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Derek Knox
1 Posted 29/10/2020 at 07:31:13
Good on you Rob, highlighting this unsung Manager outside of Everton circles. He was definitely 'old school' but he did achieve results by it and commanded a respect from players and fans alike.

I have pre-ordered Dave Prentice's book as part of an early Xmas present to myself, it should make a good read. I would be very interested as I'm sure many other Evertonians would also be, in seeing the clip that you are trying to track down.

I wish you success in being able to track it down, there is always someone out there who may be able to oblige, well I hope so anyway.

Wouldn't Granada Studios Manchester have something in their archive footages? I believe everything that has ever aired whether it be on a newsreel or a show is kept.

Best of luck Rob, and thanks for the insight.

Tony Abrahams
2 Posted 29/10/2020 at 07:58:38
So David Prentice has written a book about Harry Catterick, Derek? I've been told that he was the best manager our club has ever had, so hopefully I might get a chance to read a bit about the man, who hated the media!
Derek Knox
3 Posted 29/10/2020 at 08:35:36
Tony, not just specifically about Harry, but a look at Everton over the last 45 years, there is a reference to it on another thread and a chance to pre-order. I believe it's a mixture of facts, stories and a bit of humour thrown in.
Derek Thomas
4 Posted 29/10/2020 at 09:32:25
Tony @ 2; back in the 60s Harry was convinced that too much money and TV was bad for the game.

The BBC, after starting MotD with the rs, had by 1969, got their heads right up the backsides of the rs, Man. U. & Leeds. When they pulled out and popped up like a Meerkat to see what was actually going on, they saw, Lo and behold, the Everton were more or less running away with the League.

So Sports Night with Coleman did an in depth special on Everton with Harry in the firing line.

Bearing in mind...except for savvy hadn't been invented yet...and tbh, I think the normally taciturn Harry, was seduced a bit by the attention and glamour and allowed Coleman to lead him through the interview.

Coleman showed clip after clip...just explain for the viewers at home Mr Catterick what you're doing in this move.
And Harry dissected it chapter and verse...gave away the secrets of how we played.

For all I know he may have fallen for the were off the air, what did you really mean about Sandy Brown being the worst player in the Harry told them - and the BBC broadcasted it - damning Sandy with faint praise.

All this of course did the team and Sandy no good at all...add in the OG soon after and we had to go and buy Keith Newton as a replacement quick smart.

Harry was livid and banned all cameras forth with...which is why we have hardly any footage, except for 20 sec news clips of some of the greatest football we ever played.

51 years on, The BBC, (and the rs) nothing changes.

Brian Harrison
5 Posted 29/10/2020 at 10:20:03
There is no denying Cattericks record as manager of Everton, and he is to date our 2nd most successful manager. But I personally thought that if Moores had left Carey in charge he would have been just as successful as Catterick. The standing joke amongst the players was if Catterick came on to the training field with his tracksuit on they knew the TV cameras must be coming, Harry let his coaches do the training and fitness drills. Also lets not forget at the time with the financial backing of Moores we could out spend any club in the country, which helps a lot.

Back then the European Cup was in its infancy, and Catterick was not a big fan of it, so while Stein,Busby and Shankly had the vision of what this competition would become and embraced it under Catterick it was never very high on his agenda. I think the first time I saw any foreign sides play English sides was when Wolves under Stan Cullis played a few floodlight games against I think a Russian side maybe Locomotiv. Unusually these games were televised as the only games that were televised were England Internationals which were normally played on either Tuesday or Wednesday afternoon.

For me Catterick made 2 really poor decisions regarding 2 players, first the selling of Bobby Collins to Leeds, Bobby was one of our most influential players and he was replaced by Dennis Stevens. Stevens wasnt a bad player but he was never in the same class as Bobby Collins. Just to highlight how big a mistake that was Bobby won the PFA player of the year award in his first season at Leeds. The 2nd poor decision was the selling of Alan Ball, another strong character like Collins, maybe Catterick felt undermined by these strong characters. But Ball was loved by all Evertonians and was the heartbeat of a very good team.

