Man Utd crash and burn in League Cup

...... and WellbeckÂ’s playing.

Mike - itÂ’s getting better. Just so you know youÂ’re not alone.

MU now 3 down. Moyes still not doing it for them. Ah... I see!

3 - 0 Mike !! ;-)

Tony, just saw that. 3-0!!!

If that was us (ahem) I'd be embarrassed.

It'll make the phone-ins worth listening to.

Eugene, funny thing is I didn't even know the game was on.
The second round of the League Cup is so beneath us.

4!

Ha Ha Ha A good result for United, enabling them to concentrate on ... Premier League survival.

This MK Dons scoreline (3 - 0) is the one we want for us at Goodison Park this weekend - with EtoÂ’o and Lukaku both scoring !!!

Ha, ha, ha!
I wonder if DM is peeing himself laughing somewhere in a darkened room.
By the way, Celtic are in the Europa League now.

Eugene - it's 4-0

Hahahahaha, great omen... Van Gaal is "OutMoyesing Moyes" (hopefully the name of the last chapter of Louis' autobiography).

Welbeck and Hernandez look pretty shit to boot !

Maybe Moyes wasn't such a terrible manager after all.
So far Van Gaal has played 3 drawn 1, lost 2 vs Swansea, Sunderland and MK Dons!!! Conceding 7 goals in the process.

4 - 0 Manure really are shite!

Only down side is that smug rs manager that MK Dons have in charge, bet we go there next.

The first Saturday of the season I got all the papers (I was on holiday) and everyone of them tipped Man Yoo to finish in a CL spot. Just shows you how shite Journos really are; what were they basing it on. 4-0 lets hope itÂ’s 5

Really does show what a genius Ferguson was. He literally took worse than average players and just steam rollered the league year after year and did well in Europe.

He won a title one season playing O'Shea and Giggs in centre mid! Just shows that you can have whatever players you want but the confidence a manager inspires is everything. I can't believe though that Van Gaal won't be able to get Di Maria, Rooney Mata and Van Persie to play some decent football.

Just think if two of their top line attacking players get sidelined for an extended period of time they could be n the relegation battle. The thought of them getting relegated is to priceless. Oh what egg on the glory hunters. Maybe I'll have to watch the game on delay.

They are lucky we signed their best player or it could have been double figures.

The Dons played some good football and the big lad up front who scored the last two goals really shook the Man Utd defence up. Welbeck put in lots of effort and the team were badly let down by mistakes in the Man Utd half.

I would take Welbeck on loan (if possible) as I am sure Roberto would get the best out of him. He is pacy and has good control so I just hope we get him, but I would not bet on it happening!

I wonder if Di Maria got a return ticket?
You can just see him scanning the Premier League table for 'M K Dons', his finger starting at the top and working slowly down the page. Then turning the page. And again.
Happy days.

Perhaps the Eds should alter the title of this thread as it has an unintended link to that particular clubs history - fortunately I'm sure they will understand it is just an everyday term rather than a slight on their tragic events, unlike some clubs we could mention.

On a less sober note, is it true that LVG bought Di Maria before the MK Dons game and after the match wished he had bought a crate of Tia Maria?

Well spotted on the title if the thread, Patrick.

I didn't come up with it but, as you say, I'm sure it was completely unintended. Now that it has been highlighted it looks terrible in the context you refer to.

James M. (19) didn't hurt SAF that he his fair share of Howard Webbs in the ranks to help out. When I first started watching in 2010 one of the first things I noticed was how much help manure got from the refs. In fact most of the rich teams got it but their edge was extraordinary.
Wellbeck on a loan nothing else especially say like Cleverly as an add on. Can't believe RM was actually toying with the idea of spending ٦ million for him.

