The “if you’re not with us then you must be against us” attitude is prevalent in so many threads. Only today I read some abuse of certain posters by this small minded MOB, but MK seems to just clear the crap and pretend his little darlings did no wrong, acting like the half wit parent of a complete delinquent.

Having your own views on this site has become a bit of a crime. The names of those who stand up to these imbeciles are bandied about as some sort of modern day lepers, when the reality is that the small minded little thugs are the ones with zero personality and little in the IQ status. They know who they are, but when confronted they just become extra abusive and wait for daddy (MK) to clean up their mess. Oh the joys of modern life!!

I am also not surprised that you think that MK does a good job as from where I sit, you seem to be one of those given extra licence to criticize fellow blues, a trait that some would prefer not to do, but we are not all given the choice, are we?

It just appears that, some people who hold certain views, become outraged when it transpires that the majority on this site, don't. You are one of them.

It's an open internet forum for Evertonians, not the Oxford Debating Society.

If you want to join in a debate, do so; if you get your feathers ruffled, same as with everywhere else and normal day-to-day life, you make a stand or you walk away.

To give that a bit more bite in relation to TW, I've served a ban for going over the edge — but am back — it's there and it does happen.

It works both ways.

It seems that you follow the same format with your snipping little bitchy comments. It’s like having a different discussion with the same person who uses a different name each day.

Being an individual would be a good start for you, instead of using the underhand sarcasm tool, again. It is so repetitive.

"Dean you need to take a step back and breathe, you jump on the old MOB label which is childish as fuck, I've had that particular thread with Nick trying to show how childish it is"

So "the MOB" is childish, but your constant use of "Gollum" and "Kenshite" is not childish, eh Gavin?

I couldn't even begin to fathom what "underhand sarcasm" is.

Y'know what, Dean. Grow a pair. If you think I'm out of order, tell me. Just stop whingeing.

And when I refer to the MOB ('Moyes Out' Brigade) there are those with the backbone, honesty and belief in their views (Barry Rathbone for one) who don’t get all pretentious when confronted. Respect is earned in life — not given out like sweets to kids at a party!!

Between the A and the .

We're not discussing this in a place of work, or a court of law Dean. This is just us, chatting shit, on an internet forum. We disagree. Get off your high horse, FFS. Lecturing about respect!

As I stated earlier, there have been times when I have been out of order. I take this on board and try not to repeat it. But you are a grown man. If I offend you, at any stage, tell me. Don't just get a "titty lip", and sulk.

As for "point proved", all you have proved is my assertion that some posters are overcome by this conspiracy that TW is against their views. Perfectly displayed throughout that entire BU thread, to be honest.

The point proved was aimed at Gavin for his little ditty, but as you bit down so hard on it, I thought I would run with it to see where you went. Funny how easy it can be to lead someone down the proverbial cul-de-sac. I am not titty-lipped as you say and far from sulking, but you seem to be an expert on both topics so I guess you have your arse in your mouth, or do you always talk out of that orifice?

As MK says, we are human so consistency can only ever be a goal not reality but our approach to comments can vary depending on the subject matter, our mood, the general mood of the fanbase (half the Wigan thread might have been axed on another day but it was clear a measure of catharsis was in order!), how much time we actually have to moderate each thread (which is sometimes very little) or, yes, the poster him or herself.

I don't have much more to add to what Michael has so eloquently stated above but I will reiterate that just because a comment appears on the site, it should not be automatically assumed that it has been vetted or even seen by us because often they haven't.

At times this site's contributors have forgotten our common love for all things Everton and become shrill and forceful.

Though I have suggested Moyes should have signed Drenthe after last season ended, I have recieved abuse for that ever since by some.
I get that Drenthe was wrong in his morals at times but, as he was a free agent, I thought it was a good idea to sign him up.

I think that personal attacks and bullying is wrong, debate is a good thing, that is why I write on TW. I hope we can all just act civil minded, and treat each other with respect, and respect the views of others. It is basic really.

Personally, I do not judge people based on views, I like the debate and that is it.

You seem to be a sensitive, easily offended person.

Maybe the rough and tumble on TW is a bit much for you?

So I may see one poster as a bloody great wimp and another as nasty bully. I may think one is semi-literate and another is a pompous windbag. I may think there is a lynch mob after my neck or another day be able to sit back and consider the views of others.

In the end, whatever someone says to me, I can just turn off the site or give a bit back if warranted or I feel like it. My experience is there is nothing the angry or aggressive hate more than a bit of humour.

