Ross Barkley returns to Everton

Ross Barkley made his Everton debut 2 years ago and he looked half decent, then he got what Moyes tried to do to Rooney and all the other young players who come through the ranks — Show 'em who's Boss. Would you be up for playing for poxy Shef Wed and a scumbag outfit like Leeds when you assumed you were part of a Premeir League set up at Everton???

Barkley had a run in with DM in November 2010 regarding not being selected for the Wolves game. and since then he has been deliberately frozen out and treated like a leper... He is a young kid FFS trying to make a name for himself and Moyes treats him like a convict.

Remember Rooneys treatment by Moyes during his second season playing. MotM then dropped; Scores a winner then dropped, brought on for 15 minutes on the wing etc etc etc. In the end Rooney, ran away as fast as he could and straight in to the biggest team in Europe's side — Man Utd!?!

Moyes is a useless man-manager and he is destroying Barkley's confidence and probably the will to play football. It's a Moyes trait — just ask Jelavic.

So before you have a pop at the kid, just stop and think how you would feel and how hard it must be getting up for games in lower leagues when your own manager treats you like dog shit on his shoe.

So what next?

Has anyone had any reviews of how he got on there?

Now, I don't know if he did have a run-in in Nov 2010 but I do know that this 'frozen out leper' signed a long term contract in December 2011 - about the time he was being touted as a target for Chelsea & Man City.

If my memory serves me right he did it against Chelsea at Goodison recently and Torres nearly scored. He has to stop giving the ball away in dangerous places or he'll never be a regular.

Move Fellaini back and play him behind Jelavic.

If he loses the ball trying something different, it wouldn't cause us much grief with Gibson and Fellaini to mop up.

Can't see where Sam has had a go at Barkley.

Tony going off on another boring Moyes bash is another matter.

Frankly, they're laughing at themselves. They cannot believe Warnock is sending this lad back and keeping Michael Brown in the team. They all acknowledged his obvious quality but admitted he hadn't quite adapted to Leeds' very direct style. And as we at Everton have noticed, he probably does try to do too much on the ball. My personal opinion of this is that he's trying too hard to impress.

He needs more than 15 minute cameos. Lets give the lad a chance before we dismiss what is obviously a wonderful talent.

If we don't see him, Oviedo and Duffy on Saturday then I'll be disgusted.

Then we have the Leeds are a scumbag outfit/poxy Sheffield Wednesday remarks to bring the tone even lower. Ask Jelavic blah blah blah.............

Barkely can't be guaranteed a game at Leeds maybe because their midfield is playing well. Moyes wants him to play but he might as well not be playing at Everton as Leeds plus he'll be available for the Cup match.

Is it possible that that's the only fucking reason he's been recalled?

He needs a run of games in the first team, no good just a few mins here and there, he will never develop.

We could be destroying one of the best talents to come through our ranks.

In the same post: "Barkely can't be guaranteed a game at Leeds maybe because their midfield is playing well."

More than a slight inconsistency there Shane, as Leeds are slipping like a stone, lost last night and Leeds fans are reported in The Times as calling for his head

The feeling is mutual.

I'm not having a go at Barkley, I really hope the lad does well as we need him to. But isn't it possible that he's just not quite as good or ready as you think? I don't buy your sob story about him being treated badly and not being bothered to play in the Championship, if that's the case then he will never make it.

Fact is that he had one decent game and all you lot were berating Moyes for not starting him when in fact it seems he's not quite the second coming that you all assumed he was. Perhaps if you weren't quite so keen to torch Moyes for every single thing he does, you might be able to see this possibility.

It's not about whether he's good enough for Leeds, he obviously is; he could obviously be in our first team — he's talented, just isn't experienced.

For.

Fuck's.

Sake!

(Sam - should Moyes go in the summer, I guess you'll be hoping for Warnock as you seem to set a lot of store by his decisions).

It's like bizarro world on here at times.

I mean he made a couple of mistakes and for many, this means he won't be ready until he's 57.

But the 'experienced' (ie: slow, old) Phil Neville plays like a pissed Frank Spencer just about every game and doesn't get half the grief.

I'm merely suggesting that Warnock has his reasons for not playing Barkley.

I refuse to believe our youth/bench is so terrible when we have a highly rated academy and a bunch of Under-21 internationals every year. Obviously their home nations don't think they're shit so they must be here for a reason. Oviedo has played Champions League, is a full international, and hardly ever comes in when Pienaar is playing poorly/tired, Baines has nagging injuries, and Neville is just plain shit at right back.

