I assumed any confusion around state aid would relate to Finch Farm. In particular how Everton are getting a reduced rent from the deal.

Thanks for the acknowledgement Michael, as far as I can make out the agenda of the General Meeting is a pre-agreed series of questions. I do genuinely wonder regarding the new Tax Haven status agreement between the former dependencies, the BVI were certainly represented at the meeting with David Cameron and in agreement of what will come to light or whether the murky offshore entities will simply relocate before they are unmasked. I would love to be at the meeting but have never been abe to secure a share as they seldom come up for sale and when they do quickly change hands including the recent bunch BK himself purchased.

Has there been any word at all about proxies?

(Or did I just use a dirty word?!?!)

I thought they would be allowed providing the club was notified in time as to who would be representing the absent shareholder. I'm not sure but I think the deadline was the Monday prior to the meeting. I will try to find out where I read that or if I mis-read it.

Michael from the notes on EFC OS.

1. A member entitled to attend and vote at the above meeting convened may appoint one or more proxies to exercise any of his/her rights to attend, speak and vote at that meeting on his/her behalf. If a member appoints more than one proxy, each proxy must be entitled to exercise the rights attached to different shares. A proxy need not be a member of the Company.

2. A proxy may only be appointed using the procedures set out in these notes. To appoint a proxy a member must complete, sign and date a proxy form and deposit it at the registered office of the Company by 6.00pm on Monday 24 June 2013. Any power of attorney or any other authority under which the proxy form is signed (or a duly certified copy of such power or authority) must be enclosed with the proxy form.

3. In order to revoke a proxy appointment, a member must sign and date a notice clearly stating his intention to revoke his proxy appointment and deposit it at the registered office of the Company by 6.00pm on Tuesday 25 June 2013.

Apologies in advance, as I've not seen the agenda, but can't an EGM agenda (as opposed to an AGM's) have an "any other business" item?

Recently I saw a clip of Alan Partridge questioning Yvonne Boyd, a character (brilliantly played by Rebecca Front) who is a piss-take of right-place, right-time, thick is shite, unwearable fashions 'designer' Vivienne Westwood.

On the show, he can't get anything close to sense out of her and at one point, getting fed up, before asking his next question,, says "Now keeping in mind Pete and Bernie's philosophical steakhouse is CLOSED, what do you think of..."

She immediately comes back with a load of floaty, ethereal, 'philosophical' bollocks, which leaves him throwing down his clipboard and saying "I give up".

I'm reminded of this reading this thread because I know, given our boards innate ability to spin/bullshit/deflect, It would be great if all questions began..

"Given that Bill and Bob's spoofing, lying and bullshitting steakhouse is CLOSED, how much money...."

This website from ICIJ exposes who uses off-shore tax havens.

It was only used by investigative journo's (definitely not the Liverpool Echo!) but now the public are allowed access. It is truly astonishing.

http://www.icij.org/offshore/who-uses-offshore-world

Watch the video at the bottom of the page ;

http://www.icij.org/offshore/icij-releases-offshore-leaks-database-revealing-names-behind-secret-companies-trusts

Michael I am sure before a deal is concluded by the British Government with any British protectorates the people who want their affairs secret will have moved their money long before any law comes into play.

Regarding the EGM I imagine it will be run similar to Arsenals AGMs, they will only allow written questions that have to be submitted 2 weeks before the meeting and no follow up questions are allowed. So they work out their response a week in advance and you are not allowed to ask a subsequent question. I am afraid the idea of football clubs being open and transparent have long been forgotten. So I doubt that we will get the answers we want from this meeting.

Kevin (332) - The video, incredible stuff.

Or to be more specific, incredibly depressing stuff.

It made me think, it really seems to be the case in so many aspects of life, that whatever moral compass was there, has simply vanished.

A person or company who makes (for example) £50m a year, no longer seems to say 'Yippee! I've made a load of dough and kept a hundred people employed!'.

Instead it's "If I could find a bent tax-loophole and lay 25 people off, I could make £65m".

Our politicians, almost to a man, fiddled their taxes and when they were caught, they gave it the old "Oh...I wasn't sure...I thought I was allowed....well, obviously I'll stop now since you've pointed out my 'mistake".

(imo not only should they have all been banged-up for their CRIME, but they should have been given a year on top for their insult-to-our-intelligence 'explanations').

The horrible truth (and it IS horrible!) is that those who 'run' this planet are, without doubt, 'at it'.

Not only that, they've figured out ways to make their larceny 'legal'.

And I guarantee (whatever weasel-words they use) THEY won't be changing a thing - any change is down to...us.

History shows that in situations like the one we (the world) find ourselves in right now, change must be forced.

If we continue to react by simply tutting, raising our eyes and saying "bankers/politicians/companies - what are they like eh?" it will continue unchecked.

Finally, we should also remember the knock-on effect of all this to society in general.

Estates running wild with drug-dealers and savages, places where no fucker has ever done a day's tap, guns, knives, easy money, cash on the hip and truckload of Russian ciggies.

"Yeah but what has that got to do...".

