Shouldn't Coleman, Duffy, Gueye, Garbutt, and Bidwell all be on that list as well? Not saying they will (any of them) become the next Everton star but they are developing and deserve to be on the list. Weather they make the grade or are sold off for a profit, they serve a purpose. Such is the nature of the beast.

We survived with such a small squad in about 10 years...
Remember that we finished 4th with 16 or 17 squad players for the whole season....

Yes ! Jimmy-Mr state the obvious-Soerheim

Our wage bill however, is very much the opposite of too small, there lies the problem and the solution to the small squad problem. There's only so many slices you can cut of a small loaf.

Thats my take Derek... we can afford to have a high quality and decent quantity number squad. So we make sure we have about 15 ready for the 1st team and some youngsters comin through.

Until we have a richer club, I think it is the right way to go. Rather have the ability to do very well if we don't have injuries than hope for nothing but midtable with plenty to choose from.

We have enough players; the question is how good are some of the younger ones such as Barkley, Gueye etc? We might get to see some of them tomorrow night.

Our first team is actually quite old with the vast majority 26 or over and would be nice to see some of the younger players establish themselves as reliable first teamers or else we may have alot of replacing to do in the not too distant future.

For this season, I think we need another central midfielder to cover Gibson and possibly another striker to cover Jelavic though I think Mirallas and Naismith could both play there if needed although they lack the physical presence Moyes likes in his lone striker.

Just look at the results! Our youngsters get stuffed regularly and the 5-1 defeat versus West Ham had Barkley, Duffy and Vellios all playing!!!!!!!

Actually Liverpool are producing much better youngsters than we are. Sterling, Spearing and Kelly have all come through pretty well recently.

Our batch have not 'forced' their way into the first team reckoning at all. Only Rodwell has had first team outings and now he is away. Vaughan and Anichebe have done nothing either. We are still buying other clubs' youngsters so obviously ours are not up to it.

I don't think the situation is that chronic at all.

The players we let go this season have been fringe players or youth players that didn't look like they'd make it. That's part of the youth system game as well you know, you can't just keep all the players that come through.

Looking at who's gone this year:
Yobo - on the books, but he wasn't even at the club for last 2 years
Silva - Likewise, was on loan for most of time
Cahill - A club legend, but definitely in decline at the top level.
Jose Baxter - Youth prospect who just didn't seem quite good enough to step up.
Jack Rodwell - The only genuine argument for 'weakening' our squad or future prospects was selling on Jack, but to be honest the jury is still out on whether he can be a valuable premier league regular and we needed the money which has (so far) been reinvested wisely.

McFadden - All due respect, but he's not good enough for the club anymore.
Drenthe and Straq - Loanees that played a part and if we could only combine Drenthe's skill with Straq's work ethic we'd have had one hell of a player. Sadly Drenthe was a waster and Straq willing but not quite good enough.
In terms of who's come in:
Pienaar > absolute class (although admittedly we had him on loan)
Naismith > Added an extra zest and some options up front, if he can stay fit he's going to have a big impact.
Mirallas > Early to say, but the lad has skill and finishing instinct

Ben McLaughlin - As if in answer to you 'where's the youth?' question, we have a new defensive prospect to add to the likes of Duffy, Garbutt, Bidwell, Hammar, Hope, Junior, McAlney who are trying to emulate Coleman, Gueye, Vellios, Berkley and Anichebe in pushing their way into the first team.

On top of this Moyes is clearly on the lookout for one or two more and I'd be surprised if we didn't clinch at least one more body before the end of the week.

I just don't feel comfortable with the young uns being in Stubbs' hands.

Moyes is on it Jimmy, chill with the still fella. This summer has seen a massive step forward in terms of squad quality, and for a net spend of bugger all once again. Until Billy wins the Eurolotto this is as much as we can wish for.

There will defo be at least one more to come in before Friday, even if just on loan.

Isn't it fantastic to see it coming together than falling apart? I went to the United game, first for a while because of the distance involved but the atmosphere was fantastic and there was a real buzz around the old joint. The performance was staggering compared to what I was used to seeing and it seems like at Villa too? It's terrible now because my previous emotion was always alternating between despair at what they were serving up and hope for what might be. Now it's just worry over what could go wrong. It's probably not too important that we have top class back up teams such as the reserves but it's critical that we have back up in key positions so we can give our top players a break and back them up on suspensions. I can see Fellaini having to cope with a few suspensions but that is just an occupational hazard when you play like him. I can't quite figure out a name for his style but there aren't many like him.

