New England Captain

Regardless of Rooney’s qualities as an individual or player I would have preferred it if he had have banged in all those club goals in the Blue of Everton rather than the red of United. I can understand some of the stuff that gets thrown at him but I think that any player in any era who becomes close to topping the all time list of goalscorers for their country deserves a modicum of respect if not necessarily adoration.

Let’s hope that his son is a more gifted and more rounded individual than his dad and of course that he becomes an Everton legend which is what Rooney would have been at any other time in the club’s history. I sense Wayne himself will look back in 20 years time and realise that all the money, fame and medals he has attracted won’t replace that feeling of what might have been if he had stayed at Everton a few years longer and helped his boyhood club out on the pitch - having said that what state would the club have been in if he hadn’t have been around to sell in the first place?

The fact that Rooney has been made England Captain is indicative of what is wrong with the national team at the moment; we have no born leaders on the pitch.

Rooney is Captain material about as much as the cheese sandwich I’m currently munching on.

But who else is there?

Germany have at least 5 players who have the right qualities to wear the armband.

Judging by this appointment, England have precisely zero.

Nick
I think you are being a bit cruel on Rooney and over sensitive to his transfer to Man United. Rooney was the English player of his generation, a goal scorer and as confident on the ball as any player I have seen in recent years wearing an England shirt.

I doubt he is captain material for his club or country but I honestly wish him well. The absence of Steven Gerrard will give him a boost, for me Gerrard has been the biggest let down for England with his attitude and demeanor. I get the impression he inspires no one and sows discontent within the camp, no evidence, just observation.

If I was a young player with Rooney’s potential I may have also taken the same track. What would have happened if he stayed no one can know that. He may have attracted a better class of player to Everton or he may have just wasted his years coming somewhere between 5th and 8th in the premier league with no CL football, no winners medals and a lower salary.

Rooney was never going to be a Messi or Ronaldo, he is a different type of player. Both of the above are two of the greatest players we will see in our lifetimes and its unfair to say that Rooney’s wasted his potential, when only the newspaper hype made him out to be in their class.

You perpetrate this myth that Wayne Rooney is fat... where this comes from I have no idea. He is stocky, solid built and muscular but he is far from fat. Leave out the digs at his build, it shows ignorance and lack of respect for a good (not great) footballer.

Good luck to Wayne, as another scousser takes the England captaincy; lets hope he does better than the last one, however with the current manager and the quality of the squad I doubt it.

You can’t polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter.

IÂ’m sorry, a sad sillly OP ten years on.

Move on FFS!

He left us a while back and is still today an Everton fan.

When he is 74 it will be are result he will look for first.

Such sad bitter ranting and raving.

AND his goal ratio for England is absolutely top-notch - 40 goals in 94 appearances

He will by a decent mile beat BobbyÂ’s goal tally and is it ShiltzÂ’s appearances. Deal with it!

A great player. Proud he supports us. Will enjoy bumping into him in the NEW GOODISON AT KINGS DOCK STADIUM in 2027.

Just get over it!

Paul you’ve slightly missed the point, Rooney did do well in a medals / money / goal stats, but never blossomed into the player he could have been, the player that the 2004 version with no fear should’ve been

The reasons for this are many. The short version is ( imo ) SAF had him reigned in to serve the team, not quite ’Running the Channels’, but none of this nutmeg, thumb the nose, sit on the ball stuff. His spontaneity sacrificed on the alter of SAF’s ego and power trip

Then there is his well documented love of beer and cigs ( not to mention grannies ) and loathing of more than the bare minimum of gym work. The lack of the total discipline required to get the biggest bang of success from his God given talent buck...SAF even mentions it in his Book along the lines of his attitude will overwhelm his talent

He coulda been a contender, Players with less did more, pro rata. It has been thought by many that he hasn’t been the most happy of campers for a few years, so maybe there is a chicken and egg head not in the right space thing going on. But he seems to be trapped in a reverse money pit of his own making

