Everton trio play but England fall to Dutch

Just to confirm, once and for all – he's the most over hyped, ineffectual player England have?

Or James "alright at most things... great at nothing" Milner....

Or Theo "I have only ever scored double figures for Arsenal once in 10 years and I have the touch of Edward Gein" Walcott......

He is a very good player but would like to here there comments if he helps concede a goal by losing it in the penalty area, also before I get slated the reason he gets stick is he does get in trouble often when in a blue shirt and he does not seem to learn from his mistakes, when he does he will make a big improvement in his game.

You overlooked Danny "always crocked" Welbeck, Jack "always smoking" Wilshere, and anybody English who plays well on their debut for Man Utd.

BTW, although I love Rom, I'd swap him for Kane in a heartbeat.

I think they mean for Everton!!!!!!

Toffees gift Dutch a couple of sweet treats.

Toffees defenders give two sour goals away

Stones slips out of pecking order

Everton defence too soft and sweet for England

England chew on bitter disappointment as toffees fail to bear fruit.

You are taught when you are starting to play as a young boy, don't try to beat a man if you are last man.

As for Stones, he'll be fine and I hope Mr Moshiri can keep him with us. I am beginning to think that we will hold on to him.

He can play as a defensive midfielder, carrying the ball out and with the vision and brain to make a killer pass.

Stones has a balance problem, he slips over too often and once on the run, his technique lets him down and he lets the ball get away from him. And tonight he almost injured himself. I have seen him do the same for us several times.

Walcott just showed why he will not make the squad.

How many runs and great balls out of defence make up for tarrying on the ball and falling on your arse when the goalie's calling for it? Thus resulting in giving away a goal.

Couldn't help slipping? Tell Stevie G that one!

@14 Stones did make a mistake; the mistake was he should've played it back to the keeper and pulled to the side to create space to receive the ball back. A little one-two around the striker would've been and looked better that what he tried. I don't believe he has been taught this; I believe he just thinks he's better and don't want to listen.

A centre-back that likes to drive forward and has an eye for a through ball or a pass opening up the defence but does make the odd mistake is it only me that is screaming out for him to be a defensive central midfielder.

Jags doesn't go despite being superior to Cahill and Smalling and our own Stones at the moment.

And apparently no England player can dribble but Wilshere can. Jack Wilshere is well known for being light weight, a good passer but not quick or skilful enough to regularly dribble. Barkley can't dribble of course...

We get mugged off by everyone and I blame Martinez because our current league standing means the likes of one-season wonder Spurs are suddenly believing the hype.

If Roy Hodgson can pick 3 players from a team sitting 12th in the Premier League and use them effectively (I appreciate we lost), why are we where we are? Simple – a manager who can't mould a team.

When did so many Everton players represent their countries in our current position? Not sure how many, but probably double figures.

Perhaps Martinez should seek advice from international managers! But you know the answer to that one.

Collymore on the radio said Stones is so good going forward but, when he is on, the other defenders have to remember this, and be prepared to clean up his mistakes. Should he really be a centre-back then?

The man really has no backbone for captaincy.

My observation tonight was to note that he will tackle or at least try and, as Dave points out, less so at Everton, and (as Dave also notes) I wonder why?

If only. I'm 58 and I still wanna party.....

As far as Stonsey goes, I need to buy him a big conical hat like a traffic cone with a big fuckin' "D" written on it. Cos, when he has to make a decision then £60k a week is far to much for this guy.

I'm sure the faithful will kill me for this but I see this as the dumbing down of our beloved younger generation..

Like many of our younger players, he can't make an in-play decision and get it right!

1) Why change a winning team?
2) Why insist on playing your beloved, average Liverpool players – Milner, Lallana, Clyne etc,..?
3) Have the balls to pick your own players. Drinkwater and Walcott aren't good enough.

I was going to say exactly the same thing. I missed the postmatch interviews though. Did Roy Hodgson say that they were still phenomenal?

