- Toffeeweb - Season 2011-12

Gerry Quinn
1 Posted 02/01/2012 at 17:34:48

Well, well, well - green grass has turned brown - but would have him back for 1 million. Would he return?

Peter Barnes
2 Posted 02/01/2012 at 17:37:46

Personally I would bite your hand off around the elbow to get him back.

Ricardo Gimpardsle
3 Posted 02/01/2012 at 17:38:39

Tell fat Harry that he always makes mistakes with our rejects. We dont need someone who was so eager to leave us.

Mark Riding
4 Posted 02/01/2012 at 17:43:54

He turned down our contract as he wanted £10k more per week apparantly. I hope he stays at Spurs and see out his big contract just to piss Harry off.

Mike Gaynes
5 Posted 02/01/2012 at 17:44:49

Doesn't surprise me... I predicted he'd be unable to break through at Spurs and would regret the move.

Interesting, however, that Harry thinks his value has doubled while he's been in cold storage.

Mark Riding
6 Posted 02/01/2012 at 17:48:35

Mike, your right. A year older. No game time. Double the value. Cheeky bastards.

Jeremy Benson
7 Posted 02/01/2012 at 17:55:43

Err, no.

His value hasn't doubled whilst he has been in cold storage. He was within the last year of his contract, so his transfer fee was less than it would have been if he was under a 1yr+ contract (which obviously he now is).

He was always a £5mill+ player. Just you cant get 5 million for them when they can go on a free in 6 months time.

Simples...

Martin Handley
8 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:01:29

Don't want him back we already have to many older players on big contracts, Cahill,Neville etc.
We need younger hungrier players coming in ,Nicky Maynard or Justin Rhodes perhaps.
Pienaar would also have to take a considerable pay cut which I don't think he would,he's also slower and less of a goal threat than Drenthe or Donovan.

Steven Traynor
9 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:07:27

Would love him back but when were talkin about paying money for a player and not gettin them on loan you just no its not gonna happen.

Kiern Moran
10 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:11:13

Well he has been a very silly boy, should not have left. Great tallent but we do not have 5m to spare, would offer to swap Saha for him.

Tony McNulty
11 Posted 02/01/2012 at 18:13:23

Most of us on here thought he would be nothing more than a benchwarmer at Spurs. A number of us also warned that he was an effective player in the Everton system but might struggle elsewhere.

Five million? You could almost get a proper one for that.

James Stewart
12 Posted 02/01/2012 at 19:07:11

Ashame to see his career turn for the worst again. Great player. Only thing he lacks is a killer instinct his overplaying was infuriating at times. Remember screaming shoot when he was on the edge of the box but he rarely did! Still beats watching Neville in midfield!

Matty Wharton
13 Posted 02/01/2012 at 19:43:32

I'd rather eat broken glass than have that little shit back at Goodison...

Mike Gaynes
14 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:38:53

Jeremy, your point is taken, but I still see nothing in Pienaar that is worth five million. I loved the guy's speed, work ethic and attitude, but an attacking midfielder who never scores a goal isn't worth that kind of money.

James, I was never screaming for him to shoot. I've seen him shoot. He can't.

Andrew Mackenzie
15 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:46:50

One of the few recent Everton players who could actually hold on to the ball taking pressure off the defence however I agree with most of posts that he could not hit a barn door. On balance thanks but no thanks due to lack of goas, price and age.

Kevin Hudson
16 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:44:22

"He made his own bed, etc.."

To be honest, you could see his head had been turned when he was consciously & theatrically taking centre-stage, yet actually producing sod-all, in front of his 'Bafana,' team mates at their home World Cup.

Finacially, a great year for him. Professionally, a disaster. I do not want him back.

Jimmy Sørheim
17 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:52:47

Hope he rots on the bench as I do not forgive his walking away when he had a concrete offer in hand from us. Take him on loan if you can but he is not the one you want to buy when he has just shown that he will leave you hanging once and you do not want that to happen again. Said for him... but, since he pissed in his own bed, he has to lay in it.

Dave Wilson
18 Posted 02/01/2012 at 20:54:34

Not a world beater but he understood basic priciples of the game, like supporting the man on the ball by moving and making himself available. Pity none of it rubbed off on Heitinga, Coleman, Neville, Cahill and Jagielka.

