Andy, I've just posted on another thread that Everton are keen on Malky Mackay the Cardiff City Manager, I'm not sure that would signal ambition either.

Andy, I'm sure the fans have higher expectations but I'm equally sure the board don't.

As long as Moyes, or the new manager, can keep us on the Sky gray train they'll be happy to hold out until a buyer comes along that agrees to the silly money they want for the Club.

But things won't change for a new manager and the same 'lack of money' excuses will still apply.

Not Moyes's biggest fan but I think his tactics, signings and the way he conducts himself are sound. He does dither with his substitutions and where he plays people but I generally give him the benefit of the doubt because of the Board.

I find it v difficult to assess Moyes and whilst I think there's much better I'm so exasperated with the Board that Moyes is an afterthought. I don't see changing Moyes changing our fortune.

Just a question, how would a Martinez/Laudrup/Flavour of the month manager have stopped Baines' s poor pass? I know it's a daft question but if other posters can talk shite, so can I

Tony, an awful lot of games are lost by silly mistakes and managers lose their job. Serious question. When do you believe that a defeat is down to the coach?

Every single game lost lost Andy. He has to take his fair share of the blame for team/tactics/substitutions. All I ever argue is that the player apologists have to accept that the players need to take their share too. Nothing more, nothing less, but some nuggets on here just love their sound bites about Moyes don't they?

David Moyes has been at Everton for an incredibly long time with no success. He has won nothing-zilch in 11 years.
Expectations are very low. We are talking about one of the great clubs of English football. Not Leeds Utd, not Manchester City, not Chelsea.
Who the hell let Everton fall like this!
We need a change. We need a new board and a new manager!
Regardless of what Moyes apologists think it is plain to see that he is a very negative manager and I have a horrible feeling that he will still be here next year.
Unless the current owners leave Everton nothing will change.
I agree yesterday's performance had nothing to do with money- it had everything to do with a manager who is unable to motivate his players or make any sort of tactical change in a match, a manager who is clueless about substitutions and a manager who will not take a risk.
Why are Jelavic and Naismith in the squad? What does Moyes do to strikers?
If by some incredible chance Moyes does leave I just hope that we look away from these shores for a new manager because lets face it 99% of British managers are tactically inept!

In my opinion you could take your pick from any of the young managers currently in the Premiership,give them 11 years and a substantial wage bill and they would all be able to get us to 6th/7th position without winning a trophy.

Money doesn't dictate our final league position. Moyes is one of... probably the only manager who finishes high above what is 'natural' and consistently.

But for one off games, money is not an excuse rolled out, even yesterday. We lost to Sunderland who parked the bus. Losses happen.

You talk of when it counts... but its counted for the last so many games and we had a won 4 drawn 2 record.

As for ambition - what other clubs came within 4 games of CL football? I don't see how that signals a lack of it. No transfer funds for 5 years and we took it all the way into April.

I thought this quote before the Arsenal game summed up the whole ethos at the club;

"Arsenal fans believe top four is not good enough for their club, just like Everton fans believe top 10 is not good enough for us."

I thought that was a little dig at anyone moaning about our League position, and we should be happy to be in the top half.

Mind you, a few on here say exactly the same, so I suppose Moyes was right after all.

Andy, people continue to refer to walter's days 11 years ago adding it doesn't matter we haven't won anything under Moyes!

We are excuse ridden from top to bottom expectation at present day Everton is all about avoiding relegation and it is cowardly bollocks.

How is Everton all about avoiding relegation when they've been chasing CL for 34 games and currently reside five points from the European Champions?

Moyes biggest problem is failure to give players who under perform a rest, and allow the so-called 'fringe' players, or youngsters, a chance to play for a regular starting berth in the team. The most glaring example of this over the second half of the season is Pienaar.

Yes, he's a tidy player with the ball at his feet... and yes, he works hard and tracks back... and yes, he links up well with Baines (although not to any great effect over the last couple of months) but for a player in his position he does not create, or score enough goals. He is too slow, and often slows down play by stopping and turning back on himself.