Every-fucking-thing!

If your politicians, bankers and CEOs are all on the fiddle and as dishonest as fuck (to use a legal term) and enjoying the good life, why not 'get on it' yourself (as the young'uns might say.. before downing a bottle of pale-blue WKD in a oner).

It's funny, one or two posters on TW are from time-to-time accused of being cynical

Occasionally I have been and it's not something I disagree with.

But then I read about the tax avoiding antics and business practices of our own Philip Green and by comparison, I am a naive, wide-eyed, smiling new-born baby

Eugene - Southampton, Fulham & West Ham are all using Vibrac as well. Look at the owners of these clubs, and things start to click into place. This bit below is quite interesting ;

"Al Fayed's problems would appear to have been resolved in the short-term thanks to a loan brokered between the south London club and the little-known Vibrac Corporation, which is based in the British Virgin Islands.

But the details of the draconian financial arrangement brokered on 16 April and uncovered by SportsDirect News, are likely to raise eyebrows among supporters, not least because:

Fulham have been forced to take out a mortgage on all the properties the club owns, including Craven Cottage.

Vibrac Corporation have first call on the £50m Fulham will receive next season from the Premier League's broadcasting deals.

In the event that Fulham default on a repayment, Vibrac Corporation have the right to appoint a receiver "without notice".

Officials from the lender have been granted "free access. to inspect and take copies of, and extracts from, the books, accounts and financial records" of the club.

Nobody was available to comment on the arrangement when SportsDirect News contacted the club.

But a well-placed senior source, who worked at Fulham for several years and was a trusted confidante of al Fayed, revealed: "You don't take out these kind of deals if everything is fine and dandy.

"These types of lenders are for emergencies only. You usually use them when all other options, such as your bankers, have been explored and declined."

Fulham have done nothing wrong in choosing to borrow such a large amount from Vibrac Corporation, which is based in Tortola, capital of the Virgin Islands. In recent seasons, the likes of West Ham United, Southampton and Everton have all been forced to call on its services.

Yet companies like Vibrac Corporation are notorious for the veils of secrecy they operate under and the rates of interest they charge, which are far higher than those offered by respected high street lenders.

Although transparency has improved in recent years, government bodies like Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs still experience major difficulties in identifying the ultimate ownership and beneficiaries of these types of organisations.

The arrangement raises more questions than answers and puts the £15m deal brokered last month between Queens Park Rangers and the Hong Kong branch of Barclays Bank into perspective.

"Everyone knows that going to the Far East for some cash is unusual," added the Fulham insider. "So what are they going to think about this arrangement?"

Someone is raking it in. Are we supposed to believe these deals are done for the good of the club's concerned?

Any business carried out in the BVI has something to hide. The question is, who is hiding behind Vibrac?

Kevin (350) - It really sounds like a bigger version of Wonga.

Now I'll be honest, I know NOTHING about finance and trying read and take in information on the subject makes my brain numb.

Consequently my questions on the subject tend to be a little simplistic.

That said, I'm curious to know how if (like us) you have no assets (other than players who you can't force to be sold) how/why do companies loan money to us?

Is the security simply Sky and admission money?

Yes Eugene, the Vibrac loan is secured against TV money. The arrangement fee & interest combined (around £2.5M for one season) would have been enough to secure a deposit for Finch Farm.

"In effect the Everton loan was an advance on future income, and secured against either cash generated from another campaign in the Premier League or, in a worst case scenario, the bumper parachute payments offered in the event of relegation."

I thought the £30m Prudential loan was secured against the Sky money and season ticket sales until it's paid off in 2027. Does anyone know what this was actually spent on?

God knows what the VIBRAC loan is secured against. Is it Bovril, tea and pie sales or on the pitch assets which is why the higher rate of interest is charged?

It makes you wonder doesn't it? What if the owners of the lenders are the same people that run the broadcasting companies or even worse belong to owners of other football clubs? What a farce it could be and how better to maintain the status quo at the top end of the PL.

For Everton to belong to a group of clubs such as Fulham, Southampton and West Ham says it all for me, we have tumbled right down the pecking order and are in danger of falling further down the list. At least Southampton have a new stadium and West Ham will soon have one. So that leaves us on a par with Fulham. Fulham ffs a lovely family club but they hardly merit a mention in the list of famous clubs in England.

I fear it is already too late to rescue the club from the clutches of the administrators and it will only take a few errors of judgment in the transfer market to bring the club to a crashing end. Alarmist yes, but then again I become more alarmed by each new revelation that is attached to Everton FC and those that are in charge.

I would prefer it if we had alcoholic's in charge of club matters, at least with that disease there is a limit to the amount you can spend, but as a gambler there is no limit as long as you can keep borrowing the funds which can cause untold damage as you chase one bad bet after another.

If those that believe that our owners have been good for Everton, please reconsider your stance because I can't see what they are doing or have done that has enhanced Everton FC in any way.

We are Everton Football Club in name only and if the owners could mortgage that or sell it to raise cash they would do so without a moments hesitation, they are clowns minus the funny hair and ovresize shoes, but I'm not sure if they have red-noses.

