Moyes's vision to take Everton forward

The ageing team is no one else's fault, he's got young players but won't play them. It is a small squad made smaller by his unwillingness to play the youngsters, to the point were lads like Duffy are considering moving on but lumps line Heitinga are playing.

Another thinly veiled, "things will only get better, have you bought your season ticket yet" promo on behalf of The Dear Leader.

Why have you been holding the club to ransom for 3 months then you clown? Because it's clear you're angling for an increased wage or a new club. You obviously don't want to be here and you have run out of ideas and lost interest so you can clear off and take Round, Neville, Heitinga, BK, Elstone and the rest of them with you and the quicker the better.

Moyes out, Rijkaard in.

http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/File:The_Riddler_(BF).jpg

Moyes OUT!!!!

"I will wait to see where we finish in the league and FA cup before signing... I will wait to see what budget I get before signing.".... Wait a minute I was only bluffing, twatted in the cup... 6/7th place finish and no substantial transfer budget"

Pass me the company pen, Mr 'Best Chairman in the League' Bill.

"By the way, I am getting a rise am I not?"

oyes talks as much shit as a polititian. We have an ageing squad because that's what the manager gave us... Dickhead Dave speaks again.

"Because it's clear you're angling for an increased wage or a new club."

I thought it was obvious he is playing hard ball with Kenwright to make sure we have some money before he commits.

Correct. He doesn't need to "angle for a new club" since he will be out of contract at the end of the season.

Is it not pretty simple. Moyes has been dealing with fuck all resources for 11 years. He's taken the club to in and around the European places, the squad is ageing and needs replacing and he sees no point in continuing if he's not going to be allowed to do that.

Over to the board. I'm glad he's finally said it out loud.

Moyes will never manage a bigger club than Everton. This is the pinnacle for him. He will not leave to go manage at a graveyard like Sunderland. He wants to stay. Much like the last contract negotiation he went through – he had promised players like Timmy and Mikel that new players would be bought based upon promises that were made to him by the board. He couldn't be seen to be signing a new multi-million pound contract when he couldn't fulfill what he had promised – plus if he signs a new contract, he has no leverage over the board for funds. He knows the board are fucked if he goes. What other manager in the world could sustain a net spend of just over 1 million pounds a year? Almost impossible.

I’m not blowing the Moyes trumpet here, as he has consistently bottled it when it really matters – and that is why he will never be in the same category as truly great managers (Ferguson/Mourinho at Aberdeen/Porto) – but the fact of the matter is, he is staying. He is playing the bluff card on the board, and the board WILL give him the money rather than lose him. Fact. He will get his 20 odd mill plus the Fellaini funds.

To be honest – he deserves this chance to rebuild more than any other manager in the world.

You know as well as I do, when he talked about taking a 20% pay cut, he was talking about the football world as a whole doing so. He isn't going to do that on his own, as it wouldn't achieve anything. Even if he did take a cut, everyone else's contract is going up.

The big issue here is that Moyes is doing the right thing. Let's face it, we all feel let down by the board – none of us more than Moyes himself. He simply wants assurances from the board before he commits. If they can't give him those assurances, he'll be off. I have no problem with that.

The elephant in the room here is our board. They are our current custodians. My only reassurance is that they won't be here forever. The freeloaders and parasites need exposing for what they are. Moyes's contract stance is helping to do that. Amen.

There's an old saying or maybe I'm making it up, if you have to think about something too much you'd be better off not doing it.

I can't see what BK can offer DM that he hasn't already offered him and therefore cannot see what will change from now until the end of the season, of course CL qualification could alter the situation but even that is rolling the dice, as we could play a whole 2 games and be out of it like the last time we got there. The only other situation that could change is that a buyer is found or has been found. Maybe a contract can't be signed until the club is purchased by another party or until that party pulls out of buying the club.

Seven weeks time we should all know the answer, but it will probably drag on all through the summer and we'll do the usual last minute.com shopping 'spree'.

He wants it written into his contract that Fella and Baines will not be sold and he gets to spend approx. 30 million of the TV money about to flood EFC coffers.