I did a post ages ago, which I thought put this one to bed. But I forgot where it was, hopefully Michael can find it again.

So we have 2 senior goalkeepers in Howard and Mucha

We have Neville, Hibbert, Duffy, Jagielka, Distin, Baines, Heitinga, so 7 senior defenders. Coleman could be added to that list, as well as people who might step up like Bidwell and Garbutt.

We have Coleman, Naismith, Gibson, Fellaini, Mirallas, Pienaar, Osman, Gueye, Barkley, so 8 senior midfielders. You could add Junior in there as well as Neville and Heitinga who may also play there.

Up front we have Anichebe, Vellios and Jelavic, so 3 strikers as well as maybe putting McAleny in there as well. Naismith, Mirallas and Gueye can also play up front too.

So we have a squad of 20, possibly 21/22, which isn't too bad. We could do with a couple more squad players, which Moyes said himself, but I think we are in not too bad of shape.

I remember Laudrup saying 22/23 is the perfect number of the squad and I think he knows quite a bit about football.

So to sum up, we're in a good shape but a couple of players short. People and the media think we have such a small squad because we have a freakishly number of high injuries. Don't believe the media!!!

Loans are not the cheap option that many believe they are, unless they are the bargain basement type like the Argie 2nd league top scorer, or a trouble maker like "Ricky" from last season. Liverpool have taken Sahin for a year. They are "only" paying £85k a week of his wages, but are also paying £5m in a loan fee. So if you want a quality loanee, you're going to pay for it. I can't see Moyes taking on that kind of commitment, unless it was with a view to a permanent deal at the end if successful. And I don't think our finances allow such forward planning.

We do have a small squad, but thanks to the 7 subs rule, the bigger clubs are able to pad out their squads with established talent, whereas we need to use 2nd string, even youth players on occasion. To be honest I'd be happy to go back to 2 outfield subs, and a keeper.

Long term replacement of an aging squad is going to be a challenge. The good news is that the sale of Rodwell (and Arteta) has meant we have stopped the squad getting older so we are holding our own on the time clock front and improving the quality. Saha, Cahill, Arteta and Yakubu have all been replaced by younger men. Yobo was replaced some time ago.

The annual clear out of kids is ususal and they are simply naturally replaced by the next crop coming in behind them.

We have flexibility in our players and a small squad is easier to motivate than a large squad. We just need to make sure we are two or three deep in every position so that we are not vulnerable to any single point of failure.

I felt a few years ago that if Arteta or Yakubu were injured then we would struggle. They both were injured and we managed to keep things going surprisingly well (but no doubt we would have had a better chance of winnign the cup that year if they were fit).

We look much stronger up front than last season. Before Christmas we literally had no one of appropriate standard. After that we had only Jelavic. Now we have at least Jelavic and Mirallas - possibly Naismith and Anichebe.

Wide midfielders we have Pienaar, Osman, Naismith and Mirallas - with Coleman, Anichebe and Guyere (and Barkley) as back up

Attacking central mid we have Fellaini, Osman, Naismith, Pienaar and Mirallas (and Barkley?)

Definsive central mid we have Fellaini, Gibson and Neville (and at a push Junior)

Right back we have Hibbert and Neville

Left back we have Baines, Distin and a push Garbutt or Phill Neville

Centre backs we have Distin, Jags, Heitinga, Duffy - with Neville and Hibbert in emergencies

We have two experienced goalies.

This does not seem to bad. Of course given the overlaps if 3 key players are long term injured we may suddenly find mulitple cover options disappear. The one area where we do look short is the hole left by Rodwell as a defensive midfielder. These are not the most expensive players to pick up - a born again Lee Carsley would do fine. I would be disappointed if Moyes did not fill this gap before Friday with a loanee. Apart from that I think we are in fairly good shape for this season.

We need Champions League football to make the money to start handling the deeper issues.

Fellaini's style is "awkward" "gawky" "elbows and knees"

David "The good news is that the sale of Rodwell (and Arteta) has meant we have stopped the squad getting older"

Rodwell is only 21, him leaving has probably raised the average age of our squad!!

