Ross Barkley: It’s all up to himself

Let's hope the young man listens and responds. He does have the gifts, and we will definitely need him.

It would make sense to be honest for the success he had early last season (even GQ Magazine listed him as one of the 100 most valuable things on Earth for Christ's sake!) to have gone to his head. Talented players usually have a maverick streak and don't always want to listen, so perhaps this explains it to the conspiracy theorists on here and Moyes isn't a Ross-hater after all?

(and all dribbles are silly when they don't come off - see Seamus).

Seriously, I really think we need to nail what I see as a herd mentality re his passing.

We've had a couple of wins recently and I'm grateful for them, but in the weeks before this, our passing right throughout the side was CONSISTENTLY shite.

They were ALL giving possession away, all the fucking time, yet it's BARKLEY who has to stop making silly passes?

Imo, ridiculous, selective and inconsistent.

(and I have NO doubt his ratio of silly passes, when compared to those of experienced England International, Phil Neville, would be zilch).

As for Pienaar's opinions, well when he's on blob, I think he's a great linking player and I was really glad when he came back from Spurs.

However (Mike 908) I don't think he's anyone to be giving out advice.

I wince at all the God bollocks, I think he (ie: his form) is very inconsistent, he's been done for speeding (TWICE in 11 days), banned for drink driving, arrested for assaulting a woman (charges dropped) and charged with assault in S. Africa.

If he gave me advice, I'd tell him to fuck off.

Re Barkley, I am personally disappointed we have not seen more of him this season. I would have expected 10-15 appearances off the bench to get some senior game time under his belt. Either that or send him on loan for the whole season. Add to that, I'm also disappointed we've hardly seen Duffy, Vellios or McAleny as well....

He's spent virtually two seasons stuck in the ressies. What's wrong with giving him a semi-regular 10 or 20 minutes in a game?

Eugene is right about a lot of our regular first teamers being guilty of whatever Barkley is accused of, yet people just talk about him as if he's the only one doing it.

Neville, for example, still hasn't learned about being progressive in his choice of pass. Either he passes sideways, backwards or he gives the ball away. Often when he passes sideways, it completely derails our attacks. Yet all our players are asked to look up to him and you suspect he's one of the first names on the team sheet.

I can accept that our players are not perfect and need to learn and are going to make mistakes, but I'll accept it more from a young player earning £10k / week who is going to improve, rather than someone in their mid-30s earning £50k / week who is only going to get worse.

I'll say one thing. I hope Moyes will leave at the end of the year. If he does, I hope the next coach will have more belief in our academy and give our young players more opportunity.

We just do not have the youngsters that other teams seem to have. I've watched lots of our kids and they seem to have found their niche in lower divisions. For example: Vaughan, Schumacher, Bidwell and Baxter — none of them have shown themselves as any more than average.

We have not brought through a Walcott, Wilshere, Gibbs, Walker or Chamberlain.

As the loan was only for a month, Moyes felt he could of needed him back, shame that he doesn't get a chance.

Players like Duffy and Barkley will probably get more chances next season, I think where we are in the cup/league etc, Moyes doesn't want to take the risk when we have so few injuries.

If we had both CBs out then Duffy would start no question.

Of course it's up to Ross where he'll land in the game. Rooney made Rooney, Messi made Messi, Ronaldo made Ronaldo, etc with any great player. Barkley certainly has the gifts. What're you going to do with them teenager?

Look to Ronaldo. Rooney was full-ready in the womb. Messi started tearing it up just about your age. But Ronaldo, prospect he was, took a few years at Man Utd to really develop and blossom. He did it himself. We're all hoping you do too youngster.

Really?

Well, that it contained opinion/s you don't agree with, might well have disappointed you, but that's often the effect of a point-of-view different to your own.

Consequently, that you're disappointed by mine, concerns me not one jot.

As for it being unnecessary, well there is no post on any forum in the world that is 'necessary'.

My post is simply giving MY opinion and WHY I've reached that opinion, that's how it works (or should).