Green and whoever could give a fuck how well the Club does as long as they can keep raking in the sheckles, which they're about to do over the next 3 seasons. So, I'll stick with Moyes is going.

If I'm even close guessing at his demands, Green and them are chuckling. Moyes leaving and whoever coming in will not affect the terrific cash windfall about to hit their pockets. Everton Football Club is just a something generates profit. For them, it could be Everton Football Widgets.

They don't care.

It's like Richard Gere in "An Officer and a Gentleman" -- "I have nowhere else to goooo" lol

I want him to leave just because it'd be more interesting if we had someone else. He hasn't done anything in 12 years except steady the ship (which is a big deal esp. in the first 5 years) Years 6-12 have been a replay of one another in my opinion.

The group plays us for fools every time. I wouldn't be surprised if this too were made up to build interest and suspense in the situation.

Greg, where that might be blatantly obvious to you it seems equally clear to me that this is an attempt to get those funds he's been craving. If I put myself in his shoes, I'd imagine I was the same. Imagine looking up and down the table at almost every club having at least some money to spend on players. It's a vital part of football and it's arguably his strongest area. And after all, isn't the transfer market the fun part of football management? I'm always looking forward to the transfer windows on FM.

As I read your post, it read as if, "watching a young child struggling with one of those rubix style toys".

You're one up on me brother.

Can't see Green agreeing to that, since he's about to pocket a mountain of cash for free. So, Moyes will go and someone else will be in.

Danny, to be honest, if he comes out talking shite about a 20% pay cut but won't put his money where his mouth is, given he knows more than we do about the financial shit creek without a paddle and leaking boat the club are in, he should keep his mouth shut.

The board too have over a decade of this form; they won't change overnight either — no matter how much posturing Moyes makes. Don't forget or think that Kenwright wouldn't shaft him in a heartbeat with an accompanying storyline like holding the club to ransom if it served his human shield mentality for keeping those happy-clapping sheep away from bothering him another 12 months.

Answer: you don't have one ginger.

Kneejerk? Kneejerk is Blackburn. Shameful. Opposite of knejerk? Giving someone whoever he is 11 years to abseil over mediocrity. This Moyes fella needs to go, it's been too long. It will benefit all concerned.

“We are making progress. I’m waiting on some information coming back to me and we’ll talk again when we get all that information. I’ve been given some indication of budget, but I’ve not been given the breakdown of it.

“We have a really good squad, a small squad but one that is getting older and we need to replace that and change it around.”

Seems fair enough to me. He knows the limitations of the squad and is wanting reassurances of his transfer funds so that he can try and help us push on. How can that be a bad thing?

He also said that he will not be taking a sabbatical. That's crucial for me as I'm not sure he will get a better job offer this summer and therefore convinces me that he will still be our manager next season.

He is what he is and we are what we are. A 2nd tier team that's hit the ceiling because of an incompetent board, old tiring players and a coach who really can't develop young players. We would be a MUCH different team if we had a good pipeline of youth coming through the ranks that Moyes would develop and play. That's his cross to bear and an issue that has gotten far too little attention

If we can see this, so can other teams. Like us, Moyes has also hit his ceiling and unless it's abroad, he's not going anywhere.

I agree that Moyes has his limitations but I don't see that it's his fault necessarily if the academy is not brining through enough players. To be fair to them it's an increasingly hard job especially.

4-0 up at home to Cheltenham.

Second half subs:

Hitzlsperger
Heitinga
Naismith

THAT is Moyes's youth policy.

Every man and his dog has seen how good Ross Barkley is going to be but we can't give him the odd 20 minute spell to settle in the team. I say Barkley, but it goes for McAleny, Vellios, Junior and others. I rate them very highly – but even if you don't, why are we not bringing through our own players? It's Moyes, he will be playing Neville well into his 40s.

"Part of the negotiations are about budget, but it's not vital as we have a great chairman and a great football club here."

Phony bastard, David. He is embarrassing himself with the statements after issuing ultimatums such as "We will see what the budget is before I sign." — Now it is not vital to him signing?

A new man at Goodison Park may change things but we can never tell but certainly Moyes has nothing new to offer. He has had his moments without being spectacular and sometimes his methods have really rankled the fans but he did it his way which is all any of us would have done.

