Liverpool are not as bad as you're making out, and not in as much trouble as you're making out. Unfortunately. The general gist is about right though, we've closed the gap on them, and are currently certainly ahead. They will improve hugely though, and will be around and about the top 6 themselves at the end of the season.

Steady on.... lets just see where we are in April and the other lot before getting carried away.

I now consider fate well and truly tempted and should our fortunes change drastically for the worse, I will have no hesitation in blaming you.

In fact I can already hear a commentary on a game 10 years from now.

It's....it's a Champions League final I think.

Yes, it's Bayern V Porsmouth (a billionaire Arab bough them and they 'did a City').

Commentator: 'Well Portsmouth now absolutely cruising...3 nil up and 20 minutes to go....I don't want to Tim Luke them, but I'd say they have this in the bag".

Type stuff.

Had a look at Liverpool's line-up the other day. Many "interesting" new characters in their team. This is to say that their team is nowhere as bad as you claim it to be. Whether their manager can handle the pressure is another matter though.

We will know more about the tide after 10-12 games.

Liverpool will have a good go at the top six places this season, don't even doubt that. And they'll strengthen / rectify their striking mistakes in January. It's our job to stay ahead of them and somehow try not to lose 6 points to them. Don't ever forget the pact they have signed with the devil!

I do think Brendan Rodgers is the achilles heel though. The job is too much too soon for him. I don't for one minute doubt his ability, but to rebuild a club with that sort of record with one season of top flight football behind him is probably going to be too much. And I don't think they will spend big in January either because I'm not sure it's there.

We should not be discussing Liverpool. It might be used against us. They might read this to gain a moral boost. Rogers after the next training session with a printed copy of these comments in hand: "Look, even the Evertonians are praising you!" Shut up now.

I'm with the ever-droll Mr Ruane on this one. Effectively, 'The Tide is Changing on Merseyside' slips into something slinky, pouts prettily and says "Mr Fate, would you like to come in for a nightcap?"

Also, I'm struggling a bit with "we can tell our children in the future that we were there in 2012 when the tide changed on Merseyside". Er, Tim - if it happens you won't be there, you're in Singapore!

6 games in and out of the Cup springs to mind.

Well, Kev Johnson, knowing as I do, what a clear-minded fella you are, I would like to point out that it is possible to determine future events with recourse to the present. There are people who get paid for doing this, and I do not mean the gypsy lady with the crystal ball. The causes of the future events are to be found in the present. Most amongst are us are able to apprehend a chain of causes stretching from one day to the other, whereas other are able to apprehend a chain of causes leading into the next decade.

Whether our time really has come, is yet to be determined. Let us see how we fare against the likes of Arse, Shitty, and Chelski.

#839. ''I would like to point out that it is possible to determine future events with recourse to the present. There are people who get paid for doing this, and I do not mean the gypsy lady with the crystal ball. The causes of the future events are to be found in the present. Most amongst are us are able to apprehend a chain of causes stretching from one day to the other, whereas other are able to apprehend a chain of causes leading into the next decade.''

Are you ok?

Those people do exist Julian. There called con-artists.

This is wishful thinking.

Liverpool may need to sell to balance their books a bit and we may well finish above them this season. But longer term unless there is a structural uplift to Everton (i.e. we get into the Champions League a few years running or get a billionaire owner) that even without LFC getting Champions League football their revenue is going to be consistently more than ours. Which means that they will be able to hire and pay better players.

The gap has closed because they have lost their automatic access to the Champions League. But the structural advantage remains with LFC for now.

Evertonians of a certain age (like me) have a "show me the body" attitude to claims about the demise of those monstrous creatures.

Even during Kendals revival of our great club they turned us over in 3 cup finals.

They're not as bad as we like to think which could be proved in a few weeks when Moyes decides whether to revert to type or not.

Colin Wainwright: con-artists and gypsy ladies belong to the same category. I was thinking of people like Kim Philby.