He is also a terrible passer of the ball. I have never seen a professional footballer pass the ball to the opposition as much as he does. Even simple, 10-yard passes. It's as if he switches off and loses concentration. It infuriates me when people give him glowing reports, when after watching the game he sets up many opposition counter attacks by giving them the ball when Baines has bombed on to support. Against Arsenal, they should have scored 2 goals as a result of Pienaar giving the ball away far too cheaply.

When will the current players be given serious competition and fear for their places? If they have a bad game, take them out and give someone else a chance to shine. Give Oviedo a chance, and other fringe players, when players don't perform and they will work harder to stay there!!!

On a sunny September what seems like an eternity ago, this is the team that destroyed a good Swansea side 3-0 with a fluent attacking style that brought rave reviews and at the time, we were the team that created the most out of all the leagues in Europe-and it wasn't a one-off because we dominated teams the 1st half of the season

Howard,
Neville Heitinga Jagielka Baines

Coleman Osman Fellaini Pienaar

Mirallas Anichebe

With the exception of Jags and Gibson this is the same team that huffed and puffed against a not very good Sunderland and with the exception of a few standout performances (or to use the singular, performance v Citteh) we have been decidedly average since the turn of the year.

This is practically a mirror image of the last 3 seasons, so put to bed the ‘he coaches them’ argument because this is the £64 million conundrum, why are we a top 4 side for half a season?

I will forgive Moyes for not winning anything during the last 11 years, simply because he has moved us from perennial relegation candidates into the perennial nearly getting into europe candidates. However, the 11 years has passed and now he must get us onto the next rung of the ladder, or go. No more excuses, he must improve the playing squad, use the full squad sensibly and win a trophy in the next two years. I would have that as a condition of any contract that he signs this time round. No more excuses, no more silly capitulations. It is for me, now or never. Two years or else.

A reasonable expectation based on our resources and performance over the past 11 years is that we will finish `seventhish`. This is not to be confused with ambition or hope. Those two bedfellows would see us winning the Prem every year or at least `doing an Arsenal`.

I suspect that the Club budgets to finish tenth and bonuses (including the manager's) are based on that position. Not very ambitious, I agree, but, based on our finishes pre-Moyes, almost optimistic.

To say things like "this is just not acceptable" only displays how unrealistic so many Evertonians have become. Yes, we have a great heritage but, apart from brief spells of glory in the eighties, have hardly been a continuous force to be reckoned with since 1970. In short, Man Utd and Them left us for dead (or at least comatose) for the last 25 years. Other clubs such as Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City and Spurs have either become better run or come into money.

Only recently have I taken much interest in the pre-Prem years as I was not then an active supporter. But I can say with some certainty that financially Everton has been dropping into `basketcase` status ever since the Moores empire started to wane in the seventies. Johnson could do little to arrest the slide and Kenwright even less. The latter`s gamble of pumping most of the revenue `into Finch Farm` (ie, the playing resources) has seen us become regular `top enders` but, even under the competent and steady management of David Moyes, could hardly have led to `regular top four`. The revenue generated has simply not been enough.

Could we expect to do better under a new manager and/or new owner? Personally, I'm not certain. I would certainly hope so but so many clubs have been seen to fail that, every time I hear the term `project`, I shiver. Indeed, so nervous am I about our future that I no longer take it for granted that even another few years of Moyesie will guarantee us that cursed `seventhish`!

Richard Dodd, a reasonable expectation would also be for the board to support the manager so we can push on.

This season, we have underachieved badly. Convert half of our 14 draws into wins and we would be 2nd, we should have won against Wigan, who are going down, and we should have won the League Cup, but we lost to Leeds.

Doddy, if you think 7th every year is good, that's fine but I want better, I want us to be the best, not best of the rest.

Ross, we all "want" us to be the best. Not one of us would actually "want" less. But we ain't the best. And if we finish seventhish, then that's about where we've been finishing, so you could argue we haven't under-performed but performed at about our current level with our current players, manager etc.

I (we all) started the season not knowing where we'd finish but hoping (as all of us) it would be at least challenging for a Europe-qualifying place. And we have challenged for that (still are?). So in terms of realistic expectations, I'm not suicidal about where we are finishing. Disappointed in terms of what might have been? Yes. Realistic? Yes.

