Premier League — Week 28

Hilarious goal for Burnley!!!!

Game at Burnley still 1-1, but great use of VAR just a few minutes ago. Arsenal awarded a penalty after it appeared Erik Pieters had deflected a goal bound shot onto the bar with his arm. Pieters given a straight red card. However, following a VAR review, the ball clearly struck Pieters on the shoulder, so no penalty and red card rescinded.

Incredible final minutes at Turf Moor.

Game finished 1-1. Arsenal drop points in their quest to get near the European positions. Now 8 points behind us and we've a game in hand. I think we'll be in Europe next season, which competition though, remains to be seen.

Hello Rob,

Nice to see you posting here!

Wasn't that Burnley goal hilarious?

Cheeky fucker, Michael. Yep, certainly was a flukey goal!!

Marriner at sea again. VAR is a good thing, at least for now heh heh.

Hehe...

But they decided against a penalty for an obvious handball on an outstretched arm... Proximity?

Michael, I can't understand what's a pen and what's not regards handball nowadays. Defender is too close with an outstretched arm so no penalty?

Agreed, a horizontal arm should be a penalty. One would think.

Three games this weekend.

Man City do the business against the Manc reds.

Brighton pull an upset over Leicester.

We win Monday.

Andy Crooks should lay down a "cheeky" bet on that to happen.

Southampton just given a penalty but why didn't the Sheffield player get a red card? He was last man when he brought the Southampton player down from behind and denied a goal-scoring opportunity.

Bill, you can bring a player down about 8 yards from goal for a stonewall penalty and, despite being the last man, avoid a red card. Meanwhile, Jagielka on Thursday night brought an Aston Villa player down about 35-40 yards from goal and was given a red card for being the last man and denying a goal-scoring opportunity.

Go figure!!

We need to score more goals! We are the third lowest scoring side in the top 10 after AstonVilla and Arsenal.

Take a bow, Adams. What a strike.

Rob, so you are better as last man bringing the man down from behind in the penalty area, and stopping a goal-scoring opportunity, as the keeper could save the penalty, as you say, Go figure!!

Bill, I reckon there's more chance of scoring a penalty than there is a free-kick from 35-40 yards, so I'm at a loss. The only thing I can think of regarding the penalty, is that wasn't the Southampton player facing away from the goal, and therefore not a "direct" run on goal?

Sounds daft I know, but I'm sure it's something to do with that. Or maybe it's now deemed sufficient punishment just awarding the penalty without sending the player off? Yet, in the Burnley game, Erik Pieters was shown a straight red card for denying a goal-scoring opportunity, only to have it rescinded after VAR ruled it wasn't a penalty.

Where's Mike Gaynes when you need him??

Rob, if my ageing memory recalls, they did actually officially change the rule a couple of years back to avoid double jeopardy so to speak.

The fact a penalty has been awarded and increased likelihood of a goal, the red card was taken out of the equation as it was viewed as double punishment.

That's how I understand it now.

Danny, what's the difference then, between fouling a forward to give a penalty away, but not getting a red card despite being the last man, than handling the ball to deny a goal-scoring opportunity and get a straight red card as Erik Pieters did earlier on, before it was rescinded?

Ellis Simms on the score sheet for Blackpool.

I didn't see the Pieters incident, Rob, so you'll have to explain that to me. I just believe they changed the rule for the penalty situation for "double jeopardy" reasons.

Not arguing the rights / wrongs, I just think that was changed a couple of seasons back.

Good to hear Don.

That was dire. Hopefully Aston Villa v Wolves will be more entertaining. Always an interesting one for me as the West Midlands in-laws are split down the middle between the two, the wife being Villa.

I'm here, Rob. The way Danny has explained it is pretty much right, although that only applies to the "last man" foul. Handling an inbound shot on the goal line isn't denial of a goalscoring opportunity, it's denial of an actual goal, and so it's still eligible for a pen and a red. An attacker coming in alone on the keeper isn't guaranteed to score -- he could still miss or the keeper could save -- so the "double jeopardy" is considered too severe for that situation.

