Fan banned in Saha race controversy returns to football

Are you condoning discrimination?

The scumbag insulted him purely on his country of origin. If we want to take a firm stand on racism and discrimination, this idiot shouldn't be allowed in. And, finally the "grass" did the right thing because, if he wouldn't have complained, he would have got away with it.

No wonder racism still exists in the game with attitudes like this.

I see the PC correct, tree hugging keyboard warriors are getting in their lilly-livered liberal opinions in early on this thread....

Well said Carl...

Nil Satis

Lets be clear - this is not some mad racist calling for a return to the dark ages.

He has said something negative and included Saha's nationality in the insult. He wasn't insulting Saha for his ethnicity, he was insulting his effort in the game.

I think it's a very dangerous road we go down when people like yourselves shout 'racist' without any understanding of a situation.

For many a year at Everton games, it rang round the ground: 'The best little Spaniard we know' – As I recall there was no mass outcry of racism.

Why is it acceptable to reference a person's nationality only in a positive light?

Maybe a few on here should report the away end next time we play Man Utd if they're so concerned. I would like to know how far it would be taken.

Ring any bells?...

Nick Entwistle
107   Posted 18/11/2011 at 19:50:04
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I said it was an insult - JUST NOT A RACIST ONE!

Besides there have been a number of posters on other topics referring to 'Scottish' this and that about Naismith and Moyes on a regular basis but I'm not aware of calls to ban them from Toffeeweb for any determinate period? So why is one person judged differently from others for saying similar things?

A 3-year ban for that is absurd.

Ross, you're saying you would beat him with a large wooden pole!! I'm disgusted and am campaigning for a ban!!;-)

Violence-free zone maaaaan!

10-year ban for me it is!

Well it gives people a chance to climb into their high horses, flaunt their liberal credentials and indulge their sanctimoniousness. Sibson acted like an idiot in a moment of frustation, fair enough. But a two-year ban? Suarez insulted Evra repeatedly and calculatedly and got an eight-game ban. Which one was proportionate?

My thoughts exactly. Give the bloke a stern warning or something but ban him for 3 years (5 if he hadn't pleaded guilty)...? Ridiculously OTT, if you ask me.

I'm 100% against racism and, in particular, will never understand the rationale of abusing, for example, black players on another team when your own team has black players you supposedly worship, but where do you draw the line? At race? Nationality? Region? City?

You hear "Geordie bastards" this and "Manc twat" that every week at football grounds and the bile spewed at Moyes ("Ginger c**t was a favourite) on this website in the wake of the Wigan game was embarrassing. But I wouldn't expect anyone to be banned from football for saying any of that at the match.

In this instance, the PC attitude went a step too far, IMO. I'd bet that if Saha were white or if Sibson had omitted the word "lazy" (thereby preventing the sensitive soul who reported him from projecting race into the equation where there was no racism implied), nothing would have been said or done.

Sometimes people take the piss out of things, like it's okay to call him a bastard but not a French one.

The supporter simply fell foul of the modern crime of political correctness. Advocating violence against him is misplaced.

Perhaps being banned from watching Moyes's dreadful football for 3 years was a piece of good fortune.

A three year ban was ridiculous. It's not as if his comment, "Lazy French Bastard", was in anyway inaccurate.

Well summed up,Lyndon.

"Fuck off, Rush, yer ugly big-nosed, turncoat, Welsh, kopite twat"

French? Check.

Bastard? Not sure.

Worst case scenario: it was two thirds fact and one third a little bit insulting.

The ground would be empty if such outbursts resulted in bans.

Racism = wrong. But emotional outbursts like this one aren't "racism" the way I perceive it. No colour was mentioned or even alluded to.

If the "grass" had young kids with him and the bloke was constantly swearing - I have no problem with him speaking to the stewards.

But if it was just what was stated - then it was a ridiculously severe reaction by the authorities. English bastards.

Welcome back Mr Sibson.

On the other hand, I do wonder in what other sphere of life it is okay to stand up and verbally abuse another human? If you didn't like the food in a restaurant, is it okay to stand up and scream invective at the waiter or the chef? Is it okay in a shop? On the bus? Driving?

I know worse, much worse, goes on week in week out in football. But two (or many) wrongs don't make a right. Some will argue that context is everything, and that in the context of football abusing other fans, players, coaches or clubs is perfectly acceptable, part of the experience or simply "banter". I'm not sure I agree or follow that logic.

What really upsets me is when I see, on television, a young fan's face contorted in hatred simply because an opposition player does something he doesn't like (often that just means the player being alive). Or when a player had to take a corner in front of opposition fans and they hail abuse, hatred and objects at him.

It's all part of the same thing, and it's not something I like about football. I think turning a blind eye to it maybe goes back to when football was considered a sport for uneducated working class proles, who were viewed as animals, treated as animals and expected to behave like animals.