I think Catterick because of his personality was liked and admired by all us Evertonians, but he didnt engender the same love and effection that Shankly was held in. I think he hated that fact, but he always came across as cold and aloof, now that might not be what he was really like but thats the impression he seemed to give.

So while Harry will be remembered as the 2nd most successful manager, I personally think if we had gone for the likes of Brian Clough, then he would have built a dynasty much bigger than Shankly did at Liverpool. Also Clough won leagues and back to back European Cups spending a pittance as to what Harry spent.

Dennis Stevens
6 Posted 29/10/2020 at 12:40:49
Interesting thoughts, Brian. I've often wondered what the impact on both clubs would have been if our Board had tried & succeeded in persuading Bob Paisley to cross the Park prior to Shankly's last flounce. Say, about '71 or '72.
Kieran Kinsella
7 Posted 29/10/2020 at 13:05:15
I concur with Derek. Not football related but I've various friends who've acquired obscure footage from archives at the Beeb and local stations. I would imagine someone at Granada can connect with their archive department
Ray Roche
8 Posted 29/10/2020 at 13:22:27
Brian, excellent post. And, as I recall, accurate. Catterick was short sighted and couldn't see the bigger picture, didn't realise how the game was growing OFF the pitch. Shankly did hence the RS getting so much exposure. Plus the emergence of the City of Liverpool on the worldwide music stage and and we always be in their shadow. Catterick's naïveté in giving away our tactics etc due to his falling for the interviewers cajoling led to, as you say, our banning of cameras at Goodison. I was gutted when Collins left and felt the same when Ball was sold because it was ‘good business ‘.
A flawed character in some ways.
Len Hawkins
9 Posted 29/10/2020 at 13:32:41
When Catterick hung up his suit the players were more approachable and often seen by fans in the pub and I was told by one such supporter from Formby who regularly saw players that they wanted Clough but Moores didn't want anyone challenging his authority.
Obviously someone will know more than my second hand near 50 year old news.
Patrick McFarlane
10 Posted 29/10/2020 at 13:46:57
Catterick should have been replaced as soon as he became ill and it should've been a top name to replace him. Clough and Shankly were not Everton types as the club was a very small 'c' conservative club at the time, and either of those would have been disruptive to the club. I don't think Shankly would have been welcomed at Goodison, but it seems his stock rises with each passing year, and whilst he did great things with the other lot, he went consecutive seasons trophyless between 1967 and 1972.

Clough might have come but again he was very single-minded and he wouldn't have cared less about Everton FC and its reputation, he could just as easily have failed at Goodison as he did at Leeds.

Alan Ball's departure was rumoured to be as much to do with Alan's personal issues at the time of his sale, rather than purely football-related matters. Catterick may have wanted to sell him but there were other factors at work too.

The only person who fitted the bill, both in terms of ability and personality was the late Sir Bobby Robson, who if it hadn't have been for an unwanted leak to or by the Echo, would have suited Everton and he probably would have arrested Everton's decline long before Howard took charge.

Catterick was manager of Everton FC during possibly the most competitive decade in English top-flight history, Busby, Nicholson, Mercer, Revie, Shankly, Clough et al Most of the top clubs were looking to become champions at the start of each and every season and many of them were involved in the latter stages of the domestic cups most of the time.

To say that only the money that Moore's gave him, was what made Catterick a good manager is to belittle him and his talent, he produced two tremendous football teams and his tenure wasn't a three or four year blip of success that we may yearn for today, it was a decade of consistency that should have produced many more trophies, but as I said it was an extremely competitive environment to work in.

It is likely that because the Board and John Moores' appreciated Catterick's value to the Everton cause that they didn't replace him sooner, hoping beyond hope that he would recover from his illness and recapture his former glories, in hindsisght that was probably a mistake but a very understandable one.