Of course, that could change by breakfast tomorrow.

The best explanation I can find is:

A referee can choose to use the award of a penalty as punishment enough for less serious fouls in the penalty area and therefore avoid using a red card to a player. This is to prevent a team being punished twice for the same offense. However, for dangerous and foul play such as "intentionally or recklessly bringing a man down as the last defender" the award of a straight red and a penalty are often given.

This was given to the Arsenal defender in a game when it was deemed, he brought a player down from behind in the area and never touched the ball.

The only thing I can see in the Sheffield game is the player brought the Southampton player down from behind in the area but touched the ball as well.

Danny / Mike.

Basically, a goal-bound shot from an Arsenal player struck Pieters on the shoulder. Straight away, Marriner gave a penalty and a straight red card to Pieters as he thought it hit his arm. After a VAR review, it was clearly seen that the ball had struck Pieters on the shoulder so the penalty was not given and the red card rescinded. A drop ball was given to Burnley.

I did see that one, Rob, sorry I didn't associate the incident with the player's name. I think VAR got that one right. It definitely hit him on the shoulder, so no handball, no penalty.

For me, I want the offside changed. VAR isn't getting it wrong, the offside rule is wrong.

What happened to the "daylight" rule we had a few years ago that gave clear advantage to the attacker? Don't get me wrong, we'd have fallen foul of that against West Brom and others. but in the broader aspect of the game of football, I'd rather offside was only when there is daylight between the last defender and attacker, not the thread of a shirt, an extended fingernail of the fact someone wears size 10 boots instead of size 8.

Feet should be the yardstick for offsides, not arms, fingers, or bunions, even if it is a headed goal, feet should be the deciding factor... feet I say... feet!

That was beautiful by Wolves until it went over the bar.

Miss of the season, Dale.

How do you actually knock it over the bar when you are practically on the goal line?

Great feint and subsequent delivery from the Wolves player from the corner. Unlucky from Coady, but that miss was more difficult to execute than toe pegging it over the line with a loose stud.

Now there was something you don't see every week. A linesman, possibly 20-30 yards away from a throw in, giving a foul throw against the thrower. I'm sure he said "his back foot was over the line".

Watching the Sky game tonight, it's easy to see the scale of the task of getting wins. Aston Villa and Wolves are average sides but few sides would be confident of beating them now.

Great save but what was Ross Barkley thinking?

Marvellous save by Martinez. If it had been Pickford, it would have been luck.

Watched Pickford's save again today, Martin. Stunning. What I liked was his decision-making. If you look closely, he is initially going with the right hand but then seems to realise he might not get enough on it so switches hands and palms it away. Like I say, the save alone was great but it was the decision-making that impressed me even more.

Martin #33, ha ha, very good

Watkins would have been a good buy but maybe King is too.

Second result to go in our favour today. Keep the chasing pack for a European spot at arms length.

Rob #37, we are just very lucky at the moment obviously.

Villa proving they are a one man team, Grealish out, they're pretty ordinary.

Saw some very laboured play there today. If we can maintain our energy while the others carry on in Europe, it's looking good for us now.

Get a result against Chelsea and win the game in hand (Aston Villa), we are pretty much consolidating being in the top 8.

Keep doing what we're doing, pick up the points and stay in the pack. Europe is very realistic. Champions League there to challenge for.

Speaking of the game in hand against Villa, I don't think it has been arranged yet has it, or have I missed something?

No, still waiting on that Neil.

Danny, cheers. The sooner the better while Grealish is out, definitely fancy our chances at the moment.

Brighton ahead!

Lallana. Always a favourite of mine (snort).

Brighton trying to help it is up to us to thank them.

On another note, BT graphic for Monday night v Chelsea showing us in mint green kit, would much rather play in amber against them.

Everton v Aston Villa May 1st, or is that not the rearranged game?