Jamie 740 - I said the same in another thread... not comfortable at all in fact. Stubbs was not known for his technical acumen.. not sure how good his tactical ability is.... I do worry.

Yes. Try counting the number of quality strikers in it....

I think our squad has been too small (quality wise) for about 15 years now.

Striker and wide right needed. I would be happy if we managed to do this, even as back up players

Moyes preference to sign utility players (those that can play in more than 1 position) means that we can get away with a smaller squad. Let us be honest, any team that have injuries/suspensions to players in a particular area are bound to suffer - even Man U are struggling with all the injuries to their central defenders. Where I do think Moyes needs to do better is in having faith in the youngsters - he needs to blood in the likes of Barkley, Garbutt, Hope, Bidwell, Junior, etc as part of his squad rotation policy and not wait until injuries/suspensions kick in.

Ajay, he can only blood in the youngster if the regulars aren't fit are are in a bad run of form (unless you are called Cahill and Saha....oh look problem solved)

Jimmy, your posts are always funny. Thanks.

If only we had kept hold of Drenthe, he would have been the answer!!!

´We will struggle like never before if we hit a injury spell... This is always the case every year for the last 5 years but we have come through them perfectly well and in some cases actually played better and gained unexpected results when our backs are against the wall.

You can never have enough players, and I suppose we will see a couple of outfield players in before the window closes. But as for injuries I suppose it's a case of how bad is the injury list because even the 'big' teams will struggle, witness Man U on Monday night and Vidic was their only recognisable CH. bviously the fundamental difference if that the Mancs & Chelsea can replace quality with quality, we don't have that luxury.

I think you can absolutely have too many players. When too many players aren't getting games it can easily lead to bad morale amongst the team. I'm honestly pretty happy with where our squad is. Jelavic and Mirallas can both play up front, Fellaini is playing more forward. Pienaar on the left and Naismith able to play across the midfield as well as up front if needed. Gueye can play out left. We have Coleman able to fill a role out right if something happens to Naismith, Mirallas and Osman. Moyes will probably bring someone in before the window shuts but it wouldn't bother me if he didn't after adding Pienaar, Naismith and Mirallas. I would be happy to sit on that money until January and use it then if we see an obvious need through the first half of the season.

Yes it is too small. But I don't think we need that many more. 2-3 players could make all the difference. We are light 1 playmaker. If Gibson is injured we are in trouble. We need another player of that ilk. Plus a winger. That is of course if we don't lose anymore.

Agree with James. Gibson has no replacements in our squad.

Would like to see a central midfielder who can play now and then maybe a younger forward as I'm not convinced vellios is all that.

I always think a squad can be assessed on its second XI so to speak.

If we take the first XI to be:

Howard
Hibbert, Jagielka, Heitinga, Baines
Mirallas, Gibson, Osman, Fellaini, Pienaar
Jelavic

Then that leaves us with a second XI (players who have played at least once) of

Mucha
Neville, Distin, Duffy, [left back],
Coleman, Neville, Barkley, Naismith, Gueye,
Vellios or Anichebe.

Those eagle eyed will notice Neville in there twice as I believe that it depends where Moyes sees Neville's main role to be as to where we need cover, either right back or central midfield. Also whether he thinks Vellios or Anichebe are up for a striker's slot; if not, then we need further attacking central midfield cover.

In short, unless we're relying on Junior and Garbutt, we need a left back, either a defensive central midfielder or a right back, and possibly an attacking central midfielder.

Is our squad too small? Probably.

Mancini: City need to start spending (Monday headline).

When is a squad big enough?

Hi Ben (#746), I think you're referring to Post #680 on this thread where Jags was said to have implied business was done.

I'd agree with you on Laudrup's 22/23 number as being reasonable. I think we're in reasonable shape and Moyes seems to be in a far far better state of mind so far this season, although he is showing few signs of utilizing any squad depth we may think he have (no doubt because he thinks he hasn't)! A few on here are doing the Fantasy Football thing, naming all sorts to come in, which is expected I suppose but I can never see the point of it. I just hope we don't lose anybody else...