Patrick rightly remarks that we, to all intents and purposes HAD to sell him. But as Nick says...what if. What if he didn’t have his head turned by agents both external and internal ( eh Mr Stubbs?? ) What if he replaced say Kilbane or Bent or Beattie, stayed for 4 or 5 years... or would OFM go down the same road as SAF?. Well he followed him every where else, even into retirement, so maybe it would have come to nothing, who knows...and that’s the point

He was close... but no cigar, it pains me to say it but Ratboy has been the better player for 2 seasons

Derek #6, putting aside the fact the club would’ve entered administration without the sale of Rooney, what would we have had? A promising player in a bang average team, who still wouldn’t have had the discipline to remain fit, so the beer, cigs, grannies would still have been an issue. Rooney’s temperament was such that he’d have been pissed off playing in that team - one of his reasons for leaving was to play in and with better players, and he did.

So he’s achieved a lot despite his slack attitude to fitness. He’d have achieved the square root of fuck all here had he stayed. If there’s one criticism, he should’ve moved abroad to a Real or Barca to really test himself, but with Man U willing to drop 𧷤k a week on him, why should he?

But the real pointlessness of the OP is in the fact that the people that controlled Rooney then were never in a million pounds, sorry years, gonna let him stay at Everton.

I wish Rooney had stayed for a few more years but the reality is when He looks back at his career in 10 or 20 years he can be very satisfied! Medals, titles, probably Man Utd’s highest scorer, England’s highest scorer and cap winner. His greatest goals collection is also pretty impressive!

We just don’t know how he would have done surrounded by mediocrity at Everton?! I just hope he remains a Blue along with his family and does regret some of his early actions (kissing badge, etc). Anyway, I agree: the time has long passed since we need to move on... and let’s face it – on current form, he’s not a patch on Naismith!!!!

Matt Traynor’s post probably identifies the root of it. Many of us make the claim that he would have been a better player if he had stayed.

The fact is that he was playing with better players, getting more exposure in European games, and was actually playing quite well during his first few years at Man Utd. One claim is that he was sacrificed by Ferguson for the team. While that could possibly be true, Ferguson often said that Rooney was over enthusiastic in chasing back in defence etc.

Fact is, Rooney is probably not disciplined enough to learn the more tactical aspects of the game, and hone his technique.

Would Everton have done a better job under Moyes to get him to perform? We don’t know that, do we? Martinez probably would.

Of course, all of us would rightly look at Rooney, and wondered, if he could have been a lot more than what he is. He could have, but to say that he is not primarily because he left us and went to Man Utd is too simplistic.

Terrible decision and epitomises what’s been wrong with England for many years - namely building succession on a model that was fundamentally flawed.

The golden generation have always been fools gold, the last great England group for me lies in the 86 and 90 World Cups, we weren’t beautiful to watch, but we played to our strengths, had a handful of real match winning players (Robson, Lineker, Waddle, Hoddle, Stevens, Steven, Beardsley then Pearce, Platt and Gascoigne) and were cheated out of the tournament in 86 and genuinely unlucky in a tournament we could have won in 90.

The so called golden generation that followed never came close to living up to this reputation and was representative of the insidiuous changes brought about by the premier league, the ramp in wages and the new ’player power’ revolution.
The very concept of assembling ’superstar’ players rather than picking a team that could work together has dogged us ever since - remember all the debates about trying to force one of these stars onto the left or make the Lampard/Gerrard situation work in midfield - utter nonsense.

For me it’s been a lost generation or two with over-billed, over-pampered players lacking the cohesion of a team and repeatedly failing to deliver at the highest level. Aside from a few early cameos from the likes of Owen and indeed Rooney in their first world cups, the players have been mediocre at best on the international stage - Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Ferdinand, Owen, etc), the only 2 outfield players who I think were consistent at performing were Cole and Beckham and only the latter consistently delivered when required despite arguably having a comparatively limited skill-set.