Jeff, I think that's our home game against them. Always been scheduled for that date.

Getting interesting if Brighton don't get beat tonight.

You never know.

Jeff 48,

I hope we wear the yellow kit! I'm not sure we've ever lost in the Hummel yellow kit!?

Decent save Sanchez, Leicester coming into it.

Brighton hit the post.

Rob #50,

So we're going to play Villa twice in a week no doubt, interesting, be like them Christmas-day/Boxing day fixtures from yesteryear we used to hear of.

C'mon BHA!

Brighton second offside.

Lallana is a Blue isn't he?

Was a blue, Tony!

No idea, Jeff. There is no date showing on the official website for Aston Villa away.

If Leicester lose and Man United lose tomorrow in their derby.

Would we take a draw on Monday? I assume we'll just do what we do away from home now: play it canny and see what happens.

Let's just stay calm.

Sanchez is so impressive in coming for balls in his area. Dominates his whole area.

Agreed Brent, is he a “maybe?

Always like Bissouma in midfield

Maybe, Jeff

FFS, what were you saying, Brent?

Nah we'll leave him alone Brent

Brighton keeper gives Leicester a goal

Jeez. Me and my mouth.

That is terrible keeping. Gawd that was awful.

Never mind. Dammit.

Brent, that was witchcraft!

Was that luck?

Brent (74), yes, that would count as poor luck.
What is the problem that some people have with the concept of ‘luck'? People are acting as though saying something not under your control going your way is like believing the moon is made of cheese.
It's just a concept, not a presence or a force. A goalie using his athletic ability to pull off a great save is, of course, not luck because he is aiming to do it. If he was away with the fairies and facing the wrong way and a shot just happened to hit the back of his head and ping away to safety there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that is lucky.
If I step outside my front door just as a fifty pound note lands at my feet then I had some good luck irrespective of any knowledge of current meteorological conditions.
It's just a concept people, there is no mysticism about it and there is no shame in acknowledging it happens.

I wasn't really being serious, Si. I think luck is something we refer to v often without thinking it through.

Maybe Brent, but we've had some bringing dictionary definitions to the table to ‘prove' it doesn't ‘really' exist (as if any of us are festooned in rabbit feet, out scanning for 4 leaf clovers, or wearing blindfolds in case we spot a lone magpie every match day) and others seem to see it as a word not to be used even when giving a characterisation of a specific piece of play.

Regarding the talk of what kit we will wear on Monday, since Chelsea play in blue shorts we shall be unable to play in the amber shirts unless we switch shorts colour. Like most, I don't like the "mint green" kit very much.

Si, sorry but the fantasy of "luck" sits alongside that of Father Christmas and many others. You have to believe in fantasy to believe in it. The main problem with it is that it also stops us thinking if we explain things away with an explanation that it was luck.

This conversation is taking me back to my school days, and the laugh I used to get out of one of my mates, when I used to act soft, and get him to start describing the imaginary line between Bootle and Kirkdale.

“If it's an imaginary line, it can't be real” used to get him every time, and also give me hours of laughter, with the lunatic trying to explain to me that it wasn't really an imaginary line!

Brent (70),

“Me and my mouth” – how many bleedin' times have I warned you about that, it's a very unlucky habit you've got, and you've made me swear on a Sunday morning, just as I'm getting ready to go to mass.

I'll have to review the situation about sharing a pint with you at Goodison, will you never learn!!

West Brom v Newcastle is a huge game. You feel it is now or never for West Brom and with all the rumoured discontent at Newcastle, they really could get seriously dragged into this.

Hope so Danny, I'd take Fulham over Newcastle any day if I could choose who stayed up.

Dave #81, that pint is still on after the next game we can attend. I know you said you don't bring money to the game as it's unlucky. No problem as I'll bring some folding money - just found my 20p piece with a hinge.

Brent (84), don't be broadcasting you're walking around with that amount of money on you!!

Martin #79 "the fantasy of "luck" sits alongside that of Father Christmas and many others."

