The 'Rooney Rule'

DonÂ’t think they are bastions of virtue either of them. But they are right if reported correctly.

The quota system is an insult to the integrity of sport and the individual.

In my opinion, this rule is a kind of reverse racism.

A person should never have the colour of his skin taken into it when applying for a job. Nor should he/ she be considered suitable for a job because of the colour of skin.

I agree with Paul that colour of skin should not be taken into account when offering a job but in this instance the evidence suggests that it is being taken into account . The numbers just donÂ’t stack up and something needs to change.

ItÂ’s a moot point whether this is how to do it but the danger is that we go down the old Â’colour should nÂ’t matter Â’ route and this becomes a prop for a vile status quo.

IÂ’m not suggesting for an instant Paul that this this something you would want by the way, but I do see it as a danger of that position.

For what itÂ’s worth I think itÂ’s possibly a way forward . The best case scenario we have just now is that there are unconscious biases that are leading to qualified guys not getting opportunities.( it could in reality be far more sinister in some cases) . Maybe we need some time to bring these guys into the forefront of thinking - at least to have the chance to sit at the table . Hopefully in time the measure will be redundant , because fair practices will be routine .

I would be interested know the number of black and asian applicants for coaching roles vs those in jobs. It does seem to me that the people shouting loudest are those who have been in jobs and failed ie Paul Ince.

The problem is that of the Â’Rooney RuleÂ’ was implemented you could be in a position were people get jobs not necessarily on merit and end up losing those jobs because of poor performance and your negative stats just continue to stack up.

I agree with Paul, skin colour shouldnÂ’t be taken into account. Barnes and Ince lost jobs, and probably wonÂ’t get another chance, simply because they were shite as managers. If they had been successful at Celtic, Blackpool, tranmere etc...theyÂ’d probably still be in work now.

A lawyerÂ’s dream this. The sport is awash with money, so if some more leaks out to employment lawyers and the like, it shouldnÂ’t really matter.

Football doesnÂ’t operate like other businesses. In the real world in which most of us inhabit, you are sacked if you fail to perform/meet targets/are shite/etc. and occasionally itÂ’s down to ulterior motives (face didnÂ’t fit, personality clash, boss was a twat, etc.) and thereÂ’s legal steps you can take to seek redress. Even now, there are those who abuse the tribunal system because itÂ’s too costly for most employers to defend.

Putting aside the potential for abuse of this system (e.g. could Paul Ince have claimed racism was behind any of his sackings?), how does it work in a world where Mancini gets dismissed after winning a league, a cup, and runner up in both in 3 years? Or Harry Redknapp is still in employment?

Why stop at "positive discrimination" for ethnicity? In a sport where we have women officials, why should/could the top coaching job not be done by a woman?

As fans we often wonder whether it is the best person for the job in the starting XI, let alone in the managerÂ’s seat. And thereÂ’s cases where club owners clearly meddle in team affairs. How are you supposed to integrate the "Rooney Rule" into a situation where the "Loony Rule" seems to apply? I agree with Dyer. It should be on ability. Maybe thereÂ’s a shortage of opportunities to get into coaching, particularly at lower levels where out-dated views thrive, but I doubt itÂ’s an issue at the upper levels.

What next though? British managers complaining about not getting a shot at the top jobs in the prem? We could have a Sam Allardicci law as well to give the British managers a Â’rightÂ’ to get interviewed for the Chelsea or arsenal job.

I wouldnÂ’t care what race or colour our manager was if he won the title for us and I bet just about every other Evertonian would feel the same. However, I would be seriously pissed off if some incompetent clown were to be installed just because he or she happens to be black. Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

I can recall instances when I was still working of women being promoted into jobs they had no experience of just because they WERE women and had a "good" interview (which dealt with their outlook etc, not their ability) and watched them crash and burn before they were removed sideways, keeping their promoted position. Just to meet they required percentage of females in positions of authority.

I would hate this to happen in football.

The only two black managers I can think of who have had success at management level are Rikjard and Gullit.

Barnes is always bleating on about rascism in football management, itÂ’s all he has left, he was the worst manager EVER to manage any football team anywhere in the world, every job heÂ’s had has given him the boot for piss poor results.