The players weren’t helped by a succession of poor managers either. What we need are inspirational man-managers (Ferguson, Mourinho maybe even Martinez types) who’s not affected by egos or media and can bring everyone on the same level as a group. Tactics are important of course but it’s hard to drill in new modes of playing when they all are doing something week in week out, you need to first make them a tight group and then play for each other and raise each other. The best we had of these were Robson and perhaps Venables for me, Hoddle, Eriksson and Capello were all wrong and Taylor, well at least he tried something different I guess. Hodgson is a nice guy and straight with the players but I don’t think he’s strong enough really.

The world cup in Brazil summed it up for me, there was a real mandate from the fans to do something different, to start again and build a new England. In terms of squad selection it looked promising enough, but then on game day it was all about Gerrard and Rooney again. The two biggest underachievers on an international stage, the two players that are incapable of sticking to a gameplan or tactics (Rooney spends half his game in midfield like a workhorse not a thoroughbred striker, Gerrard roams deep and playing those pointless ’hollywood balls’) and who effectively end up having to be built around. For me these characters overwhelm the team (with too much respect paid to their experience - experience of what though, losing repeatedly?) and keep us tethered to a generation that had only one thing in common with gold - they should have been securely locked up.

If Hodgson wanted to make a statement he should have dropped both players during the first 2 world cup matches (much as I hate to say it I thought Sterling and Sturridge were the stars with Barkley chipping in as well) and left them as the ones coming on as subs or to play the last game. If he’d done that he could generally have made the case he was building a new team, a different approach. He didn’t and now with this latest move he’s compounded the error and ensured that our next tournament will go the way of the Italian Job’s closing scenes and remain weighed down by the last of those ’gilded’ players.

Spot on Paul Ferry.

I can’t be doing with the Rooney-haters frankly. We should be above that. You’re talking about the best British player for the past ten years who oddly has to shoulder the blame for being surrounded by mediocrity in an England shirt.

All the crap about Ferguson being the best mentor for a young Rooney sticks in the craw too. He worked a young (and injured) Rooney to death, never resting the kid and now he looks jaded and older than his 28 years.

Personally, I love watching the lad play and wish him well except when playing against us.

It seems he was right in questioning Man Utd’s ambition when negotiating his pay rise, the chickens are certainly coming home to roost at that club now after Whisky Nose abandoned them having seen the writing on the wall.

If Rooney was as eloquent as Lampard or as good looking as Beckham or, I dare to suggest, from darn sarf, we wouldn’t have to listen to this ’little fat granny shagger’ none sense about the finest footballer of his generation.

It seems odd that he’s labelled this way, it never got mentioned that Stevie GBH battered a DJ or his missus (allegedly) bottled someone in a Chinese restaurant in town on the eve of his appointment as England captain did it?

Gerrard stunk the World Cup out in Brazil but all the talk was of dropping Rooney, the country’s leading goal scorer FFS!

Like I’ve said, the finest footballer of his generation, who’ll break the appearances and goal scoring record for England and a dyed in the wool Scouser and Evertonian. Good luck to the lad I say.

Good post, Chris. My reaction to this announcement is because Rooney is just another part of that mess, and does nothing to elevate or separate himself from it, other than he’s the last of the sorry bunch to disappear.

By status alone, he’s now guaranteed a spot that he should have needed to fight for and Sterling from across the park could well be one of the best players in the world by the time France rolls around yet will be benched.

The ’Golden Generation’ mindset was poisonous and, though Rooney does have a chance of salvation, he is now the leader who was once lead by failures too scared to play.

And that is what he’s been like at every tournament since ’04. I hope the attitude doesn’t spread because there’s an opportunity for a fresh beginning.

That’s kind of the point Phil, he wasn’t just surrounded by mediocrity, he was part of that mediocrity. And all those players were majorly talented at club level but bottled it in white.

OK, sure he’ll end up top goal scorer. But Lineker and Charlton didn’t have the number of internationals they have today, San Marino, Lichtenstein and every province of the Soviet Block breaking up going it alone.