Peter#373, This was from the Guardian in 2008:

While David Moyes demands assurances that his club have the means to match his ambition, Everton have added two more mortgages to their balance sheet. The loans, both struck with the boutique Edinburgh bank Adam & Company, are in addition to money borrowed from Barclays last year against future television income.

The first Adam & Co loan was drawn last October and the second last month, meaning that Everton now have a total of 12 outstanding loans against their property and assets. Most significant among them is a £30m loan from the Prudential which will cost £68m to repay over a 25-year term and "will be repaid in a securitisation agreement serviced by future season-ticket sales and match-day ticket sales".

12 mortgages!! WTF. Really, really hate to say this but is the writing on the wall?

Peter, that's why Moyes has been paralysed in the transfer market for the past 11 years and Martinez will be expected to follow the same modus operandi going forward. The next sacrificial lamb will be Fellaini; with interest payments on all these loans, player trading is the only viable option left open.

Debt is fine Peter, as long as it's 'manageable'

The trouble we find ourselves in is down to the refusal of Directors to guarantee any of this debt - hence the last resort of short-term loans at ridiculous rates of interest, and LCC having to bail us out with Finch Farm.

We are now considered as 'high risk' by all the major credit agencies, which is not a good place to be. I imagine most of the new T.V. money will be put aside for the rainy days ahead.

If Kenwright and the rest of them were considered as foreign investors, they would have been run out of Goodison years ago. The fact he is a blue has given him carte blanche to run the club into the ground, and that's our fault I suppose.

It's difficult to look beyond our League position, as we all have our own problems, but I would like all future generations of blues to witness this great club in the top division, and winning trophies. But there's no doubt these feckers have put us in an extremely precarious position financially.

I would like to just go to the game and not even be discussing these people, but it just feels wrong to ignore what is going on, it feels like you are complicit if you turn a blind eye.

Well it's case of borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.

But as this is Everton, no doubt it's not just Paul with his hand out.

There'll be Aaron.

And Abbey.

And Abdul.

And Abe.

Abel.

Abelard.

Abner.

Alan.

Alex.

Abraham.

Arthur.....

Come to think of it, by the time Zorro's been weighed in, Paul's got NO fucking chance!

So, to sum up: It's all a house of cards waiting for the slightest breeze. This is us then... Leeds in slow motion.

Kev Tully, thanks for all the digging. That seems to be around a rate of 8% on the Prudential Loan using basic calculators. Any idea what the going rate is for always in the red businesses such as football clubs?

All the data you have uncovered is very interesting, but I don't know what to make of it, as I have nothing to measure it against. How does it measure up compared to our peers?

And the Vibrac connections with other clubs is also very eye opening. Does this mean there is a global conspiracy with regards to the funding of football clubs or....that the Vibrac loan is a typical funding mechanism and nothing concerning at all? You are quite right in saying that the money could have been used to secure Finch Farm, what did the club actually spend the Vibrac money on? Does anybody know?

Dan Brierley
Your like Paul Landon without a brain

Mark Frere, very witty. But ultimately you seem to be yet another poster unable to actually contribute to a discussion, and just find enjoyment in criticising others who challenge and ask questions, while you lap up everything fed to you.

Dan

The original Vibrac loan was, as I understand it, a working capital loan.

Cash to keep the wolf from the door.

As we had none.

Well Dan, there is one glaring difference between those other three clubs mentioned and us.

All the owners have put millions into these clubs beyond their initial purchase price.

Al-Fayed alone has lent Fulham a staggering £187m in interest free loans.

You can look at these Vibrac loans in two ways - a conspiracy to skim funds or a last resort of lending, when all mainstream lenders refuse to give credit.

I doubt we would ever find the truth, but that link above gives you an idea why companies use the BVI in the first place, then you can make your own mind up from there.

Dan, I was more then willing to have a discussion the other night about how our beloved club was going to be sold, you were tired of talking about it, remember? You wouldn't discuss with Gavin either, so don't talk to me about contributing to discussions.

Eugene

A close friend of mine is a real financial whizz and swears strongly against paying your bills based solely on alphabetical order. He's the one who helped me out of a terrible bind I got myself into with Zurich Insurance. His advice seemed sound enough but in the end I opted to fix things my way and switched to Admiral.

Mark, as I have said many times myself and Gavin have discussed the selling issue a thousands times, going back years. You can just do a search if you wish.

Kev, surely the last resort is selling playing staff and reducing the wage bill which accounts for 80% of turnover. Whilst I don't agree that high interest financing is the way forward, thank fuck we did that as opposed to selling Fellaini a year or two ago when his stock was £5-10 million lower. It is possibly time for us to consider a 'mass cull' to get us back on financial track and more appealing to buyers. But ultimately I guess Martinez will not like the sound of that one bit.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the likes of Fulham and Villa now that their owners seem to have 'given up' pumping money into them. Will they expect their loans back before selling?

Don't forget Dan, all these mortgages, loans etc have been compounded by ridiculously poor commercial deals which still have years to run.