Bar a few youngsters in defence, the team against MK Dons included several internationals who were regular contributors in the first-team squad. I know it's a wearisome subject to broach, but this goes to show the scale of rebuilding required at OT and that OFM wasn't really given a good chance to build his own team. MU supporters used to dominating everything in sight - mostly bandwagoners - can't quite grasp this concept.

The tired argument of OFM taking over a team that won the league at a relative canter is factually correct but fails to take into account the full picture. Robin van Persie's phenomenal season was the main reason, with usual challengers Arsenal (less RVP), Chelsea (managerial changes) and defending champions Man City (Mancini's unravelling) failing to put up a significant challenge.

SAF served OFM a big one, choosing short term solutions to an ageing squad (return of Scholes) with no continuity in place. At the same time OFM's transfer plans for renewal were scuppered by new man on the job Woodward, leading to panic signings like Felli and Mata.

Though the man has regrettably belittled our great club in some instances, I wouldn't like his achievements in stabilising our club in a difficult period, including a few top-five finishes, be discredited by all the 'out-of-his-depth' descriptions hung over his head by many trophy-hunting MU whiners. I heard someone calling in to Talksport post-MK Dons who mentioned that the damage had already been done when OFM chose to dispense with much of the backroom staff at OT. Incredulous! I don't see Meulesteen and Phelan having a long line of suitors, why don't they just call them back?

Love watching Giggs looking as lost as Phil Neville last season. Sinking ship that club. A wise old United fan said to me years ago, "no club can keep this up forever." I have waited years for this.

@ Peter Holmes # 16 No Peter the Shite are Shite Man U are just arrogant SOB's

It would be interesting to see how Martinez would have fared had he been given the Man Utd job. I think he would have done really well but still not as well as Man Utd fans would have liked and got the boot by now.

They're going to have to suck it up for a while and give someone a chance to build a team again else they'll lurch from one very expensive managerial change to another and win nothing. I personally don't see LVG there for more than a couple of years though so looks like that process may have even begun already.

All eyes will be on the Burnley game on Saturday morning now mind :)

Why couldn't this happen to the RS? (Does that make me bitter?)

It is funny though :)

I think they will probably come good though once LVG finds his feet and those expensive players start playing together

Mike Green #31 -
"They're going to have to suck it up for a while and give someone a chance to build a team again else they'll lurch from one very expensive managerial change to another and win nothing. I personally don't see LVG there for more than a couple of years though so looks like that process may have even begun already."

Mike - that is exactly what Man U were like between Matt Busby and Alex Ferguson. A cup side that sacked their managers every couple of years because they did not win the league. They never had any continuity, the big name players they bought were never as good in a Utd shirt as they had been elsewhere, and although a dangerous opponent in a one off match (the '85 Cup Final for example) they were never serious title challengers for 20 years.

This is just a return to normality - their blip is over. Liverpool fans will recognise the effect as the same has happened to them since Souness became their manager (plus the freak CL win in Istanbul)

Mike Green #31 -
"They're going to have to suck it up for a while and give someone a chance to build a team again else they'll lurch from one very expensive managerial change to another and win nothing. I personally don't see LVG there for more than a couple of years though so looks like that process may have even begun already."

Mike - that is exactly what Man U were like between Matt Busby and Alex Ferguson. A cup side that sacked their managers every couple of years because they did not win the league. They never had any continuity, the big name players they bought were never as good in a Utd shirt as they had been elsewhere, and although a dangerous opponent in a one off match (the '85 Cup Final for example) they were never serious title challengers for 20 years and were relegated once in that period.

This is just a return to normality - their blip is over. Liverpool fans will recognise the effect as the same has happened to them since Souness became their manager (plus the freak CL win in Istanbul)

David Moyes..."waiter, do you have any schaudenfreude on the menu ?"

Just watched the match on Be-In sports which allows you 8 days to watch a match.

If he wasn't a know looser I would think Johnny Evans would be under investigation for match fixing. First goal of the match a 2 yard pass in the box to Reeves of MK who fed Griggs for the first. Guilty of the next two as well for lazy defending.

