Why Sunderland defeat will actually help Everton's bid to catch Chelsea and Spurs

I don't think you can possibly make the leap either that Moyes only wants us to score "1 or maybe 2" per game. Are you saying that if arsenal are 3-0 up against us at half time then Moyes wants us to lose? I'm sure you see the flaw in your thinking.

Given the squad that we have, I think we are about were we could/should be.

Spurs are widely touted as having a deficient strikeforce for where they are at the moment. They have dempsey, adebayor, and defoe. Stronger than our line up at present.

The main reason for our lack of progress is down to players losing their form, injuries and a small squad. Its not down to Moyes being negative like you say. Just look at the first quarter of the season when we were playing some of the most attractive football in the PL, we had some of the best stats in europe also. What do you think Moyes did to change this? do you think Moyes took the players to one side and said "come on now lads, stop playing all this attractive football! you know we only play negative hoofball here". The reason for our demise were injuries to Gibson and Mirallas, then pienarr and osman lost their good early season form. All teams who are challenging for top 4 need a big enough squad to cope with injuries and players losing their form.

Moyes has irritated me with some of his team selections though, our fringe players might not be very good, but his continual faith he has kept with Neville, Naismith and Heitinger is what's annoyed me the most.

We had a run of great football with shitty luck - Reading, Newcastle, Fulham, Norwich. Games to be proud of how our team played. We've taken points off the big clubs and performed well. We dicked Chelsea but they got the breaks , what can you do?

We lack the edge which top players give you, and we leak points because of it.

I agree Moyes could of made better use of his squad this season, but the fact is, Moyes just doesn't get enough backing from our board. I agree with you that Moyes is a cautious manager, but that doesn't make him a bad manager. George Graham at Arsenal was very cautious and look at all the success he had.

I would love some manager to come in and get us playing like Barcelona, but it just isn't going to happen.

I think Moyes did the right thing holding on for a draw against Arsenal the other night, because we were so under the cosh the last half hour and we'd run out of steam. Our best chance was in the first half when we were on top in the game

I agree Moyes could of made better use of his squad this season, but the fact is, Moyes just doesn't get enough backing from our board. I agree with you that Moyes is a cautious manager, but that doesn't make him a bad manager. George Graham at Arsenal was very cautious and look at all the success he had.

I would love some manager to come in and get us playing like Barcelona, but it just isn't going to happen.

I think Moyes did the right thing holding on for a draw against Arsenal the other night, because we were so under the cosh the last half hour and we'd run out of steam. Our best chance was in the first half when we were on top in the game

I am no avid supporter of Moyes but his tactics have not been to blame this season, individual errors have. We either miss great chances or commit comical errors at the back. Osmans miss at reading when it was 1-0, all the chances missed at Fulham ( Jol said we were like Barca that day and were unplayable ), Chances missed at Norwich, Pienaar miss at Arsenal, Anichebe miss at Spurs. All season we have not been able to put games to bed, sometimes down to bad play but mostly because of individual mistakes.

The other factor has been bad refereeing decisions at crucial times. Take the home game with Newcastle. Ok we concede in the last minute but a poor decision stopped us going 3-1 up. What about the Penalty against Fella at City or the Stoke game where if the referee had done his job we should have had at least 1 penalty from the Fella/Shawcross challenges. Ok Fella should have been sent off, but if the referee gives a pen then that would not have happened!

Moyes counted on Jelly getting 20 goals this season, which if he had we would have walked into the top 4. Look at some of his glaring misses this season, his alone would have gotten us an extra 6 to 9 points.

I know they are his players and he is culpable but he cannot plan for everything!

I remember before he came, every season was a relegation fight. Breathing a sigh relief once we got 40 points.

I don't know about others but I believe that if (and I know its a big 'if') Moyes had been given £25m before this season, we could have won the league this year.

Expectations are higher every season and DM hasn't matched them. We always get close to achieving something then Moyes bottles it, Semi Final v the RS, Saturday v Sunderland, Wigan in the FA Cup, Leeds in the League Cup.

I know that under Wally we were expecting a dogfight but we expect better and Moyes hasn't delivered. Considering the many quarter finals, semi finals and European campaigns we've been in it's down to Moyes bottling that he hasn't won anything.