If you give your opinion and we disagree with each other, then we have a debate going - but please, skip the trendy teacher 'you've let yourself down' nonsense.

As for the content, you add that for me to castigate 'Peanuts' (fucking wince!) for past misdemeanours is 'frankly ridiculous'.

Um..yes..possibly.

The thing is though, if you had read my post properly, you'd have seen I DIDN'T castigate him.

I simply pointed out (listed) what his misdemeanours ARE and suggested that someone guilty of them might not be the person to take advice from

You don't have to agree with this, but the argument is solid enough and to call it 'frankly ridiculous' is..erm...frankly ridiculous.

By the way, you know what IS unnecessary - telling an Evertonian to 'keep the faith'.

I really don't see any of our younger players really pushing their claims in the same way that Rooney did. If they were good enough we would be seeing them.

If the likes of Heitinga and Naismith are first choice subs from the bench then that is an indictment... even Hitzlsperger gets a run out before any of the younger players and he was released by clubs much lower than us.

Lots of young players are playing in the Premier League and if Villa survive this season they will be a decent young side next season.

Name me another one ??????? In the same class as Wilshere, Walcott, Wellbeck, Sturridge, Gibbs etc etc.

HAS to be a red nose thing - a pound for every outraged response?

Ok, never let it be said..

"Ooooh...YOU! Grrr!!! TUT!!"

(good luck, hope you reach your target)

The teams that do usually bring through good youth players tend to go out and cherry pick the best young players, so it depends what you mean by brought through?

Could you include Coleman, because we brought him through quite young just like Arsenal and some of the players you mention Walcott and Chamberlain? but they came at a big price, unlike Coleman. If you include Coleman then you could include Baines and Fellaini as being brought through.

If were 19 years old with eight first-team appearances in the Prem, and a respected veteran with 275 appearances in top-level football and 61 for his country had advice to offer me, I'd hang on every word and say "Thank you!"

I certainly wouldn't tell him to fuck off based on his police record.

I would also point out that whatever his transgressions off the pitch, Pienaar is a pure professional on it, giving 100% for the team every minute of every game. We certainly have better players, but we have none more committed. I suspect that's what he's trying to teach Barkley.

Barkley's position is a number 10, an attacking midfielder at the moment. Fellaini's playing there, so Barkley wont start; No.

He's played on the wing, but he primarily plays in the middle, so that won't work; No.

Then there's the two centre midfielders. The way we play, they do not push up, their prime concern is defence. Can Barkley defend? No

So No threefold. He's not ready yet. No doubt hes got talent; I just hopes he fulfills his potential.

I will however pick you up on your description of Pienaar as "giving 100% for the team every minute of every game".

Disagree completely - in fact there have been a good few games this season where he has almost vanished up his own freckle.

As I said, I think he's a great linking player and I was really pleased he returned from Spurs, but let's keep his abilities (and application) in proportion.

I also question 'whatever his transgressions off the pitch' - as though they could never have an affect on performances on it.

I believe they absolutely can affect performances and in his case, from time to time, I believe they (must) have.

(his performance away at QPR this season, before he got sent off worried me a lot - like he was ill or..something)

Is it really so mad to suggest that if you're (regularly?) out on the piss and/or have serious criminal charges hanging over your head, your game (job) would, more than likely, in some way be affected?

Ok, maybe not by much but 87% isn't 100%

Much as I like him, I'm not blind.

To me his record of transgressions suggests he's not the 100% professional you suggest and that Barkley would be well within his rights to listen politely but take the advice with a pinch of salt.

(I said I'D tell him to fuck off but...that's just me)

I doubt we'll see signings of that value again at any point in the near future. One of the best players of the Moyes era despite the attempts by some to band him in with Phil Neville as some form of workhorse.

(no more than I would band Ali with Bruno)

What conspiracy theory are you talking about Karl?

The point of debate is referenced in your comment. How does DM deal with the 'maverick streak' and is it necessarily the best way to go about it?

On the one hand, there are not too many of the youngsters we have let go who have really gone on to do better apart from Rooney and Rodwell (potentially) and both of them were used more liberally than Ross Barkley has been, so there is no real evidence that the manager has made huge mistakes in his development of young players.

