to different people.

Tony says "If you want entertainment, go to the flicks" well last season 3000 did just that and if the level entertainment hadn't changed, it might have been more.

Steve Smith (849) Please note the second line of the post you refer to, note the caps and (consequently) don't blame me if that does happen.

By the way, didn't that ACTUALLY happen before England's world cup game against Poland in 86?

That the players basically fucked off Bobby Robson's sweeper or formation or..er...something?

Anyway as I said, far fetched but not impossible..and it WAS a drastic change (sews more seeds and hope it becomes 'fact'))

Moyes will never move to any team that has serious ambitions of winning anything. I can see him going to Celtic and perhaps winning a SPL or 10, but thats about it. Then again we could all probably win the SPL now that its just a single horse race.

Like I've said for a long time, forget the pre-match comments from other managers telling us how "world class" he is(just before they wipe the floor with us). Look at who gets employed when clubs with ambition look to appoint a new coach. Moyes is going nowhere, and sadly neither are we.

Liverpool - And the last manager to leave Everton to manage Liverpool was...?

Villa - Step up from EFC? Are you having a laugh?

Chelsea - Erm, existing manager won Champions League...perhaps this was a factor?

Man City - Appointed Mancini, who was out of work, as opposed to Moyes, who would have cost an arm and a leg having finished the season strongly with EFC. Perhaps a factor?

Spurs - See Man City.

Spooky stuff.

Sir Philip Green is a big football fan and a Tottenham Hotspur supporter. In 1987 he suggested to Irving Scholar, the Spurs Chairman, that Tony Berry be appointed to the board. In 1991 he helped Terry Venables raise the last £500,000 needed to purchase shares in the club.

He was also involved in the transfers of Rio Ferdinand from Leeds United and Louis Saha from Fulham to Manchester United.

He is heavily involved with Everton Football Club due to his friendship with chairman Bill Kenwright, but has no intention of formally investing in the club. He arranged for another friend, Planet Hollywood's owner Robert Earle to purchase shares from former director Paul Gregg during a struggle for control of Everton in 2004. He offers business advice to the club alongside Tesco CEO Terry Leahy and helps negotiates player transfer fees with agents.

Sir Phillip is also involved with Watford due to his friendship with Watford chairman L. Bassini. He is due to help them redevelop Vicarage Road Stadium.

We could remind ourseleves that we know he gets over 3m quid a year.

Or that we know his boss thinks the sun shines out of his arse.

Or that we know he's under less pressure than the bed tester at Slumberland.

Or that we know he has told us quite clearly, that he will leave if ever the GP faithful gives him the impression that he had outstayed is welcome... we also know that hasn't happened.

We could take into consideration that he has told us on more than one occasion that he is a loyal kinda guy, who wants to achieve his ambitions with Everton.

We could, at a push, force ourselves to believe that he has grown to love the club.

But we'd only do all that, if we REALLY wanted to answer the "Why is Moyes still at Everton?" question.

That England World Cup thing wasn't 86 it was the1990 tournament before we played Holland, not Poland who I think Lineker got a trick against in the '86 tournament you mention. I was about 14 at the time but remember thinking we were ace against the Dutch, Gascoigne was doing Cruyff turns n stuff.

Myth/rumour has it that the players, or some senior pros at the '90 tournament, wanted to go to the sweeper instead of the 4-4-2, and not fuck the sweeper off. I've heard this flat denied by England players like Terry Butcher and Bryan Robson. Bobby Robson said he went with it cos our back four had off by them in the '88 Euros.

Sorry man, highly unlikely it actually ever happened!!

Excellent, well articulated post. Moyes has always looked after the core defensive duties irrespective of financial position and knows the limitations of his own teams. He knew we were dross until the turn of the year but we hardly had an outlet. He wants to see good football like any one else but we struggle to compete in the market for attacking ( generally higher cost) players.

Piennar safely in blue and retaining our key players will give us plenty to hope for. A right sided Donovan clone and a second forward (to replace Cahill) may be too much to hope for but would really get things moving

Disregarding media messages and hype, the one thing Moyes keeps repeating is that he has told the board/Kenwright that investment is needed. I dont recall him ever being as clear or quite so outspoken on this.

"sun shines out of....."

"less pressure .... slumberland"

well done Dave you've nailed it (words I never thought I'd say)

Just when I was thinking of moving to wacko land to lap up all the crackpot theories.

Second question, over the 10 years, has he had more relative success than big Phil Scholari, AVB, Ramos, Santini, Jol, Sven and the above?

