David Moyes defends his decision to withdraw Kevin Mirallas

People were complaining last week that Moyes played Mirallas when he went off early injured saying he brought him back too soon, then they complain because Moyes took Mirallas off at Villa probably to avoid risk of further injury and because he hasnt played much football and was not playing as well in the 2nd half.

They complained about the substitution at Bolton which won us the game.

They complained that Neville gets played even though most our best run consited of Neville being in the team, then they complain that Neville is not in the team aginst Villa, it turns out Neville was injured.

They complain that Moyes doesnt use enough of his squad players, Moyes uses his squad by playing Heitinga, they complain that Moyes played Heitinga.

They complain that Moyes plays people out of position square peggs... they complain that Moyes didnt play Oviedo (a left back) out of position at Right back.

When Moyes leaves us at the end of the season we will be fucked you moaning idiots.

IMWT!

You make it sound like if you raise one salient point you are automatically associated with every irrational theory as well. Oh, sorry, I forgot that that is an acceptable way of debating on TW.

Mirallas's substitution against Villa – seemed reasonable to me, but some must have thought he still had more chance of making something happen than the unfortunately currently hapless Jelavic, or maybe they wanted it to be known that they would have preferred something 10 minutes earlier. I don't think anyone was booing the fact that Heitinga was being hooked, nor was the displeasure directed at the replacements per se.

Jelavic substitution against Bolton – I understood the feelings behind the booing because it was not immediately apparent how the manager was going to use Heitinga and it could have been a negative move. As it was Fellaini moving forward made it neutral / slightly positive but the fact that it was Heitinga who got the decisive goal was fortunate in the extreme. This very modest roll of the dice has now been blown-up into an audacious tactical master-stroke.

Square pegs in round-holes – this really depends on what options you have available, and how complicit you are in causing that situation in the first place. If you are down to absolute bare bones then using someone out of their normal position becomes necessary. However, a left-footed full back may still be a better choice for the right back position than a right-footed centre back, especially if that centre back is required to do a job in his normal position.

If Pip was rested in order to preserve him for the Manure game, then you really have to question whether he is really likely to help us gain more than the two points we effectively lost against Villa by playing JH against Benteke for 60 minutes.

Be careful how far you extrapolate into the future Pip's undoubtedly positive influence during the majority of his EFC career. For a lot of people, lately he has been obviously declining (which isn't surprising considering his age and limited skill-set).

The rider that goes with the use of square pegs also applies to the suggestion that the manager does not make full use of his bench / squad. It is about who you use, when, and how, not simply a numbers game.

The point I am making is Moyes cannot win no matter what decision he makes. He cannot please everyone unfortunately. Just as it is said on here that some fans will not say a bad word or criticise Moyes there are some on here who will not give any credit and will look for any tiny detail to beat him with.

Some people are not happy unless Moyes picks the exact team they want and then they will still complain if he doesn’t make the subs at the exact moment they want. They don’t consider that maybe they are wrong and that their decisions wouldn’t work either, they don’t appreciate what is going on behind the scenes like the fact that Neville was unable to play in the Villa game or that in the Bolton game Moyes substitutes was intended to be a positive move, people jump to conclusions too quickly and cant wait to have a go.

They can't seem to accept that David Moyes has far more understanding of football management than themselves and fans actually have the arrogance to believe that they know better than David Moyes, some of these people have probably never even kicked a ball. Its like me trying to tell Ricky Hatton how to box and give him tactics on how to beat Floyd Mayweather.

Just because the people posting on here don't get paid vast sums of money to manage a football club, doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong when they criticise certain aspects of the manager's style, strategy or decisions.

You are as guilty of making extreme and potentially unfounded assumptions as those you are having a go at.

I doubt many on here have never kicked a ball, and in any case footballing ability is not a particularly good indicator of managerial ability. Did Jose Mourinho ever play professionally or just as an amateur?

The fact remains that it is highly unusual for anyone other than professional footballers to get into coaching and managing at a high enough level to ever have a chance of making an impression. That doesn't necessarily mean nobody else is capable.

For the record, football is a team game and there are undoubtedly various strategies that can be employed that may bring success. Suggesting something different to what DM chooses is nothing like preparing Ricky Hatton to face Floyd Mayweather, because there is nothing Ricky could ever do except hope for an early pile-driver right on the money!

Now we have Man City to make it even more difficult. Are people so delusional to believe that another manager can come in and break the top 4 without money that top 4 teams spend? Do you even trust Kenwright to get lucky again? I don’t think people have thought things through clearly.