Duffy has scored 4 goals for the U21 side and has the looked the part in the very few opportunities he's ever been given. Never plays despite the form of Heitinga. Vellios hasn't done much wrong to not at least get an early cup game. All Moyes has to do is rotate them and trust them to hold their own a few games per season. They gain experience. The starters are fresh. Everyone is happy.

FFS,
Tony

"Moyes didn't want him played out of position" — I thought that was a joke for a minute because Moyes is the master of playing players out of position.

But in terms of Barkley I admit to being completely clueless as to what's going on. Not good enough for the Leeds midfield ?.. How can that be true if he's on the verge of being good enough for EFC's midfield duo, or threesome or five some, whatever formation we play. I've read the stuff here and nope, respect the views but its bollocks. He MUST surely be good enough to hold down a place in a struggling Leeds team. If not then why can he be expected to be good enough for us ?

As for the Moyes bashing, where the hell do you get your info ? I think Barkley cannot possibly hate the manager for treating him so badly and still sign a long term deal. However, it's getting daft now.

Manager, and fans alike, take a breath and give this player a chance to prove himself, give him games in his true centre mid position. Can he be worse than Neville playing there alongside Gibson ? Personally I'm hoping to see Duffy and Jags as centre backs against Oldham and without question it must be time to give Oviedo a run and rest Piennar. I'd have Kennedy on the bench as well as Velios and I'd play Jelavic not Victor. Still, interesting to see what Moyes does with the team as the season hangs in the balance over the next three weeks.

I don't put a lot of faith in Warnock's judgement but when it's allied to that of Moyes and the England under 21 coaches, and on top of what I've seen with my own eyes, I believe that at this moment in time he is a long way from being good enough to be playing for Everton in the Premier League. There's no shame in that, he's a young lad and I have faith that he'll get better but we need to stop blaming everyone else every time he's shown to not (yet) be the second coming some people have made him out to be.

I assume you haven't paid for a ticket to go then, as I think the majority of us who have will be disgusted if we do.

Here we go again about losing possession against Chelsea, Jesus Since the turn of the year I have witnessed Neville and Osman give the ball away in dangerous areas almost every bloody minute of every game and cost us goals or stupid fouls on the edge of the area, I have witnessed Heitinga cost us a goal a game even three one game and still they all get picked for he next game, of course he will make mistakes but the lad has to be allowed this, sterling makes so many wrong decisions for the shite but look what an asset he is going to be for them.

If he does not get some match time with us what's the point, bloody Gueye did and he could not lace Barkley's boots! Give the lad a chance not send him to no-man's land for two years after some cock up at Blackburn.

I want to see the future of EFC given a chance, yes. Not a 'weakend' line-up as you put it. Frankly the 11 picked week in week out are fading off form, perhaps due to tiredness. Refreshing the side with a couple of changes is a good thing for the team and also gives people a chance.

And yes pal, I'm a season ticket holder and I'm going to the Oldham game...so you can stick that sly dig up yer jacksy.

People don't see enough of him and when they do he is not allowed one bad pass and yet I have never witnessed so many piss poor dangerous passes in my life than what I witnessed at Southampton with Osman, Neville and Pienaar the main culprits and similar has happened since the turn of the year; the lad will make mistakes he has to be allowed that at times.

Sterling loses possession, gives silly tackles away, but he's learning through experience and developing far quicker and he's been on the scene far shorter too.

Like most of Tony Marsh's posts, there is some truth in what he says. Why does Barkley get singled out for the mistakes he makes, yet people like Osman, Neville, Anichebe, Heitinga, Howard get game after game, even when they make horrible mistakes?

I really am beginning to believe that (for all his good qualities), Moyes breeds FEAR in his players. And as Moyes nears the end of his regime, it is the FEAR that he will be known as the "longest serving Everton manager never to have won silverware" that will make him desperate to win his one last chance at a trophy – the FA Cup.

So, expect to see the same 'tired' bodies for this game too: Jelavic, Mirallas, Pienaar, Fellaini, Gibson, Osman, Baines, Jagielka, Distin, Neville, Howard – they will all play until we have at least a 3 goal cushion with 5 minutes to go. I expect the League performances to taper away.

Why must he suddenly become a starter for us? We need to be able to bring a creative substitute on for flagging midfielders and the lad needs exposure of the little and often variety. However, 10 minutes or less is not enough and people shouldn't expect faultless displays (which we don't get from any of the established players), especially when chasing the game against the likes of Chelsea.

Seems like the fans liked him.

The kid gets 5 minutes here, 10 minutes there, he then tries too hard to show his fantastic ability, takes a chance and gives posession away. Give him a run of 5 games towards the end of the season and judge him then.