Generally, England didn't get up a head of steam until they went behind to a very bad refereeing no-call. Hard to make a judgement on Stonesy as he has everything it takes to become a permanent fixture but at the moment looks like a liability. Perhaps he is not quite focused after all the hype about Chelski's big attempt to lure him and his losing his place at Everton this season but, whatever it is, he has not progressed as we all thought.

Barkley had a steady game but agree that Lallana, Milner and Sturridge were not impressive.

The bottom line is that England will achieve little at the Euros.

You party on!

We'll go to France and be taught a footballing lesson again. We might progress from the group stage but he hasn't the ability to set a team up or fire it up for any better. Our players are not all bad, we do have a good first 11 but maybe not much else.

There's too much favouritism of players who have consistently been over hyped, trust in Sky darlings and a complete lack of sending them out to deliver.

It's as if the FA have a philosophy which is "uninspire-fail-dissemble-repeat".

That's what you get when you hire the former manager of Fulham and West Brom who failed at the RS despite having a fortune to spend.

Must be some kind of record...

Stones continues to fuck around and be lightweight in defence. Barkley plays well – not brilliant.

That said, surely both these players should be in the team. Seriously, are Henderson, Milner or Lallana a patch on Barkley? Same goes for Smalling and Cahill – Roy even plays Phil Jones when he can!!

I can understand not playing Baines although we have no quality at left back and personally I would have him in the squad at least. Jags I would leave at home.

England will probably beat Russia in the first group game and eventually qualify into the knock-out stages, but once the big boys appear, England will be outclassed sooner or later.

The team that Hodgson put out tonight was short on class and width, while expecting strikers to score goals with little or no service – one decent cross throughout the game for Varny to score from.

I'm a big fan of Ross, but he has to be forced to play. This season, he has done much better for us, mainly down to the likes of Barry forcing him onto the ball. At international level, that simply won't happen unless you are at the very highest level; Ross is not.

The above is not a dig, only players like Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar and Zidane will have that undisputed respect of his team mates, were they look to that particular player to be the maestro.

Ross should have seen the performance of Alli the other day and decided to grab the game by the scruff of its neck, but he did not. Ross showed moments of quality, but they were few and far between. He should have been telling Drinkwater to give him the ball at every given chance, run to the wide players to tell them he wanted the ball, basically, dictate the game.

I feel Ross is well capable of the above, but he simply doesn't have the balls to do it.

He looks passive, he looks like someone who is simply happy with being selected as a bit-part player, a flash in the pan, a super sub.

He will go the Euros, he will probably do well, but he could do so much more.

The one thing that I do feel for Ross a little is, he was played in a 2-man midfield, which is something he hasn't done all season. Alli had his preferred roll behind one striker whereas Ross had a more disciplined roll.

John Stones looked assured only for his little slip, that was just unfortunate. He dwelled on the ball once or twice, but in general he looked a better prospect than most we have at centre-back.

Jags and Baines will probably miss out, Jags may go as a token gesture, but I think Baines could play every game for us from now til the end of the season, assist and score a goal every game, whilst keeping clean sheets, and still not be selected. He's always seemingly been a black sheep, don't understand why like, but for me, that's how it is. I will say Rose played well in both games, he would be my preferred choice over Bertrand and Gibbs, but I feel none of these left backs can lace Baines's boots, even now.

Only later did they actually acknowledge that he slipped because he was trying to turn with the ball instead of the the simple pass back to goalkeeper who could have cleared the ball

Clyne is okay, not on Walker's level; Milner, like Henderson, are both average at best, just players whose faces seem to fit with Woy. Lallana is nowhere near the level; he is an attacking midfielder who should only play central as he's not quick enough to play wide. Alli, Ross and Rooney are streets ahead of him.

I can't understand why v Germany we had Henderson taking all the corners and free kicks, whilst against Holland, Milner was given this duty.

Since when did they become dead-ball specialist?

Woy has to get his tongue out of the hoop of his RedShite entourage.