He has shown us to be a passionate manager but rather dour and resolute with his tactics and team selections, particularly this season, which promised to be somewhat better than it has turned out to be.

The Wigan game showed how bad Everton can be which was on the cards after a number of previous inept performances and reflects the inconsistency of these players and the questionable ability of Moyes to motivate the players, week-in, week-out.

I forget who said that.

At the moment we simply can't tell quite how good these players are and how big a risk playing them might be. Though like you I would much rather see Barkley and Oviedo then Naismith and Hitzlsperger.

"If in 10 years time Barkley and Duffy et al are plying their trade in the lower divisions then maybe it would appear they simply weren't good enough."

------

It could also be a sign that they have been mismanaged.

We have had many players come through the ranks as massively talented youngsters, only to faulter at the final hurdle. You couldn't ask the academy for much more. The problem seems to be that transition into the first team.

A lot will depend exactly how you coach them. Are they coached with the managers safety-first philosophy? Or are they allowed to express themselves?

Can they take the shackles off, as Jags states?

Please explain how the owners are making a profit from a club that is losing around £20mn a year?

'Operating costs'?

Which of these is true? It can't be both unless you somehow think that we acquired players of such natural talent that they've managed to survive from the age of five through over a decade of bad coaching to still knock on the first team door.

Some people will just have a pop at anything even if it means contradicting themselves on a daily basis.

The kids lack hunger and technical ability compared to their overseas cousins. Clubs and agents have them believing they are worth millions before they have even played 20 games.

Meanwhile Moyes's back-pedalling is increasing in velocity as he tries to find a convincing and face-saving way of saying that he is staying even though there will be no transfer budget of any significance, and of course he has no better offers on the table from his host of admirers.

Get ready everyone for at least five more years of Bill 'n' Dave. Can you handle the excitement in store?

Or you may be amalgamating two different arguments purported by many different people.

I would argue that we have a great academy that seems to excel right up to the first team - where development ceases.

Who are these ex defenders coaching the academy then?

Irvine?
Sheedy?

1. My first 2 lines are a direct response to your dismissive post @ 774

2. The OP and thread is about Moyes' vision for the future. Are we to understand that this is a vision for 7 weeks only?

If not then speculation about the duration of the vision and its potential for fruition are relevant, as are any views on what he is really up to when one minute he says, "I'll see if I'm still here..." and the next he's telling us what we can look forward to in future campaigns.

I respect your view on this point (whilst disagreeing on the reasons behind the failed transition) but not everyone here has the same consistency of viewpoint and this along with who should be the next manager are the main points where it's raised. If there's a thread about the academy certain people are saying how bad our coaches are in comparison to the rest of the league; if it's a thread about Moyes suddenly we have an amazing academy and he is wasting it. Martinez is a hero for some for working under financial constraints but then the same people refuse to recognise financial constraints when they launch into an attack on Moyes.

Nick I don't think Moyes is outlining a vision for the future here as the thread title suggests. He's saying he wants to move us forward in the best way he can, if that means leaving at the end of the season because the funds are insufficient for him to do that then so be it. If that means staying and using the funds then so be it. He's saying that he needs money to freshen up an ageing squad if we want to move forward. Nothing revelationary here.

I said it on here months ago, he will 100% definitely sign his new contract. He is the highest paid employee of the club now; he will go even further ahead when he signs his new contract and sells Fellaini.

If we have no money, it's because:

A) Moyes is spending it all on wages for useless fuckwits like Neville and Naismith
B) Moyes is not using our youth team or proactively rotating the squad.
C) Moyes pressured the board originally to take on lots of shady loans to support his transfer dealings, so we're paying huge interest costs.
D) The board are mostly incompetent muppets who are unable to grow revenues sufficiently and are willing to take on loans at shitty interest rates to support a manager who won't use our youth team.

With regards to Moyes contract situation, I'm not his biggest fan but I have always believed his stance to be about forcing the Board to find funds for team building.