Our footballs been ugly since the day he walked out the door

Gavin Ramejkis
19 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:33:13

A difficult call... on one side, a money-grabbing shit who couldn't wait to jump ship; on the other, a creative midfielder to replace Neville pretending to be one?

Don't think it matters either way; the club doesn't have ten bob ? never mind £5 million.

Ryan Holroyd
20 Posted 02/01/2012 at 21:40:48

IF he comes back, I'd be happy.

I don't care if he left for money, most people on here would do the same thing.

It's not like he was born in Walton.

He's a proffesional footballer not a life-long fan of the team.

James Morgan
21 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:24:02

Martin, I'd prefer Jordan Rhodes over Justin to be honest. As for Pienaar, he can sod off. Give Barkley the chance instead.

Max Fine
22 Posted 02/01/2012 at 22:34:47

Hmmmmmm, unless he was back for free and on his previous wages (prior to the offer he snubbed) then no thanks.

Drenthe is actually the player Peanuts thought he was. So I would pull out all the stops to keep the Dutch fella instead - Royston has the same will as Pienaar to get forward but with far more footballing ability, and with far more years left in him.

Tony Twist
23 Posted 02/01/2012 at 23:39:02

As always, spurs taking the piss with the fee. No Thanks.

David Hallwood
24 Posted 03/01/2012 at 00:05:18

For an attacking midfielder he didn't score enough goals, and if we've got any money to spend(which I doubt) it's got to go on someone that doesn't get a nosebleed at the sight of the goal

Drew O'Neall
25 Posted 03/01/2012 at 00:22:19

He left to play for a better club at a better level.

Everton had plenty of time to sign him up but didn't offer him the wages.

He never let us down and worked his arse off right to the last whistle and still allowed us to command a fee when he had us over a barrel..

Anyone who thinks he was out of order therefore, can go and eat worms as far as I'm concerned.

Ernie Baywood
26 Posted 03/01/2012 at 03:22:38

If the only footballers we want at Everton are those who won't leave us due to loyalty, a lack of ambition, or limited ability, then things aren't likely to get much better.

Pienaar is a cracking little player. Easily gets in our team if we could afford him, and fits the Moyes model in terms of his defensive work. So he left us. I can't blame him for that - we're a basket case of a club.

Peter Barry
27 Posted 03/01/2012 at 03:29:54

Does anyone else think like me that crafty old 'Arry just took Pienaar from Everton because he could and that he knew it would cause us problems? Remember at that time we looked down on Spurs.

Rahman Talib
28 Posted 03/01/2012 at 05:49:03

Pienaar, Pienaar. He's our man. If he can't do it, no one can.
GOOOOO PIENAAR!!!!

Chad Schofield
29 Posted 03/01/2012 at 06:47:55

Last thing we need is another past his best player who is given an instant place because of past form.

I think the idea on trying to get Drenthe to stay with any money saved by not going for Pienaar is the best I read above - God willing of course.

Roman Sidey
30 Posted 03/01/2012 at 07:14:03

If I were the management, I'd say this to him.

"Here's a contract. If you look closely, you can see we have given you the extra 10k a week you asked for. Only thing being, the 60k you were on is gone, so you are on 10k a week, you fucking wanker!"

Erik Dols
31 Posted 03/01/2012 at 08:20:14

Even if I lose the sentiments I do not think we should do it.

If we had £5 million we should spent it on someone younger, maybe even say to Moyes "Here's £5 million but you can only spent it on players from the championship" or something like that. As Moyes is proven in getting value for money in that area. In all honesty I do not think we have £5 million though.

Phil McKeown
32 Posted 03/01/2012 at 09:07:40

The lad continued to put a shift in right up until he left , he wanted cl football and yes he was a bit greedy. However the work ethic and his link up with baines was quality and we miss it , why did we spend 9m on billy when we already had pienaar ? He only left on the cheap because of the contract situation so 5m isn't unreasonable , can we afford it ? Probably not , sell billy , drenthe on a free and use the money elsewhere

Dave Lynch
33 Posted 03/01/2012 at 09:15:51

No way a fan of the money grabbing, bible bashing, back stabbing twat but how about this.
Fuck McUseless off and sell Bily, this would free up the wages part of the deal as long as he'd come back on his former wedge.
Offer Arry 3 million.