As me and others have said, Ross just doesn't seem to have the innate desire to be a great. That's not to say he's not worth a place in the Everton team but those playing with him need to know it'll have to be them, and not him, to grab a game by the scruff of the neck. I hope we sign someone soon with the No 10 capacity to provide what all successful teams need. Mentally he's patently not up to the very highest level and he too is far from being a sprog these days.

I don't want either of them sold but I really really want them, and others, to get the advice/coaching of a top-notch manager so that they and our club go on to potential greatness.

Only at Everton could we see such a demise in such a short space of time. If he goes to the Euros, it will be for reasons that are a huge mystery.... because his form is so far off international competition class, it's not true.

Such a shame but, from our selfish point of view, we have to hope there's a miracle and he rediscovers his class and his confidence ahead of Sunday's visit to Man Utd... though, after tonight, I'm not sure he can replace a similarly shaken Funes Mori, who's coming off the back of a couple of awful games.

Where Stones went from world beater to nervous liability, I'm not quite sure, but it's strange as everything you saw of him until last October-ish was so positive, maybe the injury impacted more than we thought... maybe that "Calm down, calm down" moment and the reaction to it affected the lad more than has been discussed. Whatever it is, I'd love to see him back, less jaunty but less error prone. Could he really move positions to defensive midfield?

People seem to forget that John has gone from a decent prospect to a future England captain who is a must for the Euros, all inside 7 months.

Ffs, cut the lad some slack, he's quality, and he's ours.

I for one am proud to have Stonesy at Everton.

Make no mistake, this is a test for the young man, how he bounces back from the first serious setback and loss of form and confidence since he came to everyone's attention.

I believe he will. We need Stones at his best, possibly as early as this weekend. Why? Because Funes Mori is not in the Argentina side tonight, not even listed among the 11 subs on the bench. Injured...?

What the fuck is going on between the the media and Everton FC?

Moshiri should appoint a media savvy representative urgently. Seriously, This is costing us image-related money and undermining the club big time now. It has gone way past personal, it has become institutionalized and must be addressed.

The Manchester and London based media seem to have an agenda against EFC and pundits generally talk in derogatory tones about our players.

Apart from the slip, Stones played as well as anybody tonight and he certainly didn't trip a Dutch player up in the area or put his hand out to give a penalty away.

Do we see anyone criticising Danny Rose? No... but they are all over John Stones.

I am also sick about hearing Delle Alli being shoved down everyone's throats. Anyone would think he's the new Pele.

Barkley was the best midfielder today, including Alli after he came on. Anyone note Alli lose the ball in a very dangerous area which got Holland into our box? Barkley would have been called out for that horribly.

Barkley played his role well; no mistakes... but didn't dominate or harass the opposition except for one storming run. Not as upfield as Alli was and I feel they both should be on the field. Milner contributed nothing and Lallana made one pass of significance and nothing else. But is that not enough?

I didn't buy into Baines starting but I can tell you he was better than Rose was last night on his worst day.

Let's be honest, if shite like Lallana, Henderson and Milner can get to wear the shirt, fuck me, so can John Stones.

Remember this. There is not a defender in world football who has not slipped, not at any level, but few would have been able to bring the ball from defence, drive at the opposition and thread the ball through all those players to lay a chance on a platter for Walcott.

I wonder why that's hardly getting a mention? It was easily the best bit of skill of the match.

I want Stones to play at Old Trafford and I want him playing football right under the noses of the Stretford End. I don't care how many heart attacks he induces.

The faint-hearted will want our other two center-halves to play of course. They may well have offered up ten chances in our last two Premier League games (not friendlies) but they are no nonsense... and only 5 chances were converted.

Altogether now... AVITTT!!!

Made to wear those strips would put any player off. Phenomenally shit both home and away kits.

Are we cursed? I mean 2 goals like that involving Everton players. Or is it just a measure of our players' mentality after the pathetic coaching of Martinez and his team?