Before these changes, you had Shilton, Moore, Charlton, and Wright on 100 caps +. Gerrard, Cole, Lampard, Beckham hung around and stunk the place out because they were perceived box office. Now Rooney is almost there yet all of them have consistently come home from tournaments without an ounce of pride to reflect their performances.

Best British player in ten years? Big deal.

Never been the same since he stopped swearing at refs and plating grannies.

From a fanÂ’s point of view, he never reached his potential but, from his and his familyÂ’s view, more than reached it. Won loads, captain of his country, and most importantly shitloads of dosh.

Oh and who out of us could get a second chance of Odgy Quiff.

Sorry... Odgy Quiff: It was a well known hair style that used to attract both girls and boys in the late 70s and 80s. Mainly worn by Scousers but copied by wannabe Scousers from Birkenhead. Oh, and IÂ’m from the latter so not slagging BÂ’head.

OP - pathetic.

A series of insults (badly) dressed up as some sort of insight.

The ludicrous notion that Rooney would have been a ’better’ player by spending his career simply running at defences (16-year-old Wayne style).

I have no particular interest in Wayne Rooney (and none in England) but the idea that, when he’s finished, he won’t have fulfilled his potential, is beyond ludicrous.

There’s a very good chance when he’s finished playing he’ll be Manchester Utd’s and England’s highest ever scorer (and if not, he’ll be VERY close).

He’ll have medals for winning the top trophies – and will have done all this, not as a player who has played for himself, but as a team player. A player who gets back and helps out when needed, a player providing ’assists’ for others, someone who scores tap-ins, headers, 30-yarders and free-kicks. A complete player who understands the idea of ’the team’.

The OP ’informs’ us – "Yet he is not Messi, he is not Ronaldo. He should have been. He is not a Robben or an Ibrahimovic, or many more. He’s just what he’s been for 10 years – the second or third best player at Manchester Utd."

This looks like it was written by a 9-year-old who can’t see past a show-offy Billy’s Boots-style dribble.

Wayne Rooney is not just a fantastic player, he’s a fantastic team player – and, when his career is over, his ’stats’ (goals, assists, trophies) will make this post look even more stupid than it does right now.

Yes, I felt filleted when he left us and very angry with him, Bill, Moyes, the agent, & Man Utd... but that anger was fueled by a natural frustration at the time. However, time (as it does) passed and things... moved on.

To be posting a bunch of insults (hair, fat, grannies, adultery, blah blah) 10 years on, imo says nothing about Wayne Rooney and everything about Nick Entwistle.

As someone who wasn’t around when Wayne played for Everton, I must say there is sure some very different opinions on him. My own I despise him because he plays for Manchester United. Is he good without a doubt. Is he over-rated yes.

I like the fact that, as Eugene pointed out, he is a team player, that he does give 100% when he’s on the pitch and is certainly a more all-around player than the pretty boy at Real Madrid.

What I don’t like is he’s not above a dive or a dirty tackle, he constantly whines to the refs, has usually been protected by said refs and of course he plays for Man Utd.

Some things move on Eugene,

You gave me more credit than necessary, it really was just a series of insults. But all of which edge close to the truth.

Why are there long serving players Evertonians love to hate? eg, Ossie and Hibbo and players whose moving on saves the club from bankruptcy who Evertonians... long to hate?

Damned if you stay and damned if you go. It’s currently happening to Jagielka. What a small-minded lot we are!

I agree with Eugene about this theory that he has not reached his potential. A bit baffling considering the number of goals he has scored and the fact that, at club level, he has won everything and played a major role in all of them trophies.

On the England captaincy, I don’t think he is the right choice. A lot of captaincy is about being a media front for the team; due to his lack of eloquence, I am not sure Rooney is the man. I still think he looks a bit blank when put infront of cameras. I also think his penchant for arguing with referees, and his questioning of England fans after the World Cup 2010 game makes it a little questionable. Should have been Hart.