On this topic, has anyone been following up on the 25-player limit, homegrown quota, and under-21 contingent that came into force a couple of seasons ago??? No-one seems to have been sent before the beak for flouting the rules... Are they actually working? Or is it just more lip-service to the ideal of increasing the number of home-country players in the Premier League, while the foreign influx continues unabated?

Im fairly sure we will get some dross to fill the squad on loan this week or very last minute a la Drenthe/Straq deals. Decent squad players but nothing massive.

When is a squad big enough?
Never, if your names Barry Fry!

Only problem I see at the moment is we have no real back up for Gibson. He seems to give the team the right balance and whenever he's not in the team, we're a worse side and don't play as fluidly, aswell as move the ball forward too slowly.

Would like to see another holding midfielder in but Moyes still seems to think Heitinga and Neville are adequate midfielders so don't think this will happen.

I can see something happening with charlie adam, unfortunately!

I stumbled across an old black-&-white MotD from 1967-68? opener against Man Utd at Goodison Park. I was there. (I'll get to the point soon). We beat them 3 - 1 with Ball scoring 2 and Young, well, what a goal!
Anyway, Wolstenhlom was commentating, and he kept referring to the Everton team as a bunch of youngsters. Royle was 17, Hurst was 19 and half the team looked like kids. They ran the Reds off the park, and they had Best, Law and Charlton.

Let the youngsters have a go. I'd make sure Garbutt got some playing time even if Baines was moved up the field to allow it. It would be great for the likes of Hope to have a go in the first team.

Relax a bit, it's only football. Enjoy this group of players while we can.

Denis810 and others
It's taken care of by the 'play in several positions' quality Everton has. Fellaini is surely, er, back-up, for Gibson. He's better than Gibson in that role. It's just that we prefer Felli further up now.

My preference remains for another striker. Before Jelavic, we were crap. Even when we dominated games territorially, we had no-one top finish off the moves with a decent strike at goal. You got to expecting that the first 30 minutes at Goodison would be Everton domination followed by picking the ball out of our own net. We are obviously full of more confidence than then; but if we don't have a proper striker - of which I don't rate Anichebe, or at least as yet, Velios - argh, it makes me shudder.

We can't let this great start - and am not just talking results - go to waste. Although I do fear a rather desperate last minute move for Owen, who does not even convince that he is up for the game anymore. He recently named three or four criteria for which club he wanted: he mentioned the size of the club, its style of play, but first mentioned location.

Trevor Lyynes, I think it is unfair to judge the reserves as a unit. Duffy,Barkley etc will not come into the first team en mass, Any of them brought in on their own playing along side good players against good opposition will be totally different.

If we bring in Doyle and Charlie Adam I believe we can finish top four. Berbatov and Adam would be even better. We are not too far away and it will not take a Leeds type gamble to give it a go.

Robert understand where you're coming from but given that Fellaini seems to be playing out of his skin in the advanced role at the moment, then it would be better to be able to leave him there rather than pulling him back as back up for Gibson.

Following your own logic, Mirralas can do a job up top in case Jelalvic is out, Naismith as well at a push, before we get to Vellios and Anichebe. I just think Gibson is our most influential player right now tbh. True the stars are Jelavic and Fellaini but GIbson is having the same influence that Lee Carsely had a few years ago - only with better passing...he allows the others to play their best game.

Anyway, will see what happens in the next 3 days...

What I'd give for another unheard of 23 year old Spaniard arriving for 2 million to then set the league on fire. If Moyes could replicate what he did to find Arteta and have that ilk of player sitting alongside Gibson (no judgement on Osman who's been playing fantastically) then that would be a great addition. Such a shame that the deal for Eva Banega fell through because of a work permit, what a player he could have been in that role for us. If we can see that we need an extra body in midfield and could do with a bit of central creativity then surely Moyes can as well.

Michael (#804), I am not sure of all the intracicies of the definition of 'homegrown' as it involves various factors based on age and how long somebody has played in that FA jurisdiction it does emphasise how thin our squad is. Basically after the transfer deadline closes you can name a squad of 25 players for the first team, not including under21's. Looking at our squad I think we only have 17, not sure about Duffy, Velios and Gueye but I think they are all U21. Can't think too many other premiership teams will be so light on depth of experienced players

Jimmy # 811. Why not Adam? A little bit of menace has long been lacking and he can play a bit too. I reckon he is just what we need.