I have this image of you as a two-year old on xmas day insisting to your parents that your presents were NOT from Father Xmas.

Brent could we have a “that Newcastle goalie looks the business “quote please.

Jeff, given that we want to see N'Castle defeated, and given my ability to read a goalkeeper's ability (!!) - "that N'Castle keeper looks the biz".

Me too Jeff. I missed my day out at the Cottage this season so would nice to get the opportunity to do so next season.

Poor in quality in the final 3rd from both as you'd expect.

Most entertaining aspect for me so far was the commentator in the first half: "the ball is going to need treatment at half time"!!

It's like Jurassic Park with those two managers.

Luck exists if you think it does. It's a bit like ‘pointing the bone'

If you'll pardon the expression!

The two of you seem a bit shy as you get close to the bar! I thought our goalie had short arms and long pockets?

Great chance for Maja there!

Which rs player has just gone down easily in the penalty area after only 2 minutes of play?

Was it Becker Brent? 😁.

Tbf he is their keeper!

Incidentally what do you think of him😉

Let's hope the worst home record in the entire English football league ladder in 2021 can be maintained today!

Lookman on fire!

Jeff, Becker looks really great!!!

They really should be showing that live table more often.

Liverpool looking so fragile at the back.

Glad “Trent” is not playing!!

How tall are Fulham's centre backs?!

Jeff, you must have been reading my mind, as was just about to post has “Trent” been dropped? Carra and Jermain Jenas must be heartbroken.

FFS Lookman maybe should have scored there.

'Carra' Rob??
Spit or Carragher if you please, sir! 😜

If you got points for playing good football, then Fulham would be out of sight in this game. But it's all about scoring goals, even if Fulham playing Liverpool off the park gives me hope for tomorrow night.

Sorry Jeff, don't know what happened there? 😬😬

Bet that got the red wetness going...

Liverpool 6s and 7s at the back there.

They don't have the pressing intensity of the past few seasons.

Fulham playing well.

Get in, Fulham!!!!

Fulham goal!

Yeeeeeeesssss. Get in!

Klopp a busted flush - these are shite!

Yep, yep, yep – suck it, Liverpool.

What a pity Becker couldn't get to it, Jeff!

And Mo Salah sums up Liverpool in that who 5 minute sequence of play.

And they only show the bottom live table...hmmm.

Excellent goalie punditry there Brent, once again!

Should we wear black armbands tomorrow as a mark of respect for deceased neighbours?

Jay, I'm glad you're here. What is it with Brazilian families naming their kids? The RS goalie is called Allison and he has a brother called Muriel. What's that all about?

No Jay. They're only doing this to make our win look insignificant. That or they're just unlucky.

They've got a sister called Boris, Rob 😁

Fulham turning up at Anfield today:

Link

Great play by Fulham, particularly Lookman and Reed, little red headed midfielder. The two of them outstanding for Fulham backed up by players all over the field.

Why was there no VAR when Tête was booked? Looked like it was a clean tackle in winning the ball.

No team are showing any fear whatsoever when facing Liverpool now. In the past, plenty of teams were beat before they went on the pitch.

Keep it up Fulham, but it won't be a shock if you win, not these days !!

I'm a bit worried as to who Jay is married too, Jeff?

I can't see Becker conceding another, he's class.

Last year against Man Utd, there were 3 Brazilian players on The pitch, Allan, Bernard and Fred!

What happened to Jairzinho, Rivellino and Socrates?

Has to be said, congrats to Rangers. You can call it an easy league but they have conceded just 9 goals in 32 games and still in the Europa League. Gerrard was doing well with the Liverpool academy but he's certainly taken his chance. No doubt he will be returning as manager in the future to you know where.

I know, Chris, they sound like a dominoes team!

Pat Nevin says Fulham are winning because they are playing a Liverpool not the Liverpool.

Jeff,

Should that be 'dominhos'?

Poor comment that from Nevin.