Now fuck off all those and others like pious Nick Entwistle. Crass attitudes like yours are part of the reason why this country is in so much shit.

Oops, I have just banned meself for the next 3 years for a racist remark.

Put things in perspective when you hear all the monkey chanting in some countries. The fines UEFA apply are derisory.

Overall, it's symptomatic of football. If I walked up to someone in the street and shouted what can be heard at a football match, I'd be arrested. Within a football ground, it's funny and part of the match day experience.

Nice attitude and food for thought but... If/when I get ignored waiting to be served in Wetherspoon's when the bar is short-staffed or the staff are busy chatting to their mates or the girls with the big tits, I don't rage at the minimum-waged servers; I walk out – there's more pubs around.

However, I don't think I'd be so meek and indifferent if I had paid £30 to get in and the staff were not doing their jobs...

Funny how with football we (most of us) routinely have a go at underperforming players and certain opponents. I presume you've never shouted abuse at the opposition: eg, Gerrard, Ronaldo, Suarez ?

My wife is racially Chinese; to people who meet her, they think she is Chinese, but she has never been to China, can't speak Chinese and, even worse can't cook Chinese food. In fact, she is a terrible cook.

Anyway my point is this ethnic or racial abuse can't be tolerated. The Germans tried to ethnically cleanse their land regardless of their people's race. Make a stand here, it's the thin end of the wedge.

If calling someone by their nationality followed by a word such as "bastard" constitutes racism then I'd better go and get a pointy white hat!

Do I think Adrian Chiles is a Brummie twat? Yes! Why? Because he is a twat who happens to be a Brummie!

Do I think Frankie Boyle is a Scottish prick? Yes! Do I think all Brummies and Scots are twats/pricks? No!

What I don't condone is bringing people's race in to the equation, like that recent moron that got banned. PC madness!

A - he was lazy
B - he is French

so calling someone French is now racist?
I could understand it if he said the word "Black" as that can be deemed offensive.

But is calling a French man "French" really offensive?

OK, can someone please tell me what is okay to mutter or moan when Naisy hits the first man with a cross?? Can we call him a crap blonde... crap Scot.... crap ??? or are we not allowed to critise at all??

THIS WHOLE THING IS RIDICULOUS
People justifying the ban need to have a good hard look at themselves!!

Sewer Rat gets 8 games... This fan gets over 50 game ban.

Nonsense punishment. Certainly wasn't racist and a lot worse could be heard in the Main Stand at the Wigan game.

Disclaimer: The above is intended as a humorous jibe at Dave White's little mistake. He is not a White Supremacist and nor am I. I do know there are a few of you for whom a sense of humour is a distant dream so thought I best clear up the matter.

Unbelievable this guy even being brought up for it. If we got banned for things like this there'd only be you, Nick Entwistle and Chris Leyland at the match!!

It's hard to miss that Terry and Rat Face only get a few match bans for actual racist remarks and supporters can get life bans.

Political correctness gone crazy and people like you encouraging it. ['People like you' ... is that some sort of defamation?]

It seems Dave Sibson was made an example of, I've heard a lot worse said in the stands of loads of grounds and go not only unpunished, but unreported.

Where football falls short and becomes a joke is when punishments are not consistent. Suarez gets 8 games for proven racism, monkey chants at Lazio get about a €4,000 fine, yet a fan in apparent frustration says something he would probably never say outside of a football ground gets a huge ban that has less, if even any, racial connotations. It would be interesting to see how many fans of any team would get bans if there were hidden cameras in stadiums.

I think the length of the ban was extreme but it doesn't make the comment acceptable, but Dave can look on the brightside and think at least his first game back wasn't Wigan, or he might have found himself on the end of a few comments that would have seen him get three more years!

The amount of revenue courts could make is unbelievable, like a new council tax for football fans. PC brigade, absolutely ridiculous. If I had of been him I would never have set foot inside Goodison again. It is like the club are desperate to be seen to be doing something, to make up for the years of denial and inactivity when dealing with racism.

Everton would have had to tow the line and uphold the ban.

Once the police were involved, Everton's involvement with the issue ended.

It was a piss-take of a ban and I imagine if he was guilty then about 95% of the crowd should get banned most games.

You will of course get the hoity toity pc bellwipes crying racism etc, when it wasn't a racist comment. We all know what a racist comment would have included... the word French wouldn't be it. It would be the colour of his skin.

Ahhh! Now that's why I couldn't remember! Thanks for that (apart from the white supremicist accusation!)

Yes it's all coming back to me now....Saha....lazy...french...I'm not sure about his father though.

I wonder what the Punishment would've been if he'd said 'lazy french git' or something more PG.

What a sham that ban was, calling someone a "lazy French bastard" does not constitute racism in my book. And name a fan in this country who hasn't at one time or another called a player French this or Portuguese whatever that or Manc the other.