Catterick's contribution to Everton FC shouldn't be underestimated and it certainly shouldn't be compared unfavourably to that outspoken Scottish manager.

Dave Abrahams
11 Posted 29/10/2020 at 13:51:27
Dennis (6), Harry asked Joe Fagan to join him at Bellefield but Joe declined, might have done Everton the world of good.

Harry Catterick made some mistakes, name me a manager who didn't, he was Everton's best manager ever for me, sacrificed his health for the club by taking on too much, he should have shared the load but didn't trust anyone enough to help him.

John Carey was a lovely man, a gentleman, the players loved him, maybe because he was too lax with them, John Moores saw right through him and thought the players were not fit enough under him, so he had to go and Catterick did what he was brought to do and did it very successfully until his health gave out on him, thanks for the memories Harry, there were many happy ones.

Barry Rathbone
12 Posted 29/10/2020 at 13:58:30
Busby and Shankly created empires out of lost causes if Revie had stayed at Leeds the same could have been said of him. Harry never did and the sale of Alan Ball without adequate replacement created the opposite effect.

Kudos to Harry for winning stuff but as the Mersey Millionaires the door to establishing a dynasty lay wide open and we never stepped through.

That is the reason he is not mentioned alongside the trio named

Patrick McFarlane
13 Posted 29/10/2020 at 14:13:49
Barry #12
Immediately prior to Catterick's arrival, what had Everton won? Post-war the club had endured relegation and finished mid-table in the Second Division, of course, Moore's money helped but as we've seen ourselves in the last five years, that's not enough to guarantee that great teams are built. To be honest I really don't care where Catterick sits in the pantheon of great managers but only Kendall at Goodison, comes close to matching his ability to produce good sides who played good football and put silverware in the cabinet.

The single most problematic issue during Catterick's tenure was the silly one-city-one-club rule which deprived Catterick's Everton of European involvement on too many occasions, also it has been reported that Moores wished to purchase the best talents in Europe and beyond but that was impossible due to strict employment laws in place in Britain at the time.

If anyone was privileged enough to have seen Catterick's teams in full flow, I'm sure they would fully appreciate Harry's contribution, was he perfect, of course not, but he was who he was and he did what he did, I really don't see the point of wishing that history had been different.

Derek Knox
14 Posted 29/10/2020 at 14:37:40
Dave @ 11, slightly before I got really involved with Everton, but wasn't it John Carey who got sacked, by a taxi being ordered for him?
Stan Schofield
15 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:04:22
Patrick@13: In my opinion you're absolutely spot on with those posts. Catterick created not just good sides, but tremendous ones that played a quality of football that was very unusual in this country at that time.

Although we had money, it's notable that 7 of the first team regulars in the 69-70 title winning side (arguably THE greatest Everton side to date) had come through Everton's younger ranks.

I started watching Everton in 1961 at the age of 7, and to witness two such brilliant sides in that decade was a priviledge, especially for someone in such formative years. It was 'cool' to follow Everton as a kid at that time, because we were constantly at the top, had a trophy haul comparable with the other top clubs, but we were also unmatchable in terms of entertainment value if you loved great one-touch football played through midfield. That latter quality cannot be underestimated, because it made such great memories, for example in the 68-69 season when we didn't win a trophy but played like Brazil.

It's true that we should have taken the 70s by storm. However, we achieved a quality in the decade of the 60s that is both memorable for those who saw it, and difficult to convey to those who didn't. And that was down to Catterick.

Barry Rathbone
16 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:22:25

"but as we've seen ourselves in the last five years, that's not enough to guarantee that great teams are built"

I don't see how you arrive at the conclusion when the real ESTABLISHED money bags clubs of City et al have contended everything over that period. Those clubs present the unassailable dynasties of the English game evidenced by the renewed proposition of invitations to a European super league.