It really is time for Moyes to go. 11 years at the helm and still the football and expectations remain the same: SHITE. The fans who keep supporting Moyes are doing as much damage to the club as Kenwright.

Yesterday at Sunderland was a typical normal Moyes type team selection and performance. Please why can't you all (Moyes included) see that Leon Osman is a joke? Barkley, best player at Arsenal, his reward: dropped for clueless Ozzie. Nice one, Davey... ruin the lads confidence and destroy morale. Yet more typical Moyes nonsense we have seen so many times over the years.

If ever proof were needed that a new manager can breath new life into a side then Di Canio has given that proof inside two weeks. Di Canio has given Sunderland belief, passion, desire and a will to win. Everything Moyes fails to give our team. You won't find a Di Canio side shit-scared of teams and chocking in big games.

From the last 3 games Everton need at least 7 points, maybe all 9, yet managed only 2. When time comes to step up to the plate, Moyes and his boring, stale, gormless tactics fail to hit a home run.

Over a decade of "one step forward, two steps back" for our great club and yet we all realise this starting 11 is the best since the 1980s? We have tremendous players at the club but Moyes cannot get them playing properly and effectively because he doesn't know how.

That's the thing about Davey Boy, he just ain't got it. Moyes can swap clubs and get lorry loads of dosh to spend on players but it won't change him. He will still play shitbag defense-minded football with no clue how to manage strikers.

Please, please fuck off now, Davey Boy. I am sick to death of being bored to death watching my team play. Most of the time, I dread going as I know it will be a joyless soulless experience that makes me more angry with each passing game... Football should be exciting and entertaining and leave you with a warm glow when you leave the stadium.

David Moyes's Everton are shocking to watch and it's time for the man to go. Freshen things up and lets have a smile and someone who doesn't look like he is on death row every week. Moyes is dragging the club and the fans into the same dark moody place he lives in and its no good for any of us...

Do one, Davey — do us all a favour.

Just for once ,a measured and sensible summation of our Club`s situation from the Doddster. I really think the lad`s maturing!

He does right to note the difference between hope and expectation. I had hoped we would get a European place but expected us to finish `seventhish`. That`s why I`m due to pick up a decent sum off my bookie come season's end.

I also think it's true that Kenwright has supported this manager with a very high proportion of the club's revenue — trouble is, the amount of revenue is so far below that of the top clubs that we`re left trailing in their wake.

His final comments about the manager's future are interesting. Is he coming to see that his Moyesiah was really Brian after all?

Andy Crooks, opening post.

"Lack of funds didn't appear to matter in those games yet, away at Reading against Norwich, QPR etc it, is rolled out as an excuse. "

Norwich 1 - 0 Man Utd
Sunderland 1 - 0 Man City
Chelsea 2 - 2 Southampton.
Southampton 2 - 1 Chelsea
Newcastle 3 - 2 Chelsea
Chelsea 0 - 1 QPR
Everton 1 - 0 Man Utd

ALL teams can and do come unstuck at different times; all the top 5 teams plus the Shite have much more money than we do, and 9 times out of 10 it matters. But on these occasions, it didn't.

But these examples only serve to underline how unusual it is for moneyed clubs to come unstuck against clubs with lesser funds. Why? Because we were all very surprised to see those results which went against the form. Apart from the last one ;-)

Money matters.

6th or 7th it is then. No trophies again...

Overachieving?

Nick 524 it's avoiding relegation because that's what it is a continued existence in the Prem kidding on it's some kind of achievement.

The "challenging for europe" is "partly pregnant" neither one thing nor the other a grotesque delusion for keeping the status quo and justifying lack of ambition.

I might add many have pointed out the folly of the 4th hype months ago. Along with the Wigan and Leeds debacles the misjudgement that 4th would end in anything but whimpering failure just beggars belief given the plethora of evidence regarding Moyes partnership with failure.

There's only the anfield derby left to complete the set, oh joy, oh joy.

Barry, I have almost no idea what you've just wrote.

You think that some at the club are just happy to be in the Premier League?