If we were Sunderland we'd be delighted with the guy but we're not, we expect better every year and especially this season we have underachieved massively.

In the Wigan he might not have told not have told Neville to fuck it up (he can do that all by himself) but he did pick him ahead of Gibson. That is as big a sign as there can be that Moyes was ore worried about what Wigan could do to us rather than what we could do to them, fucking Wigan.

In the semi final we went 1 up and slowly retreated as Moyes sat back which cost us the game, he did that against Reading, Fulham, Norwich and Oldham, the first three costing us vital points which would have put us securely in the CL.

Moyes has had countless opportunities in 11 years and bottled it each time.

History never remembers the losers.

He has but in terms of entertainment we're still in the dark ages.

Ross, he went on a 5-game unbeaten run which was undone by Baines's moment of madness.

Plus, we went out of the FA Cup due to 3 freaky minutes.

We ended last season on 56 points, but reached the same number after just 33 games this season, so how you can say he has come up short...eludes me.

"We should be in 2nd chasing Man.Utd."

I agree. We should also be twatting Barcelona 4-0. All it takes is a magic wand.

Has it though???

The Cahill role.....
When Tim Cahill burst on the scene he was a midfielder who ghosted forward to help the strikers. He was compared to Paul Scholes as he arrived late into the right places. Moyes sees this and create's a 'Cahill role', which is no longer a midfielder arriving unnoticed, but a second striker with limited creativity.

Fellaini
When we were on fire at the back end of last year, and the very early part of this season, Fellaini was a midfielder, albeit an advanced one. He often pulled defenders out of position as no one knew where he'd turn up. Moyes sees this and plays him in the 'Cahill role', a second striker, easy to pick up with limited creativity.

Barkley
Finally someone with creativity who can play in the 'Cahill Role'. Dropped.

This is one example. Neville vs Wigan, Saha and Cahill, Arteta Right Mid, Yakubu running the wings, etc....

I'd rather have a team that has limitations but a future than a team that should be up there but, largely due to inept tactical nous, that constantly disappoints.

Even when we kept going a goal down, we believed we could win. Slowly though, we got stifled, we nullified Fellaini's goal threat, we persisted with players out of form, we made stupid defensive substitutions and before you knew it, we were back to defending 1 goal leads.

This is why so many people are starting to dislike Moyes, not because he's a bad manager, he's not. But because he doesn't know what to do with a good team. I'd love him to stay, but with a decent coach and tactitioner next to him.

Three goals in as many minutes IS freaky!

I quote your comment in post 085 "We have only scored 50 goals or more 3 times under Moyes, in 11 years."

Ross, we have scored 50 goals or more in each of the last 7 seasons.

Please explain where you acquired your facts from. Or maybe just admit that you fabricated them just to lend credence to yet another silly rant.

And "we should be in second place chasing down Man Utd for the league" made me spit my cheerios all over my keyboard thank you very much. Its frankly a miracle that we are in the hunt for 5th place when you look at the feeble net transfer spend and wages that we pay as a result of being run by a complete amateur in Kenwright.

Anyway, please advise where you got the stats about scoring 50 goals only 3 times under Moyes or accept that you just...plain...lied.

But 14 draws and no Jan investment have done for us.

We win 4 out of those 14 and we are 3rd

We spend a bit of cash in Jan and we are 3rd pushing 2nd.

All ifs and maybes yes, but it was there for the doing of.

It was that close.

Sigh

2002-03:48
2003-04 :45
2004-05: 45
2005-06: 34
2006-07: 52
2007-08: 55
2008-09: 55
2009-10: 60
2010-11: 55
2011-12: 51
2012-13: 50+

Looking at that, it proves you are correct but from my point of view it shows that in the last 3 seasons Moyes has become more cautious and negative.

He has come in 3 stages, first 3 seasons he was cautious but our teams were poor, especially 2005-06 with 34, then in the next 4 seasons he became more attack-minded, then in the last 3 seasons he has reverted to type.

I want us to be scoring more than 60 goals a season, not scraping 50 every year. Goals meant points, and what do points make? Prizes.

There's still four games left this season, which could easily see us near 60 goals.
Also we scored 56 PL goals in 2009-10 which shows a consistency rather than a rise then fall.