On the other (and this is what 'bothers' me) we have a number of decidedly average first team regulars who seem to be favoured no matter how inconsistent their performances might be, whilst on the bench or in the U21s the potential future of the club seems to have been labelled 'only to be used in case of emergency'.

I doubt anybody thinks the manager 'hates' Barkley (or Vellios, Duffy, Junior, etc), but some of us think he may be over-cautious at times with a group of youngsters who have yet to make themselves automatic choices.

Without another reliable revenue stream (above and beyond the extra TV money) then it seems likely that the money will run out sometime in the not too distant future. Unless we start to actually retain and utilise greater numbers of the academy products we will not be able to replace the relatively large number of current players who will be likely to be past their usefulness in the next few years.

What happens then if we haven't handled the transition from the old guard to the young pretenders in the optimum manner?

In US English, a freckle is a spot on the skin. Looks like it means something entirely different in your parlance. I can guess what.

However, where Pienaar is concerned I think you're equating effectiveness with effort, and I disagree. Pienaar's effectiveness is certainly inconsistent -- I think he's a poor passer and until a few days ago I'd have said he had the worst shot on the team. (Okay, so he showed me something on that one.)

But I'm never disappointed with his effort. In your words, I rate his application far higher than his ability. And I get the impression Barkley could take a lesson in consistent application.

Also, I don't know who wrote anything about Pienaar's foibles affecting or not affecting his play, but it sure as hell wasn't me. All I said was that if I were Barkley, I wouldn't let those foibles impact whether I listened to Pienaar's advice about how you make it in top-level football. If somebody knows more than me by a proportion of 275 to eight and they want to share that knowledge with me, I'm gonna pay very close attention..

But that's just me.

The only time Pienaar gives the ball away is if he is trying something audacious to unlock a defense. For some of the rest of the team a two yard pass in the middle of the park is a challenge. I dread to think where we would of been this season without him especially during the Mirallas injury. Naismith and Gueye on the flanks? Loads of points there.

Though I must say it didn't do me too much harm to be led astray at 19 by tradesmen.

Ross might have a touch of the Johnny Bigtimes so advice to go hard or go home is spot on.

From what I see if Barkley was a stand out at youth level then Pienaar has it nailed.

For that reason I would probably send him out on loan again to a footballing team that will play him every match in his preferred positions. Possibly Blackpool? It worked for Seamus.

I can't see him getting more than a few minutes here and there if he stays at Goodison.

Either you get it or you don't - either way, I'm not going through it again.

You say Ross MIGHT have a touch of the 'Johnny Bigtimes'?

Well yes he might.....and there again he might not.

He also might nob hamsters.....and there again he might not?

Sorry but might, schmight innit blood.

I see..

"Now look son, you need to knuckle down if you want to become a top player like me"

"Right..Should I ride around at twice the speed limit in a Ferrari at three in the morning?"

"Yes tha.....now look..er...that was...er.....DON'T BE A SMART-ARSE!"

As for you being 'led astray' by tradesman at 19 well..I..erm...great.

(Seinfeld: "not that there's anything wrong with it!")

I got it goin' on girlfriend!

(nb: we don't get to the semi and the MOB will make sure Moyes goes into the shitness protection programme - see what I did there?)

- HOCKTOOOOH! -

I SPIT on the Barkley Brigade!

It is well known that the Barkley Brigade have strong ties to the Moyesiahs AND the Apologists.

I'll stick with the Bandwagon.

The key line for me is: "if he pushes himself.."

Does Moyes think he's up to it? Thus far, it would appear that he doesn't think so, either in ability or application.

When/if he does get into he side, I hope he's not put under too much pressure, as this bizarre hype has been present ever since the Villarreal friendly.

If he's given a go, given time, and yes, given leeway to make his mistakes too, then hopefully he forces his way in next season.

I quite like the sound of 'Barkely = Ubermensch Mafia'. Otherwise known as BUM.