It's all very well Kenshite making statements like 'David is the one who decides who comes, who goes and who stays', what that doesn't cover however is the situation whereby Moyes is told by Elstone and the Board that he has to sell somebody because we are in dire financial shit, or sorry David we can't afford to sign anybody this window because we haven't got a pot to piss in, as has happened over recent years, remember the 4 windows without a purchase?

Moyes has his shortcomings and we all know them, however, it is the entire Board who are the ongoing problem, it is they who we need to piss off!!

So everything is Moyes's fault, then?

We are in the top six despite a negative net spend over the last five years. To me that's a real achievement. We have played some exceptional football this season but the squad now looks shot, in the main because Moyes has not been backed properly. Yes, he has made mistakes. But Kenwright and the Board have made many more.

Phil Sammon (765) and Paul Andrews (770) you make it sound as though footballers are completely autonomous. I imagine that they actually have a fair bit of free will. They may have to play in a certain style to some degree, but I can't imagine that's going to haunt them for the rest of their career.

A few mentioning our coaches who are ex-defenders... I hate it when that comes up. It's as if they don't understand football as a whole and the need for team play and scoring goals just because they were a defender. It's an absolute fallacy. Wasn't Wenger a defender? Using that logic then surely those that didn't play/hardly played shouldn't be any good either. Mourinho and AVB seem alright to me. Surely it's more down to the individuals philosophy? Granted, a defender may be less likely to be a proponent of total football than forward players but it doesn't mean they are good of the concept completely.

"The board are mostly incompetent muppets who are unable to grow revenues sufficiently and are willing to take on loans at shitty interest rates"

So you get an A+ for reading comprehension. ;-)

As for the football, yes the quality in the last 12 months has often been very good, but you also need to bear in mind the dire, awful shite that we've had to put up with over much of the last 11 years. Clueless players who play like its the first time they've set foot on a pitch together, playing stationary, hoofball, head-tennis vomit. What Moyes and his team work on during training baffles me, unless its pointing, floaty crossing 101 and running channels.

And yes, we do finish in 6th-8th most seasons, but we spend about 8th highest on our team in the league if you take into account player wages, so really Moyes is only delivering slightly above average, albeit on a very consistent basis.

Today's game showed that Moyes can adapt when two of his best players are unavailable. that is what being a great manager is all about....adapting to the circumstances and getting the players to execute the plan.

Those of you who think that the grass is greener should look at the many teams who are wallowing in mediocrity and look to OUR team as something to emulate.

Moyes is acclaimed by every pundit and neutral as a man who has been punching above his weight for a board of mismanagement which verges on the criminal.

I have watched My club since the late 40's and DM is the best manager we have had for years.

The fans are the only real investors in the club.
They pay to watch, pay for merchandise and buy the season tickets.
We have taken in far more than has been spent on transfers.
We are out matched in the money market by teams that are fighting relegation.

If you did your job half as well as DM you would be promoted and not castigated.

The worst stuff we've played was the tippy tappy crap that was the standard at the start of the 2 previous seasons.

When were we last a hoofball team? Really?

Was about to post something similar. There are some people on here who wouldn't recognise a decent team if it kicked them in the goolies. And their patronising little digs do them no credit. We have a good team and an excellent manager; if the Board backed him properly he'd be really successful. Unfortunately, it ain't gonna happen.

Afraid it is no myth.
Check out the TalkSport website, they did a stat survey earlier in the season regarding which teams had played most long balls. Everton were in third position behind West Ham and Reading has having played the highest amount of long balls.

The one thing Moyes has had at this club is stability. He knows he won't be sacked and even though he has had little money to spend, he is aware of the budget as he has mentioned several times before.

Moyes only plans for the near future like the next season; if he was thinking about four years in advance then he would be bringing in some of the reserves so they would be ready to claim a first team position and save the club money that they don't have or are unwilling to spend. The current format of giving average older players new contracts and more game time, therefore limiting the more gifted younger players, is not sustainable over the long term which is where we've come to now.

Time for a change; we need a new manager with fresh ideas. Someone who has faith in players with ability and can forgive a young player for making a mistake. We need a manager who can change a whole philosophy at Everton, someone who wants to attack and have his players being able to retain the ball.