So – in light of all the factors above – I think TW editors do a remarkable job and the tone and views of any thread lie with us. If a thread becomes unpleasant for anyone, just turn it off and return another time.

It will all be forgotten by then... well nearly.... There was that time that twat..........oops. Nearly overstepped!

BK is an insult to my intellugence with his fraud acts which sucker in the feeble-minded and gullible – again, my perspective; if you want to challenge that with some body of evidence, the floor is all yours.

I also recognise that Lyndon and Michael founded this site, they pay for it and they do all the work on it. There's not much censorship as there is on other certain sites but I respect their right to manage it as they see fit. Perhaps it is a real strength of Toffeeweb that so many of us feel a sense of ownership and belonging here, but the buck stops with LL and MK.

I am sure every man on here has been annoyed by someone as well as having annoyed someone too... so, if you cannot hack it, don't come on here. The lads who run this site get on people's tits at times but the job they do is top-notch; I couldn't do it. They will make mistakes, they cannot satisfy and have the same view of thousands of blues, so stop crying about it.

Secondly both sides of virtually every discussion on TW have people throwing insults around, and both sides appear to be blind to their own indescretions. Read a thread where you are not overly concerned one way or the other and you'll see what I mean.

Finally if you are still not happy maybe Michael and Lyndon could vet every post before it is made visible on the thread. Of course this would mean that the post match discussion would take a week and would be more a list of opinions than a proper discussion, but maybe that's what some people want. Me, I think they do a very good job in very difficult circumstances. They may not always get it right but compared to the alternatives they are the best.

The questions it posed were ridiculous, it may as well have been written by Vicky Pollard of Little Britain fame – "Yeah but, no but wat'syer plan doh!"

I also think the Ed's knew it as well, but it gave us all a laugh anyway.

I always apply one rule for my own posts, If I would not say it to your face, in a pub for instance after the game, I won't say it to fellow posters on Toffeeweb; that keeps it civil enough for me.

Just because nobody else has challenged "Gollum" as childish doesn't make it any less so. Your use of it doesn't bother me but I find your getting offended at the use of the acronym "MOB" childish, while branding Moyes "Gollum", a touch hypocritical.

Personally I don't like a lot of the vitriol but the site is, I think, fairly managed. I've been gently warned a couple of times and felt that was fair.

Continue to post, Dean. Don't go away. We need contrary views to make us question our own beliefs.

The generic positioning for the majority of forums seems to be that ANYTHING can be said when its said as a statement, opinion or question but what CANNOT be said is anything potentially aggressive or offensive towards a person or group – even if it's in response to an aggressive opinion.

An example would be that someone could post "Hi I'm a Liverpool fan" right here on the forum and that would be seen as okay. But the following onslaught would be rebuked for the abuse of an individual. It's a crazy but consistent world!

Unfortunately the longevity of the current managerial tenure (for better or worse depending on your viewpoint) has resulted in the repetition of topics which has lead to what would be one-off flashpoints becoming often repeated long-standing pitch battles between the same characters. Everyone knows who is on what side of each debate. There's even been some threads when I've genuinely felt people haven't been bothered to reply to a comment that I know would usually be bait on a hook for them.

To be fair this is probably the only site where I've seen so many people (including myself) pull up one of the editors for how they were perceivingly editing the site and not found themselves banned from it. Despite disagreeing with MK on many of the things he has written on here he hasn't banned me... yet.

This is by far the best EFC website.

Well done to the editors and contributors.

True Brian.

As well as "get off your high horse"

But if you F and blind about Kenwright or Moyes, you can say what you like, or so it appears, just look here any day. On the other hand, if you suggest some of these sorts of posts are pitiful – my single but repeated crime – you get your posts monitored and rejected. This is the situation with me. I have never said anything personally abusive or used an out-of-place word; but I have mocked the bias and ignorance of posts (from whatever position the nonsense is delivered). So I am monitored and censored, and it is not worth me posting.

Okay, the guys put a lot of work into the site, they have editorial freedom, and I don't suppose it makes them rich, so in the end good luck to them; we can look at other sites if we can't speak freely on this one. But it is a pity worth mentioning one last time.

Personally, I find some of the insults a little childish but others can be very funny and witty. At the end of the day, we're all adults (I think) so just keep things in perspective – this is just an internet forum and not the Nuremberg trials!

If you feel someone has stepped over the mark then either; let them know, just ignore it, or if you can manage it give back (preferably with something witty)......