The irony of this is that Man Utd lost the title to City when Ferguson decided to go against his natural instincts and set his team out not to lose. Unfortunately you are also wrong about Mourinho playing anti football this season against Barcelona. It simply didn't happen that way. In the decisive game away at Barcelona, Real Madrid won 2-1 and had twice as many shots on goal as Barcelona. They often attacked four against four. Zonal marking said that it was "rare for an away side to have so many corners at the Nou Camp", BBC sport said that Real Madrid "brought the European champions to their knees in a way few have managed in recent years." So to say it was anti-football is completely false.

The game you discuss was around the Champions League semi with Chelsea, and had I believe already lost quite a bit of ground in the title race.

People have clearly come out and said Moyes hasn't got a top job in over 10 years. All I have asked is we're these better appointments? It then highlights it's not just about ability, but availability as well.

Next you`ll be claiming that Ossie, Baines, Hibbert and all those other hard fuckers in our team didn't round on Moysie at Swansea and say "Look you Ginger twat, this is how its gonna be from now on in."

Inadvertently you've stumbled onto the crux of the matter: Moyes really is no different to Mark Hughes, Avram Grant, Roy Hodgson, Allardyce, Curbishley, Bruce, McLeish, McCarthy and all the other identikit managers.

He is an ordinary manager among many ordinary chumps, I have always thought EFC would keep trying to eventually find our extraordinary man, but going into his 11th year has blown that notion out the window.

Like Everton, he is probably the best of the rest. Certainly far superior to some of the names you list; I know it, you know it.

Somehow, I have the hovis/last of the summer wine music playing through most of it. It then finishes off that you were stopping traffic to tell them Moyes had lost it. I curious how long did you escape for?

Some of these posts are descending into month python.

Not something that you had proof of, just something you thought was a possibility.

Now imagine you posted this theory but added (nb: so all but the very, very thickest twat knew you weren't CLAIMING it happened) - "It is ONLY a theory and I have ABSOLUTELY no proof".

Now imagine there was someone so desperate to 'win' an argument, they posted suggesting you HAD claimed it.

Can you imagine how pitifully desperate and dumb that person would be?

Well, all I can say is good job there's nobody on Toff....hold on what's this?

"Next you`ll be claiming that Ossie, Baines Hibbert and all those other hard fuckers in our team didnt round on Moysie at Swansea and say "look you Ginger twat, this is how its gonna be from now on in"

Oh now that"s just disappointing.

Oh alright then, that chappy Steve Bruce might be marginally duller than the one who continually gets overlooked by what we refer to as the "top clubs".

Whatever "squerming" is I'll stop doing it now you devilish advocate you.

"Second question, over the 10 years, has he had more relative success than big Phil Scholari, AVB, Ramos, Santini, Jol, Sven and the above?"

Over 10 years Moyes has won ? a couple of LMAs

Scolari over the last ten years ? Tourneo Rio-Sao Paolo 2000, Copa Sul-Minax 2001, World Cup 2002, Uzbek League title 2009 together with his previous 14 silverware victories

AVB ? Primera Liga 2010, Taca de Portugal 2010, Supertaca Candido de Oliveira 2010, Europa League 2010

Ramos - UEFA Cup 2006, UEFA Super Cup 2006, Copa del Rey 2006, Supercopa de Espania 2007, Football League Cup 2007

Santini ? on a par with Moyes; won fuck all.

Jol ? KNVB Cup 2009

In essence, all bar Jacques Santini have actually won more than Moyes and before you respond with "but hey, those weren't in the EPL." Well, hey, Moyes hasn't managed in those leagues either so no proof he could or couldn't have won those silverware either ? I doubt he'll ever win a Fifa World Cup though.

"He needs to act, if he needs to sell to buy then that is what he needs to do.
We simply can not afford to just hold on to the players we have with no new players coming in."

Nail. Head. Hit.

Cheers Barry, we'll turn you yet.

But he answers a slightly different question: Why have none of the 'big' teams even approached him when thinking to fill vacant positions?

The easiest answer, and the one along your line, is that simply he's not available.

But Moyes's little add-on comment at MotD kinda suggested that he might be if the right offer came along...

Which puts us back full circle to the pertinent points of Mr Garside's article and his pertinent observations that certainly resonate with a fair few fans... even if the apologists are scrambling to denounce this journo for his 'condescending' audacity.

Tony J Williams: "Condescending clap trap, even if a lot of does ring true." Hillarious!

And that's that. Want Davey to stay and get some reasonable budget. But if he goes, the next fellow's in and we'll see... But, Moyes or another, we still have rich owners who refuse to invest even a little of their own money.

What are they thinking now? Not indicting or mocking them. The different grounds developments are dead, yet they won't dump the property they purchased to cash in on a grounds development? Then what?