Joe Aylward
34 Posted 03/01/2012 at 09:21:51

Three questions strike me here:
Are we a better team with him in it?
Will we score more goals with him playing for us?
Can we afford him?
Yes, yes and probably and unfortunately no

Rob Dolby
35 Posted 03/01/2012 at 09:22:17

I have never known it work when a player goes back but in this case I'd have him back just for his link up play with Baines. You could rely on some decent football played between them. Baines must be so frustrated with whoever is played in front of him for some reason Billy and Mageye drift inside or generally dont show for him. The stumbling block is the £5m.

Liam Reilly
36 Posted 03/01/2012 at 09:30:35

No
The club would have to have idiots in charge to buy back a 29 year old for twice the amount we sold him for 12 months previously. Oh hang on....

His return would definately hinder Barkleys Development (what does he have to do to get off the bench) and would likely mean Drenthe wouldn't be offered a contract.

Sam Hoare
37 Posted 03/01/2012 at 09:59:32

Would definitely take him back on loan but zero chance of paying anything over £2m to take him back. He was a good player but at 29 and having run out the way he did i think i would rather see Gueye and Barkley developed.

Besides which any cash available will surely be going towards a new striker...maybe Maynard or Jordan Rhodes, or perhaps a cheeky bid for Neymar...

Joel Jones
38 Posted 03/01/2012 at 10:18:44

Not for me I'm afraid, a year older, a serious injury and no game time isn't exactly going to have helped his game improve. If we are taking anybody from Spurs, I would prefer Kranjcar, younger and more versatile with 5-10 goals a season in him.

People are saying buy a creative midfielder quite regulary but I think our priority is a forward; what's the point in having a playmaker if nobody can convert? If we had a striker in form, we wouldn't notice this 'need' for a creative player!

Besides, keep it a secret but theres this lad called Barkley at the club who is apparently shit hot and any minute now....

Mark Riding
39 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:43:57

Is their a limit to the amount of players you can have on loan ?

Stephen Kenny
40 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:48:05

If it was a choice, which knowing the way our board operate it probably is, I'd keep hold of Drenthe at the expense of getting Pienaar.

That said Bily going may see this happen and I'd love to see both players on either wing having a go at the fullbacks.

As much as I like Coleman's enthusiasm he lacks a bit of guile and composure and would be as effective coming from deeper.

What a threat we would carry from the flanks with Pienaar, Baines, Coleman and Drenthe.

Trevor Lynes
41 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:45:17

Facts...Pienaar filled in admirably for Arteta and was worth parity with him paywise...He always gave 100% and was a great foil for Baines forward forays.

He took players on and was the most fouled player we had...He scored some goals and one was memorable when he took it from inside his own half and chipped the goalee....We have no one on the books who could have scored that goal !!

Negative facts...Arteta has left so all the argy bargy about pay is nonsense.

McFadden is now on the payroll for at least the money we should have awarded to Pienaar to keep him..... He was a big fan favourite and now he is getting shit for supposedly holding out for pay parity with other team mates which is what most people would do if they were in the same situation....

I am disgusted at the vile jibes at the lad who did nothing but give his best every time he wore the EFC shirt.

Ernie Baywood
42 Posted 03/01/2012 at 12:57:05

Under the current management it' wouldn't just be a case of "would you rather Drenthe or Pienaar?".

It would be "would you rather Pienaar for every minute or Drenthe in and out?".

I know we're dealing in hypotheticals but I believe that's the issue. We can have creative players but only if they put in a defensive shift will they play regularly. Drenthe will never be a regular like Pienaar was.

Sam Hoare
43 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:03:54

Think thats a fair point Ernie. Though you can't be sure that Drenthe will never learn that work ethic can you? The likes of Pienaar and Arteta did...

Given our finances i'm not sure we can afford to spend much on players over 28. Drenthe at 24 has a great future ahead of him. Have a horrible feeling it may be at Spurs though when they sign him on a free at the end of the season to strengthen their Champions League squad for next year.

Gavin Ramejkis
44 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:14:01

I agree Sam, you can realistically think if Everton don't sign Drenthe there will be interest elsewhere in the EPL.

Steve Guy
45 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:22:41

Can anyone point to any player who has made a return to any Club and been as big a success as first time around ? No, me neither.

Peter Laing
46 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:31:04

There is no chance of this deal happening, factor in the supposed £5 million transfer fee and approximately £4 million per year in wages and you can see that this is a total non-starter. I reckon that Pienaar will decide to continue to warm the bench at Spurs as in my opinion his biggest motivation is money, and he is earning far more now than he could ever earn at Everton.