Life can be boring enough as it is – let's not take stuff on an internet forum so seriously......

Anyway the game kicks off soon and we will all be able to fall out good style then.

I've been a Toffeeweb reader for a good few years although have only started to post in the last couple of months.

It's fair to say that I fundamentally disagree with some of the viewpoints on here and I do get agitated, annoyed, irritated etc by some of the comments.

I'm drawn to the site on a daily basis though and that is clearly a reflection of the overall quality of the posts, debates and, most of all, editing by MK and LL, which makes it such a lively and provocative read.

Personally, I do think that there is too much personal abuse on the site. As Michael says that happens by accident (i.e. it is not edited) and it may give a false impression of bias.

As a new poster my contributions are still being moderated and I know (from having been on the end of a mild admonishment) that MK and LL do set high standards around tone of voice, intent etc. Some of the regular contributors (who are obviously not moderated) might do well to reflect on and consider this, I think.

One of the main causes of threads descending into the proverbial gutter, I think, stems from some contributors only ever being able to discuss a topic through the prism of their own particular agenda. So a discussion on almost anything will, more often or not, end up with Moyes out etc. That then brings out those with the counter agenda and before you can even say "Moyes out" you're off down a blind alley.

Yes, we all have agendas and there needs to be differing positions to engender a proper debate but sometimes a more considered, balanced and, dare I say, reasonable approach would be more helpful to the particular topic.

My own view is that there are more active contributors who are in the Moyes out camp and that may make the site feel unbalanced at times. That is not a criticism, simply my observation as an avid reader.

Overall, the threads are, as I say, thought provoking (or just bloody provoking!), generally well written, articulate and highly entertaining and long may it continue.

Humour can be one of those difficult things to get across the internet; people like Ged and Eugene are far better at it than me, and it's probably best if I don't try.

A couple of clarifications required:

Jimmy (#701) — It got to the point where every post from you was a call to bring back Drenthe. It was pretty funny at first but then it soon got tiresome. Now... if I could just get you to promise never to mention him again...

Steve Pugh (#728) — "Both sides of virtually every discussion on TW have people throwing insults around, and both sides appear to be blind to their own indiscretions." Exactly! Part and parcel of the banter and we let most of it go, or ... well, see the post about vetting every comment!

James Martin (#741) You are indeed a challenge... but you write intelligently and provide some of the highest quality technical analysis of our players and tactics that speaks for itself. I still don't agree with you very often, though!

Peter Hall (#747) — I count at least 30 comments posted from you, but the ones that caught my attention characterized "the manifest absurdity of many comments on this site" and repeated your contention that the site is full of "negative rubbish" and "ludicrous drivel". I don't mind you calling out specific individual comments and addressing issues as you see fit but such general and frankly stupid condemnations of all and sundry because they don't conform to your viewpoint... well, it just comes across as a somewhat ironic rejection of the entire discussion forum thing.

Okay... kick-off approaches at WHL!!!

As for Colin, yes maybe that went too far, but to highlight something, sometimes you have to step over the boundary. As he says it does not offend him, yet he does go to some lengths to say it which could show that that is not entirely the case. However, if it did, then Colin please accept that it was not personal, just a means to an end, perhaps not expressed in the most eloquent way!!

I have stated clearly that for me this is the best website for Everton fans and that, in general, I am amazed at the high standards, considering the variety of posters and opinions. That is the nub: we all have our opinions and – until we get overthrown by North Korea – we will all continue to want to express our thoughts and that will inevitably lead to 'situations'...

Long live the debate!!

As always I blame Kenwright for this problem of Evertonians being so divided..

It never happened under Peter Johnson. It is only since Kenwright started this culture of lies and deceipt that Evertonians became so divided.

There you go Michael that should ensure this post gets a record number of hits.

We now have BU, KEIOC, EABU, the "Happy clapppers", the "apologists", the "deluded" and the "MOB" not to mention the "small shareholders" and the "cronies".

I am sure there are some other tribes out there but that should be enough to get a party going.

Now, I don't think I'm shunning TW protocols here and I think it is entirely reasonable to point out that this statement from you is a little hard to swallow. Have you forgotten how on the live forum a little while back you threatened to beat the crap out of me?

Would you now perhaps like to apologize for your threat, now that you seem to have gone through some sort of transformative experience?

I promise that i'm not trying to drag on old spats but I had to say something, I nearly fell out of my chair when I read your opening line.

"Physician, heal thyself" springs to mind.