It seems to me, investing their own cash could give Moyes the last few dollars to take a legit run at Top 4. They have the money, no question of that. They're rich. Why keep this property, Everton Football Club?

(I know, I know, this makes you laugh.... right?)

Wow! Are there only two choices in your universe? Not everyone is as narrow-minded as you seem to imagine. I guess thats what happens when you read the Guardian or the Observer, you get a very sad view of the world. You seem to take every generalisation to heart. You should stay off the Malt. If I was going to have a go at you, which I haven't, I would find something worthwhile. It must be really boring for you living in Germany, so I guess I should make some allowances!!!

Take a chill pill, fella.

For the Nth time, Moyes's 'good' points, as touched upon in your 877, have us where we are, his 'bad' points could contribute in some way to why we are STILL where we are; QED, end of, nutshell, nail, head, simples, lol, swalk etc etc...

?Would his Everton association automatically have excluded him from the deliberations of Liverpool's American owners? In this enlightened age is 10 years in a blue tie enough to cross him off the Anfield wish list??

I think most blue and red supporters would answer, Yes !

If someone writes an article you don?t agree with, one cheap and nasty solution is to cast doubt on the author's background so here goes...

Kevin Garside was the Telegraph?s Formula One correspondent for five years. In 2005 he received the Sports Journalists Association award for Specialist Correspondent of The Year.

In 2011, Garside wrote on golf for the Daily Telegraph and Sunday Telegraph

In this link to his articles http://journalisted.com/kevin-garside#tab-work it lists the 10 topics mentioned most by Kevin Garside as: F1 Ferrari FIA Formula One Hamilton McIlroy Mclaren United Westwood Woods.

Maybe this guy isn?t an avid watcher of Everton at all.

The charge sheet was he hasn't had a sniff of a big job. I counteract that perhaps some chairmen have made some really poor decisions over their hires. You can probably add Harry red app as well, Moyes standing 4 years ago was better than his.

You can twist the question as much as you like, but it really is a simple one - why is Moyes still at Everton ?"

Its a fair question, but the guy goes on to give us the reasons. Again this would be fair, except he offers nothing in the way of facts, he merely gives his opinion. . . So what ? you might ask yourslef, they do it all the time right ?

Well yes they do, but an awful lot of people have waved this column triumphantly as if it were some sort of vindication of all the criticism they have ever levelled at DM. read some of the posts above they have lapped up every word of it.

My post was an attempt to give some genuine reasons as to why he is still here, I wanted to brush aside the crackpot theories and stick to what we know.

Michael Kenrick gives the most realistic explination as to why Moyes is still here. "He`s simply not available". he nails it.
Ok Michael`s OCD does eventually kicks in and he talks about an "add on", but he was never going to be able to bring himself to say anything in complete support (this is Moyes we are talking about)

The article is condecending and it saddens me to think Evertonians are falling all over themselves to subscribe to this gobshites notion that we are some kind of lesser light. It saddens me even more to read on other threads people (match going Evertonians) declaring Moyes wasnt offered at clubs like Villa or Newcastle.
What next ? he wasnt approached by Norwich, or Swansea ?

No Everton Manager has ever left this club to take what he believes is a bigger job, could this be because there wasn`t any ?

Football is unrecogniseable from the game I grew up with, there are clubs out there who are wealthy to wipe out famine and still win a bag full of trophies. While others grew richer we seemed to have missed gravy train, after gravy train, but we are STILL here, respected and admired by the entire footballing world. we`re Everton.

I have a theory too (feel very free to dismiss it as crackpot) I believe that when
Other clubs look for a new manager, they will always look at the the Managers of other clubs, but when they will look at Everton they see a Monster. An institution.
Yes there are clubs out there who can buy literally anything they want, but I believe that although some may covet the Everton manager (whoever he may be) 99% of the so called bigger clubs will take a nervous look then move on, they know who we are.

Unless He was at the end of his contract . .They simply wouldnt dare

TUT!

I tried to get some of those "chill pills" you mentioned.

The man in the chemist told me they don"t exist.

He said "It"s not an actual pill sir, "take a chill pill' is an expression, it basically means you should calm yourself"

I said "but I am calm".

He laughed and said "Ha ha I know, it's strange sir, it"s one of those 90s expressions that gives away much more about the user. It"s basically is a deflecting mechanism, an attempt to conceal an inner range"

I thought wow, Boots has improved.

By the way, love that you follow my life so closely and have committed to memory every detail (good old TW, saves you ACTUALLY stalking).