Ricardo Gimpardsle
47 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:32:50

Steve Guy 42

Yes!! Bainsey, well he was on our books originally anyway.

Anthony Lamb
48 Posted 03/01/2012 at 13:18:00

Oh for the Lord's sake - play Rodwell and Barkley for a consistent spell and put your trust in the lads - they have everything to make them a formidable partnership in the immediate and longer term. Even if Everton had the money to spend, Piennar should be the last player to warrant interest at £5 million. Sure he could "hold the ball", sure he was "busy" but he sure did not give you any consistent end product - either in terms of regularly incisive passes producing goal scoring opportunities or, save for one or two very good goals, any regular contributions on the goal front. He left for Spurs for the money and an employer with greater chance of success. Fine. He got his money but the manager now thinks he is not up to his "project". Tough. Shame is, Everton in their inimitable fashion did not, in the first instance, get as much for him as they should have done. But at the moment we should be really getting these two lads into the action on a consistent basis and demanding more from the so-called senior players to help them do so securely. The LAST thing they need is another 29 year old "floater".

James Flynn
49 Posted 03/01/2012 at 14:35:54

Not against Peanuts, but he's gone. I'm with the folks here who'd rather see the youngsters worked into the Side.

Jeremy Benson
50 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:12:16

Not really sure why there is so much debate on whether we want him back;

a) he wanted to leave us
b) we can't afford him
c) top of the priority list is a striker

I would have thought that a + b +c would give a very obvious answer as to whether we should...

David Chait
51 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:19:19

I wouldn't take mt fellow saffa back.. Drenthe is more of a threat.. far speedier... and younger.

Know where I would spend my money... (if we could afford RD)

Barry Rathbone
52 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:17:45

I'm with the progressives, show some gumption and play the youngsters they may not be world beaters but neither is Pienaar.
The lads who come on against WBA made a difference as much for being eager as anything else.

Nothing personal but Pienaar had his time as have one or two others.

Stephen Doyle
53 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:22:31

First McFadden, now Pienaar??!! Why not go the whole hog and try and get Marcus Bent or Beattie back? FFS lets look forward and get the youngsters involved.

Martin Faulkner
54 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:22:50

Definately a no to Pienaar coming back

Steve Guy 42, not many, maybe
Peter Beardsley.

Mick Gallagher
55 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:37:42

Agree with you Stephen #53 but I would have Lescott and Rooney back. Not that we have any chance but we can dream

Lawrence Stolworthy
56 Posted 03/01/2012 at 15:50:03

Hi All. This is my first post...so go easy on the newby here.
I'm approaching 40 now and can remember as a kid watching the great side of the mid 1980s.
That team had ball winners like Bracewell and Reid, creative players like Sheedy and Steven and dependable defenders like Ratcliffe and Stevens. The fact that the world's best goalkeeper sat behind them all was the icing on the cake.
However, that wasn't the end of the story....to win games they had to score goals and those came from the likes of Gray, Heath, Sharp and Lineker who could all score goals ranging from one yard tap-ins to 20 yard shots having rounded a defender or two.
Personally, I would have Pienaar back as he is a talented little player. His shooting wasn't always top notch but he could skin a defender and pass the ball. He also linked well with the excellent Baines. Plenty of people on this thread are saying that we should buy a striker. Ignoring the question as to whether Saha, Anichebe, Vellios or Straq are actually any good...the basic issue is this: None of them will ever be a threat as a lone striker. There is a reason that the likes of Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and Man C score goals and that is that they have at least two strikers on the pitch. A target man always needs a foil with him and it doeesn't matter whether we have an ageing Saha or a young Marco van Basten on the pitch (if only?)...the fact is that a lone striker just isn't a threat.
If Kendall had played a lone striker 25 years ago we would not have been scoring enough goals to win the league. The fact that his strikers back then were a constant threat was what allowed his midfielders to find the space to score a fair few goals themselves (apart from Sheedy who didn't need to get any nearer to the goal than 30 yards).
David Moyes needs to realise that he needs to play more than striker (and I mean actually use strikers who can threaten rather than just pushing a couple of members of a six man midfield ten yards further up the pitch). That will bring us some goals and allow our rapidly stagnating midfield to chip in with the odd goal too as they are just on the back foot too much at the moment as opponents know that they can put us under pressure without too much fear of a counter.
Pienaar would fit in nicely into that midfield...though I agree with you all that Drenthe would be a fine permanent acquisition.