That so long as we're challenging for Europe it keeps people happy?

And there's no point in having ambition for 4th because Moyes has a partnership with failure?

Well either the club are happy to avoid relegation... or happy to challenge for Europe... but to challenge for top 4 is the first step to challenging higher, which I suppose is where we all want the club, yet I don't think you can skip challenging for 4th and instead go toe to toe with Utd for the championship.

Isn't this as delusional as those across the park?

Nick, inadvertently you highlight the problem with:

"Well either the club are happy to avoid relegation... or happy to challenge for Europe... "

Given Moyes methods they are one and the same invariably we don't get europe (a blessing given his brief flirtations) we just exist atop the deadwood noteworthy only for avoiding relegation.

It's touching you think the "4th" challenge was serious but then again I think that's the whole point - many of us knew that with Moyes running the show it never was.

It's time for a change, we can all see that... who we get will depend on the money. For me, I would go for Martin Jol.

You're right, it was all bluff 34 games into the season... even if its still mathematically possible.

Sure you're not transferring your natural negativity onto the club?

Barry,

"Avoiding relegation," is surely premised on either a widely-held prediction, or an actual genuine risk of being relegated & surviving it.

Wigan avoid relegation.

Fair do's Nick statistically it was possible there again it was probably possible we could get relegated but did you think that ?

Noooooo!!!...

It comes down to judgement if you watch Moyes teams you see the same issues year in year out the same choking, meandering through a season.

Sure the 10th to 7th is secure but does that excuse Wigan, Leeds etc etc etc or should we do something grasp the bull by the horns and change it?

Might be considered positive by some .... or would it?

Kevin, because I want us to play to our potential and win something rather than fail year in year out in exactly the same way "challenging for europe" has become the last refuge of the excuse monger.

Using it as the only laurel for Moyes just shows how low our expectations have dropped - which is what the OP suggests.

How right Andy is.

Judgement? I just go by the table. Come the end of season we'll be somewhere between 5th and 7th.

That's more important than a 2nd round League Cup loss at Leeds.

Of course we won't do anything, Moyes will make the decision.

If he stays then it will be another CL push next season... a push that no other team without money will come close to making. What makes Everton special that they do so, if not the manager?

If he leaves, then it will be some horrendous Steve McClaren type and we won't be going into April with anything but 10th.

You think Moyes holds us back, when in fact he pushes us higher than where we should by rights be.

Nick, 7th and no silverware is killing us we share a city with Liverpool and are 40 mins from the Mancs we have to have glory for the future of the club. Stories abound of kids supporting anyone but EFC in classrooms in the area.

A manager who continually fucks up in the cups for 11 years isn't addressing that.

Money woes or not Wigan are in the cup final and Swansea won the league cup both took it to teams richer, better than they. Moyes methods are incapable when it really matters and even worse leave us vulnerable to those below us if they are up for it.

We really can't afford not to change - whether it's a Mclaren or an undiscovered Mourinho is in the lap of the gods. As I consistently say being frightened isn't a good reason to put up with Moyes.

Awesome, now Paolo Di Canio is the answer to our prayers as he won 2 matches. You won't ever find his side choking in big games..... provided you ignore losing against mighty Macclesfield Town in the FA cup this year.

I have no doubt that other managers would see us playing more attractive football than the percentage football we see under Moyes. But I also believe that no other manager will improve on the amount of points this side can get over the course of a season. Ultimately to play Barcelona-esque football, you need players capable of playing that standard. Wigan have played some great football this year, and will be relegated like many many before them. Our biggest killer is chance conversion. I would suggest that this season we have converted less than anybody percentage wise. If you have got a striker who can't put his chances away the style of football becomes irrelevant.

Dan you're missing the point... see above.

Dan.

If you have got a striker who can't put his chances away the style of football becomes irrelevant.

In total agreement.
sums up our season.

I am not missing it at all Barry, changing managers is not going to guarantee success. Moyes got to a cup final, but lost as our players were outplayed by an experienced Chelsea side. I personally don't hold that against Moyes. Even if we had won that day, our prospects for the future would not have changed a single bit. Financially, we would still be in the shit. Cups are unfortunately are a nice to have, but the bread and butter is league positions. Portsmouth won a cup in the not too distant memory, sadly they still ended up relegated and bankrupt.