Schadenfreude? Not for us... his YouTube clips make him look terrible.

Absolutely David #35 - Ferguson's successor(s) have been left with a poor squad, a fanbase with very inflated expectations and a commercial juggernaut which will not accept a period where profits drop and the brand is devalued - all contributing to huge pressure to get results in a very difficult period of transition.

Enjoy! :D

Think I must be a one-off. I've always been against the RS, Arsenal, Spurs, Leeds Utd and Newcastle Utd, but I've always liked Man Utd. Always will do. Apart from when they play us, of course. They are bitter rivals of the RS and there's no way in the world I am going to stand shoulder to shoulder with that bunch.

You're not alone Harold - I think up until the late 80s there were many similarities between Everton and Man United as clubs. They usually tried to play attractive football regardless and there used to be a healthy respect between the two even if we have never loved each other as supporters. As you say if we can't rub our neighbours up the wrong way as often as we would like the last couple of decades have shown that the men from OT are more than capable of doing so or at least up until the last 18 months.

Yes Patrick, last season was a trying episode but, thankfully. it didn't last long and is now in the history bin.

Yes Patrick, last season was a trying episode but, thankfully. it didn't last long and is now in the history bin.

I also agree - and have historically at least not disliked Man Utd. I'd hope Man Utd beat the rs every day of the week and, as the rs' main rivals, I came to kind of appreciate their success relative to the other lot.

However, in their current period of transition, Man Utd look less and less likely to challenge the rs in the short term. That task now resides with Chelsea and City - and hopefully us if we can do some damage (at least 3 points) to them on the pitch this year.

That 'support' of A.N. Other team is very transient.

Some people will take the 'moral high ground' and say they couldn't care if the rs win the league as evidenced by the thread on here towards the end of last season.

Not me. Bitter and blue. And I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks of that, even the ghost of Dixie Dean himself.

However, I'm enjoying the (temporary) fall from grace of Man Utd with a glass of wine in hand. They've taken more points off us in the Premiership era than anyone else. A fall from grace for the rs would be celebrated in a much more lavish, health damaging, Las Vegas style extravaganza. And for much longer.

When I was a young lad I used to sort of like United as my "second team". I think it was because 70% of Ireland supported them anyway!
But despite SAF's masterful management, I just started to get fed up with them "winning all the time" (or nearly all the time). A bit like how I got fed up with Schumacher winning F1 all the time too.

I have the impression that there was a healthier respect for other teams in the old English Divison 1 but it seems to have petered out in the new Premeirship era that has been dominated by the megabucks-ed few.

Howsoever - Everton's rebirth is about to shake all that up!! Of course we have been shaking at it (along with Spurs) for over a year, but things are gonna get interesting for us now.

I'd love us to win the Cup this season - just to give it all a damn good shake!!!!

Carling cup third round draw coming up. The round we normally get knocked out!

A good run in this competition all the way to the final, then win it will do for starters. Followed by a strong finish in the league and push for fourth place.

Probably get the rs away with clatterberk as ref.

Swansea!!! Oh well, we've got the FA cup and europey league to look forward to.

No worries there Colin. Got decent record down there and doubt they will play full team. Done them in fa cup last year.

Onwards and upwards. COYB!!!

What's all this love in with Man Utd?

Have a word with yourselves unless of course you don't mind Scousers being continually labelled as thieving, rat eating scum in any number of 'witty' songs emanating out of that set of fans.

I'd love to see them relegated again. I'm loving seeing their fans get a nice icy bucket of reality thrown over them. Long may it continue.

Karl Masters - spot on. And I don't buy this crap about Liverpool-Man U being the main rivalry. Which do you think the average Red Shite fan would hate most; us or Man U winning the Title? Well, I'll modify 'average' to 'Scouse', and I'm sure they would prefer Man U winning it. This 'Liverpool-Man U' rivalry is a Sky/Money thing.