Si, you are clearly delusional, I would love to see you arguing with SAF or Mourinhio telling them their mistakes and telling them “just because I don’t earn vast sums of money doesn’t mean I can't criticise you for not putting out the team that I think would be best”. You can criticise but no-one would give you any credibility.

Surely with your great expertise you should be earning vast sums of money, because as you say you don’t have to play at a good level.

I also thought you were one of those who strongly back the importance of tactics rather than the quality of the player, so why is it any different having tactics in a boxing match. Surely if you think tactics are so important he should be able to beat the better quality fighter?

I think my boxing analogy, is at the very least more worthy than Christine's analogy the other week. At least I am talking about a sport, we had Christine on here the other week using an analogy saying “you wouldn’t get a plumber to build a house” as a criticism for Moyes playing people out of position. I’m sure you were one of those saying what a good analogy it was and then you reject my analogy.

Plenty of people identified that Benteke would take Heitinga to the cleaners before a ball was kicked on Saturday, because it was obvious to anyone with half a brain, never mind FIFA coaching badges.

You never identified yourself as the managerial messiah but you criticise Moyes as if you know better. The bits that make you delusional are most of post 901 where you give your take on Moyes decisions as if you were Brian Clough or SAF who had proven themselves to know enough about football to give a valid opinion and citicise.

Moyes would have known that Benteke was likely to take Heitinga to the cleaners but we have very little alternative. The only other realistic option was to play a LB at RB which he tried in the 2nd half. Had he played Oveido at RB and not started Heitinga and we still struggled no doubt you would be amongst those complaining about Moyes playing people out of position and not playing Heitinga. I've seen it so many times people complaining even when we win. We beat West Brom the game before with Heitinga and people were still moaning and Heitinga helped to win the game against Bolton so Moyes had the right to play Heitinga without taking shit form all the know-it-alls.

If you have ever had the good fortune to talk to professional sportsmen like I have then you will understand that they are normally happy to discuss anything about their sport when it is presented reasonably and they can understand the merit in what you say even if ultimately they don't agree with your conclusions. Most people aren't as close-minded as you appear to be.

"Surely with your great expertise you should be earning vast sums of money, because as you say you don’t have to play at a good level."

I never claimed to have great expertise, just that it is irrational to assume that just because someone hasn't got a career in football management that they are incapable, and I addressed in my post why people who aren't involved in professional football are very unlikely to ever get a chance to prove themselves at it.

Jose Mourinho followed the career path of his father to some extent, but even he had to explore alternative careers before working as an interpreter gave him an opportunity to try coaching again. It has never been my dream to be a football coach or manager so I have pursued other interests. Doesn't give you the right to casually insult my competence.

"I also thought you were one of those who strongly back the importance of tactics rather than the quality of the player, so why is it any different having tactics in a boxing match. Surely if you think tactics are so important he should be able to beat the better quality fighter?"

Maybe you misunderstand a lot of what people write Ian, because I have never said tactics are the be all and end all. They are simply an important part of the equation, with ability and psychology being other major factors. I included the acquisition of players with the tactics being used on the pitch as there is an obvious relationship between the two in terms of a manager's preferred strategy.

I gave a suggestion for Hatton's best tactics in my post (come out slugging and hope for the best) but in a one-on-one sport that can be finished at any stage during the 36 minutes of action there are much less viable options for a clearly inferior fighter to beat the superior one, compared to most EPL games.

Christine used a clever (too clever for some) and succinct analogy to make a point; you chose a poor comparison to belabour one.

IMHO, Ian, you deserved that.

The second sentence obviates the first. Miraculously this formation rendered their attack far less potent, as well as increasing ours! Who'd o' thunk it?

"Had he played Oveido at RB and not started Heitinga and we still struggled no doubt you would be amongst those complaining about Moyes playing people out of position and not playing Heitinga. I've seen it so many times people complaining even when we win."

When you find an example of me complaining without due course let me know. I'll think you'll find me scrupulously fair. However, as I am not someone who thinks it is immaterial whether you deserve the result or not, you may find me raising points that concern me even when we have bagged three points. Since re-arranging the defence on Saturday had a markedly positive effect I think it was a case of QED.

"We beat West Brom the game before with Heitinga and people were still moaning and Heitinga helped to win the game against Bolton so Moyes had the right to play Heitinga without taking shit from all the know-it-alls."

It saddens me to have to repeat what everyone should know to be true, but it is the manager's job to assess the best team for each match on its merits, not simply to choose the same players again and again irrespective of the opposition, and due to the particular job and the very generous remuneration the manager is fair game for fans criticisms, especially on a fans forum.

Would it be fair to say a straight forward choice of picking Jags, in form and a commanding physical player in his regular position? The point is we could all fucking see this! This does not mean David Moyes deserves no praise for the season, far from it. We have played some great football at times and are scoring goals, but you don't need to be an expert to know he fucked it up on Saturday.