Have to admit that I always find the trend of Moyes bashing strange. Of course I can see that he has his faults, mainly his reactive style of football and a tendency to 'choke' in big games and hence a trophyless cabinet. For these reasons I would not necessarily be adverse to a change, though surely the only viable options would be up and coming and hence 'risky' choices. Still i'm not adverse to a change.

What I don't understand is the bile that I hear from supposed Everton fans directed against a man who has undoubtedly improved us over his time here and has done so with, in my view, considerable dignity and integrity. Yes he is paid alot but that surely is because he has been here so long and like most employees the longer you stay with a company the more you get paid.

It may be the case that he has taken us as far as he can (personally I don't think it is). It may be the case that Everton is the height of his career and he will never get to manage a 'Top 4' club (again I personally doubt this). Even if these two things are true there is simply no justification for some of the one sided abuse and arguments directed at him. I believe he has worked hard and to the best of his ability and has been a great representative for the club. Personally I hope he stays for at least one more season, but if he does go he deserves at least a little credit for what he has done.

I?m sure his brief every season is just to finish near the top and make us an attractive proposition for potential buyers. If we could win a trophy, then that would be a bonus, but just staying in touch with the top teams is all our current owners are expecting. It?s hardly ?Nil satis nisi optimum?, but that?s the reality of our position, and David Moyes is fulfilling his bosses? wishes year after year.

Like all fans, I?m not happy that we?re not winning things, but at least we?re now in a position to believe we have a chance, which is a big improvement from where we were when Moyes took over.

Simon Hoare (968).

You say "Have to admit that I always find the trend of Moyes bashing strange" followed by "What I don't understand is the bile that I hear from supposed Everton fans directed against a man who has undoubtedly improved us over his time here and has done so with, in my view, considerable dignity and integrity". You finish "And he deserves at least a little credit for what he has done". Sorry but I find this disingenuous as it attempts to lump together everyone who would like to see Moyes gone, as a bile-filled hater who gives Moyes NO credit. Simply not the case and the distinction should be made. The fact is those who think Moyes has run out of ideas, or would prefer to see something or someone new (ie: 'bashers') have, I'm convinced at one time or another, stated they think he has integrity/is honest/hard-working/loyal or whatever. Personally, though I would love to see him gone, I know I can challenge anyone to find any post from me re Moyes that calls him shite, a twat or anything else that could come under the heading 'bile-filled' and I've no doubt the same applies to many others.

Real played good football, but in one Barca game they played anti-football.

For the record they were 4 points behind, not one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2132791/Barcelona-v-Real-Madrid--El-Clasico-LIVE.html

And isn't that exactly what the original article is pointing out, Moyes faults?

In the final against Chelsea, circumstances could not have been more favourable. Louis Saha gave Everton the lead within seconds. The hour had surely come; a first major trophy since 1995 was there to be claimed. Seize the day... Not a bit of it. The opposite occurred. Everton seized up behind the same defensive tactics that prevailed against United, lumping long balls from deeper and deeper positions. Chelsea couldn't miss in the end.

Totally agree with that bit. I'm glad Moyes isn't going; I want him to stay becuase I still believe he is the best man for the job and he will win something in the near future ? but I still struggle coming to terms with the FA Cup Final and last seasons FA Cup Semi-Final.

Here's a helpful glossary of terms and their explanations for you

'Tell me about it' - I agree with you but am too afflicted with 'hip speak to say so.

'End Of' - as in Moyes is shit/great end of. Here are my thoughts - I've not the capacity nor the wit to debate further.

'Get Real' - I disagree with you, but I've not the brain cells to put together a coherent argument against your position so i'll suggest that your argument is flawed by reflecting upon reality and your position in reference to it.

'Nail. On. Head' - I think I might agree with this statement but don't have the time nor the wit to reflect further

'Am I the only one?' - yes

'Hoofball' - the tactic of kicking a ball a long way, hopefully to a team mate - used in a perjorative fashion to suggest a trend even when no such trend exists

'Everybody knows' - I'm convinced this is the case but I'll enlist the rest of humanity to back me up just in case I'm wrong.

"Are you on something?' - I have no coherent argument to offer you, so I'll blandly suggest that you must be in an intoxicated state to make such a statement.

"Get a Life" - You have used big words that I don't understand and perhaps reflected upon this argument for too long, therefore I'm suggesting that your career, your friendship patterns, the car you drive, the person you married are all inadequate to mine (Even though I'm sitting on a football website at 3AM in the morning typing this in skidmarked underpants I've not changed for three months, the missus has ran off with the teenager next door and I've a BMI of 38.2)

Hope this helps you... have a nice day now LOL

No blame America because none-speak is the baseball cap in literary form, ubiquitous and unthinking (nb: by the way, when I was a kid, anyone walking around Liverpool wearing a baseball cap would have run the risk of meningitis due to the amount of "fucking big greenies" heading, quite rightly, in their direction)

Americans long ago gave up ACTUAL sentences and conversation, opting instead for short meaningless 'bursts' and unfortunately we, like the sheep we are, eventually follow.