Talking of "developing" players (as some of us were on another thread), let's see Mr Moyes develop Barkely. If he does I'll purchase a fez, put it on and take it off again, as a mark of respect.

Pienaar says RB needs to push himself. So where the flipping heck does coaching come in? If it's all about pushing yourself, which it may be, then I was right in saying that DM deserves no credit for the continued good form of Baines who is, as they say in the trade, a "self-pusher".

Clearly it's a symbiotic relationship between the player wanting it, and the coaching staff guiding him on.

I thought your stance concerning Moyes's development of Baines was absurd, and I doubt Baines would have the arrogance to belittle the gaffer's involvement.

Before these three Championship players got the phone-call from Everton, who among us would have confidently predicted that Jagielka, Lescott & Baines would become England Internationals?

Baines cost us £6M, which for a LB 5-6 years ago was not a small amount of money. You'd have expected him to make a decent player, that he's turned out even better is obviously great.

Re Lescott, at the time he was considered one of the best CBs in the Championship and one for the future – Everton were not the only club in for him and we paid £5M for him at the time. Again, £5M for a CB, you'd have hoped he too would make the grade.

Both players obviously turned out better than expected, just saying that it's not that much of a surprise given they were already highly regarded before we got them – and we also paid £11M for them at the time....

I would NEVER have predicted Jags to get anywhere near the England team, mind you.

It works the other way, too. I do not blame DM for Jelavic's current poor run of form or, before that, for Rodwell's non-progress. I think there are players who could go either way – and that's where coaching makes a difference. Anichebe is the best example. He's come on this season, and if he continues with that then Moyes will deserve credit, because a lot of people (me included) didn't rate him. Barkley is another example.

Kev, David Moyes deserves his share of the credit. If his input is largely irrelevant, then what is the point of a football manager..?

It is totally fair to make the assumption that Baines appreciates the contribution Moyes has made in his career; same with Giggs & Fergie, Henry & Wenger...

Rooney was the perfect example of Moyes acting the spanner; Wayne was playing for England and still Davie boy wouldn't start him, week-in, week-out. He then joins Man Utd and Ferguson does the opposite.

Moyes has his favorites and won't change. I dare say if Distin or Heitinga get injured at the weekend, Neville will be playing centre half or, if he was fit, a 5ft-6in Hibbo — anybody but Duffy who must be getting frustrated at this stage.

Actually, the Jelavic example I gave was a poor one. That's more to do with tactics than player development. I hold Jelavic responsible for that, or the god of randomness. Although there is probably some truth in the idea held by many on TW that the focus on Fellaini has sidelined our CF, I still don't blame DM for that. He has to have the whole team in mind, not just one individual.

I am trying to be even handed here, giving Moyes credit where it's due and withholding it when (in my opinion) it's not deserved. Anyway, Up The Blues!

When it comes to unlocking defenses, Osman, Gibson and Baines are vastly superior, and from what we've seen of Mirallas, he is too.

Considering Baines gets a Premier League high number of crosses in, it's amazing he doesn't have more assists, don't you think? He gets lauded for his set-pieces but some of his crosses from open play of late have been terrible and overhit.

Being a terrible passer of the ball over 20 yards unfortunately applies to everyone in our team except Gibson, Heitinga and Osman.

'Mike, when I was 19 years old, I hung on the word of no-one and told people to fuck off as a matter of course'

You haven't changed at all, Andy! :)

In Baines' defence, this year Goodison has looked like a farmer's field. He is one of the best first time crossers around but you simply cannot trust the surface at the moment. It doesn't affect Pienaar as much as he cuts inside and hits an almost stationary ball.

I saw someone on here saying they used to think Pienaar had a poor shot on him 'til the weekend and his goal versus Reading. Well I'm afraid I still think his shooting is his major weakness. If he side-foots it, he doesn't get it off the floor. If he hits it with his laces then 9 times out of 10 it ends up in row Z.

Osman too, is utterly woeful from outside the area. As is Fellaini and also Naismith.

I'm a big fan of these players (excluding Naismith, obviously) but it really is a dimension that limits us going forward.