Not a good choice for the England captaincy, but maybe just the best of a bad bunch. Joe Hart is the only other serious contender and Jags was a possible outside bet but not sure he will even be in the team by the time the Euros come around.

When people say Rooney has not met his full potential, they are confusing that with him not being the Maradona/Messi player they all thought he might be; we just don’t get those players in English football.

Eugene uses a phrase here which is often attached to the young bucks, viz ’running at defences’.

Quite recently, I heard Glen Hoddle discussing the likes of Barkley, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Walcott, who all do just that. He said it was what he did as a kid before he learned to make the ball do the work.

I think Rooney would have changed his style, whichever team he played for. Those who don’t... quickly fade away.

Well, if he didnÂ’t reach his full potential, he wouldnÂ’tÂ’ve done it with us. Those little mazey runs against one or two players he used to do at times (home to Bolton springs to mind) wouldÂ’ve been coached out of him in time. And the tracking back and covering several positions was a requirement from Moyes of just about every player bar the goalkeeper, so he wouldÂ’ve been doing that only more often and with a defensive-minded team struggling to get into Europe most seasons.

As much as I was gutted at the time, even then, I believed he didn’t see us going anywhere with Moyes — and, if that is what he thought, then he was right. The whole package from Man Utd was appealing to him and who could blame him? It could’ve been the money; it could’ve been the chance to win silverware, or to play in a team with far better players, but playing for Moyes also had a lot to do with it.

I wonder if a 16-year-old Rooney wouldÂ’ve been so eager to leave under the current set up? I bet he wouldÂ’ve loved toÂ’ve played for Martinez.

"Never been the same since he stopped swearing at refs and plating grannies." – Funny but may have some truth in it.

The pure aggression has been coached out of him, but he certainly hasn’t failed in his career.

Interestingly you mention Messi and we can look at Ronaldo too; they are viewed as the best two players in the world, yet they have "not since lifted an Argentinia/Portugal side above their collective ability". They haven’t won anything with their team and Messi has been slated for many years for his international form.

Rooney has won everything domestically, will be the highest goalscorer for club and country, and is the highest paid Briton in the League.

Make your mind up, Nick. Either Rooney has never come home from a tournament with any credit, or he did in 2004 at the age of 17, for crying out loud.

A nonsense argument about Charlton, Lineker etc never having played in meaningless friendlies by the way... perhaps a little research? I’m happy to have a discussion / disagreement but, when you retort with ’best British player in 10 years, Big Deal!’, it’s futile.

Eugene’s quite right, Rooney is a tremendous team player who’s sacrificed personal success for the team ethic and has paid a heavy price at both international and club level. His versatility has cost him and expecting him to somehow personally lift a dysfunctional and mediocre team beggars belief. Then again, must have been all of that geriatric coital activity that’s worn the lad out, eh, Nick!

Personally, I think Rooney becoming England captain is more about money and sponsorships than anything else, we saw it with the undroppable Beckham and weÂ’re about to see it with Rooney, if you can be arsed to watch (which I canÂ’t be).

You’ve got Blue rinse Woy picking the team (I think), then you have people higher up making the decisions – like picking Woy. England are doomed and I’m bored shitless of the whole setup – and the interruption to the Premier League.

Here you go Nick:

Bobby Charlton’s ’easy’ goals:

2 v N Ireland (home championships Rooney’s never enjoyed!)
3 v USA friendly (8-0 win)
3 v Luxembourg (9-0 win)
3 v Mexico (friendly 8-0 win)
3 v Switzerland (8-1 friendly win)

Playing for the World Champions by the way, surrounded by world class players in one of THE best international teams as an out and out striker.

Lineker:

2 v USA (friendly)
2 v Paraguay (friendly)
4 v Spain (friendly)
2 v Albania
2 v Cameroon (friendly)
4 v Malaysia (friendly)
2 v New Zealand (friendly)
All playing as an out-and-out poaching striker for, again, a much better international side than Rooney has played in, 2004 aside – and we all know how good he was that season....don’t we? Pensioners as bedfellows or otherwise!