We were grasping to find any partners such as kitbag, and that has set us back years compared to our competitors. Add to that the fact that Goodison Park needs major work to add even a few corporate boxes and the picture becomes even more dire.

It wouldn't be so bad if there was any light at the end of the tunnel, such a new kit deals, redeveloped stadiums etc... but we are going backwards compared to our peers. Liverpool's commercial deals amount to more than our entire turnover next season.

Phil (478) - "A close friend of mine is a real financial whizz and swears strongly against paying your bills based solely on alphabetical order"

The (genius) country singer Hank Williams Sr had a good system.

Anyone who bugged him for payment would receive a letter informing them..

"Every month I take all my bills and put them in a pile, I then throw the pile in the air and try to catch one of them in my hat. Whichever one lands in the hat, that's the one that gets paid. If you continue to give me your shit, you're not going in the pile".

To be honest Kev, I wont go into detail on my admittedly bitter view on what might have been had our title winning team of 87' gone into Europe the following season, and where we might be now.

What is interesting about Liverpool was that they were literally on the brink of administration when Henry came in to the save them. Would we have a white knight to save us if a similar situation happened, or would all the billionaires stand by and watch us fall into obscurity? It's not a gamble I would want to take though, even if there is a very small chance of finding a decent new owner.

Dan would you have ever have contemplated Glasgow Rangers or Hearts going belly up in your lifetime, as well as Leeds and Portsmouth but maybe for different reasons.

If Everton FC as a business has to keep borrowing from future revenues including TV money and Season Ticket sales and has little in the way of other income, how is it possible to be anything other than pessimistic about the future of the club?

Add to this the growing clamour from our neighbours and others to have a different distribution of the TV money eg the teams that are shown most get a bigger share of the revenues. That would hit Everton like a torpedo and we would not recover. There is no Knight on a white horse coming to Everton's rescue and the sooner the people in charge realise that the better.

I don't believe that anyone at the club is guilty of taking money out of the club they are only guilty of the 21st Century curse of living beyond their means and the day of reckoning will eventually come.

Everton are no longer a club that is too big to fail, in fact we are probably more a club too small to succeed. Our neighbours probably are just about too big to fail, but even they are going to find the next few years problematic.

Liverpool were victims of a leveraged buyout, as were Man United. How close they were to administration is debatable though. Probably a lot less closer than we have been on several occasions over the years when key players or a piece of real estate was pawned off to keep the wolves from the door.

Judging by the astronomical rise in our other operating costs in recent years, have we been a victim of carpet baggers by stealth? Are we paying for the Directors debts incurred at the time of their takeover? Did the hike in these costs coincide with the collapse of DK?

Meanwhile, LFC will spend multiples of what we spend with ease. They already have under Brenda.... not bad for a team so close to administration.

As far as obscurity is concerned let's hope Martinez can feed the masses with a few scraps as well as Moyes could..... otherwise I've s feeling we'll taste real administration and real obscurity.

Dan #465 "All the data you have uncovered is very interesting, but I don't know what to make of it, as I have nothing to measure it against. How does it measure up compared to our peers?"

Why do you care what the financial position of our peers is? All we need to know is WE are in deep financial shit and what are the board going to do to get us out of it???

Just had a crazy thought. Is it possible that Bill has used his own shares to secure some of these loans? Which effectively means he can't sell what's not really his. Would other board members have done the same, which could go some way to explain the rumoured asking price.

Patrick, 384. Your comments about EFC going into administration are wide of the mark while we have player assets that can clear the debt in one swoop. EPL survival continues the cycle; if we went down and still had the assets then we may survive.

The board have gambled by breaking the wage structure of the players and once you do that the new ceiling of salaries becomes the norm yet the income streams don’t see the same increase – it's basic mathematics that they need to go cap in hand.

If we sold MF for £24 million and didn’t buy new players, we could wipe out some of these loans, added to this the extra £20 million for next season. if I ran EFC, this is exactly what I would do but I guess you would lose players like Baines too as a consequence and have the fans on your back far worse than it currently is.

The problem you have is the Chairman is a fan and a dreamer and wants us to sip at the top table so he holds on to this dream. I can guarantee you that BK Promotions Company wouldn’t work this way but this is football finance and they all have blinkers on.

Tom: LFC was a frustrated sale and the new owners got them at a bargain price; they spend far more because they generate far more than EFC... sadly they have a worldwide fan base. I watched EFC v Man City in Singapore last season and just 2 EFC fans in the main bar in the Quay side yet the second game on was LFC and they lost and every bar was full of locals in their horrible shirts.

EFC and teams out of the top 5/6 have no pull in these markets at all thus meaning we can't generate the extra income to bridge this gap unless at some point we take a haircut but the board will need to grow a big set of balls to do this, in normal business practise, this is done every day.

Alan. .... that makes it all the more reason to build on income streams by improving infrastructure and commercial activities. Which we haven't done at all. Over a long period this can be done in parallel to team development, and they have had over a decade and delivered nothing.