Tony J Williams
57 Posted 03/01/2012 at 16:15:14

You'll fit right in here Lawrence.

Lawrence Stolworthy
58 Posted 03/01/2012 at 17:03:29

Thank you Tony! I hope you are right....I seem to have ended the thread??

Stephen Kenny
59 Posted 03/01/2012 at 17:12:36

Don't worry Lawrence,

A few of the flat earth society will be along soon to tell you how two up front is suicide, 4-4-2 is sooooo outdated and a load of other nonsence about how players who like to pass on the floor are a disgrace to thier parents etc, etc......

Wayne Smyth
60 Posted 03/01/2012 at 17:18:41

Well said Lawrence! I agree with everything you wrote.

As for Pienaar, I have no ill will against him as I have the same opinion as Trevor(41) that he always gave his all till he left and he was completely within his rights to do so. However, I wouldn't have him back now.

In Drenthe, we have a far more effective player who may not quite have the technical skill pienaar had, but makes up for it with pace, strength, directness and a mean shot, he's also 5 years younger.

Either way, we should also be looking to offload the likes of McFadden, Neville, save the wages and really give our youth players like Gueye, Vellios and Barkley a proper run in the team.

Because we're skint, Moyes needs to pull the stops out to find the next Cahill's and Arteta's, we shouldn't be buying players on high salaries with no future resale value. Our club has no future if we do that.

Trevor Lynes
61 Posted 03/01/2012 at 17:37:23

Wayne # 60....Im not advocating a move to get Peanuts back..Im just angry at the people who are vilifying him for leaving us.
Unfortunately we dont 'own' Drenthe as he is on loan and if past experiences count for anything...Drenthe will be moving on and maybe up....Why we brought Macfadden back is a total mystery to me...he was released by Birmingham FGS and the money he is getting at Everton would have been better spent in keeping Peanuts....Ironically Arteta has left so it frustrates me even more.
Now I think we must try to lower the average age of the team and bringing MacFadden back is crazy and makes no sense at all....its a GIZ a JOB situation.
We really need to replace Neville, Cahill and Saha pretty quickly and Distin and Hibbo in the near future.

Matthew Lovekin
62 Posted 03/01/2012 at 19:45:36

Good player, works hard, has a few tricks.

However:

not many actual assists, or goals.

I'd pay £3m max. Never £5m.

Brin Williams
63 Posted 03/01/2012 at 20:35:39

Is this the'Arry that offered £1 m for our Captain - what's 'is name - plays in midfield!
And the cheek sod wants £5m for a benchwarmer.!!
Would take a straight swap !!

Alan McGuffog
64 Posted 03/01/2012 at 21:02:30

Don't slag 'arry off for being a businessman. He buys for £2 and wants to unload for £5. Look at our financial wizardry....we buy for £11 + and let go for £1.25.
And we wonder why we are broke. And Jesus wept !

Gavin Ramejkis
65 Posted 03/01/2012 at 21:05:48

Some very good points Lawrence and as far as Saha goes, he's pretty much said the very same in public that he can't do it alone anymore to no avail. As well as Anichebe took his goal against the baggies we see 2 strikers on the pitch far too infrequently. There will be games crying out for just that to take it by the scruff f the neck and there will be games of damage limitation, the trick is getting the balance right and not being so predictable that other managers barely need to do any homework prior to playing against us.

Joe Bibb
66 Posted 03/01/2012 at 21:26:09

Pienaar ran until he lost the ball, shook his head as if it was unlucky and then did the same thing all over again. Don't romanticise about him, look at the few goals he scored for us; look at his even worse assists record... dont tell me about how he linked with Baines because nothing came from it.

If he is the wonderkind why didn't he fit in at Spurs? He was crap in the World Cup as well.

Apart from his drink-driving, his woman-beating, and his 'I love God' tee-shirt, he did nothing to hit the headlines .

Matt Garen
67 Posted 03/01/2012 at 21:27:34

Man city score plenty but only ever play 1 striker in a 4-2-3-1. Chelsea won 2 titles playing 4-5-1. You don't need 2 strikers, you need 5 good midfielders and a big, quality goal scorer who all know what they are doing. Something like fellaini and rodwell holding, drente left, donovan right, barkley central behind velios, with the current players available. Obviously a more experienced and proven scorer would help that.