We'll see if the tide has changed when we play them.

It isn't and it won't.

I'm sticking to my usual take on the those fuckers - whenever they look like they are shite, we end up playing that bit shitter.

I don't mean to be materially deterministic about this (oh just a bit then) but the tide turns on Merseyside twice a day. I have travelled the Birkenhead Ferry and know something about these things.

As for the football, I said as we finished well last May, we've got one more season to nail this. Fellaini, Jelavic, Heitinga, maybe Baines and Jagielka will be made offers they can't refuse if we don't get a high finish. Top 4 even then may be essential. Then the 'investment' would, probably, follow. And the squad would be strengthened .... etc.

7th or lower could have very serious consequences for us.

Across the park? Don't know to be honest. How you piss £50mil against the wall, although I've done my best, I just can't imagine. But its a dangerous beast, possibly more so when wounded.

If our own house remains in order for the next, what? 40 games or so, all will be well, no matter what they do.

The other problem is that football is fluid and as of right now it's too difficult to say what will really happen in the future. Liverpool will always have the worldwide pull because we can't seem to ever go aggressively enough after the Asian and American markets.

I say, mate, enjoy today's view and wish for rosier settings tomorrow. None of us have the faintest clue about tomorrow - If you listened to BK 10 years ago you'd thought we'd have been sold by now.

Liverpool was also purchased by people looking to make money on their investment first and foremost. That means they will find someone eventually who will take it off their hands who has big money and thus the tides could certainly change right back in a hurry.

Enjoy Today.

And on an aside, I know's it's great that Liverpool are a shambles but it just seems so pessimistic for us to always bring them up. It's as if some people would rather see them lose than us win.

In Boston, they cheer "Yankees suck!" when they're not even playing the Yankees. The Yankees aren't worried about the Red Sox because they haven't beaten them consistently for 60 years (sans two championships). Liverpool isn't worried about us, they've been kicking our asses since the 80's. Lets focus on us and how well we can do for once. Let's let them cheer "Everton suck!" When they're playing Stoke.

Chris Kelly - I think in our own ways we just said the same thing.

I'm on the same page as Keith and Chris on this one. The income generation of Liverpool will always ensure we are pedalling against the stream. The only possible route for us to challenge consistently Liverpool is for us to gain a Top 4 place and if we are still stuck with Bill & Co then we need to do that on a regular basis hopefully improving each season, both at home and in the CL until success on the field brings in income. The only other hope is that again short term success at home and in Europe brings along the major investment , either via a group like FSG or another Arab/Russina/Indian billionaire who wants to join and develop the Everton brand.

It is a matter of fact - " The Highest Payers win the Highest Awards" - FACT , We need a huge increase in our income stream to compete not only with Liverpool but the rest of the Top " 12/15" out there.

One comment I would like to challenge hoping someone out there knows the answer is that the fact stated above hold true in England, Spain etc but does Germany buck the fact . Dortmund vs City last night , anyone know the respective income/salaries as Dortmund battered City.

Tim
The glass half full view will say we have only lost 3 league games in 2012 and on this calendar years form should be considered top 4.

The glass half empty view will tell you about the FA,FIFA , referees and media conspiracies to ensure both the Red devils and Satan's reds will prosper even in adversity.

We have promised so much and failed to deliver on so many occasions that my real fear is the now raised level of expectancy when we hit a bad run and the supporters turn on the players instead of encouraging them.

Southampton was a classic case in point.

There we are fighting for second place and the ground was like a mausoleum at times.

We cant even get consistency over 90 minutes let alone a season so it is far too early to predict what will be.

Lets just enjoy it for now and see where it takes us.

Jay - I am pro Moyes, but his teams have only really played well in one half. It's been pretty rare that we have battered teams in goals and performance over the 90 minutes in 10 years.

I am not knocking it by the way, Walter had a couple of big wins but mostly dreadful. Special mention to chucking my guts up at Maine Road on the wrong end of a mauling, thanks Walter.