The Kings Dock would have provided the perfect catalyst but was squandered, which amounts to a dereliction of duty IMO...... at the very least a catastrophic failure. The pitiful sponsorship and retail deals also mean we are forever playing catch-up.

My reference to LFC was regarding Dan's "administration" remark. A few Blues seemed to be preoccupied with Liverpool's predicament at the time yet oblivious to our own, which is almost laughable considering ours has been shown to be far more pressing. Their global appeal means they can squander hundreds of millions and employ crap manager after crap manager and they will still turnover many times what we will. It's not a bottomless pit but compared to us it is. This club has had great opportunities to capitalise on LFC's relative mediocrity, but we haven't. At some point they might actually get their act together: build those new stands and get the right manager. Then we'll be well and truly left behind........ how costly will the Kings Dock and years of stagnation appear then?

They have turned the club into a one-trick pony and for the past decade that trick was Moyes. Now we haven't got him or any of the solid assets we once had. They have squandered the lot. We are now effectively running on empty. Although the Sky windfall will give them some breathing space and funds for the immediate future. Our only hope is that Martinez can build on Moyes's team and continue to improve them. If he doesn't we could fall apart quite dramatically as we are now underpinned by fresh air.

You could say that they gambled.... I'd say they've simply made too many mistakes and have jeopardised the whole future of the club. They chose to squander opportunities and live in hope when others were proactive and built on football's richest era. Very few have been funded by sugar daddies and very few had the luxury of our size of fanbase or stadium...... but the rest didn't stand still. They planned and built for their future. By comparison, our board have done nothing to add value and we are now seeing the result.

Alan #516,

You cannot rely on the value of current playing staff as a means of staving off administration.

They only need to let their contract reach the final 12 months and they are practically worthless.

Also, what about injury? Yakubu was bought for £11.25m and we recouped £1m when we sold him.

If that's your idea of a business model, you deserve a place on our Board.

Kevin (524) - Even if Alan was right (nb: and he's Wrongy McWrong from Wrongsville) if push came to shove and our playing staff WERE sold for top dollar and some kind of disaster averted, what's the team to play Utd on Saturday?

"In goal Spotty Smiggins 16. Left back, Fatty Thompson 15. Right back Wayne Zit 15...."

Those 'running' Everton are forever borrowing from Peter to pay Paul and unless a proper plan is implemented by people who know what they're doing, the whole thing will continue to feel like the last 10 seconds of a game of Jenga.

Eugene, wouldn't Fatty Thompson be better in the sweepers role? He hasn't got the pace he used to have you know!

Brenda would deffo play him in a 'false No 5' position.

Dan Brierley (#470):

So you're accusing a poster of 'lapping up everything that is fed to them'.

Sounds exactly like your good self during the DK farce.

Eugene;

I base my analysis on today's predicament. We have assets on the pitch: MF, LB and RB would all raise enough to bridge the debt posted on last year's accounts added to that the extra £20 million in TV money; its not a hard decision if it wasn’t a football club. Cutting overheads is standard practise and the advantage with losing employees is it hits the bottom line very fast.

The main squad will stay, added with some youth and maybe free transfers, it wouldn’t see us hit the top 6 but it would stabilise the business and allow us to plan for the future once we reach a self-sustainable level.

Tom, I agree with you totally on KD and every time I go there it’s the first thing I think of what if… But it’s gone so you have to move on and deal with what’s in front of you. As I said above, if we became prudent and made all buy into it, we could start using the capital gained to improve the infrastructure and in time add to the squad.

We have no rich benefactor and we spend more than we get in so it makes total sense to do what I suggest as long as we survive in the EPL. Based on what other teams have at the bottom we should easily do this if only a small percentage of the top players leave.

I agree with a lot of the posters that missing out on the Kings Dock and the poor deal with Kitbag have not helped our financial position at all. But, if we could have altered these decisions, I don't believe that we can sustain a realistic challenge for 4th place. We are light-years in spending terms behind the top teams and, though our previous manager did a terrific job, it was our lack of finance that stopped us competing at the very top.

Looking from the outside, it looks like our present board is made up of people who haven't got the wealth to move the club forward, and maybe those who do don't want too. How you remedy this problem, I don't know... but you can bet that Robert Earl will want a healthy return on his investment and Green the same if he is involved financially. So we end up with stagnation and are left with a sell-to-buy regime and at some point we will run out of quality players to sell... then the problems become untenable.

Alan,
The players you mention are our core squad. ..... what if the replacements prove a failure and have no sell on value and the team falls apart? ..... where does the next transfer funds come from? Isn't a system of ever-decreasing returns which if it fails, it fails catastrophically? How do we replace the ageing players who already have little or no sell on value? The whole thing is short sighted and one dimensional to me.

The club needs to speculate on several fronts or ultimstely they're only going to fall short against all the better equipped clubs. What about engaging with the council and development partners to add quality capacity, and to address some of the other stadium issues? Show some real ambition. ..... it is what's happened everywhere else and they are now reaping the benefits.