A few of my Tranmere mates could not wait to see the back of him as it was the worst football they had ever seen at Prenton Park and he never, ever took responsibility for any bad results.

I personaly couldnt give two shakes on a witch doctors rattle if our manager was Black, Asian, Chinese, Inuit Eskimo or a 4 legged alien from Phobos9 as long as we won football matches.

I canÂ’t see how this doesnÂ’t amount to racism. LetÂ’s say a club decides to interview 20 candidates, and theyÂ’ve picked 19. The 20th is narrowed down to two people: one of Chinese descent and the other of African descent. If they pick the African descendent to fulfil a Â’skin colourÂ’ quota doesnÂ’t that mean they are excluding the Chinese because of his skin?

At moments in history when a form of people have been discriminated against for a very long time, I think some kind of reverse discrimination is needed. It is not without problems of course, but neither is this embarrassing statistic which will both discourage certain applicants, and continue to encourage the promotion of an overwhelming white managing majority in the sport.

Of course, we can hope that society catches up in time. But what about now? Sometimes society needs a push, and the introduction of this rule would at least give more black managers an opportunity to demonstrate the groundless nature of these statistics, and encourage more of a racial equilibrium in a sport where racism still rears its old ugly head, and will continue to read its ugly head.

Two wrongs donÂ’t make a right.

Jim, are there any figures to show how many or what percentage of black or ethnic ex players have applied for jobs in management or coaching?

ThatÂ’s all well and fine Jim but what about the poor fans who pay top whack to watch their team try to win a football match.

To employ someone to manage a team because of the colour of their skin and not their suitability for the job is robbing money out of the fans pockets.

What people are missing here is that just because the daft Yanks have a quota to fill for the interviews, it does not mean that they will be hired.

LetÂ’s be honest, clubs will probably have a short list of two or three managers they want, it makes no difference to them to interview a "minority" applicant.

If one white fella is bumped from the list to accommodate the minority applicant, then chances are that he wasnÂ’t really in the running for the job.

The status quo remains but the club fell all hunky dory because they interviewed the minority applicant.

Nothing will ever change.

Typical bloody Yanks, creating another problem by going way over the top to try and solve the initial problem.

I think the first question to ask is how many black people have got the required Uefa A licence that is now practically a must have to manage certainly in the Premier League.

I remember a conversation with Les Ferdinand who has worked as a coach at a couple of clubs, the interviewer asked him did he or had he applied for the Uefa A or B badge, he said he didnÂ’t have either and did not intend to apply for one as he had no chance of getting a job. So if you are not prepared to get these licences, why should you be offered a job as manager, the fact that clubs have employed him shows these wasnÂ’t any prejudice against him.

For me, the Rooney rule is flawed and opens the door for every ethnic group to claim the same rights. I am sure that most supporters want a successful team irrespective of colour or religion, and that is a healthy approach.

I echo a couple of the above posts in it would be interesting to see how many ethnic minority applicants there have been and how many were interviewed.

IÂ’m not having that there are people not applying for jobs because they feel they would have no chance of being appointed. In any case, would that be the defeatest attitude you would want to employ anyway!

If any manager, regardless of colour or religion, is getting results - then surely they would be offered better jobs on that basis. IsnÂ’t that how this football management malarkey works?

Feck me, some football clubs would have put anyone in charge if they thought they could win another League title, or European trophy.

In professional football, results and trophies are the only thing that matter.

Dave, I have two points for you -

Firstly, why would the black manager be necessarily a worse manager?
And in relation to the first point, this idea relates to interviews not hiring. This would merely be a foot in the door, and a form of encouragement for both the person hiring, and the potential applicant.

And Kevin, I think your conception of football management is a little naive. I think the hiring of managers is an absolute joke at times to be honest. Football clubs are often worth tens of millions, or hundreds of millions, of pounds. But ex-footballers get put into these positions of trust purely because they used to play football, despite a massive disjuncture between playing football, and managing a football team (or even properly understanding football). If he had wanted it, Alan Shearer could have got the Newcastle job full time. Why? because he played as a striker for Newcastle, and became a cult hero. Liverpool inanely re-hired Kenny despite his substantial break from the game, and his unsuitability for the role, because he was a Liverpool legend. It is a surreal situation - footballers, often without any managerial experience or pedigree, are put in charge of clubs worth incredible amounts of money, with a fan base of millions. What about Tim Sherwood? One of football's new great idiots.