Our finances are improved but not in their league we are not the financial giant of the Catterick era.

I have acknowledged the trophies won but it was an opportunity missed contrasting starkly with what Shankly created on relative buttons.

Remember they had to run a hose from a house across the road to water the pitch when he arrived.

I know it's difficult to be objective about anything red but the man was extraordinary with only post Munich Busby and Revie of his era anywhere near

Chris Williams
17 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:26:06

In his book, Brian Harris wrote that the feeling among many of the players was that Johnny Carey favoured the Irish players too much in his selections. I can't say whether he did or he didn't, but if there was dissension it was maybe an issue.

The players Catterick signed quite quickly gives a flavour of the difference he made. Stevens, Kay, Morrisey (I think). Great players all, but plenty of steel too.

Later in the decade and beyond, his great home grown players, Labone, Harvey, Harris, Wright, Temple, got older and injured. Royle And Husband too, and that conveyor belt dried up a hell of a lot, with replacements not as good.

Signings also got a lot worse after the glory days of Kendall, Ball, etc. Plenty of money spent still but the new players not in the same class.

Whether some of those things are related to his own health issues I don't know. But he was certainly underrated for his achievements but he didn't leave a long-standing legacy unfortunately.

Robs own book about Harry is well worth a read for people who haven't read it yet.

Dave Abrahams
18 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:29:17
Derek (14), I think the story was that John Moores told Johnny Carey that wanted to speak to him later in the hotel, after an Everton game in London, while they were in a taxi going to the hotel, but Mr Carey insisted they have the talk now, resulting in Johnny getting told the bad news there and then.

Harry Catterick had packed in his managership at Sheffield Wednesday a couple of weeks earlier, so it wasn't hard to guess where he would finish up.

Chris Williams
19 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:30:58
The money for Liverpool to buy St John, Yeats, Milne Thompson, Stevenson was also provided by John Moores.
Barry Rathbone
20 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:37:40

I was told by Moores's ex-gardener that the Anfield gate money was brought in bags to the house to pay him back.

Chris Williams
21 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:40:48
It wouldn't surprise me one bit Barry.
Brian Harrison
22 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:40:56

John Moores certainly had shares in Liverpool at the time, which you cant do today, and I think his brother Cecil Moores also had shares in Liverpool. And it was Cecils son David who inherited his fathers wealth who went on to become chairman of Liverpool.

Chris Williams
23 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:42:42

I think the shares were all in Cecil's name but could be wrong. Either way they ended up in the hands of an idiot.

Dave Abrahams
24 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:46:01
Chris (17), going on memory Chris I'm not sure there were many Irish players there when Carey took over, only Mick Meagan, who played a part under both Johnny and Harry, if Farrell, Eglington, Donavon and O'Neill were still there they were at the very tail end of their time there.

You are correct that Catterick added steel to to the team in Kay, Stevens, Morrissey and a very good goalkeeper in Gordon West, and I agree Rob's book on Harry Catterick is an excellent read, and he explains and gives a different point of view on Alan Ball's departure from Everton, also Bobby Collins leaving the Blues, my favourite Everton player, although his replacement, Dennis Stevens, also became a favourite of mine, not as skilful as Bobby but had the same frame of mind, a winner who gave up and was a great team player.

Barry Rathbone
25 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:48:33
The support of LFC by Sir John has always irked me it was bad enough the blaggards were created by Everton people even worse we financed their renaissance
Chris Williams
27 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:52:31

An awful lot of money found its way back into the Moores family once the club was sold to those Texans.

With luck that deal might have finished them off.

Jay Harris
28 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:55:01
Talking about brown paper bags it was rumoured at the time that if the team played well Sir John would send cash in brown paper envelopes down to the dressing room for each player.

On the subject of Harry Catterick Jimmy Gabriel sister Sheila used to work for me and she told me Gabriel hated Catterick because he was so tough on the players often making them play while injured.