Best thing for him is to go to a mid level footballing championship where he will be guaranteed minutes under his belt to show what he can do. Maybe Blackpool?

Who is saying throw them all in at once? I'd take Duffy and Barkley from the start and then see how we go.

If we can't drop a player at fault for 5 of our last 6 goals conceded then we are fucked.

What evidence does anybody have that they are actually any good? From what I've heard from a mate who used to go to all the reserve games Duffy doesn't even look particularly good at that level. He had a loan spell in the Championship where he couldn't get a game and he's never made a proper breakthrough into our team. So why are we assuming him to be the next big thing?

Look back to October/November last year and see how many people were saying Gueye should play more. Fast forward 15 months and there was nearly a revolt near me when he came on at Bolton. Everyone assumed he was better than what we were using but when it came to it he wasn't. Who would have thought.

Whenever Moyes gets passed over for a 'big' job people use it as evidence that he's not very good, and yet won't use the same logic about all these players. If Barkley's so good right now why aren't other premier league clubs in for him on loan? If he's good enough for our midfield surely he's good enough for Reading or Wigan? Or at the very least Cardiff or Leicester? Same with Duffy, surely he wouldn't have signed a new contract recently if he was being chased by similar sized clubs who were offering him first team football?

Again, I hope they all turn out to be world beaters but I'm going to wait until I see some evidence of it before I make ridiculous assertions.

And to those comparing Barkley and Sterling, don't be ridiculous. Sterling is the type of player who always has and always will be ready to play at that age. Walcott, Oxlade Chamberlain, Bale, Sturridge, Adam Johnson, are recent examples of that type of wide player who can use pace and trickery to make an impact out on the wing at that sort of age. He'll never get quicker than he is now and that's his strength so why not use him? It's why he's playing out there instead of up front where he wants to be, same as happened with a couple of the others I've mentioned. Running a game from central midfield, however, is a different matter and I can only think of Wilshere and Fabregas who've been able to do that in recent memory.

Finally, with regards to playing Barkley in his natural position, it's taken Moyes a decade of making a fool of Osman out wide before he did what most of us have cried out for and played him in his real position... so I guess we have no chance of seeing him there until Moyes does one.

Just what are you expecting from these kids as evidence? Let's give them some play time before saying they look no good as the shit I have paid to watch since Xmas surely warrants a chance of some sort.

Stop spouting Barkley rubbish and leave selection to a man who see's these players every day. At 19 years of age, a young player with real ability should be pushing for a place.

Lots of other clubs have them but we do not. We have not produced a Wilshere, Wellbeck, Sturridge, Walcott or Oxlade Chamberlain. Maybe our scouts are no good ???

If Barkley is played and fails, the fans will moan about DM's team selections. The present best eleven has got us into the top 5 or 6 but we do NOT have decent subs and thats wehy we are faltering slightly. We have only lost four games which is better than all but two other sides in the division.

What we have done wrong is not bring in decent players during the January window. We loaned out three players including Barkley just after the window closed. Many fans thought it was a good idea to get the lad more games? He has not made a good enough impression at Leeds to warrant first team selection. Age is nothing to do with it if you are good enough!! Face facts.

What a load of nonsense.

Moyes and every single coach has said he's going to be a top, top player.

There is simply no denying his potential. The problem seems to be his development. Either give him a decent chance or get him on loan. Warnock said he fought off other teams to get Barkley...which other teams? Surely a better footballing side would have been a more profitable option.

Both Barkley and Duffy have played in first team last year and looked good players. Duffy over Heitinga - how crap does H have to play before D gets a chance. Osman played well first 10 games but has been average since Barkley could easily replace him.

Oh no but Moyes must know just like Big Vic is gojng to be a world beater, like Naismith should play over Oviedo, playing Jags at right back. This is the same manager who played Davies in centre mid for years, Osman on right wing for years and on occasions Stubbs and Yobo in midfield.

"Leave selection to a man who sees these players every day". Ho-hum. Well, the fact that many of us are facing is that we have no choice but to do just that, given the supplementary fact – which we are also facing – that we are not well positioned to stage a dramatic coup which would relieve DM of his job. The possibility of replacing him with a raggle-taggle army of team-picking Toffeewebbers is, to face facts once again, remote.

But it's a bit like saying: "Let the Prime Minister rule the country, and don't express any political opinions yourself". Universal suffrage? What a preposterous idea!

I also don't buy that none of our young players have the potential to play in our first team at premier league level. I think that Moyes is simply too risk averse to play them and give them the experience needed to step up.