If we had a goal scorer worth his salt you might find that this season's tally would be a lot higher too, what with Jelavic managing to miss sitters approaching double figures over the last 8 months.

Sorry but I don't see how the correct figures shown show a more negative approach at all?

11 years nearly at the club and he cannot find a goal scorer "Worth his salt".

That is criminal in itself, either that or he basically sucks all the confidence out of them with his defend first, channel running ethos.

I took your advice and looked back at a post after the Utd game (one of the only ones with 'predictions in the name). I reckon about 30% of fans either predicted, or believed it was a possibility, of finishing top 4. About 30% said 5th and about 40% said 6th.

So I'd say quite a few fans did believe we should be challenging the top 4, even those who predicted 5th would have expected more of a challenge.

Face it, Moyes has cost us too many points with his tactical ineptness, his poor substitutions, his lack of squad rotation (your not telling me we couldn't have rested Osman or Baines for at least 1 game) and his stubborn persistance to persevere with something that isn't working.

We beat Southampton 3-1, how many more times have we beat a team by 2 clear goals between then and QPR???? Compare that to the back end of last season. The second we look like we're doing well, Moyes wants to score one and defend the lead. We might not do as well under a different manager, but we won't do any better under Moyes.

And as stated by both myself and Steve King, 60 is a decent possibility. And that is without scoring more than 3 in any single league game.

Fair cop! We've spent a bit of money on front men over that time to, so I can't wheel out that old defence....

Just consider the strikers who can`t hit a barn door and the defenders who switch off in the last few minutes of each half because that must be down to Moyes's coaching and tactics. He trains them to be like that.... or how else it could it happen?

Oh, by the way, he actually wants them to be 6th rather than any place higher. I fecking ask you, how demented some people are!

Notice the trend here Doddy:

Fulham: 1-0 up and lost 2-1
Norwich: 1-0 up and lost 2-1
Reading: 1-0 up and lost 2-1
Oldham: 2-1 up deep into injury time: drew 2-2.

It's a coincidence in each of those occasions that Moyes caution and sitting back led to those results.
I know you love him and think he is faultless but he is mainly to blame for us messing up every year. Call me "demented" or deluded but that's ironic when you sit in your Davey Fantasy World, in which he is completely absolved from blame or criticism whatsoever, where 7th is deemed successful and getting to quarter finals and bottling is deemed as overachieving.

But we`ll have to see who`s right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992%E2%80%9393_FA_Premier_League#League_table

I believe Moyes's attitude changed after the Newcastle game, we pressed really high and were hammered. Weir and Stubbs from then on lived in the penalty area.

Our defenders have really improved but our ethos hasn't. Round was moved on by the smoggies because they thought him too negative which compounded things when Irvine moved on.

The tactic issue has been there always. Remember the Villa game when a world-class 30-odd-year-old Dion Dublin put them 2 up? Moyes went to 4-3-3, we equalised, reverted back and lost.. Man Utd: 3 down at the break, changed again got to 4-3-3, reverted back and lost...

His half-time talks used to galvanise the team, they don't anymore. I don't want him gone for the sake of it, but, he's never been the Messiah some would like to think. I would like him to stay IF the backroom staff were changed.

My expectations are not as high as you think they are. If I would have said we needed to win the Quadruple next season then I'd understand but I just want us to win a trophy, League Cup would suffice, an away win at the Sky 4, and a top 4 finish next season.

It's not impossible with a manager like Rijkaard next season but, due to Moyes cocking up year after year, we have not achieved this.

Hand picking games we have lost points is equally selective. Everyone drops points and everyone concedes leads. Evidently we lose less than most, but don't let that record distract you from reeling out more carefully hand picked nuggets. There's an argument against Moyes but highlighting a few league defeats just isn't it. It doesn't make any sense.

The problem with these snippets is that they are always overridden by the bigger picture. Always knocked down my a bigger counter argument, more convincing because it's based on a whole season, or seasons. His record in the top division is completely beyond question. Picking odd games won't distract from that. We all know he has weaknesses ( the semi against Liverpool was excrutiating) but ignoring the blindingly obvious makes your argument defunct.