Further to above, for most of the last fifty years, the vilest hate-filled rivalry was Man U-Leeds when Leeds were good.

I'm with the last few poster on here. Up until last year when you my fellow TWebbers filled me in on the diabolically shame that is the Red Shites, Man Utd was the team I hated the most. Certainly here in the States before FSG bought the RS, you would have thought Manure was the only team in the EPL.

Hate list now stands as RS first and then United and Arsenal. Arsenal not so much because they pipped us but more so because they are the refs' darlings now that SAF is gone and their fans. Most obnoxious biased fans in the league. Most teams in the league have a few fans that you can have a give and take argument with not the Gooners. Their team is always right, their players never foul and they're all world class.

Mike #53

For me, football is all about:
(1) Everton succeeding.
(2) RS failing.

The purpose of all other teams is to serve point (1) and point (2). There is no place in this model for international football though the model can loosely be applied to media "pundits" and, ahem, "experts" even though many of them can be classified as "no marks" (see below).

Any temporary "neutrality" towards other teams is based on them fulfilling their obligations to point (2). In other words, I'd rather have one of "them" winning than the RS, hence any transient "neutrality" towards the Mancs et al ("they"/"them").

However, if "they" fail to deliver on their obligations, they are classed as "not fit for purpose" – ie, "no-marks".

I hope this clarifies the situation.
For further information, please contact my legal team.

Karl,
Don't they have a Scouse captain, now?
Or is that like calling that American actor, Anthony Hopkins, Welsh?

As for when Man Utd play Liverpool – I want them both to lose but always, ever, in any circumstance, ABL – the bitter, arrogant, up-their-own-arses, victimised, deluded bastards.

Tis the natural order and the way of things.

Yeah this "special rivalry" between Man Utd and Liverpool is completely media invented. There is some truth to it outside the UK because so many bandwagoners "support" these two teams and they don't know the history of the clubs or understand the nuances of UK tribal rivalry. But that offshore rivalry is entirely skin deep. Fact is Liverpool have not been rivals to Man Utd on the national stage for many years, and last season Man Utd were not rivals to Liverpool.

I would say Man Utd have more historic rivalry with Man City and Leeds Utd than with Liverpool. Chelsea's long term rivals are Fulham. Arsenal's is Spurs. Newcastle and Sunderland. Everton and Liverpool. Villa and Brum (and maybe WBA), Derby and Forest.

David,

I always thought Chelsea were rivals with West Ham but believe me, Fulham have no rivals. If any, Brentford given the years they've both spent in the lower leagues. There's a reason they have a neutral seating area. No one really bothers about them.

I am absolutely loving Man Utd's demise. I started getting into football (and supporting Everton) proper around 1988-89 at the age of 9 and it wasn't long before them horrible shits were dominating the domestic game and I have suffered countless abuse hands of big mouth Man Utd fans.

Being a Lancastrian as opposed to a Liverpudlian the Manc fans have always been everywhere around me crawling out from under every rock. For this reason I have always hated them much more than our Red neighbours. (I'm sure if I lived in the city and had to put up with constant RS abuse I would think differently)

When Moyes went there, I was gutted but understood his reasons. I couldn't help but think of Ned Stark leaving the comfort of Winterfell and heading off to the snake pit of Kings Landing. They both suffered similar fates.

Because of my respect for OFM, I couldn't quite bring myself to properly enjoy Man Utd's decline last year but now my hatred is back with a vengeance and I am loving every minute of it. I fear their bad start won't last for long but their days of domination are over.

I was neither here nor there with Man Utd but I can see myself smiling more when I see their results.

I even found myself shouting, "Welcome to the Premier League Big Head!" at the screen in the pub when Van Gaal grid was shown at the final whistle against Swansea.

I will never have the same feeling though as seeing a bad result for the Redshite.