Marc Williams
68 Posted 03/01/2012 at 21:28:45

Lawrence @56 .. Good first contribution there fella & some good points, well made.
Someone should remind Moyes that our Class sides of the past didn't contain 6-8 defenders in the team at a time !

Stephen @59 .. " flat earth society".. I liked that alot, very funny & does sum up some of the Moysiah brigade.

Alan @64.. spot on fella.

Martin Mason
69 Posted 03/01/2012 at 21:17:47

IMHO Everton have to play 4-5-1 or have a weak midfield and wide RS defence overrun.

There is no comparison with the 80s side which in Reid, Snodin, Bracewell, etc., had brilliant central midfielders and in the sublime Sheedy and Steven the best wide midfielders in Europe. We also had brilliant defence, two brilliant strikers and could play 4-5-1 or 4-2-2 against anybody and win. They were a great side as were the 1970s side who actually played a very flexible and potent 4-5-1.

Now welcome to 2012. We have a pathetically weak squad, weak central midfielders, weak wide players and weak forwards. Miles away from the top four squad wise and miles closer to the bottom 3. We may as well be centuries away from 1984 and 1970 and we have no money. We are in the EPL which is international not playing with British players against British players. All in all we are in the shit, not in some kind of between owners holding mode where a new manager comes along, switches to 4-4-2, tells the side to attack and we majestically soar up the table paying off our debts, buying a new ground and becoming a side that can compete with the franchised clubs based on gates of 40k and zero brand outside of the NW of England. We are in survival mode as a club and we may well not survive, we are a dying ex-giant in a dying area of a changing city yet with fans who expect 1984 again every year when there is no chance of that happening. For me 1984 (the irony) was a never to be repeated blip in the long decline of a club that in reality started in 1971 when the great Catterick side imploded.

I personally am amazed that we are doing so well as I genuinely believe that the most likely route for Everton based on its resources is ever down. If we win at Spurs we're up there in the top 8 or 9 and could finish there. Can we realistically expect to do better than this? Can we realistically expect that anybody with the good of the club at heart would actually pay anything for it. Surely the club has no intrinsic worth?

We have reached the point where we can either keep a squad as strong on current wages and buy nobody or reduce wages or sell players to buy new. What is it to be?

Moyes out, 4-4-2, attack, attack, attack, NSNO, remember 1970. Why can't our stupid management see this?

Stephen Kenny
70 Posted 03/01/2012 at 21:54:06

Fellaini and Rodwell weak??? Maybe Rodders contribution isn't always up to scratch but weak?

I can't think of a better pair to have in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or 4-2-4 or 4-5-1 with out and out wingers that play high up the pitch.

I'm not asking for all out attack and neither is anybody else from what I've seen just a shifting of the balance a bit because I think were better suited to it with this squad.

Roman Sidey
71 Posted 03/01/2012 at 22:03:47

Matt Garen, while you are correct about those sides playing 4-5-1, the point we try to make about Everton using this formation to the death is that we either don't have the troops to pull it off, or they aren't being trained to play it effectively.

Chelsea won the title playing it with CMs that could make a very penetrating pass into the forward line, and the two wingers (Robben and Duff) were so adept at running into the box onto a ball or providing the final pass that they were essentially forwards anyway. And they also had a beast of a target man in Drogba who can trap, turn and shoot like noone else.

Everton play 4-5-1 with CMs that pass sideways or backwards, wingers that aren't wingers, and forwards who are actually playing as box-to-box midfielders.

As has been said so many times before, a team should play to it's players' strengths, not force every player to play to a set in stone system.

Dave Wilson
72 Posted 03/01/2012 at 21:55:03

"Moyes out,4-4-2, attack,attack,attack, NSNO, remember 1970, why cant our stupid manager see this ?"

Err . . we played 4-5-1 in 1970, even though we were able to buy the best players in the country.

Mark #67

As a member of the "flat earth society" Can I ask you ; When People like SAF play out and out defenders in midffield they are callled utility men . but when Moyes plays internationally reknowned utility men in midfield you "The Enlightened" call them defenders.

And can I also ask, when was the last time you saw Everton play with EIGHT defenders ?

And finally, can I ask, if YOU "The Enlightend people" think by including our goalkeeper when counting up the number of defenders we have on the pitch, think that WE "the flat earth socierty" dont notice ?

Are Everton are the only team in the world who could play with a flat back 4 and still be playing 5-5-1 ?

