My opinion may not be as valid, as an American and only in the last few years following the sport, not being aware or sensitive to any rivalry between the two cities, etc.

But I can tell you I dislike Man City and Chelsea far more than I dislike Man United. United have always been a big club, a worldwide brand to my knowledge. But the new-moneyed, no-history likes of City and Chelsea have usurped Everton's rightful place as one of the "big clubs" simply because they hit the lottery, and their plastic supporters don't realize Everton have still won far more trophies than their stupid clubs.

I would rather see United and Arsenal succeed than the two lucky new money clubs, since they have arguably always been "bigger" than Everton, whereas City and Chelsea are usurping our natural place among them in the "big club" category.

That's just my view all the way from New York, I'm sure there are other reasons a native Scouser might hate United that I'm not privy to.

I don't mind Man Utd myself, they play good togger and are a well run club (admittedly in a lot of debt though) but they've got a forward thinking board who put the club first.

They might have just had a lot of money riding on the result with a certain William Hill! Or been Real Madrid supporters!

Every song Man Utd sing is anti-scouse. Last night was hilarious. Watching old whiskey nose getting upset about a refereeing decision – the same whiskey nose who has made a career out of hounding and intimidating officials! Brilliant.

I would say it is envy of the manager they have got. He is overall brilliant in my view, though he looks bitter on his older years now, what he did and continues to do with youngsters coming trough making them top, top players is something every club want in their manager.

He has had enough money to spend because of that, but it all started somewhere. How I wish Moyes could learn from Ferguson in how to pick the right youngsters and have faith in them no matter what!!!!!!!

Moyes simply lacks the ability to not only find, but have faith and keep playing these youngsters until they show what they are made off. Our squad age is now the oldest it has been since Moyes came here first, so in other words he is going backwards and I really hate it!

Moyes has a really tough job in rebuilding this squad, personally I do not think he is up for it, his trust in young players is gone, plus he prefers to buy players who are ready made and that we cannot afford. It is that simple. Moyes needs to get it in his head that "myths" can only go so far before they are forgotten. "Here at Everton we give youth a chance" motto is a really bad joke, the facts speaks for themselves.

Southampton have understood and done well with their youth, why are not Everton surpassing Southampton in that area? It is ONLY because of Moyes. He controls the club.

They are Mancs, they hate us Scousers, and we hate them, end of.

I remember me old fella used to like (and respect) Man Utd, probably from growing up watching Everton in the 50s and 60s, when Utd also had great teams. So, with that in mind, I've never really had the intense dislike of them as a fair amount of scousers do; as Col says, they play good stuff. That said, I was happy to see Real win last night — probably due to the press saturation leading up to the game... and Ferguson does my head in.

Agree Mike. The fans are a different matter.

If we can't win, I want them to. Nothing winds up a Kopite more than Man Utd beating them, or winning another League title.

Twisted logic I know, but anything that annoys a redshite is alright by me.

Man Utd are a really great team and I admire them a lot... BUT... when EFC players were sent off for far less than Nani's dismissal, there was very little media coverage. I really believe that certain teams in the Premier League are treated better by referees than other supposedly lesser teams.

I don't believe that there would have been a similar outcry if it had been a Real Madrid player who was sent off. Man Utd get the best of most decisions in the Premier League and no club should be above the rules.

When Keane played, he got away with murder and I do not remember him ever being criticised by Alex Ferguson. Swings and Roundabouts is my feelings and it's just a game of football after all.

I don't dislike Man Utd THAT much... they are a bit like the JR of the football world – the bad guy who lots of people like to see lose just because they normally win! It's the same with Ferguson, he's a grumpy ol' swine but I actually think I will miss him when he's gone.

What I don't like, however, is their lack of grace when defeated. And that includes their "new" fans. For a team who wins most things (certainly domestically), you would think they could handle the odd defeat here and there.

Last night at the final whistle, I saw Man Utd players refusing to shake hands with Real Madrid players and Ferguson refused to speak to the press. It just all seemed a bit bitter from them. Surely a club like Reall Madrid deserve their respect?

I also have a lot of friends who are Man Utd supporters, only from the 1990s onwards, and don't know what it's like to support a club through hard times – maybe that's why they can't handle defeat so much.

And let's not forget how many decisions go their way over time, to moan that they always get the rough end of the stick, as they are doing after last night's game, kind of falls on deaf ears (they wanna try supporting Everton).

And I have to confess that I did cheer when both Real Madrid goals went in and I am glad they went through. They are just more likeable as a club.

Tribalism, pure and simple. They're not Everton so "we" (I wanted them to win) hate them. I think people generally working and socialising with mostly people who support their own team or local rival perpetuates the "them and us" outlook. I've worked out of the area for 90% of my working life with Utd, Spurs, Celtic supporters. They're "mostly" no different from us — apart from their misguided love of their own tems that is. ;-)

I don't dislike Man Utd at all. In fact I almost always pull for the English teams in the CL – except for Chelsea (I hate them) and the RS back in the day they were actually in the thing.

Being American, I detest all the stupid American bandwagon jumping idiots who wear the Man Utd jersey and claim to be a fan, but when asked to name even but 5 of their players can't get past "Rooney, uuhhhh, errrrrr, hang on a second....."

I felt awful for Man Utd last night frankly. That was a horrible call. The worst call (non-call) I've seen in my tender 6-7 years of watching from afar and supporting Everton, or at least the one that pissed me off the most, was the Jamie Carragher rapes Lescott in the box in the derby at Goodison like 6 years ago or so.

Last night I wondered what was a worse injustice. That tackle in broad daylight by that cheating thug Carragher and the subsequent "I have money on this game my whistle is going in my pocket" Clattenburg, or that awful call last night on Nani.

It was a really horrible call. I don't even think it was a yellow.

I logged in to say exactly what Mike @ 840 has said. From a very early age growing up in Liverpool it was drilled into our young psyche to hate all things RED whether that be the Shite or the Mancs.

It was and is that simple and to quote a the ending of a very famous Everton saying "needs no explanation".

I don't like them but I don't quite 'hate' them the way I do with LFC and Chelsea. I certainly respect them more.

It's their arrogant fans I have a particular dislike of, and the fact that they have 'fans' from every corner of the globe who 'support' them purely because they win trophies.

If we had shown the same nous and ambition they had before the formation of the Premier League, perhaps there wouldn't be such a big gap between us.

I don't have a serious problem with Man United but the issue I have is in the Premier League what happened last night would never ever happen these days, the ref last night made an honest decision, he believed it was a red card so he acted upon it. If that was a Premier League game there is not a chance in hell that the ref would've even given a yellow.

I know for a fact that, when Everton play Man United at Old Trafford, it wouldn't matter how blatant the offence was, the ref will never give us a penalty and wouldn't dare send a United player off and it's because of Sir Alex Ferguson. Premier League refs are shit scared of him, as are the FA. It was good to see that Uefa refs don't have that fear, they just give what ever they think is the correct decision.

Real Madrid last night had a perfectly good goal ruled out, no mention of that, but the ref thought there was a foul so that's the decision he gave. He felt the Nani challenge was a red card so that's what he gave, no influence from the crowd, no fear of how Ferguson would react was going to change his mind, good on him!

As for the challenge on Nani, all I can say is if it was the other way round and Nani was on the receiving end of a challenge like that, he would still be rolling holding his ribs now so it couldn't really have happened to a nicer bloke!!

I don't know or care about Liverpool fans' reasons but, for me, the reason I was happy that Man United got knocked out yesterday was simply because I am sick of how they are treated like untouchables over here by the media and refs and the FA etc etc... so it was just nice to see them get a taste of their own medicine.

I also thought Rio Ferdinand's reaction at the end of the game was disgraceful, imagine what the FA would do to an Everton player if he reacted like that after a bad decision by a ref, they would come down on us like a ton of bricks so I hope that's what Uefa do to him!

My "hatred" of them has tempered over time. I used to hate them almost as much as the RS. Why? I think it was because they had loads of "fans" all over the country who had never been to a game and would crawl out from under their rocks the moment there was a whiff of success and then go back under that rock when it wasn't going their way. Same as RS fans from London. Man U v RS derby and the M6 from London gets clogged up!

Anyway, things change and along comes money to Chelski and City, so now they've suddenly got loads of new fans crawling out of the woodwork, new people to despise. So they have taken the focus of my ire more than Man U lately.

Yesterday, I actually wanted Man U to win. Why? Because here in Latin America there is a situation similar to that mentioned above, but with Real Madrid and Barcelona. Here there are lots of armchair fans of the two. The ones who use the first person plural to include themselves when they talk about those clubs like they go to the match every week (yes I know difficult for them to get there!).

So I think for me, it's the dislike of clubs with huge followings of "supporters" who have never even seen their "beloved" ground.

As for AF (The S omitted intentionally), I don't think there is another manager who winds me up more. How he got knighted I will never understand. For me being knighted is not only about being good in your field, it also includes other qualities, one of them being a gentleman and setting an example. He most certainly does NOT exemplify the qualities of a gentleman in my eyes, and if there was something to be savored out of yesterday's defeat it is smiling to think of his blood pressure and how much whisky he needed to drown out the memory!

Historians might be able to explain it better but there has always been rivalry between Liverpool and Manchester throughout history outside of football. The Shipping trade through the Mersey and the charges to Manchester and their industries forcing them to build the Manchester Ship Canal, then the Airports etc. They are the nearest big city and between the two sides of each city we are the most successful footballing cities.

As a scouser I was always brought up to dislike the Mancs but over time I have found myself disliking Liverpool fans and Man City, Chelsea and even teams like Newcastle and Spurs more.

The rivalry between the CITIES of Manchester and Liverpool is a long and quite bitter one and has nothing to do with football. However, the rivalry between the clubs is an altogether different thing. I have mellowed a bit towards Utd, mainly because nothing pisses the RS off more than Utd do and the fact that they have now passed the RS's total of title wins gives me a relatively good feeling. Up until the advent of the Prem , I think I'm right in saying that Utd were not as successful as Everton with regard to League Title wins, indeed, Bobby Charlton is on record as saying that Utd usually came away from Goodison after a football lesson, but whereas they have been run as a business we have been run like Arkwrights corner shop, with a succession of Dickheads in charge with the result that we are now in the shadow of several clubs who have enjoyed astute business acumen at Board level. That doesn't mean to say that the likes of Nani, Ashley Young, and Seabiscuit (Van Nostrilroy, horse face) would benefit from anything less than a four iron round the back of their whingeing heads. And don't get me started on Bacon Face and his fuckin' Timex. (this is me having mellowed)
As for City, I always thought of them as a club in a similar position to us, having to put up with neighbours with a spoilt, arrogant fanbase who sulked when things didn't go their way but I'm afraid the Arabs dosh have made them as bad or worse than Utd. Remember the attitude of that shower of twats when they came in for Lescott, and not just from Father Ted, who is another one deserving of a well struck four iron....
So, in a nutshell, Utd are not SO bad so long as they're upsetting the Shite, and City can sink in a large vat of dog shit without the benefit of any form of breathing apparatus whatsoever.

I don't hate Manchester United, I hate Sir Alex Ferguson. Now I won't argue with the fact that he's a great manager but he is such a whinger.

I don't hate any other team or the fans of any other team. When I first posted on this site a year or two ago, I was called a hippy for expressing the opinion that hate is deeply uncool. So be it. I'd rather be a (new-wave) hippy than a hater.

Mike @ 840 speak for yourself, I think they are great.

See Kevin @844 for reason why.

Aww I think it was a definite yellow, Jamie. As Keane pointed out, it was dangerous play and going by the book (apparently), intent doesn't come into it.

Anyone remember the Liverpool - Man Utd game at Anfield 3 years ago when Carragher just lunged at Nani's leg, almost snapping it? No attempt at the ball – just shear thuggery. Well I don't think that he even booked Carragher that night, so it just goes to show you sometimes that bad decisions go for you and sometimes against.

By the way, Real looked like they would have won the game anyway when Modric came on... pure class.

The people of Manchester absolutely hate Scousers and have a massive problem with us.

And Uniteds fans are a shower of absolute twats.

I want them to lose every game, aside from when they play the shite.

When Manure went 1-0 up their approach didn't change and even when Nani was sent off, they left plenty of forwards on the pitch. I wondered what Moyes would have done in a similar situation......my guess was batten down the hatches (Take at least one forward off) and keep ten men playing DEEP. Would that have been more effective ? I don't like Ferguson, or their supporters for all the reasons mentioned by others but you have to admire their approach on the field. Btw was Mourinho touting himself as the next Manager or what after the game ? "The best team lost". Made me smile

By the way, I still want them to beat the RS every time they play because I dislike them more.

The Red Shite hate them. My enemies enemy is my friend.

I used to like watching them play. I've been watching Everton since the 1960's and Utd always had entertaining teams and a good atmosphere at Old Trafford. However, both EFC and LFC regurlarly beat them and generally finished higher than them in the league. But who was the team who dominated the North West TV and newspapers? MUFC. And where were those TV and nespapers based? Manchester.

It used to rile me that no matter what happened at this end of the East Lancs Road they were getting all the attention. I think that's the root of the deep dislike that exists now.

If I think back to around 1970s and 80s there were EFC, LFC, Leeds Utd, Man Utd, Spurs, Arsenal who all had a realistic chance of winning the league. When you throw in the odd team like Ipswich under Bobby Robson and Derby County & Notts Forest under Brian Clough and Man City under Joe Mercer who could make a serious challenge then you could say there was open competition. Now it's tediously predictable.

I don't hate them, I hate the Premiership and Everton's complete lack of ability to deal with it.

Syd, and Ipswich, Leeds Utd, LFC, Spurs, Derby County & Notts Forest who have also not won the Prem nor have they had the ability to deal with it. It's not JUST Everton......

Nothing to do about jealousy of the manager as Jimmy says.

It's the whole Liverpool vs Manchester rivalry thing, as two major cities in the north west. I would also imagine it would be rivalry from the 80s when Everton were the best in England.

I mean that's why Liverpool hate Utd, for those same two reasons, except Liverpool have unfortunately been been at the top for longer than us, and so have Utd.

I'm not that keen on them, personally

I have not liked them since the Premier league started, mainly because they seem to have bought their way to the top. I cant believe that no side has deserved a penalty at OT in the last ten years and am sick of the one dimensional press coverage. They use the past as a lever to make people feel sorry for them and AF is the worst sport in history. Too many refs pander to them and they, like Chelsea get away with a lot of fouls, without recieving cards. Our players get cards for the most inoxious of challenges. It is not the money alone, its the attitude that really makes me hate them. (although I don't really hate as opposed to dislike immensely).

Steve Guy, Mourinho said he would be interested in managing in the premier league again. If the top two or three say no, why cant we tempt him?

Contrary to a belief stated above. Mancs do not hate scousers.
I work and matchfish with a fair few of them and they do not hate scousers, this hatred was perpetuated by the Redshite and stems from them being overtaken by the Mancs in footballing terms
This has then been turned into 'All scousers hate Mancs and visa versa. There are good and bad in every walk of life and don't let the bad blood the gobshites have fostered over the years draw you in.
The football songs are just that, songs, it's ok for kopites to sing Munich songs ala You Tube but woah betide they sing about scousers being on the dole ?
Ever come across them on holiday? The first thing most of them do is ask who you support, when they find it's the blues they are different people.

Dean. "If the top two or three say no, why cant we tempt him?"

In a four letter word. Bill.

As a kid in the late 50's and 60's all I would remember was no matter how well Everton did , Man Utd always were in the newspapers and public eyes, Munich , Busby Babes, European Cup at Wembley, Best ...., and I grew up filled with hatred fueled by peers, grown ups that they were a favoured team, and us scousers were downtrodden. Unfortunately history has shown us that the City of Manchester has developed and grown and prospered, whilst Liverpool went into the 70's, 80's, and possibly 90's with a chip on its shoulders, led by a bunch of militants which has got us nowhere, and our 2 teams suffer.

I left Liverpool with job move in early 70's and all I've found in 3 parts of UK I've lived in is a huge Man Utd following mainly due to the brand of football they play and of course by the success they've had. I do think they have always played good football, have always preferentially developed their own kids. The same cant be said for the current City and Chelsea set ups - which I both hate worse than Utd

Jimmy,

The prize goes to you for being the first to manage to change a completely unrelated topic into a Anti Moyes diatribe. Well done keep up the good work.

Not to mention Thatcher's "managed decline, Mike. Don't blame these fabled "militants" for everything, especially not Everton's fortunes.

Colin 874 - Ye of little faith!!!

Or more realistically, ye of past experience

Dave Lynch, what does "matchfish" mean? I have googled it and am no wiser. Sorry to go off topic Toffeewebbers, and please excuse my ignorance.

Bobby #862

Worryingly I don't think you are being ironic with your post. As someone who has lived in Salford for the last 15 years I can assure you the 'people' of Manchester do not hate Scousers. Most of my friends are United or City supporters and I have never had a single problem in all my time here.

Yes, there is a football rivalry thing and we take the piss out of each other. I actually watched the 09 semi final in a United pub although, when Jags slotted the penalty, I got up quietly walked out of the bar and went fucking mental in the car park.

It's just football and to dislike someone because of the city they come from is no different than disliking them because of their race or religion or sexual preference. It's just ignorant.

Yes it is Graham.

Mike #878 is spot on. In the late 50's and the 60's all we ever got at school was the blanket media coverage of the Busby babes and how English football was robbed of a golden generation. I am old enough now to get the horror of their fate in true perspective but those in grained hate thoughts have never left me. Maybe it was because in those days pre Shankly Liverpool were sod all so there was no point hating them - they weren't even in our division, happy days.

Sorry 888 was cut short. It is different Graham because no resident of Manchester has ever been enslaved, denied work or basic human rights, been blown up or imprisoned by the population of Merseyside, because of their geographical location.

Colin

Go on tell me more, I suspecting I can't wait

Sorry. You're needing more? Why?

Colin

Your knowledge of history is obviously greater than mine and I thought I might just give you a little more rope.

As another Manchester based Toffee I'd have to agree with Graham (887). Most of my pals here are United supporters and I've never had any grief from them other than the usual banter pre and post games etc.

As mentioned earlier, its only if I was of the RS extraction that the friendliness and banter with the Mancs would disappear. I've always been of the opinion that both ourselves and United have always shared a healthy dislike of LFC and long may it continue.

As for last night's game....I couldn't agree more with Roy Keane!

Should we draw United in the cup and Mirrales is sent off for a similar challenge on Nani then please disregard all of the above!

Fuck all to do with history Graham. You said, disliking someone because of where they live is the same as Racism, Sectarianism and Homophobia as "it's just ignorant".

I replied that it is not the same, as although ignorance plays a part in all forms of discrimination, to compare the plight of people who have suffered for many years due to their colour, nationality, religion or sexuality, to scousers "hating" mancs is......Frankly, fuckin' ridiculous.

Colin,

I'm getting your drift now. I didn't say that anyone had suffered in the same way , I was just pointing out the illogicality of disliking an individual based on where they were born. I suspect we are probably on the same side on this.

Loved it. They are not used to getting decisions like that and that why it hurt them so much. Yes if they play Liverpool, then I want them to win but against anyone else I take great pleasure in there defeat. Most of there supporters are glory hunters who nail their flat to a winning team and I've no respect for them. I've met many who are arigant and have exactly the same mindset as Liverpool supporters. There is little difference.

Old whiskey nose being so distraught that he couldn't speak to the press was priceless. We get decisions like that on a regular basis so now he knows how it feels. The panel on ITV had the rule book out and quoted a passage from the book; it's a sending off offence if a challenge is reckless or dangerous and intent dose not come into it. If that's true I'm surprised the sending off's in the West Ham game were overturned on appeal. Still who care's, it hurts all the more when they see it as a travesty of justice.

In sport, I'm a big fan of supporting your team and hating every other team they compete against. In European football it's a bit more grey than that as there's so many comps. In Italy I like Juve so hate the Milans, Napoli, Lazio (admire their treatment of Spuds though) etc. My only "soft spot" in the EPL is Arsenal because my Grandad supported them.

I hate Man Utd, but in the current two-horse race, I'd rather they won it than City. I fucking hate City.

Paul Ellam, "It's the same with Ferguson, he's a grumpy ol' swine but I actually think I will miss him when he's gone." I never thought about life after SAF. Love him or hate him, when he's gone, a part of British, European, and World football will be missing. He might be a villain, but would Batman have been half as good without the Joker? The Life of Brian without the Romans? WWII without Hitler?

I know it's only a wikipedia piece of info, but I find it interesting that The Battle of Everton Valley in 05 saw the firms from Everton and Liverpool team up against the Red Army.

As for the rivallry of the cities; I've never been to Liverpool. I've been to Manchester, and it's not a bad place. It was even better that I was there the night both clubs got booted out of Europe last season. Two of us sat in a pub having a curry and cheering very, very quietly.

I don't think they hate scouters per se. I think they just hate Liverpool. And their hatred of man utd just quite simply stems from the fact. That united are a far far more succesful and bigger global brand than them. If you go down over the years they've hated anyone who's more succesful than them at.the time us ( obviously ) arsenal Leeds forest and united to name a few. I can remember the 70s and ill tell you. They never mentioned united. It was like they didn't exist them bitter bastards think they've got a divine right to be succesful a bit like united now but they're not and it rankles I mean take the champions league final last season. They were willing Munich on so much. It was laughable. I've never seen so much bitterness or bile spew out when Chelsea won. I walked into work this morning and I've never seen so many happy smiling faces so I said to 4 of them what time is the homecoming on Friday. One of them said what do you mean. I replied oh I thought Liverpool had won the fucking thing the way yous are carrying on you sad fuckers. And they have the nerve to call us bitter cheeky bastards. But I've got to say I hope united continue to dominate because I love to see them red bastards wound up. Nothing gives me more pleasure.

Hard to answer but I really don't like them although doesn't compare with my dislike of the shite. I think it's because they cheating jammy arrogant manc bullies and have a distinct lack of class and morals stemming from that horrible man Ferguson - to sum up theyre scumbags. Their intimidation of fa, refs etc really annoys me and ferdinands reaction just sums them up - roy keane I admired a warrior nutter and will to win - ferdinand just a pretender and shithouse.

Strange I can't stand the mancs (by that I mean utd supporters) when I do t mind other mancs (by that I mean man city supporters). T

Having said that, person to person, how many fans would anyone really hate? I hate Stoke, and apparently their fans are a bit high and mighty when it comes to what their team gets away with. I was in the pub for the Reading game last week and when I first got in was sitting next to one of Toronto's two Stoke supporters. Both English, and both good fellas. Had a great morning talking shit with them.

Reasons to hate Man Utd? Their over the top anti-Scouse chanting. Taking Rooney off us and United fans rubbing our nose in it, and most of all, for me anyway, stopping us from doing the treble in 1985 with 10 men. (and United were supported by the Kopites that day, let's not forget, gleefully lapped up our defeat and they have the cheek to call us 'Manc lovers')

However, I dislike the deluded Anfield mob and Man City far, far more.

And having worked with quite a few United fans over the years, I found them a lot less arrogant than the self-styled 'best fans in the land' we are lumbered with in our City.

I wanted United to win last night simply because I wanted them to have as less interest in the FA Cup as possible.

When we were great we hated them and they hated us, now they don't hate us as we are not a threat, little nice Everton who hate who we do and we have grown to like them ( well some have) because they wind the shite up, in truth our relationship with them has gone nice because of us being crap and we both hate the shite,the day we become a threat again the patronising bollocks will stop and the dislike will return.

I don't know about the Manc/Scouser thing but it sounds like your average tribalism with bile thrown because football has to have bile doesn't it?

Generally they're probably disliked because they're big and successful which is a compliment to them in many ways.

We all like to see new clubs winning things but since Chelsea and City have come and bucked the trend I'd prefer United than either of those two.

Remember those days in the 80s of red rose radio night time with alan beswick phone in and the scouse/Manc arguments which ended with him banning scousers, used to be knackered for school listening to the fun and games.

Its simple. The more trophies they win. The harder it is for Everton to catch and therefore be the greatest english team.

Jimmy #839. Cracking response and so typical of your normal anti Moyes bollox.

Steve Guy #864. I think you suffering footy blindness – when Man Utd went down to 10 men Madrid did what the fuck they wanted, which included scoring two goals, if they had needed three or four goals then that's what we would have seen.

As for Everton's dislike for Man Utd – history will give you all the information you will need. If you have followed the blues to away games then you will know about all the shite that blue fans have had to suffer from those Manc twats during the 70s, 80s and 90s. Travelling to Old Trafford was one of worst away games I have been too – you went with Blues, stuck together, did not drink and usually battered your way home.

I am also sure that many on here are fully aware that RS fans and Blues would be waiting for Manc fans to enter Liverpool regardless of who Man Utd were playing. Early kickoffs, roads closed, pubs closed, police by truck load and the ParkEnd looking like a war zone – personally I'm glad to see the back of those days but history will show that there was no love lost between City, United, the RS or the Blues.

Wembley 85. A bunch of about 30 of them got on a bus me and three mates were going to the game on. And beat the shit out of us. Can't say I've ever had much empathy with them since to be honest!

They're not as bad as the redshite though obviously.

Jimmy – Just have a look at how much Fergie spent back in the 80s on the likes of Webb, Phelan, Hughes, Wallace, Pallister and many others.

If you think he built his success on playing kids then you are deluded. He didn't play the kids until he had already won 2 League titles.

Personally, I hate Man Utd due to the arsehole, loud-mouth, glory hunting twats who know nothing about football and even less about being a REAL fan.

I'm glad they got beat last night and I cheered loudly when Nani got sent off. And louder when Madrid scored.

I hope Man Utd get relegated and eventually cease to exist.

Brian Hill #885.

Matchfishing is...... a competition where anglers compete against others to win "the match."

Matchfishing, as opposed to leisure fishing etc...

Yeah Paul (923) I also remember listening to that every night before school, very funny it was too! Wonder what happened to Beswick?

It's Liverpool, Chelsea and Man City in that order that I despise.

Graham (887)

My post was knocked out fast, overly catergorical and I do not think "the people", ie: all, of Mancunians hate Scousers. I am aware it takes all sorts to make a world and that there will be many Mancunians who either couldnt give a shit about football, all that regionalist nonsense or are just sound people in general. Was working abroad recently and met a Man City fan who was a great fella.

However.......

The "ignorance " you speak about is adequately exemplified by the 3000 Manc muppets in the Bullens who turn up and spend a good portion of the match disparaging this city and its citizens. Certainly doesnt seem to be "just football" to that bunch.

I have been on the receiving end of "Scouse this.....Scouse that" a few times out in Manchester. The most memorable being when I went to see I Am Kloot at the Lowry. United had a Champions League game that night.........

Upon asking a woman and her fella for a light, I was asked, "Why are you here?" Before she then began to ramble about how nobody from Manchester felt the need to go to Liverpool to do anything etc etc blah blah, bullshit bullshit.

I enquired if she felt the same about the 20-30,000 out of towners from different parts of the country who filled their ground every week, but she didnt seem to have a satisfactory reponse.

I know lads who are secondary school PE teachers, not from the area but have moved up and studied here, and when they take their teams to Manchester they cannot believe the bile.

I just feel that "they" have the ability to "bring it", the hate that is, a little more than we do. And I dislike that because I think its fucking pathetic and nothing to do with what life is about. On both sides of the equation.

And for your information I am a prejudice free zone, thanks.

My reasons, regarding United, are nothing to do with blind irrationality, ignorance or wider prejudice as you insinuate.

I myself will talk to anyone from anywhere. One of the most interesting and joyful tings in life is meting people from different places, perspectives etc.

I never used to have a problem with United. However the way things have developed, with the hardcore Scouse baiting conduct of their fans, press, Ferguson, these days I cant stand them. And by that mean the footballing institution that is Manchester United and the shit that goes with it.

In short, I've just had enough of them.

I hope your blissed out existence in Manchester continues.

He was a proper twat, typical anti-scouse fucker you get when travelling, can never forget those lines after some one had called.

"Hello Alan, you fat Manc pr..........brrrrrrrr
"Scouse cretin"

Man Utd V Liverpool, WHO WOULD YOU WANT TO WIN?

Any decent Blue would pick the Mancs. End of.

I hate the bastards, almost on a par with the RS. They are shitcunts to a man. Rafael? Van Nistelcheat? Roy Keane? Playing infinite injury time to make sure they won the inaugural PL in 93. SAF chiselling decision after decision out of pissweak officials. Taking Rooney and giving us... Phil Neville!

The legions of know nothing fuckwits who claim OT as theirs (the "prawn sandwich" brigade). Devaluing the cup by not entering it. Giving us Ronaldo. The luck the fuckers get – the RS have nothing on the Mancs. Trailing 1-0 in a CL final with minutes left and winning it in normal time???

They don't even play great football. Wenger's Arsenal were superior, when they were at their best. Keegan's Newcastle burned and crashed and they were wonderful to watch.

For giving us Becks, that "complete midfielder" Scholes (who can't fucken tackle), for the ancient ancient Ryan Giggs... I fucken hate them.

I admire Arsenal, I didn't even mind Jack Walker's Blackburn.... Chelsea I dislike but Red Roman started the money revolution we see now. Man City play in blue so they can't be all bad.

But the RS and ManUre.... when they play each other, I hope they both somehow lose.

My dislike of Man Utd is totally irrational. I liked Best, Charlton, Law in fact that whole team individually but hated them collectively. I admire Ferguson though I believe he is an arrogant, graceless man. I like some of their current players but not the team.

So many of my friends and enemies support them that I suspect that my dislike lies there. They are graceless losers and patronising winners. Still it doesn't compare with my loathing of Liverpool FC. If they were playing a team of Nazis, it would be tempting not to secretly root for the team in the black shirts.

Bobby

There are plenty of dickheads in Manchester but, for that matter, there are plenty of dickheads in Liverpool. If you meet someone who wants to judge you based on your city of origin then feel a bit sorry for them and move on.

Supporting your football team for most of us is just a little bit of old-fashioned tribalism which is embedded into all our DNA. I straddle both sides of this particular divide; I have good friends in Manchester and Liverpool and, believe me, we are the same people........ Unlike those twats in Leeds!

United fans are, by en large, patronising towards us. Except on match days when they pour forth their anti-scouse venom, they tend to admire Moyes, our valiant efforts etc etc. The reason for this is very simple... we are not a threat to them. Indeed they can usually look forward to getting 4 points a season from us. Liverpool has challenged them, to a limited extent over the last few years and so they hate them.

The attitude of the Mancs towards us during the eighties however was totally different. I was teaching in Salford at the time... challenging to say the least!

I'm a totally decent Blue and I ALWAYS want a Liverpool city club to finish above the Mancs.

They looked up at us for years and spent 27 years waiting for a title win but that is NEVER mentioned by the media.

I really enjoyed the days when Everton and Liverpool towered over Manchester and London clubs. It was much better when scousers got on and showed the rest of the footbasll world how supporters should behave.... without Hatred which is self destructive.

If you have ever been on the receiving end of gloating from a United fan, I think you'll enjoy nights like last night privately. Winning with style, class and grace seems an alien concept for their fans and manager. Their success makes them worst, not better.

Reminders that we are skint, that they are top of the tree, and that they can sign any of our players at will stick in my throat. I have been on the receiving end of it a fair bit. I say nothing on nights like last night, or if we beat them (admittedly at home), or if we spanner up their league season like last years 4-4. I enjoy their defeats. It gives me a little smile that the football gods don't approve.

Prior to the '85 FA Cup Final, I never really cared one way or the other about Manure. I wanted them to loose for the next couple of years after that, then got over it.

However, come the '90s, they dominated the league to such an extent that it got boring and predictable – 6 titles in 8 years was it? The league has never really recovered. Then add in the pampering by the press, preferential treatment by refs, the whole Beckham circus, the Neville brothers, Roy Keane, Horse-face, Rio Ferdinand etc...

In fact, what's there not to hate?

Bloody hell, Trevor, you're not talking about the 80s, are you? Because all's I remember was going to Old Trafford and 90% of the away end would be singing songs about the woollies fire and slippy runways many of them in cricket hats with Munich 58 stitched into the front. The following day, you would see the Shite away to York in the cup with all sorts of banners ranging from "Atkinson's got AIDS" to "Duncan Edwards" etc.

If you're talking about the 60s, fair enough... but if it's the period I said there was no teaching people about how to behave minus one Milk Cup Final as the derbies too still had regular trouble.

The T-shirt with 'Big Ron, from Old Swan, signing on' always made me laugh.

As for last night, if a RM player had got just a yellow for that Nani challenge SAF would have been spitting feathers. The game had 2-2 aggregate after 90 minutes with a technically superior RM nickiing it in extra time written all over it.

As for Moyes ever taking the Old Trafford seat, Mourinho's post-match comment were a masterclass in a job application.

Brian @885 .

Google ' Match Fishing' that will answer your question sir.

Like others who have already commented my dislike (hatred is much too strong a word for how I feel towards them) is based on them being the 'story' when they were vastly inferior to us.

Also agree that they would dislike us more if they considered us to be a threat.

I guess you can admire their ability to win things but I have never been a fan of the way they play, unlike some of the recent Arsenal teams, and the over-rating of the likes of Beckham really got on my nerves as well.

It may be petty but I don't think I will ever stop feeling a little happier whenever they are brought down a peg or two.

I wouldn't say I hate any club, as that sounds irrational and childish. But I have a strong dislike for teams like Manchester United. United are a brand, not a football club/

I'm glad that they are winning titles over City and Chelsea but I really couldn't care for them at all.

They get away with decisions every week and when injustices (like last night) happen, all I can do is laugh. Their manager who I respect, as a manager, is a joke of a person. Last night proved that when things don't go their way for once then they will moan beyond anything I've ever seen before.

I do also think there is a media bias towards them as well, again last night proved that, BBC blaming the ref for their loss yet didn't comment on their performance or how their tactics fell apart after an extremely good 1st half.

They've got huge power, too much in my opinion. If that happened to us last night at Goodison, nothing would've been made of it at all. They may be the biggest club in the world but they don't act like it or give much respect back.

Only interested in Everton, anyone else winning stuff only registers if they play scintillating football (Brazil '70, Barca (Messi), Real Madrid (Zidane) etc.)

Huge underdogs defying the odds are worthy – Sunderland v Leeds, Wimbledon v Liverpool (hahaha), Swansea's inspirational story.

Beyond that, clubs from our division are competitors and them winning trophies knocks our glorious history down a peg so they can fuck right off.

As for Man Utd, they're Liverpool of old with more tourists a better business strategy and less shame in cherry-picking from the rest of the division – WHAT'S TO LIKE?

Chris 853 — You've pretty much said everything I said to my mate who's a United fan, he actually agreed with most of what I said!

It's really nice to see Man Utd get a taste of their own medicine, but they really are sore losers, probably the worst I've ever seen.

I too agree with Dave Roberts. Why is there so much mindless dislike aimed at Man Utd? I can think of NO reason why Blues should feel this way; we have always seemed to have a good inter-club relationship.

Let the bigotted hatred come from the red half of the city, while we remain above such trivial mindlessness

What an interesting thread. Me, I hate Man Utd and I hate Liverpool, the only hing I hate more than the clubs are their fans. Got trusted mates who support either, because first and foremost they are mates.

I love the games between them, virtually the only games of the season when I don't know who I want to win. Every other game I know, it is simple: What is in the interests of Everton Football Club?

I enjoy the hatred of the fans, I wish everything goes wrong when they play each other, hope there is crowd trouble, sendings off and anything bad – except player injuries, where I draw a line at.

Why? Love Everton, which leads to the feelings towards LFC and I grew up in Sale, South Manchester, and went to school where I got Man Utd this and that rammed down my throat, year-in, year-out.

I hate the both, equally, and wish them the worst of luck. Maybe I am a Bitter Blue, but do you know what? I really do not care!

The strange thing about Man Utd is the very sad fact that the tragic Munich air disaster was the making of the Man Utd super club that we see today. Yes, they had a great team which probably would have won a couple of League Championships and maybe an FA Cup. Other clubs had had great teams that had done this but these clubs never developed into a Man Utd. It was the tragedy of Munich that was the difference.

The press favoured them to a ridiculous extent; other football supporters had them as their second favourite team – they were the first team in the country to have supporters that did not belong to there native city. The other teams in this country lent them players to complete there remaining games that year. It's true that Busby built another great team but other managers had also done this (Clough for one), the difference is their team was not tragically wiped out.

So there you have it, the Manchester United that you see before you today is only there because of a great tragedy. Nobody ever acknowledges this, of course, the fact that success was built on tragedy. They make out that the success came despite the tragedy. Pop stars who died young are also given an aura of greatness. It's something in the human psyche which equates death in this way. Still, I just love it when the arrogantly bastards get stuffed!

Steve, spot on.

I don't know, Steve. Man Utd is what it is because of a tragedy in the 1950s? As far as the press, perhaps a "benefit of the doubt due to Munich". But, what 35, years later when Man Utd won the league? Kind of a stretch.

What little I've read of Man Utd in the early 90s, what stands out is all the calls for Fergie's head.

Stockport County League Cup 1976.

We won 1-0 with the great Bob Latchford scoring the winner. Any blues who were there will understand!!!

Syd Morton @ 868

Good post Syd.

I would like to add that, while LFC swept all before them in the 70s and we did our thing in the 80s, we were in that elite of World/European teams. Man Utd – while we were doing the business on the pitch – were doing it off the pitch and marketing themselves as the world's greatest club, it worked didn't it?

They're cheeky sods!

Dave, Man Utd have won the Champions League more times than the RS.

It's the old European Cup that the RS have won more times.

I hate Man Utd less than the Redshite. I want them to win the league and also wanted them to win the CL. The redshites are simply jealous of Manure and I can't associate myself to redshite attitudes...

True Eric but the Redshite still keep flashing those 5 fingers at me when they are losing an argument!

I was desperately hoping Man Utd would win in the week. Because if we are to have a realistic chance of lifting the FA Cup, we need teams like Man Utd to be too busy focussing on a bigger pot of glory.

I think we will get to the semi or final, but I can't see us beating Man City or Man Utd in a final if they desperately want it too.

Whiteside ruined our Triple. That is why.

Stu, I think we ruined our own chances of a Triple by going on the piss after Rotterdam instead of remaining focused on the FA Cup Final.

It's very simple, I always prefer it if Liverpool lose, twice a year I want United to win, four times a year Chelsea, six times City and eight times Arsenal. You can work out why without getting too involved in Transactional Analysis!

United, just another club who Everton have to beat when we play them, unlike our friends from the Dark Side. I don't like the way we have been marginalised by both Utd and RS as they claim the matches between them both are the biggest games in the country. I also think the two clubs are closer than many would have us believe, where was the united front when MUFC and Everton were banned from Europe?

I am also uncomfortable with Everton FC being so pally with United, they are rivals, will always be rivals and will never - unless a particular situation arises such as Munich - do each other favours when it comes to their own interests.

The only club I really want to see fail are the Dark Side, last night I watched a 15 minute highlights package of the 2001 Derby at Goodison - McCallister last minute winner - and all the usual situations were there for all to see. Carragher handball in the area - not given, Biscan booked for striking an opponent - should have been a red - then a second booking for the same player - should have been a straight red - I don't know how I had forgotten so much from an incident packed match but the outcome was the usual gut-wrenching defeat due to poor officialdom by Jeff Winter and whingeing moaning reds getting the better of us.

I personally hate Man Utd. I hate the arrogance of Fergie his berating of referees and his refusal to speak to the press. I hate the diving cheating players they have: Rooney, Young and Nani, to mention a few. I hate the fact Moyes seems intimidated by them and rolls over. I hate the fact we take all their ageing crocked injury-prone elderly players and we send them our best. I just hate them....

All clubs are rivals, it's only heightened by the RS being rivals in our own city and MUFC being rivals from a "local" city that would compare and measure itself against us. The rivalry is mostly felt by the fans of course, it matters to us more if we win, or they lose.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying watching another team, I've watched a few non-league teams play but, if we drew them in the FA Cup 3rd round, I'd still want Everton to hammer them!

I enjoyed watching the Champions League game the other night, but I couldn't give two hoots how the fans felt as Nani got sent off.

They are the bad guys: it's as simple as that for me. Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal and of course the other lot are the bad guys of the piece and we are the good guys.

For years and years, we have now played second fiddle to clubs like Man Utd and I hate them for it. Yes, they are better than us but they get the rub of the green in every sense. They have had cheats playing for them for years, refs holding their hands, a petulant child of a manager and they hate us. So why would I not hate them?

Look at the players they've had: Neville, Ronaldo, Rooney, Scholes, Schmeichel, Ferdinand, Yorke, Evra to name just a few of the loathsome characters they've had over the years. (I would have included Hughes but given his short spell with us he has redeemed himself a bit.)

Like many I have never had a problem with Man Utd. Can still remember a fantastic 3-3 draw midweek at Goodison in mid-60s as one of the best/most exciting games ever.

I watched the Real Madrid games not minding who won, just hoping it would be close. Red card was ridiculous - not even a foul. Rooney should have started irrespective of defensive tactics. Too influential to leave out of any game.

No, my hatred has always been reserved for the redshite (even when they were in the old 2nd Division). Over the years I have added Chelski and Man City to the list of teams I like to see lose. Aston Villa and Newcastle are also on the list, to which QPR have been added this season.

I only support one English team in Europe! However I do enjoy watching Man Utd in European games, always worth watching.

This season I reckon that 2 of the best teams in Europe are from the German Bundesliga - Bayern Munich and Borussia Dormund. Living in Central Europe I was able to watch their recent Cup-tie - a great game. I expect Bayern to comprehensively finish off Arsenal next week.

I've always disliked Man Utd much more than any other team, I even cheer on Liverpool when they meet. I think this comes down to where I live.

Being from the Lancaster area most of the footie fans I know tend to follow either Preston, Blackburn, Morecambe, Man City or Everton. There are quite a lot of Liverpool fans but nowhere near as many as there are Man Utd fans.

Pretty much every Monday morning since I was 12 I've had to put up with smug Man Utd fans gobbing off about how great they are despite the fact the closest they have ever been to Old Trafford is when they play as Man Utd on the X-Box.

Add the fact they took Rooney and the fact that I am insanely jealous of all their success. Giggs, Rio, Fergie, Eamon Holmes, that smug prick off Cold Feet! I really can't stand any of them. I like Scholes but that's about it.

How can any Evertonian cheer on Liverpool when they play Man Utd!!!!

David #081

James (#999),

The point is that Man Utd were already a mega-club by the 90s. That happened in the 60s after the disaster.

What many younger fans probably do not know is that, until Munich, Man Utd were the poor relations in Manchester. I visited Old Trafford with my dad when I was kid, two or three years after Munich. Everton were playing them and I remember being quite shocked by the standard of the ground: it was a dump.

I remember it being open to the elements at one end and I'm not sure possibly the other also and we were stood on cinders that they had put done on the terrace in the paddock.

Many of the newspapers at the time were based in Manchester and they could do no wrong after Munich. All through the 60s, they continued to receive positive press and the fan base grew at a remarkable rate from all over the country.

That team that was almost wiped out at Munich was the first decent team they had. That was one of the attractions of them at the time: poor little Manchester United, wasn't it shocking that happened to them? As tragic as it was for the players who died and their friends and relatives, it was the making of the Manchester United that you see today.

Steve (088) - Good stuff. I get it now. Thanks.

We gave them Rooney... they sent us Phil Neville — that's enough for me.

Some great responses on here to which I thought might have been an OP which might have been rejected as its connection to Everton was rather tenuous. Much that I agree with, some I don't but the posts which grabbed my attention most were Steve Edwards's, who reminded me that I too am old enough to remember when Manchester United were a much smaller club than us and when Goodison put Old Trafford to shame for the shed that it was.

It was indeed the Munich disaster that built upon the much exaggerated (imo) Busby Babes phenomenon and to a very large extent made Manchester United the club it is today. From that moment on, given that all the northern sports journos were based in Manchester (especially that self-confessed Manure fan, Frank McGhee of the Daily Mirror), there was only ever one club – no matter how bad they were performing – who were going to fill the footy gossip pages! I remember the sense of – and the press's inducement to – national mourning when they went down in (was it) 1971? It was almost as if the Queen had died.

However, I love beating them and I love them beating the redshite. But I certainly can't say that I hate them. Can't say much more than that really!

Just a chance for Everton and Liverpool fans to temporarily put their own rivalry aside.

Last year I was 70,so I seen a lot of teams facing Everton,and that's all they were,other teams,man u,R.S.etc.but over the last 10 years or so according to my Red mates and my Red family Man U has become my second team only through their stupid hatred.

Without the existence of Man Utd I dread to think of the league titles LFC would have won?
Say no more!!

As a club United treated us with respect when they took Rooney off us. Unlike the classless way Man City behaved during the Lescott saga.

LFC may have won a single title more without MUFC being in existence. The rest of the PL titles would have been shared amongst Arsenal and Chelsea. The myth continues, they have had only one serious pop at the title since the PL began, but to some sections of the media you would think that they are always in the mix for the race to be champions. Even this season their manager said he was looking for 2nd place in the league, they talk a good game and occasionally play a good game but to consider them to be regular title contenders is a fallacy fed by their adoring media.

The numbhead Kopites who wanted Real Madrid to win might think otherwise when they find out, if Madrid win the Champions League, it will be there 10th time... makes the little kopites' 5 look silly doesn't it?

To all those making comments such as, "They are Mancs, they hate us Scousers, and we hate them, end of." — Come on, grow up.

Most Mancs don't hate scousers and most scousers don't hate Mancs. Most Mancs and scousers are pretty much the same and like exactly the same things and get on fine together. Take football out of it and all is hunky dory.

Yes, I dislike Man Utd but I could still sit and watch a game sitting next to a Man Utd fan.

Some considered responses on here, and some, well, entertaining ones!

I agree broadly with Alan McGuffog's post. They don't mind us as we're not a threat to them. It's the same with a lot of other teams I find – it's patronising at best to get the "plucky little Everton" tag, but it's what we've been reduced to by our board and a complicit fanbase.

It's a fact of human nature and supporting any sporting team, the teams at the top are there to be shot at (figuratively), along with their fans. Would be nice to be told "we can't stand you" again, rather than the usual "Ooh, can be quite tough to play at Goodison" – don't even get that so much these days!

Matt 332 "complicit fan base"...what do you mean by that? Complicit in not agreeing with your views (or others expressed on here) in their entirety?

Patronising indeed.

Noel (#083),

I can't help it. I know logically as an Everton fan I should hate Liverpool above all else but it's Man United that get my goat more than any other team. A lot of my mates are Liverpool fans and they are generally pretty respectful regarding Everton so that may be another reason why.

The anti-scouse chanting they do on a regular basis – despite one of their best players being scouse.

The fact is most of their fans are fair-weather cunts who would get fucking lost if they went near Manchester.

The complete and utter bias they see everything with (like Liverpool fans) that they think every fucking decision should go their way and see no reason why there should ever be a red card against them at Old Trafford or – god forbid – a penalty given.

The fact everyone in the media has their heads so fucking far up Ferguson's alcoholic wanker hole and refuse to say anything bad about him in case he destroys their career. Same with referees who all bend to his whim out of fear.

Also the way their fans get angry about other clubs spending their way to the top when Man Utd have been splashing the big bucks for donkeys like Rio Ferdinand – £30mill AGES AGO.

Other than that, off the top of my head, I suppose they don't really bother me...

The other thing as well: discussing that red card as if it was the wrong decision

The Champions League isn't the Premier League — you don't get away with ninja kicks. You know it's going to be a foul even if you show studs. It was the right call in accordance with how the Champions League is NORMALLY refereed.

People are only peeved because they are looking at it through "English" eyes, no-one would blink in an eye in other European countries if that decision earnt someone a red card... but no, because it's Man Utd, the furore about it was pathetic — and that's another reason why I hate them.

Steve #324, I should have perhaps prefaced my post as stating that it is my opinion, you know, this being a fans forum and all.

But, in my opinion, I think this board have failed on multiple accounts since day 1. Many other clubs would've had serious discontent. However (IMHO) this board played a blinder with the divisive Kirkby proposal (completely getting away scot free with the Kings Waterfront debacle) and thus (IMHO) pitting fan against fan ensure there'll always be entrenched support as in these heady days of the Internet warrior, no-one will admit to a mistake.

I'd just got to double digits age-wise when Howard Kendall became our manager. And to think, I can recall the leaflet campaign to get rid of him in the 82-83 season. Now you'll point to the fact that he turned it around, my point is at least people then were quick to point out that what we were being subjected to wasn't ok.

By accepting our lot in the Premier League, yes, I think fans are complicit. But times have changed.