He reached the top of his chosen profession, Nick.

Did you?

So did Phil Neville.

Phil @ 22, Messi, Ronaldo, Bale and Robben all still do a pretty good job of running at defences. Does this mean once they learn how to make the ball do the work they will become better players? Scary thought that.

Henry and Giggs didn’t do too badly at it either.

Yes, but did You?

On the way up, Harold.

The reason why English players fail and underachieve at international level are numerous: a lack of real technique and composure with the ball; the fearing of losing at tournaments; what skill English players do have has been knocked out of them by their clubs, in order to play in a system that can achieve 3 points.

I notice that Steve Bruce held back some of his better players for Hull City in the Europa League match, for the sake of 3 points from their next league match – even though they had a good chance of winning their Europa League match.

Wayne Rooney, now made England captain, to cement a great career. I can see both sides of the arguement, especially as stats and statistics don’t lie. But I also feel that he has never fulfilled his enormous ability.

"Let the ball do the work" is correct, Phil, but Rooney stopped running at defenders years ago and took away (IMO) one of the best parts of his game. I honestly think that the only thing that could really re-ignite his performance is by playing for Everton once again, but I’m not sure this will ever happen?

Glenn Hoddle: Phil, sacked by England for saying a few crazy things, none of which were football related by the way.

Roy Hodgson: Failed to get through the group and then said his team played much like Germany, the World Champions, keeps his job?
Not saying Hoddle was right, just saying it can’t be about the football, when your manager is coming out with absolute shite like this!

One of the most bitter posts I have ever had the misfortune to read on ToffeeWeb.

Disturbing, isn’t it, Peter?

Phil, don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m guessing you were born after the wall came down.

I’m not sure what you mean by ’easy goals’, especially when you note Spain in the Bernabau, but if you look to Rooney’s 31 matches he scored in, 17 were against teams as I pointed out either didn’t have international recognition at the time Lineker played, like San Marino and Andorra, or are the result of nations dividing such as Macedonia, Montenegro, Kazakhstan. Again not around in his playing days.

The qualifying groups are much larger today. Smaller nations, with more matches to play at your peak.

Also the Cameroon match was quite a famous competitive match in the 1990 World Cup quarterfinal. England were being outplayed all over the pitch.

And Bobby Charlton was an out-and-out striker? You may want to revisit that.

Fair points about Rooney having won and scored so many. Can’t really argue with that.

I personally never blamed him for leaving. And we benefitted. We finished 17th in his last season with us. Sold him; finished 4th the following season. Maybe we HAD to sell him?

But I’ve always believed he never became the exciting player we all thought. The explosiveness and unpredictability became simple square balls and lay-offs.

Either way, it’s gone now... so no point worrying over it.

BTW, nobody can seriously compare Lineker and Rooney at International level. Lineker produced in HUGE games like Cameroon and West Germany. Won the Golden Boot, even. Wayne scored a cracker against Andorra.

You know what, Nick, I agree with you. Rooney could have been a great player. He’s an excellent player but it’s not the same.

That Eugene "If I’m not remembering the seventies, I’m writing a rant" Ruane and Paul "I don’t mind the RS winning the league because of Hillsborough" Ferry disagree with you, detracts from your argument not at all.

I missed this snide little post, David (#40), but for the record you have totally mischaracterized what I said so well done on that one and well if you want to build a ’point’ on that one that’s up to you.

Interesting that that you home in on me and Eugene – who is more than capable of picking the little flesh on your arguments apart if he so wishes – so you clearly are holding some sort of hangover chip-on-shoulder or grudge. Fine!

Yet again, you are in a minority, however, as any quick flick through this thread will show. I think that you need to move on. I really do. Post #40 does not put you in a good light.

Paul (#41): "...you have totally mischaracterized what I said."

Welcome to ToffeeWeb

Interesting piece on Rooney in the Sunday Times today. Talking about how he asked some pertinent questions about Man Utd’s lack of ambition and transfer activity, which have now come to roost.