If Gettysburg address was written now it would read "Like four score and like seven years ago blood, our like fathers like SO brought forth on this like continent whatever, like a newbie like nation innit" etc blah.

Saying things has basically been replaced by NOT saying things.

"Awww thad is SO cool"

"Awww du-UDE!"

"Thad is OSSUM!!" (when referring to things like a cheese sandwich - where do they go for an adjective when they see a tsunami?)

"Talk to the hand!"

"Way to have egg and chips!!" (that needs work)

And of course "WHADDEVVA!" (meaning, "I give up and have lost this argument badly).

It all says (to use a quaint old British expression( fuck-all.

Personally, I always imagine those brits quick to adopt Americanisms as being not unlike Timmy Mallet (looks AND 'personality')

There are others however stubborn in their refusal to see any of the good things that Moyes has done and able only to cast negativity and abuse on him and his work. These are the bile spewing ones I refer to under the (admittedly too general) term 'Moyes Bashers'.

Eric Myles- I don't take particular issue with the article. I think its pretty unbalanced but i'm more riled by those on here who use it as some sort of total vindication for their hate campaigns.

Also, what is a young lady after when she tells me I'm a "sexyass" and asks if I'd like to see her tu-tu?

EJ - lost me with the Canada reference; probably me but...

Now that the question-like statement appears to be on the wane, could we address the annoyance of the simplewicks who write "should of, could of, would of, must of" etc
In my day, I'd have had a well-aimed board duster bounce of my temple

Now, back to the football

Iy may fully surprise you that I fully agree with your assertions in post 991 and I would add such 'corporateisms' as 'blue sky thinking', 'run it up the flagpole and see if it flies' etc etc as another species within the taxonomic rank of your genus.

By the way, without opening old wounds, you postulated (add that to your list) that something was going on 'in my head' based on an earlier post.

I'll riposte: Based on my background of degree level training in Scientific Method I feel fully qualified (literally) to put forth a definition of a 'theory' and requisite supporting evidence and its context rather than just running something up a flagpole and seeing if it flies...

Judging by some of the posts above and rapid acceptance though I fully expect a corresponding article from Tony Marsh or some suchlike entitled "What really happened in the halftime player revolt at the Liberty Stadium?". My response that we soaked up their pressure and smacked them by outplaying them when they ran out of steam and ideas would obviously be shouted down by a "Get real, the players ignored Moyes and did it their way as they always wanted to" or, well, you get the picture....

As an aside, I also understand things like projection, transference etc etc in psychological terms so nothing was really 'going on in my head' per your assertion. Plenty of case studies for that within this site though (or "enough for a whole conference even" - (c) 'Fawlty Towers')

Just saying like....

That explains the puzzlemant and reaction at the only project meeting where I tried the pseud-speak, saying "thank you for that, Jay-Peter, let's run it up the flagpole and see who steps in it"

You asked what those other managers (your list) had achieved in last ten years so I showed you, even saying they hadn't had ten years in the EPL just as Moyes hadn't had the years in their previous leagues and not a hope in hell of winning a Fifa World Cup. Your arguments (both) not worth a fucking balloon.

(Anyone who went to Seel Road 1971-76 will know Mr Peacock (vicious bastard).

Re the article; I agree with what Garside is saying, to a point, but I've seen Moyes sides play some of the best 'fantasy football' at Everton since Kendall Mk1 - they just don't do it enough - is this the fault of Moyes? - well he has to take some of the blame; but you cant create great works of art without having great artists to paint them.

If Moyes had the likes of Ronaldo, Messi, Silva, Aguero in his side and played boring football - I'd be shouting for his head; in fact, if we could afford that lot, I wouldn't want Moyes managing them.

I'd argue that in Moyes, Everton have a mechanic rather than an artist - but if the wheels were coming off my car and the engine is spluttering, I'd rather have a mechanic to keep it on the road rather than Michael Angelo painting pretty pictures but the car going nowhere.

As Steve (001) would say "good anal dudey fella"

Regarding the "Swansea Half Time Ruck", your right there was fucking murder.

I heard, from some fella, that at one point in the carnage Archie Knox burst in wielding his infamous baseball bat and dished out a few straighteners......

At least, that's what I heard... [Stands in centre of bar with pint and shrugs shoulders innocently.]