Nice change of font Ian. Seamless.

Tim, I am absolutely certain that"many of the RS fans" will definitely not see 10th place as an achievement. I fear that you may well be what is known here as a "scud" A man whose arrival in a betting shop can cause one's betting slip to automatically disintegrate.

Lyndon, this bold type is nothing to do with me. The stuff on the other thread was miles over my head.

Sorry Julian. I don't know much about Kim Philby TBH. Spy that defected to the USSR. I'll stop there.

Shite are getting beat though. Ha Ha.

3-1 to Udinese. Who'd have thunk it.

I wonder whether the Shite aren’t in a bit of trouble. Their new manager wants them to play a passing game. It’s like asking a hippopotamus to ice skate.

The Shite have spent thirty years playing kick and rush, shove and push, direct, long ball football. They bought their Geordie folly last season to fit this style. All their teams have been coached to play the same way, the juniors, the stiffs, the lot. The new style isn’t working for them. Rodgers can’t persevere for ever with his game if they continue to languish near the bottom. They could get caught betwixt and between for a while. And then they’ll sack their manager. At which point Rafa returns … to a “smaller” club.

I’d “luv it” to happen.

Thanks Colin. I am going to save it for when Lyndon goes on holiday.

A quirk of fixtures has Liverpool playing 6 home games and away to us over the next 7 games. They should get the wins on the board, although if they don't the pressure will be turned up on BR.

One home game, one defeat. So far, so good, keep it help Agent Rodgers.

Well stated Keith and Mike. It's just the truth now isn't it?

Regarding Dortmund, I was thinking the same thing. I know they bought Reus for 37 million euros - or something close to that - so they definitely have money. They also sell well and draft good young players in the Xavi, Iniesta mold. They are fabulous to watch and make me believe in the fact that if the system is good, there can be a lot of moving parts. Kagawa leaves and Reus comes in. They take young players like Gundogan who looks to be a peach. Arsenal is similar but not as "together" as Dortmund. This is the style that most continental teams now utilize. Small players that can fit into different roles with the fullbacks coming forwards. We're just catching onto it. Better late than never.

We have played well in fits and starts this season and the overall picture is of a more fluid and attack-minded approach, as opposed to hoofing the ball up front and hoping for the best. The pairing of Coleman/Mirallas has certainly helped to add to the Pienaar/Baines/Fellaini axis and, when Gibson is back, I hope we can kick on and extend this 'Barca' style for longer periods and finish teams off with no mercy.

I just don't have the same optimism as some on here who are salivating at the prospect of a strong Everton going into a derby match as faves. I remember us being the pits and Liverpool as Champions of Europe in the 70s but we raised our game and usually earned a share of the spoils or – thanks to King's strike – even better.

They have a habit of scaring the shit out of Moyes; if only he'd adopt the same formula as the AJ game, we'd have a real go at them for a change. Sadly, I'm certain he'll prefer 'Kung-fu' Tony at right back and Jelly on his own up front. Just like last season, he will probably hand over the initiative instead of telling his players they are there for the taking.

This is probably the last chance of us achieving anything under DM as the vultures will come buzzing if we don't live up to expectations this season. So, starting with the derby, let's hope he surprises us and keeps the pressure on their fading lights.

I wouldn't write Liverpool off just yet. In all of the games I've watched them this year they have played well and lost several games they didn't deserve to. They are playing a fast fluid game and no poor team scores 5 away in a Premier League match. Is that fast, fluid and ineffective like Swansea? Yes, they have some real duffers but they have some good young players too. Maybe I've just got a bloody complex about them.

This season will be pretty defining for both clubs and it could see us established as a top club and them finished as the big club they have tried to maintain they are for 20 barren years.