A lot of people already writing Man Utd off. It’s too early. Don’t get me wrong, they can’t fall far enough in my eyes... but under Ferguson they tended to start slowly, too.

Okay, 4-0 to MK Dons is pretty alarming but I honestly think they will be at least competing with us come the end of the season.

Every dog eventually has its day and I will not be drawn into gloating at another teams demise. Unfortunately, as everyone knows, in this day of huge finances Man Utd will buy their way out of trouble and will not suffer relegation as they did before the Premier League came into being.

When there were level playing fields, many teams who are now in lower divisions won titles and trophies because there were no big money teams to reign over us.

I would love to see Man Utd continue to struggle for a few more years but it wonÂ’t happen as money talks loudest.

Exactly Trevor. Poorly managed for a number of years. Yes they won a league but there was no future planning... they got what they could out of the older players and the squad aged and went stale.

Most teams in that situation would face a lengthy rebuild. They just spend a couple of hundred million. I wonder whether LVG will be hailed as a genius when he eventually spends enough to get it right?

Throwing money at an ageing team that's going backwards. Sounds like the Utd of the 80s. Buying players like Remi Moses for over inflated prices and only winning the odd cup along the way. If LVG fails this year he will get the boot too and the cycle will start again. They have created a corporate monster that has forgotten how to be a football club and now they are paying the price

I never actually minded Man United that much. Until the last year or so, when they started throwing money at the team, their spending was not as bad as likes of Chelski and City, and they didn't have as many arseholes as Liverpool, or act in the idiotic way Liverpool did (The Suarez racism scandal in particular). I also thought Howard was a pretty good deal for us, as well as Saha and Gibson (probably facilitated by the Moyes and Ferguson relationship). They had some arseholes of course, as everyone does (Roy Keane is a horrible individual), but I thought they played attacking exciting football and took some real risks on youth during their the last 20 years. I put part of the schadenfreude over their recent fuck ups down to their previous success, rather than too many legitimate gripes. I still dislike Liverpool more (obviously), City, Chelski and Spurs (I think they've had some arseholes too, esp Levy, and have wasted the kind of money we dream of despite being our direct rivals). I'd add a few less threatening teams to that list too. I didn't even begrudge Moyes going, until he started acting like an arsehole toward us as United manager during the transfer window.

That said, now that they are acting like idiots in the transfer market, it is entertaining to see these troubles. Di Maria is a magnificient footballer, but they've paid 20-30mil more than this worth. Mata is great, but he was very expensive for a player who Mourinho didn't value, whilst Shaw and Herrera have come well over the top too, as has Rojo. Their massive sponsorship deal has given them a real problem, because they will lose sponsorship money if they miss out the Champions League again - I think getting top four will be worth 50-60mil to them this season, rather than the 25-30mil it does for most clubs. I think that has caused this desperation, that and the idiocy of Woodward whose ineptitude has impacted on both Moyes' and Van Gaal's ability to sort out the problems of Ferguson's legacy. Ferguson was a genius, and has to go down as the finest manager of the Premier era, but he left United deep in shit. The squad was too old and too bloated, and that last title was utterly unrepresentative of the squad's ability. The likes of Rio, Vidic, Ferdinand, Nani, Anderson, Young, Cleverly all needed phasing out, as getting rid of them in one goal has created an almighty problem, whilst Carrick looked a lesser player last year even if that had been the result of sustained injury problems. Now Van Gaal needs to put together a team with a World class attack and a less-than-World class midfield and defence (Albeit one which will be massively helped by the returns of Shaw and Carrick from injury) and get them to play as a cohesive unit. At the moment, they look anything other than cohesive, and the impotent passing football resembles exactly the type of approach which typified the final months of Moyes reign (post the Fulham, or game of a thousand crosses, which effectively ended Moyes' reign as a representation of just how much he had lost). I also expect that we will see Van Gaal return to a 4 at the back, as he will probaly use Di Maria, Mata, RVP and Rooney (behind the striker) as a front four. It will be intriguing to see how they perform this season, but unfortunately, I still expect them to finish above us. They've no European football, or Capital One cup to worry about, and concentrate on getting Mata, Di Maria, Rooney, and Van Persie firing in the league. By the way, I'd put yesterday's result massively down to Van Gaal: United need time to gel as a unit, and they needed a win: why change pretty much every player and put the squad at risk? this result will have just increased the pressure on the club, and severely dented the confidence of several young players. A 4-0 could not be predicted, but losing to a league 1 side whilst playing a team of players not use to playing with each other could be. Van Gaal, so far, has not impressed, and needs to get going soon because in a few weeks United's fixtures get alot tougher.