I can't remember too many beautiful passes by Reidy, when he twatted the opponent's best dribbler, or Bracewell taking out a forward.

There has always been a messy player to break up things but, because we were winning, they have been elevated to a standard they simply did not have,

Gavin - I was the one that posed the question, with hindsight would Moyes would have done a better job than those who failed and was he better than Hughes, Grant and Woy. The clear answer is yes, he would have done better than Sanitini and Co. Did he have a better track record than than Hughes, Grant and Woy. Clear answer: Yes.

Therefore, should he have had a top 4 job? Yes, he should... although Chairmen have clearly not made the choice due to going for a sexier (wrong) option or the huge compensation package for killing off a £3m contract with X number of years to run.

So please take your magic mushroom comments and ballon, and stick em.

"Ok, so Moysie leaves for his "Big Job" at a "Big Club" and we get Roberto Martinez in to play the "attractive" football so many of you desire. Then we get relegated".

Brilliant argument!

Touché

The debate of fantasy, you can"t lose with that.

Here"s mine

"Ok, so Moysie leaves for his "Big Job" at a "Big Club" and we get Roberto Martinez in to play the "attractive" football so many of us desire. Then we we win the league....and the CL the following year....and every week, the lottery is won by an Evertonian.....how could you not want that? ".

Well..as long as we're allowed to invent shit to help our arguments.

As for your assessment of why the beautiful game isn't possible, and using the past and present to do so, you appear to be forgetting that the PRESENT Everton side, second half of the season, showed they are MORE than capable of giving it a go.

Nobody is saying we should be Brazil 1970, just that we should play like we did second half of the season and elbow the first half of the season shite.

(and anyone who can't see there is/was a dramatic difference should probably be watching rugby)

He was clearly lying to you. From the nature of your post it is clear to those who are of a certain age that he was protecting your fragility. Not to worry though, I heard that the Germans have excellent facilities for people of your ilk. After all as you said "I am calm". At least the medication is doing its primary job!!

As for our style of play under Moyes, it is like everything else in this modern age, inconsistant and in serious need of a massive cash injection. It seems that you, being so calm like, wont have to worry too much, blood!!

You're wrong there.

Eugene did nothing more than shed a light on americanisms how that could be construed as hating America is nonsense.

I Say, and to borrow a verse from my "Old Friend" Paul Simon.

"It's really not my habit to intrude
Furthermore, I hope my meaning won't be lost or misconstrued
But I'll repeat myself, at the risk of being crude"
But where the fuck did you get that theory
I Said where the fuck did you get that theory"

Why do so many of you think we'll collapse into the abyss if we lose Moyes ? We've had a lot worse, and a lot better managers than Davey and never, well not for fifty odd years anyway, been relegated. Relax folks we'll be OK honest, and we just might play some decent football for a full season not just 3 months.

By the way Eugene just read your listing number 991 Dude, respect, sweet and all that shite. To borrow another line from another friend of mine, Slim Pickins as Taggart in Blazing Saddles "My God Mr Ruane you use your tongue sweeter than a $20.00 Whore"

'Americans long ago gave up ACTUAL sentences and conversation, opting instead for short meaningless 'bursts''

Humour eh?

Not like Eugene ever uses it, honestly if you don't get it, and even if you don't like it, to seriously get to "anti american" is stretching it.

We are now onto anti-Americanism!!

I'm sure he can stick up for himself, but it appeared to me ER was making a throwaway comment on the changing language and culture of America and how it's so readily be adopted by people in this country, possibly referring to the creeping Americanisation of our society.

If you take a look and a listen, you will see it. We are a country massively influenced by America on many many levels. We are almost like cousins. American popular culture has pervaded the globe, for example, is it only 3 countries that doesn't sell Coca Cola?

Finally, like quite a few things he posts I feel there may well have been a touch of flippancy to it(the horrors of the Liberty Stadium half-time massacre aside obviously)......as this discussion isn't particularly important!

In other words Jack... sort your head out!!:-)

Let's lighten it up a bit eh?

Let's move onto euthanasia or something.

Damn, it doesn't work when you write it down.

"If Gettysburg address was written now it would read "Like four score and like seven years ago blood, our like fathers like SO brought forth on this like continent whatever, like a newbie like nation innit" etc blah"

Your response..

"Poor education is the same in every culture. If you hate Americans for some reason, please express those biases elsewhere".

To have got "American hater" from my post, I can only guess you were 'educated' at St Thick's mixed juniors, then attended Cabbage College and finished up at the University of Durrrr.

Sam (059) - Your pulling out of context one sentence, from what was obviously a light-hearted response to Phil Bellis does you no favours at all.

High five!