He is awful at developing our own talent. He has had complete control over the setup in the last 10+ years and virtually the only players to come through are players who were developed by other managers.

How many times have we seen young players played out of position when they do get a chance? Coleman away in portugal playing at left back I seem to remember? We've seen Barkley as a holding midfielder. Anichebe on the wing. Jags in centre mid during the early part of his everton career. Confidence sapping.

Not long ago, Capello said in an interview on Sky that Barkley was the next Wayne Rooney at Everton, but he must play! Moyes never plays him, and what has he ever won? Capello would play him, and look what he's won!

I'm on Capello's side — get him in the team!

The point is, I don't have any evidence to prove that the players aren't currently good enough and you don't have any proof that they are. You assume that they are anyway, despite there being nothing to suggest it. I assume that they're not because the coaching staff at this club, other clubs and international set ups don't seem to believe they are, and I don't believe they have looked particularly impressive when I have seen them play.

Moyes isn't there to pick players because you want to decide for yourself whether they're good enough, he's there to make that decision himself.

Also if you're going to use specific games to show how good a player is you may want to choose one that he actually played in. Duffy was dropped for the City game and Hibbert played instead. There was general derision on here as usual but Hibbert had a blinder and we kept a clean sheet, something we'd failed to do in the previous 3 games with Duffy in that position.

The point is that we cannot do any worse than the likes of Naismith and Osman in midfield who don't have a decent tackle between them. Spurs are holding well in fourth spot and when we play them in April it could well decide who goes into the Champions League; however, we still have a few tough games to play before then but it seems every game is a tough one these days.

But I am a bit annoyed with Moyes. I think bar Oviedo, all of these youngsters are not ready to start. But why not give them game time on the bench? I mean, we can see how tired these players get, why not give Barkley 20 mins? I mean he's only played once since his loan from Sheff Wed.

That's what annoys me about Moyes' complaints about tiredness, we have capable people like Hitzlsperger and Oviedo, who can start the odd game to rest up Osman and Pienaar. And these youngsters can come off on the bench to even try and create an impact.

Another two are McAleny and Kennedy. One a pacy striker and another a tricky winger. Do we have a pacy striker? No. Do we have a tricky winger? Other than Mirallas, no. So, why not put these players on as subs to change the game?

That's what puzzles me about Moyes, and I'm generally a fan of his as well.

"The point is that we cannot do any worse than the likes of Naismith and Osman in midfield who don't have a decent tackle between them".

He's spot on - this for me is EXACTLY the point.

It doesn't say (or mean) Barkley is a genius or a world-beater (or won't ever ever make a mistake ever ever ever), it just suggests the dead average performances of dead average players currently being selected, COULD be bettered.

Imo anyone (including Moyes) saying 'Umm...no, still too risky', deserves the white feather.

On the other hand we see lower league players in the cup who have more desire and hunger to raise their game. Our reserves may not have the quality or consistancy over the course of a season but I think players like McAleny, Kennedy and Barkley wil at least have the energy and more entusiasm during a 20 min cameo to cause problems. No one could put in less effort than Heiting and Osman over the last couple of games.

After a loan spell at Sheffield Wednesday, he was brought back, given a cameo where he looked okay, and was willing to at least take the ball forward. Of course Chelsea have some very good defenders so he lost the ball a few times. The kid has talent and by all accounts was very popular at the Owls. It must be very frustrating for the likes of Duffy, Vellios and to some degree the french kid (also a midfielder Moyes wanted to play as a winger) not getting any game time.

Explain to me why in the last 12 months Duffy has not had a game? At what point do you say "Enough is enough, I need to be playing football on a regular basis even if I have to drop down a division." Had Moyes had a little more foresight with the likes of Ruddy or Hope, maybe they would be bolstering our paper-thin sqaud.

Surely Matty Kennedy can contribute at least the same as Naismith can for 20 mins. The only issue I see is that should he make a mistake, we'll never see him in an Everton shirt again as Moyes doesn't do hugs for the youngsters; he just tears them a new one.

At first, he sits on the bench, then he gets shipped out to Sheffield Wednesday – there is a lot of "maybe we will extend his loan deal"... then he is hauled back to Everton to sit on the bench for 2 months; then suddenly gets shipped out to Leeds, and then suddenly, he is back again. How is a player expected to develop with so much uncertainty?

As someone mentioned, it neither benefits the player, neither Sheff Wed / Leeds (we all remember when Landon Donovan was here for a short loan spell, many of us felt, good as he was for us, what was the point in playing him towards the end of his spell if he is not continuing?), nor Everton.