I wish we'd had 20 barren years like they have. Champs League, Uefa Cup, FA Cup, League Cup winners! Sounds pretty good to me. It's funny that even on the new Fifa 13 game the commentary makes a point of our inferiority complex against Liverpool. Even when Liverpool are shit we are still obsessed and intimidated by them. Very sad...

Yes, fair comment Lee. I should have said 'relatively barren'.

People must not forget that Moyes has assembled a good squad of challenging the top 6 maybe the top 4 but at the end of the day if we are to remain ahead of our mersey rivals for a sustained period of time, we still need significant investment year after year on the team. We are a skint club and until the the club becomes in a financially stronger position this 'changing tide' could well just be a blip. Eventually big name players will be sold to balance the books and then we're back to square one. The liverpool owners will invest again in the team in time, maybe not just yet but they will even if it's keeping top stars and adding one or two each summer. That's the difference between them and us.

I think that's right, Mick. Moyes is going to have a choice. If Coleman is playing well at right back, I fear Moyes will go for the negative option of Hibbert. I hope I am wrong, but....

Going back to Liverpool scoring 5. The interesting thing was all of Suarez's goals were outside the box. When he's hot he's hot, when he's not they're in the stand. If he'd scored 3 tap-ins it's time to worry. He's a good footballer, but he will squander a lot of points.

Interesting point Ian.

The trouble with tides - Shite often floats to the top.

C S Lewis wrote a big story about this in his popular "Narnia" series - The Voyage of the False Dawn Treader.

If we don't concede our annual 6 points to them, maybe I'll believe this has a different ending.

As a footnote to my previous post, I watched the highlights of the Norwich game and have to say, they must be the poorest team in the league. Most, if not all of Liverpool's goals were of the home side's own making; defensively they are a shambles... a real Titus Brambles — and Suarez even managed to miss probably his easiest chance of the day. The most revealing stat for me was the kopites conceding 2 goals: if the Canaries can do it, and they're total shite, then I'm sure Jelly, Miraculous and Felli etc can muster a couple.

If Moyes doesn't go for the kill this time around, he never will. If the Coleman-Mirallas combo is still working by then, why change it?

Should they play Downing on the left we wouldn't need any right back at all, he is gash! If the Sterling gets the nod then Seamus has got the pace to keep up with him, though his trickery could lead to silly fouls.

I'm currently weighing up whether to go, the deciding factors being funds, someone to go with and the fear of Moyes pulling his pants down and bending over. (Not literally, of course!)

Sorry James, but I think its sold out now...

Brendan Rodgers's Relegation Dodgers are absolute gash if you ask me, sold off all their (half-decent) players and are now relying on England's worst ever B-team, over-hyped no-mark kids and a crap system enforced by a useless (out-of-his-depth) PE teacher who really thinks they've played great every time they get beat..

We Blues couldn't have asked for better than King Kenny... stand up Queen Brenny!

I wasn't worried until this post appeared... Fate is a cruel mistress I have been trying to hide from for years but she always appears twice a year to beat me with a massive stick.

Gosling and AJ excluded I have very rarely ever had fun when the derby kicks off in my 20 years...

Even though we are 2nd in league, the latest Sky games just published show us appearing only once in Nov and Dec (vs Chelsea at Goodison, Dec 30th) whilst Liverpool and Newcastle on 4 times over same period!!! What we got to do to get on Sky radar?!?!?

Jesus Christ, I've only just read this. Kris is right. Why would we tempt fate by writing something that is guaranteed to throw a spanner amongst the pigeons?

Or is it a cat in the works Matt?

I genuinely believe now is the time to step out into the free transfer market and finally complete the long anticipated signing of world-class everyman Kev Johnson...

James is this the same Downing that destroyed Baines in the semi final? Make no illusions about it, the RS's worst players always come to the fore against us whilst our stars seem to shrink in front of them.

I think one transformation that is happening is a reduction in their phytsical prowess. Rafa's teams all used to be over 6 foot, they would choke the life out of you, bash it long, harry you into mistakes and hope Gerrard would lash in a deflected rebound. Rodgers's team is full of smaller physically weaker players.