We desperately need a manager with ambition who will improve the quality of some key positions and change the mentality of the squad to a winning one.

Forget 'media consultants' there's more than enough bullshitters around EFC these days. Martinez and his so-called coaches should be working night and day to help our Wonder Boy cut out the 'unfortunate' errors that he makes in every game he plays.

Of course he didn't decide to fall over but his hesitation over whether or not to pass back to the goalie was what caused him to do it. Yes, he's a star in the making but 'the making' is bloody expensive in result terms!

But they need time together.

Stones looked a bit short of match sharpness which is understandable, and Jags was obviously fouled for their second goal.

It is peculiar, however, how our defensive mishaps have been carried into the England set-up. Is it a confidence problem, or just bad luck? Difficult to find the solution really.

In contrast some his sumptuous passes indicate his special talents. I do wonder whether he could do an Eric Dier and move to defensive mid.

Both he and Ross were very good last night but the problems are bad when you make a mistake as last defender.

I have to agree with Anthony @59, Barkley had a decent game but he can do much better, doesn't get involved enough, he always, last night, looked like he was on the outside looking in. Like Anthony says he's got to want the ball more, instead of going with the flow, he's got to take over and demand the ball.

He just doesn't realise how good he is and how very much better he can be, too quiet and should, by now, have the confidence to assert his authority on the game. Come on, Ross you are much, much better than you are playing.

Returning to this England set-up, I genuinely think that with the quality around the attacking third, built around Kane and Vardy, they should get through the group stages, but then it depends upon how this young squad holds together when the going gets tough against the savvy teams.

I hope all the Everton players come back from their respective national teams uninjured, and indeed, uncorrupted by agents, but I guess I might as well be whistling Dixie!

I would play Gerry in the number ten, and give Ross a little rest. I actually thought he had a much better game against West Ham, when he played a bit deeper, so maybe that's where he will end up.

All the best players don't give a fuck for anyone once they cross the white lines. This is the thing that Barkley must develop because everything else is in place.

Sadly, his slip marred an otherwise good performance but I agree with the pundits for once who made the point that, as the last defender, he should have done the simple thing and either passed the ball back to the keeper or cleared it to either touchline. His slip was accidental, but he was again attempting to over complicate a simple clearance and the subsequent result was similar to what we've seen with Everton this season. Martinez's coaching showing through again?

Can't believe a couple of people are blaming Jags for the second goal. He was clearly fouled, first the guy pushed him in the back with both hands then nudged him with his leg just to make sure he lost his balance. A clear case of the ref wearing blue-tinted specs, I think.

Stones's through pass was superb. Try him in midfield, as Ray Roche says.

So he can do it if he's encouraged to do so.

Something that I did find interesting was that when Alli came on, it was not at Ross's expense; in the last two games, they have been in the same team. I think Roy may yet play them both in the same team from the start in France, as it give us much more fluidity in midfield.

As for Stones, slip yes but the media will hang the question mark over him. No doubt he can find a pass, but he has got to get tougher and aggressive as he still has a tendency to look casual.

Jags, solid and dependable and if it was between Jags and Stones for a place, I would bet Jags would get it on this basis. Hodgson will take no chances at the back.

Stones played well apart from the obvious slip. I don't think the media have an agenda against him. I think it's the contrary – they really build him up and then are disappointed when he makes a mistake.

Alli has taken over from Barkley as the saviour of English football, but did nothing when he came on. What I find bizarre is that Milner had an absolute shocker and no-one seems to have picked up on that and Rose was also poor.

To be fair I think Lallana was better than against Germany. Sturridge did nothing.

Barkley was very good at times. Play him deeper and he has so much more scope to work with; once into his stride, he is unstoppable – it is a risk as his defensive work isn't great but I would sooner see him deeper.

I agree with the number of posts who have praised Ross's performance but who also point out that he can do so much more. I think it was Don Alexander above, who pointed out he doesn't have that innate desire to take the game by the scruff of the neck because he certainly has the ability.