Micah Richards not remembering Champions falling from grace in this fashion. Firstly premature, secondly United under Moyes?

I also remember our 87-88 defence of the title being tepid at best. Yes, we finished 4th, but at a time when even if we had have not been banned from Europe, it was today's equivalent of finishing 7th??

Haha banners out now, gobshites

Airplane banner. Feel sick.

Neil, you can spot a keeper as well as I can!

Big Elvis Costello and Tom Waits fans, Rob..?

Alison

Muriel

Seriously, Brazilians are inclined to name their children after famous figures from the sporting world, music or cinema. They tend to 'bastardize' the names by mispelling them phonetically to the Portuguese languane, rather than literally.

There is a nice little article on the subject here and how Brazilian child naming has changed down the ages.

Brazilian Child Naming

And another comic read from the Guardian:

Weird Brazilian Names

It's a fun topic!

Unity is Strength. Come on you reds. YNWA!

Fucking Bellends!

Rob: 'I'm a bit worried as to who Jay is married too Jeff'

Cracker, Rob!

I will NOT be sharing this conversation with the missus!

Jay, is it Roy from Wizard?

Come on, Jay, spill the beans... is it Tom, Dick or Harry? 😀😀😀

I've been telling anyone who will listen, that unity is strength, even had Michael K, trying to put me in my place for my obvious kopite behavior the other week!

Rich praise indeed, Brent, I am flattered.

I'd say that young kid, Reid, is playing a bit like his manager used to play I also thought he had a very good game at Goodison the other week.

Knitting a lot together for them, Tony. Always an outlet for the defence as a short pass option. Noticed he allows defenders to come out and will sit for them.

Tony and Danny, there will be a few teams sniffing around Reid in the summer. Particularly so if Fulham go down.

I think Reid was a big part of the promotion team last season which Parker basically replaced with new signings, but he's got back in and stayed there; you can see why.

Carragher will be spitting his head off, cos here comes Trent.

Jenas will be creaming himself now, Jeff.

If Fulham stay up and make a couple of sensible signings in the summer, they could be decent side next season.

I have to say selling Lookman and buying Iwobi doesn't look the greatest move.

The positioning sense of Reid is really impressive. Intelligent footballer.

And £10 mill more Graham.

I think there must be something wrong with Lookman's attitude, Graham. Been several managers now and his follow-on stint at Leipzig was plagued with similar questions. The ability is there, we can see that.

Everton replace Everton at Anfield. Robinson for Lookman.

Graham and Jeff, too many ToffeeWeb managers were saying (just like Kean), he's not good enough for Everton, he's had his chance (like Kean from the bench). Both still would be very useful additions to the squad, IMO.

Definitely Joe, Lookman is a far better player than Iwobi, and Kean I believe would offer more off the bench than King or Bernard etc.

Danny, he always looks a bit sulky to me although looks can be deceptive. It would help explain his struggles to hold down a regular place anywhere. Perhaps Scott Parker has identified the best way of managing him as he seems to be growing into a very good player at the moment.

The best way to manage Lookman is probably to play him, not 1 in every 3 to 4 games. It may be that his best option is to carry on playing for teams like Fulham, not the so-called Top 4 or 6 etc.

I bet Slippy is looking to see how long Klopp's contract is for.

Great defending ny Andersen.

Hopefully it is just a youth thing. My suspicion (and it's pure reading between the lines, no knowledge), is maybe he had too much expectation of starting regularly at a young age, where managers thought different. Possibly could have taken a leaf out of someone like Tom Davies's book.

Lookman's football IQ is dwarfed by his insatiable inflated ego. You can see the chemistry he builds with the front line as each ball goes into the side netting.

The Imperial impotence of the Reds has shone thru here. Klopp has the look of someone who knows they've been found out.

Should be red that for Keita, forearm smash it was.

The last-minute face-saving penalties have certainly dried up lately.

I suppose 43 points will be enough to keep the RS up..