I rather prefer the idea of a season-long loan (like what Chelsea have done with Lukaku at West Brom – he will be a beast when he returns). I am sure if Moyes had a quiet word with Martinez at Wigan or one of the bottom-placed clubs for a year-long loan, Ross would have got decent playing time and benefited his development enormously.

The Moyes defenders please note: I don't think people here would have been that frustrated if he had been out on loan for a whole season, knowing that we will have a much improved player next season; just that his development seems to be going nowhere at present, and the lads confidence seems to be low. Just a very sad state of affairs at the youth level, I am afraid.

One thing I do know, is that he is 800 times the footballer Stephen Naismith is. He should be first in the queue when those tow are on the bench.

People suggesting Osman is poor are deluded. He's in the England squad and has been brilliant 80% of the time this year.

"...if he was just going to get sat on the bench like he did at Leeds, thats not Moyes fault".

Really?

Try this.

Moyes (to Warnock) - "You can have the boy on loan for a month but he plays every game - your call".

Fact: He's our player and goes on loan (or not) on our terms.

Loaning a player who is going to sit on someone else's bench is about as pointless as it gets.

Barkley's chance will come, I personally think his potential is fantastic and he will be a great player, but equally I'm prepared to accept that Moyes is in a better position than me to decide whether, on the day, he offers a better option to win the game.

You're also falling for the myth that Barkley disappeared after the Blackburn game because he made a mistake. It's not true, it just gives people a convenient excuse because it fits with the image of Moyes they want to portray. He actually made his next appearance in the very next game, and made his next start a couple of weeks later. He then disappeared for a while but to be honest I don't think his performances since the QPR game had been up to much so it wasn't a surprise to me.

Andy, that's fair enough. Football's a game of opinions and if yours is that Duffy is good enough then I respect that. I'm not saying he's definitely not good enough only that the logic of 'he must be better than (insert current whipping boy here)' used by many on here is embarrassing. Heitinga is a player who has played at the top level of the game for a decade and was our player of the year last year, for some people to just assume that Duffy would be an improvement defies belief. I remember similar calls for Peter Clarke to be in the team, the career he's had since leaving suggests those people were wrong.

"do you really believe ANY manager would accept a loan agreement which allows someone else to pick the starting line up?!"

Sorry, 'pick the starting line up'?

Jesus, how desperate are you to score a point?

What a ridiculous (and obvious) exaggeration.

Please point out WHERE I say 'pick the starting line up'.

This is NOT as you state what I am 'suggesting'.

I am suggesting (which was CRYSTAL clear) that if you want OUR player for ONE month, then (unless he's injured or nobs the manager's missus) he plays.

That simple.

Don't agree to our terms?

Absolutely no problem - find someone else.

He's our player and should go on our terms.

Ffs, if he goes to Leeds and DOESN'T play, what exactly is the point or benefit to us?

If my Wednesday supporting mate is to be believed there was also a bit of consternation there at a supposed clause that he had to start every game as some fans thought he wasn't pulling his weight and needed to be dropped but couldn't be. He raved about Barkley's talent but thinks it's no coincidence that their form was better before he went and after he left than while he was there.

If he picks up his massive pay check but cant run, can't tackle and plays out of position then as the fee paying fans we have every right to criticise as we had every right with others who didn't pull their weight if he wants to stop being a whipping boy then he shouldnt play like one.

I don't think Duffy is the answer, which leaves me to question the decisions made in both windows.

Unfortunately Moyes isn't brave enough to let them learn in the first team, maybe Everton arent in that position where it can take any risk.. but this is a short term view and maybe young players don't become star players becuase of our approach....

So we say well he never made it .... what if he could have but for our system.

However, if the nub of your argument is that Barkley deserves game time in a blue shirt you will have no quibbles from me. The lad looked confident and decent versus Stoke and we really lifted our game when he got on - in fact almost won had Peanuts scored. For Leeds v Sheff Weds I thought he looked dangerous.

As for Warnock, I don't give a flying monkey's arse why he couldn't find a spot at Leeds, doesn't diminish him in my eyes. We have a squad badly in need of freshing up and with a Board unwilling to open their tight fists we need to throw in new blood for a game or two and give first teamers a rest. Ossie and Peanuts look totally knackered and frankly we have no one else. Would prefer Ross get a try out as opposed to Hitz, who seems too slow to play at this level.

You're criticising my point but agreeing with it at the same time? Interesting.

I'm no fan of Heitinga, I actually never really have been and I've given him as much stick as anyone this year. I didn't mention his world cup performances, that was you. My point is that people shouldn't just assume that Duffy would be better simply because Heitinga has been poor, it doesn't make sense. You appear to agree with me so just wasted some of your morning arguing about nothing.