I'm sure alot of us have played football, and could do a better job than some of the ex-professionals who are given significant roles, and then fuck things up.

And I think that is exactly what happens Pete. I do not think it has anything to do with defeatism, but a racially embedded narrative which goes back hundreds of years, and which is still relevant to culture, and especially football, at the moment. It is easy to ignore normative racial discursive products, but they won't change by being ignored.

How many successful black film directors are there? In a big-budget Hollywood movement currently dominated by superhero movies (and fantasy films in general) how many black leads are there?

I think racially oppressive realities are still omnipresent, especially in a football world which can be surprisingly backward sometimes. We only need to turn to our neighbours to see that, and the pathetic support Suarez received during the racism scandal. Indeed, he received support before the findings of the investigation, and after it, when Suarez's guilt was confirmed.

Jim,

It is simply a token gesture, and I would suggest insulting, give someone an interview because they are black.

Racial discrimination whether it be in a negative manner, or in what some see as a positive manner in the Rooney Rule, is still racial discrimination.

"How many successful black film directors are there? In a big-budget Hollywood movement currently dominated by superhero movies (and fantasy films in general) how many black leads are there?"

To fair Jim, who gives a parrot's todger about Hollywood when dealing with Everton?

"Rooney's Rule" in itself is racist, positive racism.

As a company, someone may miss out on an interview because some "do-gooder suit" decided that certain firms have to interview a quota of minority applicants, even if they are seriously less qualified than every other applicant.

Nowhere in business does that exists. If you aren't qualified enough or would have failed the cut, why then should an applicant be forced upon the business?

Granted they can easily just not offer them the job, but the fact that they have been forced to interview someone they otherwise wouldn't have, is ridiculous.

Jim,

I, to, am astonished at some of the knuckle dragging, monosyllabic dickheads who have progressed into management. Sherwood is a good example and Shearer, that graduate of the University of Hindsight with his ability to tell us what we've just witnessed on MotD.

Yes, some or many managers get their job solely because they played for that club and would obviously "get it" regarding the way the club and fans feel about it. But the current top manager, Jose, wasn't a player of the highest standing nor was Wenger, and great players of the past, like Bobby Charlton or Matthews, were rubbish at management. There is no hard-and-fast rule relating ability on the pitch to ability in the dug out.

Before people start claiming that there is a racist glass ceiling in place, it would be worth knowing just how many black ex-players have bothered getting their Uefa Pro Licence and have been prevented from getting a job because they are black. I don't personally give a toss about a man's colour; if he is good enough, I'd welcome him to Goodison.

It's an interesting debate, but I do feel that if any manager shows promise in the lower leagues, they would get a chance at a bigger club, regardless of the colour of their skin.

That then begs the question, are ethnic minority candidates being blocked from getting into these positions in the first place, due to racism?

I'm not convinced they are myself. As I stated above, it's all about results. You only have look at the Ched Evans case for proof of that.

Would closet racists stop someone getting a job, even though it meant their club could progress?

There are without doubt racists in high positions in world football.

Google the Said and Done column in The Observer to see some disgusting examples.

As far as I can see it is thankfully not prevalent in English football.

Jim Knightley

Can't go along with your reasoning about Dagleish's appointment being inane. I hate them with a passion but the man won the double –I would have thought that was a reason in itself despite him being away from the game for a while.

Paul, there are racists everywhere....BUT.....

It doesn't mean that firms/businesses should have to meet a quota for certain ethnicities when interviewing for a job.

It's, to put it bluntly, fecking ridiculous.

The argument seems to be that, based on skin colour, there must be racism affecting managerial appointments because non-whites are disproportionately under-represented in these positions. Using this type of argument, there must also be anti-white racism at the actual playing level since the report noted that a quarter of players are non-white.