If they were giving banning orders for every so-called racist remark shouted every week, the grounds of this country would be decidedly empty.

The world has gone PC mad. The shouting of the N-word and other such filth is vile and has no place in society, never mind football grounds, but this ban was so over the top it was untrue.

Immediately Dave had been charged, and before he had been to court, the club took his season ticket from him and banned him from the ground – whatever happened to be innocent until proven guilty eh? That's where the club, in my opinion, were bang out of order.

The daft thing was that he was still allowed to go to Everton's away games until he was found guilty and, on one occasion, actually bumped into his accusers with nothing said either way.

When he was found guilty, he was subject to a banning order from all football grounds and travel to football – if England were playing away, he had to surrender his passport in the week before the game and only got it back after.

When the Olympics were on he got a letter warning him to stay away from all football matches – there's a lot more to a banning order than people realise.

If I were him, I wouldnt set foot in Goodison again but as he has watched Everton home and away wherever they have played including most European games (and has never even been spoken to by the Police) he still wants to go back... I would not be so forgiving of a club that had me found guilty from day one!

I am proud to have Dave Sibson as a friend because I know he is not a racist in any shape or form. (Although he is deffo not keen on Mancs!) It's good to read the debate on his situation and, while I don't agree with his dissenters, am more than happy to read their views too.

I'm glad his ban has been shortened and just hope there will be no more recriminations as he is a proper Evertonian.

The case of Richard Knights is absolutely atrocious and I'm amazed we haven't heard anything further about this in the media. Then again waiting for the Echo to take up the story would be like watching grass grow.

I'd be interested to know the latest regarding Richard.

Thanks for all that. It's interesting to get an insight as to how this silly episode has affected a decent man's life.

If he had have shouted something unequivocally racist then such a punishment would have been fair. However it is absolutely insane that a group of, allegedly educated, people sat down and concluded that this man's words warranted that level of punishment.

It's been said before but I've heard the phrase 'Fat Spanish Waiter' laughed and joked about in the media. What is so offensive about calling a Frenchman, 'French'?

If I were to offer a slight argument in defence of the club, I would say that they were attempting to dodge an issue that may have been picked up on by a wider audience. They simply cannot be viewed to condone racism in any form and, in view of that, took the safest possible option.

Sadly that is indicative of today's society. Everyone wants to be the first to shout 'racism' without really analysing the situation.

There's plenty worse things said at every football match every week and nothing is said.

Good to have him back anyway. Please pass on my regards, John, I'd be devastated if this happened to me.

Carl, I must also apologise to you unreservedly for ridiculously accusing you of condoning discrimination. Having read the article, I now realise that a 3-year ban was harsh on Mr Sibson for a comment that reflected Saha's effort in the game and not insulting him on grounds of ethnicity. I find it disgraceful that Mr Suarez only got an 8-match ban for a racial slur on Patrice Evra, and Mr Sibson got a 3-year ban for a seemingly harmless comment.

Once again, my comments were rash and uncalled for and I repeat again, I find violence abhorrent and do not condone it in any way. Apologies.

In my opinion, the law has rightly been expanded to included derogatory comments about nationalism in the broader interpretation of racial offences. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant... the offence is a fact. Legally, it is racism... and I'm happy enough with the evolution of the term..

As for fans who scream abuse at their own players on the pitch... I honestly think there's something lacking.

You come out with abject shite towards a person because he called a footballer who is French a "lazy French bastard" – he gave no mention of Louis Saha's colour or ethnic background – he referred to his country of origin, which in the eyes of the law was a racist comment – the law is an ass.

I'm glad the majority of decent honest non-racist fans on here have recognised that it was not a racist comment and have come out in support of Dave.

To the others ,it must be great to have never had a bad thought about someone because of their accent or country of origin – saints the lot of you!!

So, it's nice to read Ross Edwards (370) having second thoughts and having the decency and dignity to apologize. If only the other priests would do the same.

Can anyone explain the racism in that please?

The proportion of dim-witted retards amongst our lovely Engalund away fan is truly scary. All those Darlington, Bury, and Notts County mutants. Patriotism? Don't make me laugh but boy oh boy do these Grimsby fans think they are dye-in-the-wool patriots when they spout their racist trash-talk or kick a middle-aged Belgian in the head when he's already down on the deck.

The small of smallest consolation for me is that these mindless morons spend a flood of sponds on trekking back and forth across the continent to 'support' a bunch of mediocrities who have even less chance of winning a trophy than Everton do.

"Perhaps our roving Eaeennnnngaaallaaand reporter Kevin Hudson can mail in dispatch."

I'm flattered. Can I help you...?

Mind you, anyone who would spend significant sponds to watch Ingalarraaand's mediocrities in MG, well ....

I was interested in your views of the accusations about Rio racism given you were at the next away game etc. Nothing more, nothing less.