If it comes to a football competition rather than a kick-and-rush job then I fancy our chances a bit more. Some of the newer arrivals like Jelavic, Mirallas and Gibson don't seem to have any respect for whoever they're playing so will hopefully not freeze like past players have at the mere mention of Liverpool. We've shrugged off our Man Utd complex in recent times now to finally shake off our last burden.

I watched the Liverpool game last night and was amazed at the tone of the commentators (Andy Townsend and A N other) with regards to Liverpool and their new manager, according to them the inventor of the passing game.

Basically it was just so blinkered, with the emphasis on when and not if Liverpool start sweeping away all before them. It was if they are not allowed to say anything at all in case someone at Liverpool got upset by any sort of objectivity or caveat following on from the gushing praise.

The icing on the cake for me was that at 1-1 they brought on Gerrard and Suarez and within 10 minutes they were 3-1 down. Suarez then scores from a free kick and both commentators just ignored the fact that they'd conceded 2 goals and kept going on about how great they were for Liverpool when before they came on they were actually drawing not losing. I was shouting at the telly by this point.

Conclusion is that they have such a big fanbase they must not be upset at any cost by commentary teams.

As much as I relish Liverpool's position in the league, they will not stay there for long. They have some good players and have dominated most of their matches in terms of possession and chances. Despite the league placings, we are well matched teams but for some reason they always seem to have the edge mentally. Whether that is Moyes's fault or the players' is debatable in my mind, though no doubt some will think not.

My dread is that when I watch Liverpool I see Suarez playing with at times genius and I have never seen anybody create so many chances in a game for a long time. The amazing thing is that he bloody misses them all. My nightmare is that against us they go in.

Never mind all the chances Suarez creates. Everton so far this season have had more shots than any other team and are also top of the table for shots hitting the woodwork.

If we treat the RS the same way we treat everyone else then we have nothing to fear. I'll believe it when I see it though.

Good subject. It certainly has people talking.

I think we all enjoy a bit of escapism and this fanciful post is great. For that reason: I'm in.

However, extrapolation with little concern for variables should be enjoyed with a pinch of salt.

Everton, for instance, have a good team but a thin squad. Also, may be on financial thin ice. If the bank comes knocking again players will go.

Liverpool, a team in transition with some very good players, have a new man at the helm who needs time to prove himself. I've heard him referred to as a great manager, which is clearly silly as he hasn't done anything yet, but, in truth, nobody knows how good he is.

I like talking about them because it makes me feel even better about Everton but, nice though schadenfreude can be, I'm not sure it is either healthy or helpful. For that reason: I'm out.

Derby games and winning them is essential for this team to progress. Any capitulation will be down to the players and manager and tactics. The next two games are worth 6 points and on current form it's achievable. A result of any description with the Shite will be good for the bigger picture, and that is a top four finish. I want to beat the Shite but I also want to qualify for the CL.

Some of you talk about both Moyes' and our players' inferiority complex when coming up against them, but have you heard yourselves?

Despite their abysmal form over a long period, you are still talking up the RS. This recent Norwich away victory was their first in the league this season. Granted, they scored five, but having looked at the stats (I don't watch their matches, as a rule), and it possibly wasn't the overwhelming victory that the media make out. Practically everything they tried worked, and even a very poor Norwich team managed to score twice.

How about focussing on us, and showing a bit more optimism and positivity for our team? We are playing the best football since the eighties, and crucially, we have end product.

I know, I know, they always seem to "do us" in the derbies, and I've had my share of heartbreak at their hands since the early 1970s, but let's shake off this negativity and inferiority complex amongst the fans, eh?

Well said Peter Askins

Peter, you seem to have a very short memory... recall the bouyant mood going into the derby last spring when the form book had us finally winning over there?

Perhaps you remember what Moyes then did to throw a bucket of wet fish over that optimism and positivity.