Go figure!!

Seriously, read ALL the post and get a fucking grip!

Mark (075) - Erm.........314!

If the football is as interesting in September as these pages often are, then it will be a cracking season.

UP TOFFEEWEB AND ALL WHO CONTRIBUTE!!!

Ask yourslef this, where would we be if Tim Howard hadn't kicked of at the Liberty Stadium?

Eugene an American Hater? My arse, you owe the guy an apology.

Despite Tottenham?s interest in Andre Villas-Boas, the obvious choice ? to me ? for the job is Everton?s David Moyes. The Scot is almost perfectly suited to the vacant Spurs role, and was unsurprisingly the bookies? favorite. After a decade in charge at Goodison Park, Moyes is universally considered to be one of the Premier League?s finest managers, and may well relish the fresh challenge of taking over at a club with genuine Champions League aspirations.

For many years, Tottenham?s identity has been somewhat reflected by the famous Danny Blanchflower quote:

?The game is about glory, it is about doing things in style and with a flourish.?

Whether Spurs fans like it or loathe it, this is how they have become known to the world ? as a football club who take pride in doing things the ?Tottenham Hotspur Way?, the term given to what is believed to be the ?right way? of doing things. The philosophy, which seems more at home on the streets of Brazil than on the frozen football pitches of Britain, has been celebrated all over the world, in its many different forms.

The winds of change might soon be blowing down Bill Nicholson Way, however. The team?s ethos is undergoing something of a metamorphosis, as the ownership attempts to shift more emphasis onto results, thereby fostering a ?winning? culture within the club. Undoubtedly encouraged by the team?s recent fortunes, the Board of Directors sent its clearest signal of intent yet this week by sacking Redknapp. The veteran manager has been widely praised for introducing an exciting brand of counter-attacking football to the Lane, but has also come under fire for inconsistent results, especially towards the end of last season.

Despite the current uncertainty surrounding the club, Tottenham Hotspur still find themselves in a relatively strong position. Yes, they missed out on a spot in next season?s Champions League, but the club?s last three league finishes have been an impressive fourth, fifth and fourth. It?s by no means mission accomplished, but it is a fine foundation to build upon. Looking at the quality in the teams who finished around them last season (Manchester United, Arsenal, Newcastle) you would have to say that the core of the team already in place at Spurs is definitely capable of maintaining their top-four status, year-on-year. Obviously, some additions may be needed in order to shore-up the squad, but the incoming boss won?t need to make drastic, wholesale changes. What he will need, to surely satisfy Levy?s requirements, is a reputation for consistency and Premier League experience. David Moyes has both in abundance.

More than anything else, Moyes? track record conveys a noticeable theme of consistency and reliability. First, it is worth noting that he?s been in the same job for a decade. In the ruthlessly transient world of modern football, that is an incredibly long time, and a number of conclusions can be drawn from this fact alone. Not only has he maintained a high level of performance over his entire tenure, but he has also been able to withstand the considerable mental and emotional pressure imposed on Premier League managers. What?s also impressive is how Moyes has been able to remain focused on his project at Goodison Park for a long period of time, not to mention the loyalty he has shown to the club ? all attractive qualities in a manager.

In the last six seasons, Moyes has guided Everton to fifth place twice, and finished no lower than eighth. In his ten full seasons in charge, he has only failed to finish in the top half twice. There aren?t many more consistent figures in the game than the Everton manager. This becomes a far more impressive record once you consider the extremely limited budget Moyes has had to work with at the club.

Between the end of the 2002/03 season and the start of the 2010/11 season, Moyes? net transfer spending figure (gross sold subtracted from gross purchased) was £10.5million. That comes to a net spend of a paltry £1.3million per season. With the obscene amounts of money being pumped into football clubs these days, it is hard to fathom how David Moyes has been able to build such a strong team year after year on what is, comparatively speaking, pocket change.

His ability to create a team seemingly out of nothing is probably the most remarkable thing about Moyes. How his teams consistently out-perform some of their far wealthier rivals defies all conventional wisdom. Comparisons to Billy Beane, celebrated pioneer of sabermetrics in professional baseball, while predictable, are valid.

The Scot is a brilliant scout and shrewd businessman, but there is much more to him than that. He?s also a fine tactician who has always been able to squeeze every last drop of talent from his players. Unlike some coaches, who are married to a certain formation or system, Moyes is a master in tailoring his tactics perfectly to work to the strengths of his players. Given his extraordinary ability to get the very most out of Everton?s extremely limited budget, the thought of what he could achieve with Spurs? considerably larger chequebook is an intriguing prospect.

Finally, Spurs should hire David Moyes because he has more Premier League experience than any other candidate, and that is really important to the club.