I don't suppose the players were complaining when picking up league and cup winners medals though.

Brian Harrison
29 Posted 29/10/2020 at 15:58:19
Many years ago I used to manage a team that played in the Kirkby Newtown league and one that played in the Cyms league in Liverpool. Wanting to know and learn about the benifits of different Systems, I wrote to both Catterick and Shankly asking for advice and both replied. Catterick suggested I buy Walter Winterbottoms book on coaching he was the ex England manager. Shankly replied inviting me to Melwood when the first team was training. Sadly I was to scared to take up Shanklys offer what an idiot I was.

Some years later the pub I went in had run functions to raise money to buy a sunshine coach for the disabled, and Shankly had agreed to make the presentation. I picked up Shankly from his home in Bellfield avenue and drove him to the pub to make the presentation. I have to say just talking to him about football in the car was just pure joy. He spent 40 minutes making a speech about how we had collected all this money, and Shanklys speech was one that Churchill would have been proud of, Mind Shankly like me was a staunch socialist so he probably may have taken exception to comparing him to Churchill. Listening to him that night made me realize how those Liverpool players must have felt ten feet tall after his teamtalk.

Chris Williams
30 Posted 29/10/2020 at 16:00:41

I must say I don't remember so many Irish players around, certainly once you got beyond 59/60. Brian was there a good while I think, but his own place on the wing in those days wasn't under threat.

I always think of him as Harris B, as distinct from Harris J, in the programme.

Dave Abrahams
31 Posted 29/10/2020 at 16:02:09
Above post (24), last line should have read “never gave up”. My mistake, not the “word checker” for once.
Ray Roche
32 Posted 29/10/2020 at 16:05:49
There's no denying that Catterick was a great manager who brought success, and built two great sides that played fabulous football but, as has been stated, maybe he should have released the reins earlier, when his health faltered.

Dave, I seem to recall Catterick saying that the sale of Ball was ‘Good business‘. Is that the same as the version in Rob's book?

Dave Abrahams
33 Posted 29/10/2020 at 16:10:03
Chris (30), yes Jimmy and Brian Harris came through the ranks together in the early fifties and Brian stayed at Goodison for many years, he played in the 1966 cup final, I think he was annoyed with Catterick when he was transferred and Everton demanded a fee off Newport?Brian thought it should have been a free transfer after the service he had given Everton and he would have got a better deal off Newport.
Dave Abrahams
34 Posted 29/10/2020 at 16:21:30
Ray (32), Ray he might have said that, but the story is more about Alan's tantrums and demands in the last year of his time at Goodison Park, it illustrates his anger at his team mates in training asking at one time “ How can I play with the likes of these”. He was starting to get criticism off his fellow players with some of his outbursts and apparent demeaning of Catterick himself after some matches.

He might have rued his behaviour because one player said he came out of the room when Harry told him he had given Arsenal permission to talk to him, and he was crying, saying to the player “ He's selling me “ he couldn't believe it, and there is no doubt he loved the club and loved being here.

Dave Abrahams
35 Posted 29/10/2020 at 16:28:55
Brian Harris was sold to Cardiff City for £10,000 who later sold him to Newport County, later managed Newport and was assistant manager at Cardiff, I've checked these last facts.
Stan Schofield
36 Posted 29/10/2020 at 16:56:48
Barry@16: As you say, City have won plenty of trophies. And in great style. But Utd have spent a lot with not much trophy output, and Liverpool have spent loads in the PL era whilst taking nearly 30 years to win the league. In other words, money is obviously needed to get to the top consistently, but is not sufficient by itself. Catterick managed to use the money from Moores in a very effective, entertaining, and memorable way.

Shankley was indeed remarkable, but in a different way from Catterick. The 'dynasty' (to use your term) that he started (with the help of money from Tom Williams, et al) ultimately produced a lot of trophies, but that QUANTITY never compared with the 60s-era QUALITY of Everton. This latter point is only my opinion, but it seems to shut up red mates when they try to remind me how many trophies they've won.