When you buy a bag of bulbs for the garden everyone of them has the potential to be a fabulous flower. If they are planted, nurtured and cultivated they have the opportunity to bloom. However, if they are left in the sack, that's all they have — potential... and all they do then is wither and dry up.

The same with likes of Oviedo and our young players. Whatever happens at Villa, sink or swim, their young lads are getting experience. EFC aren't in the same position as Villa but our lads need a chance — otherwise, how will they gain experience?

You can see his policy with young players clearly. The lad is almost frightened to play his normal game when he gets his 5-10 minutes. Mark my words, he will ruin a player whom international Premier League winning players and world famous managers have talked up as being an outstanding talent.

We won't win ANYTHING trying to play the same 11 players all season, we will struggle to win anything with the same 13.

If we can't buy more players of the same quality in, the the players outside the 11/13 best in the squad need to be rotated into the starting 11 for games where their mistakes are less costly, and they can learn from seasoned professionals in the squad in a real game.

I think Moyes does a great job, on the whole, but this year he has been terrible at giving some of the younger/ squad players a run out.

Oviedo, Barkley, Junior, Duffy, McAleny and now Stones could all have had more opportunities - more importantly some of the better players could have had a rest.

How can Moyes moan about his players being tired when it's his fault? This screams of "the top 11 players are good but the rest are rubbish" - David, if that's true then you should have done something about it by now byt (unfortunately) selling Baines or Fellani.

--END RANT--

I'd really like to see Jelavic, Barkley, Vellios and Oviedo start this weekend with Anichebe, Fellani, Osman and Baines dropping to the bench.

Of those 3 Velios I just don't think Velios is going to cut it at this level but can you think of anybody better than Jagielka or Distin to guide Duffy through a game? Barkley is an enigma to all of us based mainly on unsubstantiated opinions. He has not played anywhere enough top level football for anybody to gauge how good he is going to be.

If that`s the case, it begs the question why this experienced manager was prepared to go into a Premier season with only 13/14 players he regarded as `fit for purpose`.

Even with the constraints put upon him by the Club`s financial position there must have been cheap options available which could have brought the playing strength up to all the other clubs` 20+.

It looks very much as though the optimism pre-Christmas of a top four finish will be sacrificed on the alter of parsimony. Parsimony of funds, certainly but also of vision, spirit and ambition.

If Coleman is fit, instead McAleny or Kennedy who the bookies for some reason give very short odds on scoring for every game...

If the loan agreement stated that the loanee MUST feature in each game then that player would be in the starting line up (or come off the bench) by virtue of the agreement and NOT because of the manager's selection.

Have I explained that a little better?

No manager would ever agree to a loan agreement which superseded his choice of team selection. Which is why it doesn't happen.

Not trying to score points, just explaining why your suggestion isn't feasible.

If, for example Lionel Messi was offered on loan to other clubs on the proviso that he played every game then I'm sure most managers would go for it because they'd play him anyway. The same principle obviously applies to lesser players at lesser clubs - if the manager is bringing him in with the intention of playing him every week then he isn't being dictated to he's making a choice in advance.

“It’s only fair to them that he gets first-team football.

“You’ve got to be straightforward with each other and I couldn’t guarantee him that.

“But David was great about it and so was Ross and he’s going to be a cracking player in the next few years.”

Says it all really, he agreed to play him, then went back on his word.

Now we have two thirds of a team sitting on the bench watching the first eleven at the weekend. I must confess I don’t know much about the Everton players outside the first team squad, and where and when they play. Do the non-playing first team squad players get regular competitive matches in midweek somewhere? Maybe David Moyes has to ‘rest’ them on the bench because they’ve played in midweek, and are ‘too tired’ to play for him?

Wouldn’t it be better for the likes of Ross Barkley to be coached to play ‘the Everton way’ in a meaningful reserves competition, than to be sent to Leeds or Sheffield to be mentored by inferior coaches? Do other Premier league teams have this problem with their ‘fringe players’, or are they just more successful at finding placements for them with better clubs?

You can have him on loan as long as you play him every game.

I don't blame Moyes for insisting on it but I can't understand another manager agreeing to it.

What if he played shite for a couple of games?

I think the killer for Warnock was not being able to play Barkley against Spurs. Leeds players having a stormer and beating them 2-1 and then having to tell one of your players he's dropped for the new lad who's only here on loan.

We need bodies there's a really good centre half we can pick up on a free just now, adds to the 500 we've got already, lots of experience in Serie A guy called Per Krøldrup – sure I've heard the name somewhere before???