Who would have thought we would sell Arteta... Yakubu... Cahill... but life goes on. Moyes plays to a formula, keep it tight: don't concede and nick one, this went out of the window when Villa went 3-1 up. I think we were really lucky to get a 3-3 and 2-1 at Bolton. Lady luck sometimes comes in ways we don't appreciate. Even WBA had a chance to make it 2-2 and we rode our luck thanks to the crossbar.

Over the course of the season we get our fair share of good and bad. I think Moyes just got lucky and good luck to him. Of course he will just put it down to good management and at the end of the season, when these games are forgotten, we will look at the stats and say what a wonderful job he does on a limited budget with ageing players. We are the best of the rest – that's for sure – but for me, that is the point: we want more than being also rans.

I have always believed the Everton fans were reasonable and knowledgeable but I've realised now that we have a very bitter but vociferous minority of "supporters" who believe that they know more about business than successful businessmen, more about team management than successful managers, and more about playing football than successful and talented footballers.

These are people who feel that competing at the top of a top league, improving in quality and getting good results in spite of having low buying power is failure, that finding a benefactor who will wave his magic wand and transform EFC from a frog to a handsome prince is easy... and, even more irrationally, that changing manager and/or board will guarantee success when this is totally illogical; even better is the joke that all EFC needs to do better is "ambition" and the courage to attack top teams at their own grounds even though the likely result of this is humiliation.

No, wanting to see EFC do better is not an excuse for criticism for its own sake, we all want to see EFC do better but criticism has to be constructive.

You have your opinion and you are more than entitled to hold and share those views with fellow posters, but I sometimes feel - maybe incorrectly - that you believe you are a member of the thought police.

In the absence of real power, supporters of every club in the country have the same mix of people following them. Evertonians in general do have a very good knowledge of the game of football and its history and more often than not, that is why they win so many arguments and wagers with supporters of more successful and popular clubs.

What would this forum be like if every comment was rational, and conformed to the EFC guide of how to be a supporter? Without discussion there would be no progress, bouncing ideas off each other, some good some bad, provokes thinking and thinking sometimes persuades people to change their minds, That's a good thing isn't it?

For the headed Villa goal, Heitinga was again in the thick of it while the giant Distin kept his eye on two little fellas near the far post.

For their 3rd goal, he was drawn to the left wing to cover his fullback

When we review the Benteke goals, what we are seeing is a touch of strategic genius from Lambert, the Villa manager. A strategy which DM should have countered by switching Heitinga and Distin... but he didn't.

They scored within 2 minutes but 60 seconds earlier they had mounted a similar attack which ended with a poor cross.

What did Lambert know? Well he knew Baines and Pienaar were the main threat. He knew Distin was our left-sided centre-back He knew Heitinga would be a sitting duck for Benteke if he could isolate him.

Right from the first whistle, he put it all into play. As soon as they won the ball, they moved in unison towards our left hand side, giving Baines and Pienaar more than they could handle and drawing Distin over to help out. This left Heitinga alone and completely exposed. Of course, Benteke was going nowhere. He stayed in the middle.

A truly brilliant plan which DM and Mr Round should have sussed straight away. Tibetan wise man... he say: "Eyes that look with partial vision cannot clearly recognise the obvious, even when it hits them on the nose."

Too often this season, both Pienaar and Baines have bombed forward without reserve, none of the centre mids think to cover that position (the consequence of when Neville doesn't play) so Distin has to... leaving the RCB exposed.

We usually get away with it if it's Jagielka playing with a RB who knows how to tuck in with his CB but when its a slow CB like Heitinga with a RB who doesn't know the position then that isolation was inevitable. Nothing to do with some masterplan of Lambert's, it's a problem we have nearly every game due to our formation that for most part of the season we've been getting away with.

In my eyes, one of the problems is that this team from an attacking point of view has been built this season around Fellaini. Everything is about getting him into the box and getting balls in for him. Baines is always trying to overlap to get crosses in literally on every attack and doesn't look for the cutbacks anymore. Jelavic is always pulling the CBs out to the wing to give Fellaini room in the box. Its a rudimentary tactic and, with Baines's crossing failing as it did on Saturday, it doesn't always work.

Last season everyone was playing for Jelavic, he was staying in the middle and Pienaar, rather than looking for Baines, looked for Jelavic straight away. Even in the cup game, Fellaini straight to Gueye, straight into Jelavic, no checking back waiting for the left back. Even when Baines was injured (as in Man Utd away) the effectiveness of the team didn't seem to suffer as Distin just fed Pienaar who just drove at the defense creating the space for Jelavic.