You're right the litany of cockups are in the past but they are still relevant and still influence the present and we should learn from them. ....... Perhaps most importantly though; the perpetrators of the same mistakes are still in charge prompting the eternal question of how can we break the cycle of short-termism to inject real impetus into our club with the same impotent leadership? I've seen NOTHING in the past 14yrs to suggest that they can deliver. ..... and that very much applies to the here and now too!

Alan #516, "Your comments about EFC going into administration are wide of the mark whilst we have player assets that can clear the debt in one swoop"

Our NETT liabilities are around £44 million, which means when we have sold ALL our assets (including players) then we still owe money.

Alan, the problem is we are losing money every year, even if we sold our best and cleared our debt, we would be back in debt at the end of the following season and the cycle starts again.

Tom is right unfortunately; there is no plan that we know of, nothing in evidence to get us out of this mess. Mistakes have been made but there is no reason to believe the present board will provide any solutions.

Brian, there are people on the board who could assist financially but they choose not too, so why are they there if they do not provide backing or commercial support / advice?

Waiting for a pay off perhaps?

Alan Williams (551) - "Eugene; I base my analysis on todays predicament, we have assets on the pitch MF, LB and RB would all raise enough to bridge the debt posted on last years accounts added to that the extra £20 million in TV money its not a hard decision if it wasn’t a football club".

Alan, with the best will in the world, I think this is wishful thinking of the highest order.

Firstly, football isn't like any other business out there.

'Assets' on a football pitch are very different from those off the pitch.

Assets like property for example.

Property can't break both legs.

Property can't suffer a loss in form.

Property can't say "My kids are happy in school here and my wife likes the area, I don't want to go".

Property can't run down a contract so it gets a better deal for itself.

(see our recently departed ginger asset).

Also, forgetting completely invented, tabloid space-filling invention, WHO has put in a bid for our assets?

An asset is only an asset if there's a buyer - if there isn't, IT isn't.

You say - "Cutting overheads is standard practise and the advantage with losing employees is it hits the bottom line very fast. The main squad will stay added with some youth and maybe free transfers, it wouldn’t see us hit the top 6 but it would stabilise the business and allow us to plan for the future once we reach a self sustainable level"

Well that all works in a nice neat 'two plus two equals four' type way.

But HOW stable would this 'stabilized' business be?

The debt STILL hasn't been paid and now we have a team that features a load of players nobody else wants.

I mentioned Jenga before - do you know how it works?

I'll try to explain.

So, you sell your best players.

You pay some debt off (no wobble yet)

Moral suffers because our best players have gone (slight wobble).

Because moral suffers, performance suffers (slightly bigger wobble)

Because performance suffers, you find yourself in the bottom half of the PL (bigger wobble)

Attendances suffer (wobble wobble)

So revenue suffers (WOBBLE!!)

Inexperience, kids, dead average players means possible relegation battle (WOBBLE!!!!)

At this point.... it all comes tumbling down.

And when it does, you discover you're up a certain creek without a certain propulsion implement.

Not only that, you don't have an asset to your name.

It is imo the shortest of short-term thinking and exactly the kind that has got us into financial state we're in right now (ie: fucked)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that we made a £9M pound loss after profit on player trading of £23M. So basically, if we sell Fellaini we'll make a £9M loss again. Also, what happens to these losses? Do they just go away, and we get to have another go?

Brian (556) "Robert Earl will want a healthy return on his investment".

Given the BVI and VIBRAC Corporation connections, there are some who have speculated that it would not take a rocket scientist to work out why Rockie Balboa is an Evertonian.

The Board will be praying Fellaini is sold to provide funds for the new manager. As we speak, they will be trimming his hair and clipping his toenails like a prize poodle before Crufts to generate more interest.

They know it's the only way they can give Martinez any sort of a kitty for transfers. I imagine a large percentage of the new TV money will be going to pay some loan / mortgage / interest / bar bill etc....

Peter, any losses will be added to the £44M worth of liabilities the books are already showing.

Eric 504, you are totally right! Let's reset our wage cap to £30k a week for the players. Then we will pay off the debt in no time, and be raking in cash every month. Who cares what the other teams offer? It makes no difference to us, eh?

Alan, a lot of the debt the club signed up to is at swingeing rates and conditions predominantly without early conclusion capability. The old Bear Stearns loan against Season Ticket sales all those years ago, now held by JP Morgan, has no early repayment capability so the term has to be paid for the duration agreed to. Add the concept of liquidising your only remaining assets in the playing staff and your business isn't really capable of operating anymore.

Great idea in the event of a foreclosure and winding up; otherwise... plain suicidal.

Dan, knowing the financial sh!t that other teams are in, and the reasons for it will not help us get out of the sh!t.

Rather you and our board should look at what other teams have done to improve their financial health, like invest money in infrastructure, make sound commercial deals, get new owners etc.

Gavin, is it possible the lenders would re-consider the terms of their loans if they thought the club was in big trouble?