So, if this is our reality, how can the manager not use any youth/fringe players when they are our only hope of real progress on the field or financially? I'm not asking for Rooney every year. But Rodwell got us a cheeky £12 mil which allowed Moyes to bolster the squad and give us an outside chance this year at CL. How did this happen? He was given an opportunity to play and despite being very injury prone, his stock remained high enough for the Champions to pay us a handsome fee for his services.

Shane Duffy, Stones, Oviedo, Kennedy, Ross Barkley, Vellios, and McAleny are all prospects and nobody can really say how good any of them will be. However, playing them only will allow their stock to rise or uncover their weaknesses. It's a win win situation. We either find gems that will help the tired team on the field/improve our finances when sold, or we learn what their shortcomings are as players and can develop them accordingly.

This is a process. Do you guys remember just how shit RvP was 9 years ago? Had no idea what he was doing. Was constantly injured. Now he's the best striker in the Prem. That didn't happen because Wenger kept him in the reserves. It happened because there is a commitment to youth development at Arsenal.

Moyes should be more proactive in this regard. It's not like we've won a damn thing with all these old farts on our team anyway. We have nothing to lose.

What is the annual cost of the Academy which seems only capable of producing players for the lower leagues? Maybe we would be better closing it down and just buy in young players...

Form the qustion however you like, but I would bbe very interested to see how the local pride is these days...

I love youngsters, but they have to show energy and talent in order to develop.

'Now why would The Gob possible want a young energetic midfielder full off promise who might have a slight bit of ambition when he has a squad full of has been's out for a last pay check before retirement'

'Barkley was class when he played. How Warnock could play Brown or Austin - both of whom are utterly hopeless - instead of him is mystifying. Sounds like he could have had him for longer if he played him but he'd obviously prefer to player his average midfielders instead. Taxi for Warnock'

'cant guarantee him a game!!!oh my god what does it take for quality youngsters to be given a chance while donkeys like brown and austin get in the squad every week!warnock you are so out of touch with the fans and as a manager its time to go,retire or whatever your plans are but just go for the sake of the club and the fans'

'A quote I would have respected would have been,

He's done well, he's a smashing player but unfortunately here at Leeds there is no money at the club, no ambition and at the moment we are only interested in bringing in aged players on the cheap and selling our best talent. He wouldn't get a game David'

I do sort of agree with your point...but the sale of Rodwell alone has covered the funding of the youth academy for the last decade.

It does make me wonder though, Moyes sees the possibility of playing Barkley in the later rounds of the FA Cup, but won't even give him a 20 minute run out when he has him avaialble. He frustrates me so much.

As Jags lifts the cup (Neville being injured in an unfortunate gardening accident), Moyes is still fuming about the throw-in, which could have been oh-so-costly. A camera close up shows him muttering the words "Barkely, you will never play for me again, you badly barbered oaf".

Despite the injuries to Mirallas and Gibson, the personnel they have should've performed better. Spurs are not much and only Bale has put them where they are.

The stubborness and lack of enterprise by Moyes has held them back in my opinion and, if I was the likes of Oveido, Barkley, Duffy or Vellios I would be looking to another club at the end of the season because Moyes has shown he really doesn't rate them.

All a bit cynical, I'll grant you - players are not horsemeat, to be bought, sold and put in a budget lasagne - but it makes sense, and it would help alleviate our financial plight. It wouldn't do much for our football team, but that's another story...

Also Victor Anichebe has played well over 100 games and made his debut in 2006 so you've missed him as well. Apart from that, you're dead right though...

Also good to see John Keating bringing out the old favourite about having an abundance of centre halves, despite the fact that we're crying out for a decent one.

Seriously, we're 6th in the league, 6 points off Champions League football, and we're in with a real shout of a great cup run and it's full of people moaning about the board, the manager, the players on here. If we do win the FA Cup or qualify for the Champions League, I hope you lot all stay in that night and don't celebrate because you clearly don't think there's anything to be happy about.

And before someone says "People who think finishing 4th is something to celebrate are part of the problem" — no we're not; we're the realists who see the possible long-term benefits of it and aren't still comparing every player to Alan Ball while conveniently forgetting the Bernie Wrights and Bobby Lavericks that he was sandwiched between. ]
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I like Moyes but believe that they are ruining the lad for not giving him game time, sometimes you have to take a punt and the only route to improvement is to throw the lad in to work his way through his mistakes. This is especially critical given that we are burning out Osman and Ross could take the load off him. His natural position is behind Jelavic where he'll have others behind him to provide cover and where he can use his obvious strengths to add fire power where we currently have none. He has a good shot in both feet, can head like a bullet and has the flair to break down defences.