Keita

6 times in a row
6 times in a row
You've lost at Anfield
6 times in a row!!

Another loss! How sad!

Back to the time debate. Waited for that throw to be taken in the 96th minute of 90 + 4. I'm only surprised he didn't allow the corner to be taken.

A new meaning to holding up 6 fingers now.

#Klopp Out!... sorry, meant Klopp In!

My wife said "Why are you crying?"

I said, "They are tears of joy and laughter!"

Can't wait for Klippity Klopp's comments...

6 of the best

Can't wait for the after-match phone-ins!!!
Or should that be moan-ins?
6 home defeats on a row for the RS.
These are wonderful times for the Blues - especially if we can take full advantage.

5 weeks to their next game at Mordor now.

Let's talk about six, baby!

And still the worst home record in the entire English football league ladder goes on! 😅😅😅

So happy for Fulham. I like to see them do well, as it's the "local" team here in Jacksonville with Khan living here and owning both Fulham and the Jags.

I really hope Fulham, with two former Blues, escape the drop and someone like Newcastle go down. Newcastle deserve it - poor football, awful owner.

Wonderful.

Kick them while they are down....Hard.

Villa next up at Mordor. They will really fancy their chances of another seven!

So. Now we hope Man City do a job on Man Utd and Palace get something at Tottenham later.

Then we are really set up for tomorrow. It shouldn't change the approach and we go to win, but that result and hopefully favourable ones later certainly take the pressure off.

Money well spent on the airplane with banner

Let's start a book on the excuses. Pitch too green?

Mike # 173. Early reports of suicides in Peterborough.

Don't blame it on the sunshine,
Don't blame it on the moonlight,
Don't blame it on the good times,
Blame it on Pickford!!!

I didn't hear any mention of the Pickford assault on Virgil van Dijk today. Did I miss something?

I shouldn't laugh, but I just can't stop! 6 of the best...

Just logging in to laugh at the shite. Ha! Hahahahaaahahaahaaaaha! Ha ha haa ha! Ha! Ha.

That's enough of that. Who gives a toss for them anyway? Onwards and upwards, Blues.

The background of red seats and banners make it very difficult to pick out a team mate in a red shirt.

I still think they're good enough to stay up...

Maybe that plane was there to deliver the "parachute payment" for relegated sides.

I agree Brent, Fulham are on a roll now!

What did the plane say?

Herr Klopp will walk soon...

Nick, I think it was a YNWA banner

Myself at 176......................that should read the worst home record in 2021.

Nick, you're so shit it's unbelievable!

Sunderland have the record of 10 (ten) straight home defeats. I think they can do it. Go Again! We are all behind you.

It's like a Wild West saloon in RAWK just now.

Neil 192. No need for the rudeness, people talking about planes going over, so just asking what the banner is saying.

I could have got that wrong. Not about me but about Liverpool. My mistake. Sorry.

A plane circled above Anfield during the game towing a banner which read: "Unity in Strength - Let's Go Reds YNWA'.

Nick, I take it you're joking with your comment. Neil meant the banner referred to the team, not you.

Feels as good as an Everton win. Yeehah!

So it brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "Six times",,,,,,,,

Nick, no need, I burst out laughing at post 199, thought you were being sarcastic. A double whammy as it were!

'I still think they're good enough to stay up.'

Dunno about that, Brent.

On current form the Reds have only taken 3 points from their last six games, equal with Sheff Utd and Leeds. Even the likes of West Brom, Brighton, Newcastle, Burnley and bombing Southampton have taken more points.

Or... were you talking about Fulham..? ;-)

I've realised my stupid error. The way it was written looks like it was meant to me. Sorry again. Had an idiot moment there.

Martin (79),

Good to see you are back to your unfathomable best! Nobody on here believes in luck like you are talking about it! It's just an expression to sum up when, on the balance of probabilities, something less likely has happened. That's all, no mysterious benefactor or malefactor.