So near, yet so far with Ross – but that, said I pray he is an Everton player for many years to come, as I do with Stones but I fear the summer will see him depart along with goalscorer Rom for Belgium last night.

What an absolute paranoid post. Total rubbish too.

I liked Stones going forward and Barkley's performance.

Just because they're Everton players shouldn't give them a free ride on the forum. I think its fair to say we are not criticising in a vindictive way, in any case who gives two hoots what we think!

For what it's worth, my opinion is, John's slip couldn't have come at a worse time for the lad, I don't blame him one jot for it though it was just unfortunate. I thought apart from a couple of chancy passes, his forward movement and passes were excellent.

I think Ross needs a good kick up the arse, he has much more in his locker and it's about time he got some urgency in his play. He's frustrating to watch and I think Don in post 63 sums him up well when he says he needs to get the game by the scruff of the neck. Woy or Roberto need to give him a stern talking to, because he has the ability to be much better than he's showing us.

No amount of kicking up the arse is going to make a difference, I fear. It's in Ross's head that the battle needs to be fought and he's the only one who can fight it. I have wondered whether a psychologist could do the job but I doubt it.

Here's hoping it just clicks into place somehow because it would be a great sight to see a mentally relaxed and confident Barkley.

Maybe a kick up the arse is rather strong, but surely either Martinez or Hodgson have told him about he needs to get involved much more in games, and that he needs to use the natural talent that he's obviously got, much more also.

If we keep Barkley, Stones and Lukaku then, we will be a club heading to great times. In my view John Stones is as good as we have ever had. He is like Bobby Moore with pace.

My main concern is that living overseas I can only get to see one perhaps 2 games a season at Goodison, so the rest of my experience is limited to Sky, Be-In Sport and re-runs of Match of the Day.

In all three channels for the last 3 years I have only ever seen one commentary where Everton were the favoured team – the 3-0 defeat of the Arse.

For what it's worth, I work in the legal side of project management for a living, and fair mindedness and objectivity become a habit. In spite of that, I am hopelessly biased as an Evertonian and proud of that, but I can put it into perspective.

What is more insidious than the generally one-sided commentary (which is usually easier given how Martinez makes playing the game, especially defensively, very difficult), is the take on transfers. John Stones was being feted and pressurized to join Chelsea as if Everton were just nothing to be considered. That is not paranoia, that is media and commercial forces at work and it has been going on for too long. Unless of course you are a Redshite et al.

Look again at the media reactions to the last two England games... Comment after comment about the limitations of Everton players, little if anything positive. Complete contrast regarding the Liverpool contingent.

You even hear supporters of other teams acknowledging the point from time to time. I repeat, it is not paranoia, it is loaded interest AGAINST Everton FC and I for one am pissed off with it.

Watching the game, one of the differences I noticed is the amount of times English players get into an open space and raise their hands for a pass and are ignored.

As far as Stones goes, he showed the good and bad sides of his play and I believe his good sides far outweigh his bad. The major problem with Stones is who is to blame for his bad play, that has turned one of the most exiting and developing young central players of a year ago, into a young player whose confidence is slowly leaving him? Is it (a) overconfidence in believing all the hype written about him? Or is it (b) poor defensive coaching by the club?

Everton's players are going to have to be exceptional in international games to get any praise from the media as Everton are definitely not flavor of the month and last night's game proved that, with all the attention on Stones's slip, and Jagielka supposedly not strong enough in the tackle that let in the Dutch for their second goal.

This raises the question again, why is a team with so many internationals in their squad, some of whom are going to warrant really high fees if they are transferred, doing so poorly in the Premier League???

Not having seen the game myself, I wondered if that was the result of having three Everton players in the side?

Lack of intensity has often been our downfall and I put that down to Martinez's obsession with keeping possession.

So, as soon as he does it for Engerland they have dropped on him like a ton of crap with a stream of criticism following his Slippy G impersonation last night... er... does that make ME paranoid as well?

No injury.