Roman Sidey
73 Posted 03/01/2012 at 22:31:16

Dave, I laughed a little with your paragraph about not noticing the use of a GK to make up the numbers. It just set a little tone of "Us vs. Them, let's see what we can get away with here."

Puts a comical spin on this whole debate.

To take a similar line with you for once, I think SAF does get away with it more than Moyes, but I think it's because people are just so sick of seeing Neville not play well in that position.

However, after United's game against Blackburn, I don't think anyone would be praising SAF's use of "utilities" for a little while at least. I could not believe that he, the manager of that club, would send out that combination of players in front of their own supporters.

Matt Garen
74 Posted 03/01/2012 at 23:08:13

Its a bit of a catch 22 really for moyes in my opinion. Does he stick to what he knows, boring formations, predictable defensive outlook and crap football and finish 4th-8th every year, above clubs who spend 10 times your budget every window and get slagged off by 1% of your fans for not winning the league or do you think fuck it, you know what, the boys on toffeeweb said it worked for the ship and pilot 2nd team, lets go all 4-4-2, our left back is top scorer but fuck that don't matter, at least I can't be called dour that way. Might even get a few quid off Bill from the relegation parachute money to buy another pair of strikers and go 4-2-4 next season.

Gavin Ramejkis
75 Posted 03/01/2012 at 23:57:04

The whole 4-5-1 for other teams must surely to christ have been beaten to death by now, as examples Barca or Man City, look at the players in their team and how many of that midfield are defensive midfielders? The reason it isn't working anymore for Everton surely has something to do with it being overweighted with defensive minded players, remove the creative/attacking midfielders and you get no defence splitting pass, no midfielders who can go past their marker, a lone striker having to come back to the halfway line to pickup the ball or appear on the wing looking to cross the ball, only trouble then is who do they cross it to exactly?

We don't have creativity anymore and very few players who can or will go past their marker so Moyes needs to find a new trick or tricks and play the cards he has left to play, instead of trying to play the same trick with the wrong tools for the job.

Rahman Talib
76 Posted 04/01/2012 at 04:43:37

i think we should ditch Pienaar and spend our precious dollars on Darren Gibson

Dave Wilson
77 Posted 04/01/2012 at 10:57:20

Gavin

The reason people refer to other (successful) teams using 4-5-1 is because every time a "super new young coach" comes along using 4-4-2 they become flavour of the month and we get all the usual suspects screaming for him to replace Moyes, the clamour only subsides in April - usually when he`s relegated.

We dont even have one top striker let alone two nor do we have four midlfileders who could cope with being out numbered by the five man midfiled every other side puts out against Everton.

4-5-1 will get us best of the rest, 4-4-2 with our current squad of players would get us mullered week after week.

Wonder how "entertaining" we`d find that

Lawrence Stolworthy
78 Posted 04/01/2012 at 12:09:04

Dave (77),
You raise a completely valid point about us not having one top striker yet alone two. However, one striker (whether a top one or not) is never going to be particularly effective with a flat midfield line behind him as he has no support. Two strikers running into the box can split and move defenders around and give each other space. Sometimes that will also give the midfielders a bit more space to try to penetrate themselves.

I suspect that the reason that some other teams load their midfield against us is simply to counteract our five man midfield. This may be the reason that we are involved in a fair few rather dull "midfield tussle" type games.

I would prefer a game where both sides played a bit of open football....we might get mullered by Man City, Arsenal and Man United but there should be enough teams less adept than us at playing the beautiful game so we can pick up some points. If not, the what's the point having season after season of hoofing long diagonal balls around just to stay in the Premier League? Do we really want to watch that when more entertaining stuff can probably be seen with a sunday afternoon pub side?

Craig Mills
79 Posted 04/01/2012 at 22:27:52

For me, I would try get him back, even if on loan until the end of the season. With him and Drenthe on either wing, Felli and Rodders in the middle, it should be a midfield that produces chances.

Terry McLavey
80 Posted 05/01/2012 at 00:53:43

Get him in on loan we do that with every other cunt!!

Peter Fearon
81 Posted 06/01/2012 at 13:59:26

So we lose him for 2.5M in part because we won't match his wage demands but buy him back for 5M and presumably match the money Spurs gives him. Not good business.

Tony J Williams
82 Posted 06/01/2012 at 14:16:43

Don't worry Peter, we won't be buying him so the money/wages issue won't come up.