Moyes has had his time but, as I said at the start of the season, he will sign a new contract. The reasons I gave then were that he is already at the biggest club he could be fortunate to manage; he's under very little pressure from the board or fans and he's on a ridiculous wage.

One thing I would say, and I don't know how this will go down, is that there are a lot of young names being touted for the first team, surely not all can be used as regularly as we'd like? Barkley is the main one, I'd like to see Oviedo and McAleny, lots of support for Duffy, Vellios and Junior, while I've also seen some wanting Garbutt and Lundstram given a try, although to a lesser extent. I do wish Moyes would use a few of these a bit more (we've used the least players this season in the Prem – 23) but I don't see where he can give all of these regular game time.

We'd all love the youngsters to be given a decent turn – for me the youth aspect is one of the most exciting things in football altogether, but realistically how many games would they all be able to get? I suppose ideally a few of them would be gaining some loan experience while the more ready ones would be getting at least a bit of Premiership experience, but then wasn't Stubbs saying he wants them all together in the U21 side? I think I may have gone in circles there a bit.

Only clubs with infinitely more resources than Everton are above us and in spite of having the most insipid board in the club`s history, we are blessed with a manager who is pugnacious, brave and visionary. The fact that better run clubs than ours choose not to employ him is our great fortune.

Moyes would have been visionary in my eyes if he had ensured the players were correctly motivated and prepared for the Wigan FA Cup tie, if he and his players had have done their job properly, we would have been just one game away from probable European qualification.

As it is, we are going to have to have one hell of a run-in to achieve European football next season. The good thing is that it is in our hands, but to perform at the level required between now and the end of the season is going to be extremely difficult.

When in his 11 years here has he been brave? Unless I've missed something. He's certainly not a visionary either. 1 up front at home, 10 men behind the ball when 3 down against Wigan, rigid tactics, week-in, week-out, not making a sub until the 70th minute, an ageing squad, and furthermore, playing 36-year-old Phil Neville in midfield when he could play Barkley or Oviedo.

If he had any bravery he would not have have surrendered the Semi-Final against Liverpool and he would not have surrendered a 1-0 lead v Reading or against Norwich. He never finishes teams off and seems to demotivate the team at half time with this KITAP1 tactics, where we gradually retreat as the game goes on.

I mean, look at our game against Oldham, where they battered us for over half an hour, against a League One side who we should have slaughtered by 3 or 4 goals. Just because he changed his formation in one game, it doesn't mean he is the Leonardo da Vinci of football does it?

If he was a visionary and brave he wouldn't be here, as he would be at Barcelona or a big European side, with a number of trophies in his cabinet by now.

He's tactically inept, a coward and average in every respect, if he thinks he can waltz into the Chelsea job he's got another thing coming, because does he have the tactical nous to win the Premier League or the Champions League? No. Thought not.

Finally Richard, can I have what you're on because it must be good stuff.

I have just lifted this post from another forum:

"We spend less than 1% of City and Chelsea's spend. Less than 2% of the shite, Spurs and United's spend. We have been utterly dwarfed by the spending of Sunderland, West Ham, Aston Villa, Newcastle and Stoke. And Arsenal have the potential to afford any player in the world as they have the set up in place.

For us to be in the top 7 is a massive achievement. Every blue should be so so thankful for Moyes, yet he's the bloke that cops it when we have a few bad games."

To me, nothing could sum up our situation better. What do you think? (And please, no patronising little digs such as the ones you have just aimed at Richard.)

7th is all we're aiming for is it? Just because Man Utd, Man City, Spurs, the RS, Arsenal and Chelsea spend more? So when Swansea, Bradford and Wigan went on their cup runs the fans thought "We can't go as far as we can as we spend 1% less than Arsenal, City, Utd and Chelsea." That's a pathetic arguement. We might as well say that we won't bother in any competition next season as 7th and a quarter final is all we can hope for.

Moyes's money excuse ran out years ago Carl. He's got the squad and if he was more adventurous we would have beaten the likes of Man Utd, the RS, and Chelsea away, which he hasn't done in 11 years.