What's that saying: fool me once...

Like everyone else, I'm more than happy to see Liverpool in their current slump, and more importantly to see us playing some good stuff and enjoying the high life. However, I think it's far too early to be talking about turning tides.

Their successes in the past have assured them of a massive fanbase and a turnover that dwarfs ours several times over. Barring their continued decline on the pitch (and maybe even inspite of it), they will buy themselves out of trouble if they have to. They will eventually build their new stands to accommodate some of their massive waiting list of fans and extend their financial lead over us still further.

If Moyes can start actually winning trophies, and their on-pitch fortunes decline further we may have a chance to actually turn that tide..... do to them what they did to us in the 70s. But, it will really take something of that level to turn things around properly. Either that or a Man City type take-over.

Martin (#092) – I think he's only played 3 times against us (I could be wrong) and scored twice so it looks like already he likes playing against us. I just hope Moyes doesn't pack our midfield, leave Jelavic isolated and hope to snatch something on the break because, believe me, that will not work. Anyway, we shouldn't be worrying about them – we've got 2 games to play before they come so let's win those and see where that takes us.

When the shite have called in the receivers.. then I'll believe it. Lets hope that's not far off.

Michael (103) - My first "stomach punch" game as an Evertonian, the Semi. Only game in 3 years I knew we were winning.

So here: We play them on the 28th. I expect us to take them apart. After which, a "2010 EFC-ManU" post game rant from you, please.

You beautifully expressed passion in words then. More of the same? We're on?

I would mostly agree with the sentiments of caution expressed on this thread that are based upon years of hopes being dashed, some dreadful decisions going against us, and us being generally shite all round. Perhaps we really are scared of them and this fear affects all aspects from the boardroom downwards.

I have attacked Moyes many times for being cautious and seemingly in awe of them and yet we the fans are afflicted by this 'urban myth' of them being some kind of invincible red army. They are shite and have been for years, yes we have been worse in the past, but we are better than them NOW and its now that counts. We need to get stuck in on the 28th I couldnt stomach another gutless performance like the last two.

FFS lads..I bet the shite forums aren't worrying about playing us in 3 weeks time. Fuck them & Fames#201 has got it right...we'll destroy them.

I like and admire Brendan Rodgers but I believe we are a better team with a better spirit. Brendan #220 I really believe we will do them in the way they have been worthy of it for years.

Everton have an injury crisis; Duffy and Hibbert at centre back. Coleman crosses and Duffy heads in the winner to complete the first ever hat trick by a center half in a derby game.

Sorry, they were doing two bottles of strong red for £9 in the offy tonight.

I just hope the ref isn't Crappenberg

We will go top just before 21/12/12.... then the world will end thus robbing us yet again of our just deserts. I don't mind the world ending but those RS's will have the last laugh... no wonder I'm bitter.

Andy (#224) - I hate and detest Brendan Rodgers ,,,,,,,I'm waiting for the Derby to tell me what direction our season will eventually take. The result aside (as Derby's - well who the fuck knows)....but if we go out with intent and take it to those fuckers then - I think....we'll probably win and push on...(assuming the odious little Rat Boy Suarez and Stevie "i'm honest never taken a dive ever" G don;t get some lightweight decisions go their cheating way). Honestly ...guess what - WE'RE GONNA WIN DE LEAGUE!!!

I have never understood why any Evertonian would torment themselves by watching the redshite live on tv. Why not just ignore them? I have not watched them live since the 1989 Cup Final. Would only watch them if playing us in a final. When living in UK and watching MoTD I used to turn the sound down and look away when they came on (OK, not if they lost!). I still do the same if their manager pops up on the sports news on BBC World. I could only ever name a handful of their players. They just have a negative impact on my life/our lives, so why bother with them?

Ha Ha Andy #224
Two bottles of stong red for £9....Duffy to score a hat-trick? Many bottles did you buy?