If you watch games now you can see that the good teams are attacking the area at the 'D' on the edge of the penalty box rather than pumping balls into the goal mouth, Lampard is scoring shed loads from there and Gerrard used to. I have a vision of Ross driving in shots from that area and picking up goals. It is far too long since we had a midfielder capable of adding a few goals and yet all teams must have one. Barkley could and should be that player.

It seems our friend Ally McCoist is using youngsters to help his depleted squad progress through the lower divisions and everyone is delighted with their contribution. Of course, with 30 players leaving and only 6 turning up for pre-season training it was a gamble he was forced to take and it will be interesting to see if any survive when Rangers return to the Scottish Prem.

Interview with Jose Baxter: “When you played in the reserves it didn’t really mean anything when you lost. No one was going to shout at you for losing three points. I wanted to play in an environment where you get punished for mistakes.

“I’d go and watch my mates playing Sunday League, buzzing if they won, gutted if they lost and going out afterwards and talking about the game. I missed that. You need that hunger and love of football to succeed. If I play well from now on, the contracts and offers will come to me. I won’t have to look for anything. I was never going to know what my level is sitting on the bench or playing for the reserves. "

Then ask yourself: "How on earth can this kid not be a first team regular?"

Then type Oviedo vs Norwich. Enjoy. Refresh your mind with the pure class that is was demonstrated on EITHER wing.

Then ask the same fucking question from earlier.

"Seriously, we're 6th in the league, 6 points off Champions League football, and we're in with a real shout of a great cup run and it's full of people moaning about the board, the manager, the players on here. If we do win the FA Cup or qualify for the Champions League, I hope you lot all stay in that night and don't celebrate because you clearly don't think there's anything to be happy about."

I understand your point regarding people who moan at the Manager and Players but what exactly will the Board have given towards any success we may have?

"Eugene do you really believe ANY manager would accept a loan agreement which allows someone else to pick the starting line up?! This is in effect what you are suggesting. That simply does not happen"

My answer was basically that one player ISN'T the 'starting line-up' and that yes, it absolutely does/can/should/did happen, if he's MY player and you want him on loan.

Me (189) - "I am suggesting (which was CRYSTAL clear) that if you want OUR player for ONE month, then (unless he's injured or nobs the manager's missus) he plays".

You respond (264) - "Eugene I'll break this down for you. If the loan agreement stated that the loanee MUST feature in each game then that player would be in the starting line up (or come off the bench) by virtue of the agreement and NOT because of the manager's selection. Have I explained that a little better? No manager would ever agree to a loan agreement which superseded his choice of team selection. Which is why it doesn't happen".

Well actually, no - you have not explained ANYTHING better as you are simply wrong.

Fact: Regarding 'team selection' (nb: a red herring as we are not ACTUALLY talking about the selection of 'the team', but rather ONE loan player's inclusion in it') an agreement WAS made that Barkley WOULD play.

This IS the complete opposite of what you're suggesting. That "No manager would ever agree to a loan agreement which superseded his choice of team selection. Which is why it doesn't happen".

But don't take my word for it, this is from tonight's Yorkshire Post.

"Leeds and Everton agreed that Barkley would be used regularly during his initial month in Yorkshire, and he started three times against Barnsley, Bristol City and Cardiff City. But despite United expressing an interest in retaining him until the end of the season, his return to Everton became inevitable after Warnock named him on the bench at Wolverhampton Wanderers on Saturday and restricted him to an appearance as a last-minute substitute. Warnock spoke with Barkley and Everton manager David Moyes prior to Leeds’ clash at Middlesbrough – a match which was scheduled to be the last of Barkley’s loan – and he claimed it was “unfair” to extend the youngster’s deal with several teams interested in taking him elsewhere. The United boss said: “I spoke to David and Ross but I can’t guarantee playing him – and I did say I would do that when I took him".

See that bit that says "..and I did say I would.."?

It was on THAT basis the deal was done.

It was the Leeds manager agreeing to David Moyes having a say in (to use your expression) their 'team selection'

Clear enough?

"As Jags lifts the cup (Neville being injured in an unfortunate gardening accident), Moyes is still fuming about the throw-in, which could have been oh-so-costly. A camera close up shows him muttering the words "Barkely, you will never play for me again, you badly barbered oaf".

...made me laugh a lot.

You're overlooking Victor Anichebe. Came through the academy and is definitely a first team player. Jack Rodwell was as well (until we sold him).