Answer me this: If we didn't have Moyes in charge, would we have won a trophy by now? If we didn't have Moyes, would we have won away at any of the big 4? And, if Moyes wasn't here, would we be in the top 4 by now?

We should stop blaming money for our underachievement and failure every year, and blame Moyes for letting us down on the big occasions so often.

Read it again, mate. One per cent OF Chelsea's spend, not one per cent LESS THAN Chelsea's spend. Money dictates where you finish in the league; sad, but true.

And no, we don't AIM for seventh every season, but it is unrealistic to EXPECT any higher, given the financial constraints. (I can recall an Everton captain stating - before the start of a new season - that he would be glad to finish sevenTEENTH.)

The fact is that Moyes has raised expectations to the point where fans like yourself are unsatisfied by finishing seventh. But the lack of money imposes a glass ceiling that precludes anything better. I am sure that Moyes is as ambitious as you are; I am equally convinced that the Board do not share that vision.

This year he cocked up the league cup by underestimating leeds and while the FA cup laid out the red carpet for us with the fixtures the night before Wigan I and others predicted on TW what would happen because we'd seen it all before.

He's had 11 years of stability, he inherited Rooney and he has had money - most of those clubs you mention have lacked stability and certainly didn't have a Rooney - he hasn't had it great but he certainly hasn't had it bad.

He's not a complete manager he chokes in the big games.The league gives you a chance of redemption the cups don't we are doomed to "same old same old" with Moyes and I'm not interested.

But isn't that exactly what the Managers job is to prevent? Read the dressing room, see who is and who isn't up for it, motivate them, get inside their heads and get the best out of them, build their confidence up, tell them they can stuff the shower of shite in front of them, not take a knife to a gunfight and if need be make the difficult calls and put them on the bench if he thinks their not up for it, not play the same players week in week out irrespective of everything. And finally, if they shit themselves out on the pitch, then do something about it before the 70th minute, be proactive, not reactive, be bold and positive not cautious and negative.

That is what a good manager should be doing, IMHO of course.

Great post, spot on. In the preparation for a game it must make a player feel 10 foot tall to hear his manager tell him he is taking a knife into a gunfight.

I mean if the quarterfinal against Wigan was a "big" game, it stands to reason that he has at least won two "big" games, does it not?

You apologise for the players all you want and shift all the blame to Moyes, I'll spread it around if you don't mind.

We really need to hang on to Moyes.

Truly desperate stuff.

Exactly. Look how much the other lot have spent and look where they are in the table. Moyes is an excellent manager and we are lucky to have him.

Look at Arsene Wenger. As time has gone on, he has ignored the obvious need for change in trying to stick to his principles and he and his club are suffering for this.

Alex Ferguson is ruthless and when he needs to change something he does it. Nostalgia and being nice mean nothing to him. Yes, he is an argumentative sod who has alienated any number of players but he is a winner.

With Moyes you just get the impression that we could be sitting here in ten years time with the same tired old arguments.

A team that recoups no money but has bought two players per season for a million each has a higher net spend than us even though Moyes did €15 million on the Belgian with the afro alone. Distorted numbers only prove the old adage of "lies, damn lies, and statistics".

Wigan, however, had to see the blame shared. There were players who. if their shorts had pockets, would have had their hands in them. Whether that could be predicted in advance is debatable but after the game it must be stamped on. The performance against City suggests it was.

Tony. Moyes has won some "big" games he could and should win more.

"Look at Arsene Wenger. As time has gone on, he has ignored the obvious need for SPENDING in trying to stick to his principles and he and his club are suffering for this.

Alex Ferguson is LOADED and when he needs to SPEND something he does it."

Fixed it for you 😉

"If Moyes doesn't win the derby but hand out his customary 3 points I'll rather he not sign."

What if we play well but lose?

http://www.everton.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=314631

With April Fools Day and Easter coinciding, we thought we'd rustle up an egg based yoke for everyone, so we had a look around for Billionaire's who have made their money from egg farming and came up with Ukrainian Oleg Bakhmatyuk!

Read more: http://www.everton.vitalfootball.co.uk/article.asp?a=314778#ixzz2PI9kWSZT