So basically you want the best possible playing squad, owners to invest their own wealth, new stadia and the best merchandise deal around, welcome to the world of the fickle football fan, maybe we should get Ridsdale as CEO? Well all your post just confirm how difficult it is to run EFC and keep everybody happy. So many on this site take the worst possible scenario on every point, I said sell three players not the whole squad along with the extra cash this year adds to between £50/60 million. If some of the debt doesn’t have early payment clauses (I would be surprised if it didn’t) then treat it as a longer term debt and use the extra cash for example to modernise each stand. Christine work out the sums wages would reduce by £7.8 million per year as a guess and by paying off certain debt that allows us an extra £3/4 million in none interest payment along with the extra £20 million year on year over three years I’m sure Tom could easily invest that in to GP modernisation? I’m not saying this is the best option but I’m offering a route out of our predicament by cutting our cloth accordingly and getting the fans to invest time in a re-build programme so all the cards are on the table, it would have to be a transparent approach and would year on year improve EFC the business and possibly give us some cash flow to allow long term business plans as apposed to short term deals, this isn’t fact this is my opinion on how I would try and get us out of the Status Quo. What about telling us what your ideas are to get out of this predicament, based on a real situation and real P&L?

Alan #618, I understand your line of argument - I think most do.
However we are in this position due to the financial management of the Board who have seen fit to take out high cost borrowings whilst waiting for their payday. Look up what you can about the net worth of our two original TBH members - neither was particularly wealthy (in football terms) when they bought the club, this has been a carpet bagging exercise from the get go.

Matchday revenue is constrained by the stadium, which is a long-term issue to address. However other clubs are powering ahead with commercial deals, the variety and value of which have come about purely because of the expansion of the overseas TV deal in the last 5 years. We still bump along near the bottom as we've taken poor long-term decisions that offered short-term revenue relief. Again, a Board decision.

So if they were to follow the "strategy" as you outline it, are you sure they'd be able to deliver it?

I'd like to see one question at the EGM. Rhetorical, as it'd never be allowed.
"Since the current board came to power, exactly how much money has Everton FC paid in interest and other finance charges".

I bet the answer would go a long way to explaining those pesky "Other Operating Costs".

'Make sound commercial deals'

Any other pearls of wisdom to share with us Eric? I am surprised you are not a CEO yourself with such revolutionary business ideas.

Matt Traynor, is interest not a line item in the accounts under cash flow?

Dan #639, someone more qualified than me will answer, but I thought it related only to monies with the bank. We do have an overdraft (not a particularly efficient way of borrowing) but the other borrowings most definitely won't have interest displayed due to their commercial nature. That and it'd probably cause a few heart attacks.

As ever, I stand to be corrected.

The club have paid £20,869,000 interest in the last five years.

Aye, Kevin - but who have they paid it to?

I may be the world`s biggest pessimist (the missus has been telling me so for 35 years!) but I really do think Everton were fucked for all time when Kenwright screwed up on King`s Dock.

I don`t think there has ever been or will ever be any `second chance` and as nobody will ever bale him out of the mess he`s created, we`re on the slow path to oblivion.

[That`s what six weeks listening to ex-pats moaning in Cyprus does for your thinking!]

Phil #681, the King's Waterfront development really was the chance. I worked with someone who was a Project Director on it for one of the contractors, and the business case was stunning, partly due to the relatively low cost to Everton (several public subsidies), partly due to other revenue streams. 5-6 years later, and then to be faced with Destination Kirkby. It's wrong to compare, but the business case the club put out was fundamentally flawed. The £6m extra revenue per annum was at the top end of a stretched-optimistic case.

Had they delivered KD, I'm pretty sure they'd have sold the club soon after work started. Although that kind of infrastructure would attract the Sovereign Wealth Funds, so not to everyone's cup of tea. Wonder if there was any covenant on any sale due to the substantial public money component?

Apologies re; Interest over the last 5 years.

The club is split into three entities:–

1. Everton Football Club
2. Everton Investments
3. Goodison Park Stadium Ltd.

Over the past 5 years, they have been charged over £35M in interest charges between them.

Alan #618 "I said sell three players not the whole squad along with the extra cash this year adds to between £50/60 million." You should stick to Fantasy Football Manager, it's the only place where Everton are likely to have that sort of money.

Dan #626, I could do a better job of it at Everton than our current CEO and board.

Eric, MF £24M, LB £10/15M. RB £5/7M — Total £39/46M plus the club will receive an extra £20M from TV next season — is that so hard for you to understand? My values are real not silly so maybe you should try and be constructive as opposed to being obtuse.

Besides the regret and anger every time Kings Dock is mentioned, one phrase in the above posts got to me: "invest time in a re-build programme".

It feels like Everton have been in a re-build programme for most of my adult life.

Peter #614 if a creditor gets wind you are in trouble they would be silly not to call in the debt, as we have yet to default they are probably keeping quiet whilst raking a handsome profit. A win win for them and lose lose for the club.

Gavin, like if season ticket sales are down by double digit percent you mean?

Kevin Tully, thanks for your inputs to this discussion even if you last one appears to have saved the club £5 million in one swoop.

This subject, the ownership/operating costs were subject of a long and detailed thread called "Who owns Goodison Park?" some months ago.