Andy #851
Charlie Adam?Off the top of my head, I can't think of a potentially imminent signing that I've disliked as much.
You may have a point with "menace" or dirty depending on how you see things.
But I prefer to have a positive or neutral feeling towards potential EFC players.
Also, kopites want to offload him on to us which says it all. No thanks.
(However, I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen: just disappointed)

Played 2, won 2, 3 good signings, finally got rid of some dead-wood that had been lingering for a few years. Still got money to spend! I think some people genuinely search for something to moan about!

I think for the first time in a short while things are 99% positive at Everton! Why not enjoy it?

Adam joined a long list of players bought with red gold who have done sod all. I can't remember him being a dirty player for Blackpool, and under the guidance of DM's tender hand there's no way he would be for us. And he can play very good football exactly where we need cover for Gibson.

I've no idea if he's in the frame, but I can't see any objection in principle to him joining us. In fact, wouldn't it be nice if we rescued him?

Trevor #729 'Actually Liverpool are producing much better youngsters than we are. Sterling, Spearing and Kelly have all come through pretty well recently'

I'm afraid I can't agree with that at all. Firstly the RS bought Sterling from QPR for a fee which could rise to £5m based on appearances. He spent his entire youth career at QPR so can hardly be called a product of the RS youth academy. Same goes for Shelvey who they bought from Charlton.

Secondly Jay Spearing is 23 years old (nearly 24 - which is how old Fellaini & Gibson are) and has only ever played for the RS 30 times. He now looks to be on his way the championship with Bolton for just £3m. Two points 1) I'm sure Baxter and Wallace will succeed at championship level when they are his age (both are still only 20) and 2) Both big Vic and James Vaughan who are roughly the same age as Spearing (a few months older) have played a lot more games for us, than Spearing has for the RS.

Thirdly, fair enough Martin Kelly looks a decent player, but again at 22 is older than Rodwell (and has played a lot less) and is 2 years older than the likes of Duffy (and was at a similar stage of his development 2 years ago, to where Duffy is now).

If you're talking about youngsters that have progressed through their academy and into their first team squad you have Flanaghan and Robinson. Both may or may not go on to have decent careers. But neither have yet shown anything more than Barkley or Duffy.

I'd rather loan Chicarito over Berbatov. Berbatov is lazy and unmotivated in my opinion, and the industrious Chicarito would add more value to our strike force.

Mike (855) What if Adam only cost us 3.80? I would love to see Adam come in and for a great partnership with Gibson. Then I want to rub the RS's faces in it.

Mike #855, we were reportedly interested in Adam before he signed for the RS and like Keith #911 I remember him being a good player for Blackpool and not dirty at all.

I suppose somewhere someone could look up his fouls/yellow/red cards stats for his Blackpool apperances? I wouldn't know where to start.

GIYF

"He got 11 yellows last year with Blackpool, but no reds. Strangely enough, Blackpool had the least amount of yellow cards in the prem (47)"

And his bad tackle against Bale was during his Blackpool days.

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/charlie-adam-all-everton-fans-need-to-know-about-the-scottish-passmaster/

Greetings gentlemen. This is my first post on Toffeeweb!

Honestly, this is the best team I've ever seen Everton field since I started watching 10 years ago. I don't think people are giving us credit for just how improved our team is from an attacking perspective.

Avoiding injury will be crucial as it is with any team, but I see no reason our team won't dramatically improve on our 50-goal total from last season. We can attack from all angles with Pienaar, Baines, Mirallas, and Fellaini behind Jellyman. And we have them from the start, not as a loan spell or second-half signing.

Osman, who has always had a lack of pace, is now in the center where he is most useful, being crafty and passing about. We have not lost a game Gibson has started at holding mid and have only lost 3 of our last 25 games dating back to last season. We have the same, stingy back 4 and decent cover for it in Neville and Heitinga (Duffy and Garbutt IF it comes to it).

Forgive the optimism, but I feel that in our case, it's totally warranted. Top 4 is very achievable with Arsenal losing Alex Song and 30 goals and 13 assists from Van Persie, Tottenham losing their wizard Modric, and Liverpool recklessly overspending for decent talent. I think there will be a serious battle for 3-6 between Chelsea, Newcastle, Everton, Tottenham, and Arsenal.