I’ll always be grateful that his sale probably kept us in business, but he’s often struck me as the classic English under-achiever, lacking the intelligence and maturity to make the most of his talent.

Nick.

Lineker scored 26 of his international goals in FRIENDLIES....including the FRIENDLY against Spain.
You’re wrong again re the Cameroon game: he scored 2 against them, at Wembley, in Feb 1991, again, in a FRIENDLY.

The soviet bloc breakup is neither here or there frankly. When Charlton was playing England were a formidable side (and at one stage the World’s best) and the regularly grubbed lesser teams by cricket scores, which I’ve highlighted for you.

Those days are long gone as the lesser sides have closed the gap, soviet bloc or non soviet bloc, and that’s a fact. I think that being undoubtedly the best British player in the past eleven years is a ’big deal’ actually.

Highlighting his looks, weight, hairline or alleged adultery is pathetic mate, I’ve read some of your previous posts and you can do better, this one is poor. What I do know of the lad is that he is fairly shy and no intellect but both him and his wife and good people who do a lot of charity work not least at Claire House children’s hospice on the Wirral. Oddly enough, this never quite makes a headline in the Daily Star where you appear to have formulated your opinions on the lad.

I’ll give you the Bobby Charlton point but counter it by informing you that I was born in the early sixties, way before the wall came down. (But what that’s got to do with my opinions on Rooney Christ only knows!)

Wayne Rooney, best in Britain, England’s leading goal scorer in competitive international matches, captain, Scouser, Evertonian and a decent lad...IMHO.

Phil,

I know above you said "A nonsense argument about Charlton, Lineker etc never having played in meaningless friendliest by the way"... I actually never said that. Not even close.

But I’d take the bet Rooney has an easier time at international level with all the chaff he gets to play against and more often... actually, England’s Euro qualifying group... Switzerland, Slovenia, Estonia, Lithuania and San Marino.

Only one of those existed in Lineker’s time and you can’t convince me the others have closed a gap on anything. Also, I bet Lineker played more matches away, the FA back then didn’t have a stadium to pay off!

The post isn’t about being the best of British, big deal or not. Its about failing in an England shirt when it mattered most and failing to be the player we all got so excited about, team player or not. And us splitting hairs on the opposition doesn’t change that.

David Cornmell (40) - "You know what Nick, I agree with you. Rooney could have been a great player. He’s an excellent player but it’s not the same. That Eugene "If I’m not remembering the seventies I’m writing a rant" Ruane and Paul "I don’t mind the RS winning the league because of Hillsborough" Ferry disagree with you, detracts from your argument not at all."

I think it’s fair to say when debating that we (all of us) want to have points/arguments that will cut those with an opposing view to the quick.

"No he didn’t say Tuesday, here’s a clip of him saying WEDNESDAY!"

However on occasion, you simply don’t have to try.

I could point out the stupidity (because of complete lack of anything approaching ’and I’ll explain why’) of "Rooney could have been a great player. He’s an excellent player but it’s not the same".

But the truth is, any post starting "You know what Nick, I agree with you" does my job for me.

By the way David "I’m carrying a grudge from a long forgotten TW whupping" Cornmell, I’m specifically referring to Nick ’It took bailiffs to remove me from Moyes’s anus" Entwistle.

Nick, I’ll refer you to Eugene @16.

The OP was childish and the ’arguments’ you use to support your apparent loathing of Wayne Rooney simply didn’t.

Let’s agree to disagree on Lineker who was never a team player like Rooney and was purely a goal poacher, that was his only role for England. He played against plenty of shite too like I’ve said, in a better England side than Wayne Rooney and I seem to remember plenty of below par poor performances when he played in an England shirt, but not many references to his ears, penchant for crisps or adultery. Neither was he handed the sole responsibility of having to somehow ’lift’ his England colleagues above mediocrity.