Why is footie getting hammered for this? It's the same right through life as a whole, might be some who don't like coloured folk but majority will just employ the best.
Start with allowing Catholics to marry into Royalty would help. This is a disgrace and its openly acknowledged.

Tony,

All due respect, mate. I agree with your point 100% But "Coloured" is a bad term.

Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink is getting the Burton job, so it is hopefully the start of black managers gaining employment. Chris Powell has been doing well with Charlton and now Huddersfield, Paul Ince did well with MK Dons but struggled with Blackburn and Blackpool.

People don't get jobs because of race, it's about credentials. If a chairman thinks that Tony Pulis suits a job better than Sol Campbell for instance, that's his/her decision.

Steve Carse(30)...my thoughts exactly.

Whenever I hear about this, or anything like it, it makes my blood boil. There is no such thing as "positive discrimination". It's quite simply legalised racism. The country is bonkers.

I heard one radio interviewee who said 25% of players are black yet the percentage of managers who are black is 3.5% or something. The interviewer never questioned why black people, who make up 3% of the UK population, are so vastly over-represented as players.

If you only listened to left-wing, or government funded institutions such as the BBC, or the Commission for Racial (In)Equality, you would think racism only happens to black/ethnic minorities. Institutions like these do more to stoke up racial hatred than any far right group could ever hope for, with their one-sided campaigns and coverage.

Because of the general reluctance of anyone in the media or government to stand up to anyone who claims to have been racially discriminated against, the cry of "racism" has just become a handy card to play whenever you want to get more power for whatever ethnic minority group you happen to belong to, or whenever you want to take focus away from something you want to cover up. It also makes genuine cases of racism far less likely to receive the sympathy and support of the general population that it deserves.

I believe the focus of certain parts of the media to give such consistently biased coverage against white people is probably why people in council and police positions in places like Rotherham felt they couldn't deal with the problems on their doorstep years ago and say what was actually happening, for fear of being accused of being racist against a Pakistani minority.

Things like the "Rooney Rule", or any form of discrimination based on race, is just going to make it less likely that people of different backgrounds will be able to get on in life in peace.

/Rant

Hi Paul, wondered how long it would be before someone pulled me on that word.

There seems to be a big push to boot racism out of footie and I don't think it's being done the right way. People would have you believe it's not got any better in the last few decades when it's no where near as bad. All you have to do now to stop a game is chant a few obscenities. Well people will do it even more.

It's all bullshit by the leaders in footie and politicians that they are doing something about it when their policies are flawed. Needs a complete rethink. Dare I say ignoring it might see the bigots get bored and go away.

As an aside, my wife is from Malaysia and if you want to see the effect of "positive discrimination" on a population just look at what is going on there.

My wife tells me the country positively discriminates in favour of it's native Malay population by enforcing rules such as one that states that companies have to have a minimum percentage of Malay workers.

This has resulted in a lazy, entitlement culture among many Malay people who are advantaged solely because of their race, and many educated Malaysians of Indian or Chinese ethnicity, for example, are leaving. The country is much worse off because of it and there is a lot of ethnic tension.

Discrimination in all of its forms exists throughout the world and sadly will continue to do so in the foreseeable future. It's a good thing that people are aware of the problems and it's also a good thing that some people are attempting to improve the lot of those who are discriminated against. As usual, there will be unintended consequences that will upset some people but I don't think any of us should just accept the status quo as that means nothing will change... ever.

It used to be said that in Liverpool in the 1950s if you were a Catholic you had slim hopes of being employed in certain businesses; that was not acceptable then it is not acceptable now.

Positive discrimination has its merits and its flaws, it will likely take a special personality to break the 'glass-ceiling' but it will happen and there's no good reason why it shouldn't.

Jim@22.

There are loads of black Hollywood lead stars so don't know why you came from it from that angle.

As for directors? Spike Lee springs to mind but Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington and Samuel LJackson have all directed and starred in big budget movies.

Still don't get what that's got to do with footy though?

Tony,

Never pulled you mate. I wasn't sure you were aware of the connotations of calling a black person 'coloured'. It's very insulting to them.

There probably is racism at the board level. How many EMs do you see as chairmen or directors? The Rooney law is unforceable as someone said above. They'll interview 5 candidates (one of them being an EM) and then just pick the white guy anyway. It's a waste of time.