However, I think outside of Chelsea, we are the most equipped from the rest of the bunch looking at the moves made so far by all the aforementioned teams. If we avoid the injury bug, Champions League is totally possible. Let's go!!!!

Eric Myles - What I meant was that Rodwell's sale reduced the average age of the squad because the funds were used to buy replacements (Naismith and Mirallas plus maybe one more) for other older players such as Cahill, Saha, Bily etc .
OK the funds were also used to buy Pienaar as well - but he is still younger than 2 of the 3 players mentioned above.

Spot on Pat.. I'd love to see Adam put one in at Anfield and rub their noses in it!

I thought Charlie Adam looked a class act at Blackpool. He made the Tangerines tick, scored 12 goals in the top flight and got plenty of assists. Quality set-piece delivery too.

Obviously as soon as he signed for the dark side, I replaced the words "class act" with the words "slow fat dirty bastard".

It's hard not to cloud your judgement of a player based on the side of the park they currently ply their trade. I think, deep down, I believe he is the type of player that Moyes could get the best out of and that he could really do a job for us... but the notion that he may just be a slow fat dirty bastard still keeps creeping into my mind!

Charlie Adam is a dirty mouthy scumbag he has always been a dirty mouthy scumbag which was why he gravitated to the Red Shite where such players are revered by their supporters. A player like Adam has no place in any Everton team and my 50+ years of loyalty to Everton will be seriously compromised if a shithouse like him is signed up by our Manager and Owner.

Adam could be the midfield enforcer that Heitinga thinks he is, but isn't?

Welcome, Peter Jones!

As I said in my main post, this season could be a good one, probably the next one too. After that, I see problems ahead: with us selling a key player each year, how good will our squad be after two seasons more?

The point is we do not seem to have a long term plan. Our U-21 side to me does have many top talented players. Junior will be a good player, soon, as will Barkley, but other then that I think the U-21 players are too average. That is probably the reason why Moyes let Baxter, Wallace and Forshaw go along with so many others.

In the past we had a few more that showed that little extra potential in contrast to all the other youngsters.

We got George Green in from Bradford, but as others point out Alan Stubbs does not strike me as a good youth coach at all. What has he done to help Moyes in recent years? Surely Alan Irvine is a much better coach then Stubbs so why is he not the one managing the U-21 side?

In addition to our squad being too short, we need to get more technical and attacking coaches in. They would replace Stubbs of course and do a much better job with our youngsters.

Moyes has not made any additions or fired any coaches for a long time. Alan Irvine and David Weir were at the club before but they are the only additions I can see.

We have too many defensive coaches, how many are ex-defenders?

Thanks Jimmy! As far as a long term plan goes, I see where you are coming from. Our short term plan is to win. And when you win, generally good things happen. More attractive youth players should come in with our increasing funds and prestige levels etc. This is why we have to capitalize on the strength of our core players to reach the Champions League/Europa League this year and the next. It's obvious, but it really is the best way to attract new talent, youth or first team. And if we are a serious contender for the signing of any wonder kid AC Milan/Arsenal/Man City are interested in, I can't really be too displeased. As far as the coaches go, I can't say I know much about how they are bringing the youngins along. But maybe they just can't cut it and we need some new blood. I agree Barkley and Junior are the cream of the crop for now. All I know is winning in the short term can't hurt our long term future.

The answer to the main question is "probably, which is why we may add one or two names before close of business and others may go out on loan to prove themselves". Goalkeeper cover worries me the most followed by left back and up front - though this is slightly less of a concern after the last signing. Attacking width would be a welcome addition.

As others have pointed out - many of the squad are versatile so we have decent cover for most positions. The danger will come if injuries and suspensions combine to cost us a number of players at one time. With a fair wind, our squad is on a par - if not better than - those at Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs or Newcastle - Chelski, and the two Manchester clubs are far ahead of the group we're in so we're scrapping for fourth. Given the relative wealth of the clubs in and some below Everton's group, we're doing well.

You know what I have enjoyed these two games more than I have enjoyed two games on the run in a long time. Whilst it would be nice to have more players I am too busy being happy than looking for the cloud in the middle of the sliver lining.
What if all the players contract beri-beri or abscond to Ecuador where will we be then?

Jimmy -

Our squad is no longer too small....

Time to dream, and think big.