When IÂ’ve finished hating Liverpool IÂ’ve got no more hate in me for any other team except maybe Liverpool Ladies.

Have to admit that as a non scouser my dislike for manoooo has been far higher than that for the rs for a long while.

Like many people, I got bored of them winning title after title from the mid 90s and constantly being lauded in the press. I especially could not/cannot stand beckham and how he was made to be some super human player and gods gift to football when actually the PR machine behind him is the only reason he is where he is, most over rated player in history.

Last season was satisfying on so many levels; our own relative success, manu's demise and Moyes being shown up for the nothing special manager that he is. However, Moyes is gone now and manu are shite - they may improve a bit but highly doubt they will be anywhere near the title and will struggle to challenge for a CL spot this season. They're dropping too many points against 'lower' sides and will get shat on when they play the top sides. Need to rebuild the whole defence from scratch, Rojo and Shaw are not enough. Buying a new team will take time and they will need time to gel - likely no CL for them next year too.

The more manu go down, the less relevant they become and the less I give a shit about them either way. So now the rs have gone back to the top of my dislike list. Don't really have any others as I don't mind Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea (obviously not when they play us). Only want them to lose as it helps our league placing, not because I dislike them.

After 20 odd years of hating manu, its actually a very strange feeling at the moment as they become more and more irrelevant. (Early days I know but a couple of seasons out of the CL and that commercial brand is going to take a nose dive, never mind missing out on up to100m in tv money.)

Manu will struggle this season, Spurs are a work in progress and Arsenal's one proper striker is crocked until xmas - we need to seize this chance and get on a good run over the next couple of months.

Yuk. It's a bit like a Man Utd love fest on this thread. Hate them. They are as bad as Sky. They believe they are important... News flash: they are history.

I detest Man Utd. Not as much as I detest the RS though. The only time I want Manure to win is when they play the Redshite.

i can’t really believe there is a thread about Man Utd losing a game to lower league team. How about starting one for Villa, or Burnley or Leicester or QPR?

Rob, I think you need to start reading from the top. As it was happening, there were simply a glut of posts (does that surprise you?) fouling other threads, so we took the instigator's off-topic post and moved it here – our General forum for other football stuff. (Appropriately toitled "ToffeeWeb's "virtual pub" where Blues can discuss anything football but not necessarily Everton.)

Lo and behold ... Over 60 posts from your fellow Evertonians! So perhaps you shouldn't knock it... Just sayin'!

Someone will always find something to moan about.

So here goes......

Being described as ’the instigator’ really is a bit shoite ( to keep the oirish theme going)

:)

Forgive my choirlishness but fu@k UTD. I for one am revelling in their demise, long may it continue. People seem to think that in football arrogance is a voirtue (LVG).You get what you give.

Glad we have Roboirto!

I thought Ferguson retiring was obvious. ManU reverted to being just another club.

Mostly because the Glazers have a long track record with their NFL club in Tampa Bay. ManU supporters can expect the same.

As an Evertonian, I delight in their demise specifically due to their "outrage" at the hiring of Moyes. "He only managed Everton".

Haha.

Moyes would have re-built their team, which the current grandpa won't.

So fuck them.