I reiterate my call that it is a subject so close to the hearts and minds of many, not least contributors to this thread, that it ought to remain open on an ongoing basis.

My understanding is that it is possible for buyers to buy a club using a loan which, once control is established, can be repaid from the operations of the club. That, simply means from the income the club gets, including from ticket sales from them who go. So, in a nutshell, the fans buy the club for the owners. The income from the tickets is declared but, maybe (and I do not know) the borrowing costs are absorbed by the "other operating expenses"...

Top of it is, I guess we all want the best for Everrton and while we do not compete at the very highest level actually, my heart at least says I do NEED to know why.

So, as controller of my shareholding (one) I am arranging for my nominee to transfer the share back into my name ready to go next week.

Lastly, is anyone else going? And do they fancy meeting up for a beer before the event?

Thanks for reading,

Ian I don't suppose you will come away with many answers to the burning questions, but you never know at least it will be a chance to see the people who run our club unless of course they send proxy attendees - is that possible for the Chariman et al?

Alan #741, around £90M in liabilities and running at a loss of around £20M a year.

Maybe you should try being more realistic and stop living in cloud cookoo land?

Eric, your 'around £20 million a year' was actually £9.1 million loss last season. And your 'around £90 million liabilities', is actually £84.5 million.

I was going to say you would not make a good accountant, but actually some businesses would love round ups like that!!

State Aid for Everton - perish the thought. No way could it ever be described as City getting a free stadium after the Commonwealth Games or West Ham after the Olympics as State Aid.

Are Cushman and Wakefield Reds - or just selective use of facts?

Couldn't we register ourselves as a charity ?

Run out before kick off to 'Drive' by the Cars ?

Explain to potential donators the years of misery and hopelessness we have suffered ?

That some Everton fans have to walk for miles every day to drink ... at the nearest pub.

Get some wannabe celeb to report on the squalid sanitary conditions in the toilets at Goodison whilst holding back the tears caused by the intensity of the urine smell ?

cue song ' Who's gonna tell you when ....'

Michael #159 I'm not sure whether you're being serious or talking the mick but I don't think people are asking for Everton or Evertonians to be treated as a special case. I think it's just a case of trying to work out how we dig ourselves out of the hole our True Blue chairman has got us into.

In case you hadn't noticed we have been falling behind our historical rivals for some time and we are beginning to see the gap between us and some 'smaller' clubs close as well, it is only a matter of time before we become a Wolves or Sheffield Wednesday IF the board and or fans decide to let things continue on the current path.

Patrick@164 - trying to bring some humour into the debate.

For the record, I agree 100% with your comments.

Is it the German model where some clubs are owned by the fans ?

I believe that 's what needs to happen with us as the 'Peoples Club'.

There was talk of a Trust organisation on here but it seem to have gone quiet.

We all know the problems but writing letters/sending emails to the club/ posting on TW might get it off our chest but that's about all.

Michael I did think you were being humorous in your original post but sometimes it is difficult to pick it up on these threads. I agree with you that something has to be done but no matter how much we protest the future doesn't lie with us, unless of course we deprive ourselves of watching the team and starve the club of much needed funds.

We have I'm afraid been stitched up good and proper and trying to get the owners to alter course is a difficult task and will take a large groundswell of opinion to change their attitude, which will take time. Although there are signs that a larger proportion of people are starting to ask the right questions and maybe if it continues to grow then with luck something will be done.

Dan #108, that £9 million loss was after sales of assets, i.e. players.

When we've sold all our assets to cover the losses who's going to take to the field?

Maybe the players could be interested in investing in Everton's assets. Although any investments are private matters, it would appear they do seem to like a spot of investment as top rate tax payers.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jun/20/construction-scheme-tax-footballers?CMP=twt_gu

I used to work for a big Bank. Each year just before pay negotiations took place, they sent us a booklet outlining how great they were and how great the "package" was. Almost made you feel like working for free for them.

I today's post came a shiny new card for Everton shareholder including a customer number, the number of a shareholder liaison officer, and a little brochure detailing discounts on season tickets, three day priority for match tickets, 10% discount on on-line shopping and so on.

Just wondered why it arrived this of all weeks...

Surely not Ian they wouldn't would they?

All that for one poxy share, Ian! Just think what you might get for £23M worth of them. Free shopping in BHS for starters?

Doddy, I am sure you must have read my previous posts, as the share I "control" is not in my name, displaying the difference between 'poxy' and, in the case of Wednesday, 'proxy'.

So, am I on my own or is there anyone else who is on the ToffeeWeb going?

I have lost the instructions about where and when, amazingly, I can find no reference on the OS.

I hope this helps Ian - I would attend but I don't have a share to my name.

NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN, that, pursuant to a Requisition made in accordance with the provisions of section 303 Companies Act 2006 and received by the Company on 17 May 2013, a general meeting of the above named Company will be held at the Liverpool Philharmonic Hall, Hope Street, Liverpool L1 9BP on Wednesday 26 June 2013 at 6:00pm to consider the matters raised in the said Requisition namely: