Could derby win be clincher?

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David Moyes is an honourable man. When he tells us that he will make his decision on whether to stay or go at the season's end... and not before, I believe him.

But there is one event which, were it to happen, would, I think, escalate that decision by several weeks. And that, my friends, is a victory in the Anfield derby game on 4th May! Thus, the very future of this great club may be riding on the outcome of a single game.

Pressure, what pressure?

Richard Dodd, Freshfield     Posted 02/04/2013 at 14:35:16

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Nev Renshaw
446 Posted 02/04/2013 at 16:41:42
Let's just hope we don't face this game like rabbits caught in the headlights and give it a bit of a fight this time. All too often we just don't turn up at this fixture. COYB.
Patrick Murphy
450 Posted 02/04/2013 at 16:47:56
If the game at Anfield is only being played for local pride it won't have much impact one way or the other, but if the game has CL/European qualification riding on it, it will be an immense day. But the other 5 games we play before then will determine how much it means... and so, by the time we go across the park, we should either be used to winning important matches or be as flat as a pancake because we hadn't managed to gain the required number of points.

Let's not get distracted by the other lot and concentrate on the next game and then each game as it comes — that's plenty enough to keep my interest and attention, I don't need to worry about the other lot until kick-off time on the day in question.

Peter Laing
452 Posted 02/04/2013 at 16:56:46
Get Duncan in the dressing room before kick-off, show all of the antics of Suarez and the press cuttings about how much Gerrard and Carragher will be relishing the game, instill some self-belief a bit of chest beating and some much needed pride, a repeat of last season will not be tolerated.
Tony Marsh
454 Posted 02/04/2013 at 16:57:47
We won't win at Anfield – especially if it's important in terms of League placings.

Moyes doesn't have a Big Game mentality. Moyes is a choker. Moyes can't beat the Shite away from home. I think it's about 3 wins from 20 odd in Derby games, all at Goodison Park. Even Walter Smith won at Anfield and that just about says it all.

Roll Over and Die before Fight and Try — that is the Moyes Derby Day Motto.

Franny Porter
464 Posted 02/04/2013 at 17:40:15
What he ^ said.....
Phil Walling
466 Posted 02/04/2013 at 17:36:56
Conversely, if he fails-as he will-to pull off a win,then your honourable man should do the honourable thing and resign. It should have proved to him that he is just incapable of planning the one win that means so much to all Evertonians.A win at our original home,Anfield.
Paul David
467 Posted 02/04/2013 at 17:34:46
Richard

Moyes is honourable and you believe him?

Didn't he also say he would make a decision in January?

The man is stalling, waiting to see if anyone else comes knocking for his services. He won't sign a contract after the Derby, in June when that phone call hasn't materialised he will sign a new contract and tell us he was going to all along.

Patrick Murphy
471 Posted 02/04/2013 at 17:41:36
Tony,

Is that why we get the Anny Road (Roll Over and Die), we have to be FAT, my missus is FAT and she tries and fights ...

Ouch! sorry luv! Ow!! Shopping! OK Luv!


Ged Simpson
484 Posted 02/04/2013 at 18:37:28
Paul D - I think he is trying to twist BK's arm. After all BK would be owner of s Chamionship side without Moyes.

But problem is there is little point in twisting arm of someone if they don't have the money

Joe McMahon
488 Posted 02/04/2013 at 18:53:19
Richard - "David Moyes is an honourable man"? Are you sure? As has already been said, he keeps moving the goal posts as to whether he signs or not - January, CL Spot etc take your choice. Of course he is staying, he has always been staying, no one else wants him, Spurs didn't (the media said they did) Even Sunderland didn't want him. You talk about the Anfield derby, well when he signs this damn contract (he will) he will become the longest serving Everton manager, and one who hasn't won one single game at Anfield or Old Trafford. 4 million a year, honourable? taking the piss more like.
Denis Richardson
496 Posted 02/04/2013 at 19:03:50
Ged, the last time Everton were relegated was 1951, why exactly would BK be the owner of a championship side without Moyes?

He steadied the ship when he first came and we all thank him but let's not forget that every other manager for half a century before Moyes avoided the drop, so it's a little extreme to say we would no longer be in the top flight were it not for Moyes.

May as well say had he been given a bit more money we would have won the Champions League!

Graham Mockford
499 Posted 02/04/2013 at 19:15:17
Just something to lighten the mood for those that haven't seen it

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/quiz/2013/apr/02/brendan-rodgers-david-brent-quotes-quiz
Ross Edwards
500 Posted 02/04/2013 at 19:20:21
Richard,

Before you get too excited, what is Moyes's record at Anfield in 11 years?

Phil Walling
503 Posted 02/04/2013 at 17:43:32
I am still being assured `by those who know` that Moyes wants `a one year roll-over contract` which would give him the scope to move to any club prepared to pay Everton the equivalent of 12 months` salary for his services at any time.

Bill is said to be playing hardball!

Richard Dodd
506 Posted 02/04/2013 at 19:31:21
I can see some sense in that arrangement, Wally. Because if any new owner wanted rid, it would only cost a year's salary in compensation.

Get it signed, I say!

Paul David
512 Posted 02/04/2013 at 19:40:49
It's unacceptable with or without new owners. If it is true then Moyes is saying 'If and when a club comes calling i'm off but in the mean time i'll use your club to keep myself in the shop window'.
Phil Walling
518 Posted 02/04/2013 at 19:27:15
If he`s going to stay,I`d be happier knowing it might be only for a year than another lifetime!
Andy Crooks
532 Posted 02/04/2013 at 20:17:57
Richard, if the future of our club ever comes to rest on one game I'm not sure that I'd want David Moyes involved.
Ross Edwards
537 Posted 02/04/2013 at 20:29:56
Richard
Be honest, if Moyes turned around tomorrow and said he was not signing a new deal, who would you want as manager?
Tony Cheek
549 Posted 02/04/2013 at 20:50:12
Have to agree with Tony here. But I feel it's not just Moyes. Who suffers from "big match mentality". I think several of our players go in their shells when it really matters. Distin and Baines are two who will not deliver in that game. Distin is shit scared of Suarez and has shown it on a couple of occasions.

The RS will go hammer and tongs to win that game. Its not that they are better because they are not, it's just all about attitude. I am not normally a pessimistic sort when it comes to our games and It's strange, because I can see us winning any other game, except that one. I just know that we will bottle it, with Moyes leading the way.

Patrick Murphy
552 Posted 02/04/2013 at 21:02:59
I think this rollover contract has already been seen in action, Anfield in March and Wembley in April last year followed by Wigan last month, no more rollovers please. He either signs for a full-term or he goes its pretty simple really.
James Stewart
633 Posted 03/04/2013 at 01:25:19
Pains me but I have to agree with @454. Practically every big game with something riding on it and Moyes reverts to type and chokes. FA Cup Semi-Final last year a perfect example. We have consistently come off worse against the poorest RS team in years.
Jason Lam
637 Posted 03/04/2013 at 03:02:33
The most we can hope for is a draw. To Moyes it's an inconvenience but for Di Canio is 4000 games. You tell me who's head is screwed on properly.
Dave Long
641 Posted 03/04/2013 at 04:53:28
We need the spirit of sharp, sheedy and ratcliffe to show the way. We need an almighty win after last seasons humiliations. You reading this David?
Eric Myles
642 Posted 03/04/2013 at 06:01:21
Paul #512, all he's doing is honouring the terms of his contract, otherwise hemay be laible to be sued for Breach of Contract.
Gavin Ramejkis
648 Posted 03/04/2013 at 07:25:35
After 11 years of nothing at Mordor and some truly humiliating capitulations I fully expect a loss and one of his trademark lip service standard texts to be read out at the post match interview, chokes in big games, always has, always will.
Sam Hoare
654 Posted 03/04/2013 at 08:16:21
Gavin, if you think the last 11 years have been bad I hate to see what you will think if things ever do actually go really badly. Go and speak to some Leeds or Portsmouth fans.

Though I agree about the Derby, we will probably lose.

Kieran Fitzgerald
660 Posted 03/04/2013 at 09:00:56
Tony Cheek, the lack of a winning attitude is Moyes's biggest failing.
Rob Keys
682 Posted 03/04/2013 at 11:18:38
Fellas,

Yes, Moyes has a dreadful record against Liverpool. But please tell, who besides Royle has got a good record against Liverpool?Nobody. Not even Kendall.

We won @ Anfield in 1984 after how many years? 13? Kendall lost 2 cup finals (84 milk cup and FA cup) in 84 and 85. Harvey lost 1 FA cup final to them in 89.

Yes, we won the Charity Shield in 86 by beating them. But even in our 87 Championship winning season, we didn't best them. (Dave Long, even the spirit of Ratcliffe, Sheedy & Sharp couldn't do that much more.)

Of course, it's true none of them above have got 11 years at it like Moyes. For that, Moyes looks worst off. But an Everton manager losing to Liverpool is not an anomaly. It's the norm. Joe Royle is the exception.

Gavin Ramejkis
693 Posted 03/04/2013 at 13:19:13
Sam I don't buy into the unknown being bad, it's just and only just unknown — it could be bad, it could be great. Asking another set of fans isn't going to foretell what is going to happen; different clubs, different times. Sadly, predictability and repeating mistakes are an unwanted trait in these games — even after 11 years of trying.
Chris Keightley
716 Posted 03/04/2013 at 15:34:57
Think we will beat them to be honest, had Mirallas stayed on the pitch the full 90 earlier in the season then they would have got beat - him, coleman, fellani, baines, pienaar, and ossie, on top of their game with distin and Jags having solid games and I truely believe we will nick it, as I also believe we will beat spurs sunday!! not drank or taken any drugs either !!!!
Colin Wainwright
727 Posted 03/04/2013 at 16:43:08
I see what you are saying Rob but Kendall was up against a great RS side. For the past three or four years Moyes has been up against a joke of a club. We should be having more success against them.
Jimmy Kelly
736 Posted 03/04/2013 at 17:11:41
Only a joke of a club in comparison to back then though Colin, not in real terms (ie, they have been above/very close to us in the league, have been able to call on £100m worth of subs etc).

I agree completely that it's a poor record and obviously for us fans we'd love to beat Liverpool every time we played them but I just don't get the big hang up about his record at certain clubs. If we'd won at Anfield and Old Trafford 2 or 3 times each but lost the record we have against the likes of Sunderland, Fulham, Man City etc would that make him a better manager somehow? I don't think so personally.

Poor records are part of football, for all clubs and all managers. You could look at the fact that Moyes broke hoodoos at Elland Road and White Hart Lane, that his record at home to Man Utd is better than most, that home to the clubs mentioned above it is almost faultless and that it was a fair few years before he joined that we had last won at Old Trafford or Arsenal.

Similarly the 'big game choker' is something that gets redefined to suit the argument (Wigan is now used as an example of big game choking by many, although the semi-final always appears to have been the cut off previously - clearly believing that a QF was a big game would have meant he hadn't choked in his previous 3 and that just wouldn't do).

Patrick Murphy
740 Posted 03/04/2013 at 17:38:36
Of course a 6th round FA Cup tie at home is a big game, especially when the fans wanted to return to Wembley to wipe out the memory of last year's defeat. Mind you, there have been so many memorable cup runs to the last eight and beyond, that the odd home defeat shouldn't really upset us so much, should it?

David Moyes's Everton have reached the last eight of the FA Cup 3 times in 11 years (2009, 2012 and 2013) something Walter Smith could only dream about as he only got there three times in 4 years (1999, 2000 and 2002). Admittedly he never won one... but two of them were away from home.

Col Noon
773 Posted 03/04/2013 at 18:55:49
I can't see anything other than the usual Everton team under Moyes that is crippled with fear losing at Anfield. Pienaar and Fellaini will do their customary vanishing acts and produce the square root of fuck all. Add to that Distin and Jagielka being run a mock by Suarez and the obligatory referee from hell and, hey presto, ANOTHER horrible day for all Blues concerned when it comes to Liverpool. It's an all too familiar story.

Sorry, Richard, this has no legs I'm afraid.

Duncan Lems
778 Posted 03/04/2013 at 19:44:35
I will never watch a derby match live again with David Moyes in charge, the semi-final is still hurting ffs.
Sam Hoare
782 Posted 03/04/2013 at 19:54:39
Gavram, 693, I wasn't trying to suggest what might happen if Moyes left.

Certainly you're right in saying that the future is unknown, only that I really don't think the last 11 years has been that terrible (my implication being that Leeds and Portsmouth fans could tell you what terrible really feels like).

Paul Gladwell
784 Posted 03/04/2013 at 19:55:27
I don't think it's the actual amount of time we have gone without winning there... it's the way it has happened. We very rarely give them a game either, we have gone there and played Anichebe out wide before his improvement this year, to which they ridiculed us and him for, we have chopped our in-form team (last year) and in general Moyes goes negative there. I

will no doubt get slated by Mike Gaynes now but it's the truth: we shit ourselves, they intimidate us, we don't them. They have even turned us over a couple of times with ten men if I'm right. It's about time we went there and showed them the respect they show us — and that's sod all.

Jimmy Kelly
825 Posted 03/04/2013 at 21:50:59
So, to summarise your point, Patrick, Moyes doesn't always bottle it in big games (having won 3 previous quarter finals and 1 semi final) but isn't as good a manager as Walter Smith because he had a better record of getting to the quarter-finals (though no further)?

There is some quality playground logic on these forums!

Patrick Murphy
832 Posted 03/04/2013 at 22:02:00
Jimmy

Moyes won 2 of those Sixth Round ties, he lost the last one against Wigan a few weeks ago. Moyes does not have a good record in big games — that's a fact! sadly.

Playground logic? I was just showing up the fact that our FA Cup record under Moyes is abysmal, if even Walter Smith could get us to the last 8 in 3 out of his 4 years in charge. BTW, Walter was also in charge the last time Everton won across the park.... and no, I don't think Walter was a better manager than David Moyes... but that doesn't mean that David Moyes is a living legend either.

Steven Telford
877 Posted 04/04/2013 at 00:28:03
I think Spurs and Arsenal are more important games for us at the moment.
Timothy Sebastian
889 Posted 04/04/2013 at 06:09:59
Why we do badly against Liverpool? The answer – we just give them way too much respect, as some posters have already said above.

Have you noticed that, when teams chase and harry Liverpool, they tend to retreat and make mistakes that leads to goals against them.

Take the recent game they played against Southampton. The Saints battled them from start to finish. Even when Coutinho pulled a goal back just before half-time, they did not lose their confidence. They came out in the second half and gave Liverpool the same treatment as in the first half. The result, a 3-1 win to Southampton.

Compare that with last week's game with Aston Villa. In the first half, Villa did exactly the same as Southampton. They harried Liverpool, crisply passed the ball around them, and made chance after chance against a back-paddling Liverpool side. Then what happened! In the second half, they reverted to what Everton normally do – that is, try to protect the lead, and invite pressure on themselves. The result, Liverpool walked away winners.

Unless we have the same spirit as Southampton – to keep on going even after taking the lead and continue to pummel the shaky Liverpool defence – we haven't got a chance of getting anything from the game. We all know what needs to be done. Trouble is, do our players have the heart and spirit to deliver.

Anto Byrne
892 Posted 04/04/2013 at 07:19:00
It's not a new phenomenon – they have been our nemesis since at least 1971, they raise their game and want to win and believe they have this divine right. Unless Moyes can instil this into his teams we will never win Anything!! Sadly.
Jim Potter
941 Posted 04/04/2013 at 13:25:08
A lot of defeatist mentality above.

I think the R/S are exactly that – shite – and we'll prove that come the day.

I believe that as long as Mirallas, Fellaini and Baines are fit and on their normal game, we'll send a lot of Norwegians and southerners home unhappy.

James Martin
946 Posted 04/04/2013 at 13:46:02
'I believe that as long as Mirallas, Fellaini and Baines are fit and on their normal game' – This is usually the exact problem when we face Liverpool – they never are. The injury list when we play them is always so predictable. I will be utterly amazed if all of Mirallas, Pienaar, Gibson, Osman, Coleman and Baines are fit to face them. In fact I'll be amazed if any of them are fit.

Earlier this season we played them without Gibson and Pienaar with a half fit Fellaini and Mirallas who also went off injured. The midfield in the second half was Gueye Osman Neville Naismith and we still gave them the run around.

Arteta used to get injured before every derby, it was like some sort of running joke, one season he'd just torn apart Villa a week earlier before of course pulling his groin in training; step in Zinedine Kilbane. Another time, Hibbert broke his rib in training the week before, step in Segundo Castillo.

Obviously it helps if the players missing aren't enforced by the manager (see last season's debacle) but for once it would be nice to go there with our first 11 all fit and in form – god forbid the notion of them ever having anyone injured when they played us might actually come to pass one of these days...

Jimmy Kelly
957 Posted 04/04/2013 at 12:41:31
Patrick, you'll notice I said 3 previous quarter finals because he'd won his 3 previous quarter finals. 2 FA and 1 League Cup.

You inadvertently make a very interesting point though, in refuting that he's a living legend, because very very few people in my experience ever suggest he is. I certainly don't, and believe me he sometimes infuriates me, but I think much of the criticism that comes his way from people like yourself is laughable. For example your assertion that his FA Cup record is 'abysmal'.

It's not great, granted, but abysmal? A quick enquiry shows me that Spurs and Villa (I think most people agree that these 2 are comparable clubs to Everton in the majority of ways) have reached 2 and 1 semi final respectively in the time that Moyes has been here, with no finals between them. Villa have also been eliminated in the 3rd round on 6 occasions in this time. Seems a tad harsh then to proclaim Moyes' 2 semis and 1 final as 'abysmal', no?

Carl Sanderson
236 Posted 05/04/2013 at 14:46:26
Patrick 450:

Great post, sums it up.

Patrick Murphy
241 Posted 05/04/2013 at 14:49:14
Jimmy we'll agree to differ, whilst the Villa and Spurs performances do enhance your argument I don't care about their record I do however, care greatly about what Everton do and how they do it.
Donald Twain
607 Posted 06/04/2013 at 18:21:33
Give him the day off and I might watch it.

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