Ken Kneale
37 Posted 29/10/2020 at 18:05:42
Stan - you are very much correct - Liverpool's play was agricultural in comparison to any of Catterick's teams which were easy on the eye.

There is no doubt that the media of the day got their own back on Harry for his lack of cooperation as they saw it - even giving the 1969/70 writers award to Revie at Leeds when they won nothing that season and we had romped to the championship.

The sale of Ball was a tragedy for all parties - Catterick included I suspect and he retained his admiration for the player by claiming good business (in a one off- financial transaction I guess it was ) rather than suggest fall out with team mates and other rumours of gambling debts. For all his qualities, many of the players also expressed how Alan Ball's constant moaning had a negative effect as captain - and a contrast to their leader of the previous 6/7 years in Brian Labone.

My own view is that had Catterick managed to secure Archie Gemmill from Preston as he tried and failed to do (apparently Clough slept on Gemmill's sofa and cooked the family breakfast the next morning) we might have seen a recovery of the team to a degree but as things slipped further and further, it was only really Kendall who continued to perform at a level and probably kept us out of the relegation area. Harry's health and then the heart attack finished us.

I think so called lack of dynasty is partly because of Catterick's media dislike and their dislike of him - the BKH side fully deserves to be in the upper echelon of any judgement on the best footballing sides ever to win the league - no mean feat at the time when Liverpool's finest were players like Tommy Smith with only one aim in mind - usually the opposing players legs. The BKH side with the protection given now would I think have lasted longer without the crippling injuries to key players such as Harvey and Royle which exacerbated the downfall

Stan Schofield
38 Posted 29/10/2020 at 18:37:54
Ken, yes at the time Ball was made official captain, after dislaying captain qualities so often up til then, it was questionable as to whether it was a good idea. Labone had been such a steadying influence.

This business of Everton's quality in the 60s is a massive deal. Currently, Liverpool supporters absolutely hate it when it's pointed out that the quality of City's football is on another level, and it effectively shuts them up, which is important given the crass lack of style that many of them have. They have the same problem when history is discussed (and they like to talk history, given their trophy count), and the fact that our 60s-era quality is superior to any level of quality that they've ever reached. Quality versus quantity. Something we have Catterick to thank for.

We only won one trophy with Ball, Harvey and Kendall, but there's a statue of them at Goodison. That's a measure of how quality is appreciated compared with quantity.

Clive Rogers
39 Posted 29/10/2020 at 09:00:09
Dave, 33, Brian Harris went to Cardiff City from Everton in 1966 and played 149 games for them and was very highly respected, before moving to Newport County.
Dave Abrahams
40 Posted 30/10/2020 at 09:33:09
Clive (39), thanks Clive for your post, I did check later on to which club Brian was transferred to and posted a response to my earlier post @ (35),thanks again Clive.
Clive Rogers
41 Posted 30/10/2020 at 09:54:49
Dave, oops, sorry, didn't see that. I was a big fan of Brian Harris and followed his career after he left us.
Brian Wilkinson
42 Posted 30/10/2020 at 13:08:09
For all those mentioning Brian Clough, yes could have been a good option, however let us not forget, he only had his success with Peter Taylor by his side.

Neither were as good on their own, but together they were up there with the very best.

Dave Abrahams
43 Posted 31/10/2020 at 12:10:30
Clive (41), no problem Clive, in fact you were trying to help me out.

Brian (42), yes people forget how influential Taylor was in assisting Clough, especially in scouting players for him, he also persuaded Clough to take managing clubs after injury curtailed his career. Taylor was the goalkeeper at Middlesborough when Clough became the goalscoring striker sensation there.

Brian also has a very serious drinking problem in the last few years of his time at Forest, which got out of control and didn't help him or Forest, sadly, a maverick who became a picture of pity to see him in that state.

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