Please have the grace to admit that people have the ability to look at a scenario and weigh up the probabilities and decide whether the outcome was largely unexpected (good or bad) without the need to resort to a supercomputer to precisely calculate all the variables.

National Day of mourning announced in Norway.

So, if Spurs and Villa (hopefully not against us) win just one of their 2 games in hand, Liverpool will drop down to 9th!

Not sure whether today means our loss to Fulham wasn't too bad or our win at Anfield wasn't all that great...

Either way, I'm pissing myself laughing!!!

He denied speculation that he was tired of the role, saying, "It's not that I'm tired, I've not had contact with another club but don't plan to take a sabbatical"

Klopp in April 2015 Thomas after a season that saw Dortmund near the bottom of the Bundesliga prior to the Christmas break. In the "Ruckrunde", they clawed themselves back up to 7th.

Klopp joined Liverpool in 2015.

The signs are certainly there. Left Mainz after getting relegated and failing to bring them back up despite earlier relative success.

A good time manager in my opinion. When things go wrong, not one to hang around.

Neil, #210. If Spurs only draw later on, then Liverpool drop to 8th. 😃😃

Nick #207, as I posted above, no apology necessary. I could have made my post a bit clearer.

Rob #183,
I really hope Elaine from Peterborough phones in. That would be the icing on the cake. And it's all our fault – which is the cherry on top. Can't wait for 606!!!
And just hope we get something tomorrow night.

Rob, even better – yes, I didn't look at their Goal Difference – only Villa's for some reason.

If luck is true, hopefully Lady Luck has decided to even herself out and the shite have circa 100 years of it left and their recent bad luck is just the tip of the iceberg.

Mike, it's a nap she'll be like a wailing banshee as she blames Pickford.

Try this, Martin:

Every time someone writes 'lucky', simply substitute the word ‘unlikely'. Or are you then going to climb on your trusty Falabella to rail against those who believe something can be likely or unlikely?

Penalty to Man Utd after 30 seconds.

Good start for Man Utd.

Falabella! New word of the day!

Thank you, Si!

That's why football is awful nowadays for me. Five blue shirts around one red one who is driving across the box going nowhere quickly, and it's a penalty.

Adds a new dimension to the context of the Sky Super 6!
Let's hope that Everton turn up, with the right attitude and do a job on Chelsea.

Never mind that Rob, if Tottenham only draw against Palace, Everton can pull 6 points clear of them and Liverpool tomorrow, with a game in hand on the latter.

Wouldn't it be just peachy if we took their place in the Champions League spots. I like to think that a good section of them wouldn't begrudge our moment in the sun after so long in the doldrums. They realise it's our turn, time for them for a bit of midtable shenanigans for a few years. Once you've got you're head around it, it's not that bad.

Sorry, Michael, but his lunatic application of ‘logic' is getting to me.

What a great save by Areola from Jota's volley to stop RS equalising, loved seeing Salah robbed on the edge of his own area and what a great finish fin Lemina's, except “Jurgen Out” phone calls aplenty on Talksport, later.

That's why I call Martin, “the duke” Si. Watch Midnight Run, it might make you learn to appreciate “our Martin” obviously depending on your mood though mate!

Is it sacrilegious to curse Jesus?

Could probably do with a United win here really, City need to be brought down a peg or two before the cup tie, otherwise the winning juggernaut will be rolling our way in a couple of weeks, they need to start a wobble, and soon!

Tony, Midnight Run is my favourite all-time film.

Who does Falabella play for?

I'll have to check that out Tony. Don't think I've ever seen it.

In another life!

Jeff, it's one of those debatable things. I'd tend to worry about being on the receiving end of a backlash!
Smug and complacent would do me. Plus I think City are out of reach but United could still be overhauled if we really get our act together.

Si@208, Your definition of luck makes it 100% subjective and hence without any meaning?

What you're trying to say now is that luck is the probability of the outcome of the event (high or low) but that's not what luck is. Luck is something that supposedly influences the outcome and can be enhanced by a rabbit's foot, 4 leaf clover or putting socks on before shorts.