Most of the time while reading comments I thoroughly disagree with, I stop dead and think, "maybe that has some merit."

It's that reason exactly why I love TW and long may it continue.

Diversity is the spice of life, a gift. Mindless robots wondering this earth all thinking the same thoughts, agreeing on every point...

My Lord how boring that would be.

Mindless robots wondering this earth all thinking the same thoughts, agreeing on every point. Is that what supporting the Reds is like, I wonder?

Interesting that what was it two-thirds or so of votes on the should he or shouldn’t he poll did not back the sack (or want a resignation) given what some say on this thread and elsewhere about the mainly ‘negative’ or anti-gaffer nature of the site. Very interesting indeed and hardly playing into Dean’s hands (perhaps the reverse, that his own perceptions and radar are a little muddled). It might well be that Dean Adam’s MOB are more mouthy because they want something to change for perhaps, for some, as long as five years or more. But it seems somewhat contrary to the Adamsite and Doddite paranoia that this is, after all, a more balanced set of readers and if it tips any one way, well ……

I must confess that I was a little shocked reading Dean’s initial post and his responses in the back and forth that followed. There was a little hint of ingratitude there, I thought, a little hypocrisy (Dean’s 1st post was packed with the sort of insults, jibes, and childish potshots that he is only too keen to slam when coming from what he in his binary mind think of as the other side), and every bit as splitting as anything I have read on here.

MOB is an imposed title by Dean and others to impose an identity on a group of disparate people who they do not agree with ranging all the way from erudite Eugene to hot-heads like Pete (Barry). The label is divisive and it quite naturally encourages counter-labelling and sometimes I’m sure makes some dig their heels in even more deeply in MOBland. In other words, more cement for deep divisions.

Variety and give-and-take are the spice of life for me and arguments in all walks of life (just about) are necessary and can be healthy. I think that ToffeeWeb is in extreme good health in the hands of two upstanding Blues. If people don’t like banter, irony, labelling, putdowns, wind-ups (and Mr. Adams is very good at all of these things) then press the button to respond or turn off.

We Scousers (a goodly proportion of this community) enjoy jibes and our sense of humour is well known for its deep irony and sometimes jangling nerve-ends, and I see a healthy splash of that on these boards. Give and take: I say something, you say something, I mock, you mock back, I don’t agree with you and you don’t agree with me, sometimes there is middle ground and sometimes there is not.

There are naturally positions and people on these boards as in life more generally that any one of get rattled by/develop an antipathy for. There are times when you red something two or three times because it is so mind-numbingly dumb for you at any rate. People have to dig their heels in: ‘blame the players not Moyes’ over and over again drives me nuts, along with ‘well over the last decade we have averaged …’, ‘so who would fill his boots then eh, eh?’, ‘he’s been our best Prem gaffer, hasn’t he?’, ‘he knows more about footie than you do …’, ‘he sees something in Naismith’ (WTF?), and so on and so on, and we can turn the coin over and Mr Adams and his ilk will have their string of laments, fair enough, ces’t la vie and all that, it’s how it is.

A fair number on here contribute to polarity and take digs at others and other positions. I do and Mr Adams certainly does. We all have one common thread at least, at some point in our life we fell in love with Everton and for some, like me, the deal was done before I was born.

Footie sparks controversy and deep passions and so it is right to see that reflected on Toffeeweb. More important than life that gobshite said. So long as we can turn off if we want to and so long as we do not physically threaten each other or really (really) break some sort of ethical taboo then long may it continue. I personally am not insulted if someone calls me an idiot or this and that so long as my assailant is both giving and taking.

Michael and Lyndon began us and provided us with this fabulous facility and we must – and I do – trust them to run it fairly and squarely. I like MK’s often more ‘spirited’ interventions and LL’s perhaps calmer gardening. That somehow is a sympton and symbol of the cut and thrust of a site that is equally vital in the blue life of say me and Dean who I am sure would love nothing more than to have the chance one day to buy me a bevy!

Generally the quality of editorship is of a high standard on this site and it is hugely important that you continue to allow views across the whole spectrum to be expressed.

TW is a crucial resource for ex-pats like myself to see how other blues are feeling on all manner of subjects. Long may it continue.

When Dean referred to "small minded little thugs" and added "they know who they are", I doubt anyone on the site thought "My God he means me". Passion and abuse get quite close sometimes but I'd censor as little as possible.

How can "mindless robots" all think the same thoughts?