This isn't a dig at Baines, but sometimes full backs are only necessary on the overlap; they can't be the focal point of every attack, they're usually there for when the initial attack by a winger has been closed down. We need to get the ball forward quicker and more direct to stop massed defenses from forming, and allowing Jelvaic at least a chance to work some space in the box. Waiting for Baines to hit the by-line and overhitting cross after cross to an attacking midfielder isolated by himself will only get you so far in the Premier League and will certainly hack off your star centre-forward.

Wait until we play Man Utd — it will be like the Alamo... we do not have good enough reinforcements on the bench. The number of subs allowed plays into the hands of the clubs with big quality bench warmers.

Who can we bring on to really change a game?! Our back-up to the first eleven is woeful and that is down to the board! Our youngsters are not good enough and our scouts may as well be sacked because the board do not act upon whoever they identify quickly enough.

Newcastle got five players in and not for lots of money. We got one player FOR THE FUTURE!! And loaned out one of our perennial bench warmers thereby weakening our first team squad even more.

Now we have two regular subs out on loan, Barkley and Gueye... FFS, think about it and stop knocking the manager for trying to make do and mend.

Kick the organ grinder and stop persecuting the monkey!!

And maybe that manager will fancy the job if Moyes departs in the summer and have a go at A,B or C

And maybe Liverpool will be banned from world football for not being good enough to put more than 1 past a second rate team with a goalie on the take.

What you need to think about is why the businessmen on the EFC board financed the takeover of the club? They saw significant profit by reselling the club but then along came the credit crunch and recession and took away that option. Bill Kenwright isn't the problem at Everton – it is the shadows who finance him. We are in trouble because we have no way of increasing revenue so no way to improve. Our board won't "invest" because they don't have a brain between them and nobody will be buying us. Where it all ends I don't know.

People have different opinions and views on football. That's part of the reason that it is such a great game. It would be nice to hear the arguments being made supported by examples, logic or stats, instead of just saying that people have no right to criticise the manager's decisions.

I know one man doesn't make a club and that's true to a point but, like Man Utd with old whiskey nose, his presence is felt everywhere in the club. The huge gains we have made in the league since he has taken over and the team he is slowly building is the strongest since the mid-eighties; all this will slowly ebb away with Moyes's departure. I can't see why the Moyes haters can't see this...

Of course he makes mistakes – all managers do – but, pound for pound, that man is the best of best in my eyes and with money he would be a world beater. Who do you lot think would do a better job if and when he leaves, with our resources and our board?

James. I'm sticking with the Lambert plan to isolate Heitinga. With Benteke glued to the middle Moyes should have put Distan on him and let Heitinga cover the wings.

People did boo the Mirallas substitution. It didn't show them in a good light. The lad was knackered and had disappeared from the game. Good decision.

Moments later, people, including me, cheered the Heitinga substitution. He'd had a nightmare and should either have been switched with Jags or taken out of it at half time. Good decision, 60 odd minutes and three goals too late.

In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have cheered the Heitinga change. It won't help him and is more likely to have a negative impact on his confidence. He will be needed again before the season ends and, if we support our team, we should support him too.

"Do you want Moyes out, if so what do you think the likely outcome would be? Or, are you simply just giving constructive criticism and your opinion?"

I have never, on this thread or any other, said that I want Davey Moyes out which is why I strenuously object to being lumped with the so-called MOB just because I think the man is far from infallible and I am prepared to highlight and discuss some of his more baffling decisions. When he does move on he will indeed be a hard act to follow in many ways, but no-one can possibly know if a successor will fail miserably, match his achievements or even surpass them.

Martin (#942) - "It's a problem with modern life that everybody feels that they can justify moaning about anything that doesn't conform with their own view of things."

I am sorry but that particular comment should come with a Government 'fatuous and ignorant' warning. Human progress itself is predicated on the predisposition of humans to not only argue for their point of view, but to find examples to justify it as well. If it was up to people like you Martin we would all still believe the Earth is flat and at the centre of the Universe as that was the accepted view of the 'educated' majority!

I don’t think I lumped you in with the MOB thats why I wanted to clear things up and asked you the question which you have quoted in post 055.

Would be indebted to you if in future you try to separate out the reasonable questions that people raise and debate rather than lumping all complaints into some spurious MOB manifesto, therefore tarring everyone with the same brush.

As for our world falling apart if Moyes leaves, it won't because he isn't going anywhere – where else would he be as well paid and free from any pressure on getting the sack?

None of the other top clubs have ever come calling when the chance/chances have become available. And on the off chance he does leave, I can say with a certain degree of confidence that Phil Neville will be the new manager.