Here's a thought.

Given the propensity of some EMs to blame racism whenever something doesn't go their way, and given the frequency that managers are sacked... as a Chairman, would you open yourself up to that kind of abuse and restriction by employing a EM coach ahead of an equally qualified non-EM coach knowing that you may not be able to get rid of the EM coach risk of being branded a racist?

I think you should need very, very good evidence before you call people racist and demanding quotas. Better evidence than "there are lots of black players so why not many managers".

As people have mentioned, you need information on how qualified they are, how many applications are made, failure rates for white and EM applicants and probably a hundred other things. Proper statistical analysis taking into account as many factors as possible, not just measuring the one statistic that happens to support your view, and ignoring the statistics that don't.

Dave Lynch,

I was pointing to proportionality, especially among directors, which is massively dominated by white men (given your namesake, I'm sure you will appreciate the intentional irony). My black actor comment related to a specific genre which is almost entirely dominated by white men.

My point is to highlight a racial discourse which permeates society, and has multiple manifestations. I pointed to cinema as one obvious cultural manifestation, just as football appears to be a different kind of manifestation.

I'm not saying that this has to be voluntary, because it's often not. Racism can be an involuntary product of our socialisation, which is produced and normalised by our cultural products. In this case, I think a lack of black managers in football relates to a pre-existing racial discourse which still exists (albeit to a lesser degree).

Positive discrimination has its flaws of course, but I think it is a means of encouraging a different mindset. Why is the proportion of black managers to black players so low in comparison to the white counterparts? There is no racial reason, so there can only be a socially produced one.

In my opinion, positive discrimination could be an answer, although others may see it as contributing to a problem. The important thing I suppose is that we are talking about it.

You're not a social worker by any chance, are you, Jim?

Nope, why?

And thanks for the considered reply.

Well done, Jim Knightley, for trying to take a sensible look at his. Something prevents black players from seeking coaching careers. It seems to me that there are remnants of racism at a high level in some clubs. A kind of sniggering lads together "What, us racists? Some of my best friends are black" mentality. As at Cardiff, it sometimes seeps out.

Even today, I reckon that a newly appointed black manager will have some misgivings about putting forward his plans to a white board. I think to succeed a new black coach will require better credentials as a player to get a chance.

Andy, if there is proper evidence of discrimination or genuine barriers that are being put in the way of EM's then lets have that information out in the public or given to the authorities and lets start prosecuting the people who are causing the problem.

Because society(and I include EM's in this) has racist elements, there is no reason to believe that football chairmen and directors are immune from that. Of course there will be racists there. There will be racists in my local chippy, in teaching, nursing or working at the council.

What I fail to believe is that a significant number of the chairmen and directors are racist. Most of them are probably trying their best to keep their club running and would happily employ the best candidate, regardless of ethnicity. The risks of making bad managerial choices are massive.

The quality of evidence I have seen used to make blanket accusations that so many people are racist is shocking. The media seem happy to broadcast it, but no-one seems willing to delve a bit deeper and look at it objectively to understand the situation in more detail.

If you're just looking at the most basic of figures you could ask yourself why there are so few asian footballers, compared to black footballers when you consider that there are more than twice as many asians living in the country?

We know black people are vastly over-represented on the playing front, so is it because football is racist against asian players, but not black players? I know plenty of asians interested in football and asians who go to stadia to watch matches, so the interest is definitely there.

If there are not enough black managers in the game, then I would suggest a more likely reason is that there are a lack of black manager role-models or perhaps other cultural reasons why those players decide to do other things than go into management, in the same way as there are probably cultural reasons why asian's don't tend to take up football as a career.

The answer to any lack of managers of a certain type is for these lobby organisations to persuade as many black players or people to get the coaching qualifications and apply for the jobs and generate the role-models for future generations.

The answer should never involve, under any circumstances, being actively racist towards white people by rigging the selection of candidates.

Wayne Smith, if you should run for office in next year's election, you have my vote, sir.

Someone mentioned Dalglish winning the double as a manager earlier. It's in the history books of course. What isn't is how a certain team from a similar locality blew the same double when push came to shove.