Nick 796,

Can I ask what criteria you use when you say "Moyes pushes us by rights higher than we should be "

Joint 9th in the wage bill table. Zero net spend in 2 out of last 7 transfer windows, selling off first team players and no first team purchase in the other 5. Crumbling stadium. Smallest squad.

Season after season after season... in fact 10 out of 12 including this one, the ONLY teams to finish above are the ones with the money. And we finish above some of those too.

Plenty of clubs below have it better than Everton.

Maybe you in return want to give me your criteria as to why we should be where we are, if not doing better?

No, Dan, you do miss the point: if we had won that day or a cup at anytime during the last 11 years, an upsurge in kids following the club would have happened.

You may think it's marvellous saying "7th" – it cuts no ice with kids choosing Liverpool, Mancs, Chelsea etc, we can't afford to depend on arl arses (like me and others) – short-sighted defeatism.

Nick,

Using your criteria.
How do you reckon QPR are second from bottom (on goal difference)

Generally players are paid what they're worth, at QPR absolute trash are earning £60k pw, and you don't purchase 30 additional players in the last 18 months knowing they're turning up for the pay check way before the club's interest.

Now thanks for the diversion, back to you and your criteria as asked... but only if you want to.

Barry, its been the same since the start of time. It hasn't just been the case in the last 11 years that kids follow the flavour of the month.

Its great to have kids supporting the club, but ultimately it is Premier League positioning and broadcasting rights that pay the bills. Unless of course Everton will become the first team in the history of the world that goes under as they have no supporters left.

Thank you for answering my point.
Usually when a question is asked in a response to a question it means....

QPR have spent £40 plus million this season by the way.

What is your point?

I think maybe you're going down the road that money doesn't rule as you're highlighting QPR.
You'd be wrong to do so. Money is certainly a prerequisite to performing well in the league - QPR, Newcastle show you can of course have a shit load of cash and fuck up tremendously.
Everton are up the other end.

Back to you...

Nick, we should be doing better because Moyes is excellent at building a good squad cheaply. Do you disagree with that? We aren't doing better because he simply doesn't believe in them. Safety first tactics too often and young players only getting a chance when we are hit by injury. If Hibbert was fit Coleman wouldn't be playing. Barkley got a chance through injury, took it, and was dropped for an un-droppable favourite.

Have to say that the most significant reason for us not reaching Top 4 this season is the abysmal form of Nici Jelavic.I`m sure we all EXPECTED him to get into double figures and possibly be the 20 goals man we`ve been looking for so long.
I just don`t go with those who say Moyes `has ruined him`.He`s simply lost his instinctive touch.

Has Moyes really overachieved? In my opinion, you could give any of the current young managers in the Prem 11 years and a decent wage bill and they would get us to 6th or 7th position with no trophies.

Money determines where you finish in the league.
Errr......but not all the time.
That was the point I was trying to make Nick,apologies for the delay in getting back to you.

Paul,

why are you singling out current "young" managers? do they have some special elixir that any other premiership manager doesn't? They do have one thing "special" - inexperience.

Its fantasy/guesswork to say that "any of them" would get us to 6th or 7th after that amount of time. Complete championship manager. Its far more likely (and statistically accurate I'd wager) to suggest that 1 or 2 would do better than Moyes, 1 or 2 would do the same, but maybe 3 or 4 (given the funds) would do worse. And there's the rub.

Jeremy,
Simple really,I am singling out "young managers" as a lot of the others will be OAP's in 11 years.

Good Lord, that Blue Union meeting with the Echo may have done something, Mr Prentice in tonight's Echo picking at how money is under Bills nose with the Sunday Times rich list showing what Granchester, Earl and Green earn, be prepared for a month ban Dave for that.

Granchester does not talk to Kenwright.
Earl and co have no interest in investing in Everton.
They spotted an opportunity to place their retail units in the failed Kirkby stadium,they would be out of Everton tomorrow if they could get their money back.