People will discredit the Scot for his lack of Champions League experience, but to do this is to miss the point completely. In their search for a new manager, why would Spurs place much importance at all on experience of a tournament in which they are not participating? It?s all well and good to be well-acquainted with Champions League football, but it counts for nought if the team?s league performance isn?t good enough to qualify for the competition.

That?s why David Moyes? unparalleled Premier League expertise more than compensates for his lack of European Cup success. At the end of the day, it is the domestic campaign that holds the key to Spurs? future, and it is Moyes? experience in this area that makes him the right man to lead the Spurs marching on. I?m sure that Daniel Levy is of the same opinion, and I believe an approach is still clearly on the cards. Would Moyes be tempted? That remains anything but clear.

You can sit safe in the knowledge that your country at least has the ingenuity to invent this nonsense, Our youth lap it up like thirsty dogs.

This site is about robust debate so stop complaining.

TW seems a bit more sterile than when I joined the site about 6? years ago.

However, he did call Moyes a pussy, which unfortunately means our yank custodian is clearly a raging misogynist.

The point I was trying to make was, we have a manager who understands the modern game. The next one might not, or indeed understand what it is to be a blue.

Was that Spurs fan Philip Green?

I saw your 10th place and chuckled. I assume we are only going to start our season in March?

Whilst you find it important to remark on my post at 928, you fail to take any notice of its content, in regard it does not select any individual for ridicule, just a plethora of increasing myopia that has swept this site since the end of the season.

As for how long I have been around, well, just because you fail to see what is infront of you does not mean that it is not there or that it does not exist. You are perhaps part of hysteria which seems to follow this recent Moyes bashing. Where is the proof of any of the MOB that anyone could do better?

It does not exist because there are no parallells to draw from. It is all suposition. For the record Andy, I have been "Red carded" by Michael in the past for getting into a heated debate, some of which have been with Barry Rathbone, but as we agreed, all is in good humour between like minded, but not clones, who are passionate about our club.

Obviously expecting balance in every post on a public forum is unreasonable but considering this is meant to be a site for everton fans I do find the overpoweringly negative posts strange at some times. I suppose us Brits do love to moan...

Clearly your post was light hearted and 'humorous' but it was hardly pro-American was it? Not that I care that much, not trying to police, just thought that Jack Molloy had at least some cause for irritation...

So this must make me an expert as well as I had a go at Moyes from the first game of the season until peanuts came back!

The form (results and aesthetically) this season suggest he is moving forwards and I'm not so sure a bigger club won't come in for him at the end of the season.

He can go on and on about "finishing the job..." but we all know the job will never be finished with this lot of shady, cheap owners... I wouldn't be surprised if Mitt Romney was a minority owner at this point.

No pressure + big salary + esteemed post = not going anywhere

So from one sentamentalist to another who should replace Moyes Eugene? Kendal, Royle, or is it all too much and we should just pack in, take our ball (leather and laced) back home on the bus along Penny Lane as the sun sets to the Z cars theme and remember how it all used to be?

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/evert...0252-31929559/

The hunting down of AJ's diving! Fellaini's late tackles and whatever else the BBC and other outlets can find , indicates that there is an agenda out there and every article has to be scrutinised to find its true meaning.

Brendan Rodgers will get more air-time and positive comments for winning two games in a week , than Moyes' or any future Everton manager will receive for working miracles season after season on a shoe-string budget.

We are second in the league albeit temporarily and playing for the most part in a fashion that our supporters admire. Compare this with Newcastle, who have hardly set the world alight or had any major triumphs since the late 1960's , yet they are universally lauded as a club to watch and demand a higher status than Everton in the media's eyes.

Rooney , Rodwell, Arteta and Lescott have left Everton and gone to play with teams almost assured of CL competition. How many other clubs could have lost those types of players and still managed to not ony survive in the prem but compete in the top 10 after they had left?

MOTD , Sky Sports etc all focus their attention on the usual suspects with Newcastle , Spurs and a new team on the block (think Blackpool , Hull , Swansea , Norwich etc) thrown in to show they aren't biased.

Audience and circulation figures dictate the media's outlook, eg Breakfast sports news on Monday morning refering to the Red's defeat at the hands of Man U said "Liverpool are 18th in the league - but not for long" . I bet if we had had their start and they had ours the report would have been something along the lines "Everton remain rooted in the relegation zone folllowing a calamatious result at Goodison"

As an aside is it written in stone that any former Anfield player is gauranteed to cement a place commenting , writing or presenting a football related show?
COYB 'We don't care what the Red-Tops say" or indeed the Broadsheets.