MK, not sure you agree with any word I say, or visa versa, but, and may I take this liberty, without you and Lyndon, we would all be a lot worse off, and without fear of being contradicted (for once), we all appreciate and value the contributions that you make toward our everyday lives. I get up in the morning, check MY TW, I go to work and now and then have a quick check of MY TW and then later at night check again my MY TW, it is all ours for whatever we get out of it and it is all down to you.

Thanks, Ian

This goes on for a while. One night he gets back and she asks what he has been doing and he says he has been shagging his secretary and she sees the chalk marks and says he is lying and that he has been playing darts.

My partner asks me what I am doing on the iPad and I say I am watching porn, she says I am lying and that I am on ToffeeWeb!

Ergo, mindless robots?

To the point, I like the diversity on TW – even if I can't seem to intelligibly explain why.

Ergo they can't think.

Clearly neither can I sometimes

In my defense, mindless was a euphemism not to be taken literally.

But now that I (just this very second in fact) see the glaring stupidity of my choice of words on a literal level I say to you Brendan... Damn good point.

[Jamie disappears until sober...]

Wow, that was a lot for you. More used to your one liners on the match day threads.
As a fellow blue, I would hope that we could sit and have a bevy or two. That would probably give me time to ask you why you feel that I am so pro Moyes! I do think he has done a reasonable job, but I would not say you could call me a fan of his. There are a number of points you make that if researched would show a different picture, but alas I guess that is your adaption of scouse humour. I get lots of that from my red father in law. He will always know that I managed to get him into Goodison to see real football instead of that propaganda he watches so much of on the dark channel.

I don't agree with lots of your comments in general, but I don't recall any particular reason for your rather vexed statements about me. They are of course your prerogative. Enjoy the rest of the season from across the pond, cheers, Dean.

Dean, you don't have to try to trick me into anything. If I disagree with you i'll let you know.

Like me you give and take and you spar in cut and thrust on here and you also like me have certain positions that you robustly defend - good for you - that are not often my own, but both of us want the same thing when all is said and done.

Thinking more deeply, you're right, needless to say, you do not come across as a Moyes-at-all-costs bloke, and I'll amend myself in future. Still not keen on the MOB stuff that struck me as a tad paranoid, forgive me. I think the site is fairer than you felt when you put that post together. but you would not have pressed submit unless you felt reason to do so and that needs to be respected.

A drink one day would be lovely and I do post long and winding posts too often, trust me, ask MK/LL.

Cheers

Paul

I don’t know how many regular posters there are (maybe a couple of hundred?). What is a pity is that we never hear from the other six or seven thousand (I am relying on the numbers who responded to a recent poll) who never post. I always worry about silent majorities. What are they thinking? Why they are silent? Is it the fear of fear of ridicule or abuse?

Noel, as I said, feel free to challenge; the use of 'MOB' is what I find the most childish given the joy and venom its users seem to get out of throwing it in as often as possible. If you don't challenge, my crystal ball will never tell me you are out there...

I've already stated that I believe your use of Gollum is childish. What more do you want me to say to "challenge" it?

But, as my old man often reminds me, even Catterick lost the plot eventually!

The Blue Union debate on here descended into farce because the communications officer of The Blue Union refused to engage with those asking questions and acted with arrogance by treating anyone who didn't agree with him with contempt. That's not the essence of debate and the whole thread was cheapened because of it. The BU consider themselves a quasi-political group (albeit with a narrow/specialist purview) and claim to represent groups of fans. If that is so they should expect to be questioned/criticised as well as agreed with/praised.

Michael, Lyndon I wouldn't be too hard on yourselves. I would imagine that the majority of debates on the majority of sites will descend at least the BU one had the excuse of being late at night and over a contentious issue.

There is a big kid in all of us......pfnnarr pfnarr, I said "in us" etc etc

If you had called me a Moysie whatever type thing five years ago I would not have argued the point. Alas I believe he has lost a lot of my respect because of the way he treats the fans, by constantly picking his favourites. That said, his favourites have lost the bit of ability they once had, so now he has a big choice. Find new favourites or fuck off! I think life will go on after he goes, but nobody can predict the future accurately enough to know where we will be.

All that said, a new chapter will have to begin sooner or later and we will all still be here long after DM and BK. I do not hate either and find it hard to understand why some do, but that is their choice. The variety of opinion on this site is what makes it stand out. People like you and me, with totally different ideas, but one aim.

Long may it continue. I will keep an eye out for some more of your long posts and maybe I will make some comments!! Thanks, Dean