Like I’ve said, your ’Soviet Bloc breakup’ point is invalid, the gap has most definitely closed between international sides as the days of 8-0, 9-0 score lines so frequent in Charlton’s time kind of illustrate this I’d have thought.

In closing, I’ll repeat that it was a poor OP from you (I enjoy most of your stuff, btw) but your argument’s credibility disappeared spectacularly out of the window with the comment that Wayne Rooney as a ’waste of talent’ and ’unrealised potential’ beats Billy Kenny ’hands down’. Really?

No, not really Phil. But it was a polemic. Surely that you can see. As Eugene said, a series of insults. Kind of obvious that. No need for you and Eugene to get on your high horse, as if the harshest thing ever said on TW about players was all rainbows and angel farts.

4-1 Montenegro
4-0 Moldova
5-1 Croatia
8-0 San Marino
5-0 San Marino
6-0 Andorra
4-0 Kazakhstan
4-0 Slovakia
5-1 Kazakhstan
4-1 Croatia
5-0 Andorra

There's plenty more 4s 5s and 6s in Rooney's career against the nations you noted with Charlton. He just never got to play against that lot above so I can't see how you view the point as invalid. Just another to agree to disagree.

Nick.

I'd revisit the definition of 'polemic' if I was you.

Like I said, comparing Rooney's supposed 'waste of talent' with that of Billy Kenny is absurd and for me, and apparently several others, diminished your post's credibility and that's without dwelling on the 'potato head' 'shrek' 'fatboy' 'ass-hair-to his-head' etc, jibes that accompanied it.

Keep 'em coming, however, I'm sure Eugene, myself and others will be monitoring the situation. Cheers.

Nick - " No need for you and Eugene to get on your high horse"

Ahhhh the old 'high horse' eh?

[Shakes head... mutters 'dear me'.]

So me questioning what is/was transparently simply insults posted as insight, is me getting on my... 'high horse'?

Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

The reality is, there's no horse and no height, just... me pointing out the obvious ludicrousness of your post and (more importantly) why it was dumb and pointless.

I do however understand that some, out of sheer desperation, will always attempt to portray those with contrary informed opinions as 'ranting' etc

Yes, I think I can say I've heard and had 'em all over the years - "High horse, blah blah, spittle-covered computer, blah blah, ranting, blah, eyes bulging, blah blah, raging angry, blah, waffle-tearing, ripping, slavering dogs, blah... [I wonder if poet Ted Hughes ever posted on TW?]

All fine with me as I reckon to most on TW (always a few dafties obviously) this will always look like what it is – smoke-screen, deflection and an admission of 'Oo-er, I didn't think it through, now I'm flailing.'

Actually, I think the Wayne Rooney story is a genuine, in the Greek sense: tragedy. He started out at Everton with a talent which probably was in the same league as Maradona or Cruyff or Messi, but through personal flaws (listening to Gerrard, being seduced by his agent), and bad fortune (playing for an Everton team he loved, but which was desperate for cash to survive), he sold his footballing soul to Ferguson.

As a result, he will look back on a career which will ultimately greatly disappoint him. I suspect that Rooney is as Evertonian as anyone on this list – how could he not be? He grew up in Liverpool while the hated RS were winning everything with disgraceful tactics, and he supported Everton.

Yes, he's a professional footballer who will always do as well as he can for his employer, but perhaps, with the extra incentive of bringing glory to the club he grew up loving, he would have had an extra edge, the kind of edge Cruyff had for Holland or Pele for Brazil.

A tragedy is a play in which an untried talented character is magnificently successful and (in one sense or another) world conquering. Due to some malign combination of fortune and character, some slip is made, some betrayal of the best principles happens. And it is all inevitably downhill from there, resulting in some ignominious end.

I think Rooney has been on a course for "failure" (by which I mean, in this sense, not being identified in the Pantheon of football, for he had the talent), and will end up disappointed and cursing his fate and failure to stay at Goodison.

I hope he's a bit luckier than that, and his wife seems to be a wonderful character and may manage to see him to a safe landing.