The odds against Liverpool losing 6 home games on the trot are massive and yet no way bad luck. It was all down to needles into my Klipperty doll and incantations over my anti-Liverpool horseshoe.

Steve Bruce favourite be the next Premier League manager to get the sack. Guess who's second favourite?

Brent,

My RS Mate just texted saying Klopp needs to go, LMAO!

Watching Flatnose Curry get the sack (Butch Cassidy reference there) will be fun.

Brent, I don't believe Smiley will be sacked, but he might just take a hike on his own.

I don't see Klopp leaving before the summer and I'm not sure where they'd even go for a replacement.

The owners don't seem to be to keen to spend big on the team and no Champions League football may mean selling to balance the books.

Kieran, I'm sure we all hope he stays!

I managed to climb on my trusty Falabella last night – wonderful thing viagra almost as good as another RS defeat. Almost.

Si, I just think if the wins keep coming, they'll be more determined to keep the run going to some world record or another, they're up for a quadruple this season so as the season wears on and that becomes more obtainable then I pity anyone in their way!

A Manchester top 2 still leaves 3rd & 4th open to us. As you say, debatable point... but just my take on it.

Si, tell you what, how about we settle for a draw today!

Slippy G is one obvious name, depends if they are willing to take a punt should Klippety go anywhere.

They need to get back on the tonic and sign a few more asthmatics. Allegedly.

Remember when the council gave their backing to Bramley-Moore Dock and they were crowing that we couldn't even beat Fulham at home?

Slippy is favourite as next rs manager - 13/8.

Klopp won't be sacked, he would walk if he goes.

Mainz; takes a low level club to the Bundesliga, enjoys relative success, gets relegated and fails to bring them up. Under no pressure but walks when not happy.

Dortmund; takes big German giant and challenges Bayern's monopoly for several seasons, enjoying great success. Seems to lose interest in last season which rubs off on team. Finishes 7th and walks.

History repeating itself? He's good when things are going well or he's interested. I suspect he's achieved what he wanted and has his eye elsewhere. There have been rumours of the Germany job.

Who would they replace him with? The answer is obvious. Stevie-Gee Lar has just passed his apprenticeship and won his first title. The fact it was the Highland League won't get in the way of emotion and sentiment with that lot. Dalglish (2nd and 3rd comings) all over again.

Gerrard as next manager, Danny?

Please let that happen.

Very tough afternoon for Jim Beglin commentating on City v Utd - two teams he seems to dislike as much as he dislikes us.

I think there would be way too much pressure on Gerrard if he took that job. We may not like it but he's a winner. It would be just typical if Klopp wins the Champions League again this year.

Martin, you accept probability is a thing, don't you? When normal people say something is lucky or unlucky ,it is just a one-word summing up of their on-the-fly assessment of the balance of probability. That's all, no mumbo jumbo, supernatural force or whatever involved.

What Klopp might say in his desperate attempt to talk down his teams spectacular slump in form is immaterial to how I use the words ‘lucky' or ‘unlucky'. You can't put a blanket ban on people summing up a very time-limited set of circumstances on the balance of probabilities with one word if they wish to just because other people try to apply the same word to much more complex circumstances over greater periods of time.

I remember reading in the Daily Telegraph that Klopp's big problem is that he has a beautiful winning formula but no Plan B for when things go tits up. Carlo has and uses Plan Bs all of the time.

How the RS fans go now will define them forever and they are going crumbling. I worked on a job in Gloucester last year with another engineer who was an exiled kopite who still went up for the game and who was what I remembered the Liverpool fans being when they came up, mainly good guys.

He hated most Liverpool fans and contemptuously dismissed them as daytrippers. I like Klopp btw, he is a character and an eccentric.

Si, sorry that I can't discuss my points with you further as I know that we could do in a friendly manner. It has no interest to the Toffee Ummah and I don't want to piss people off any more than I do already.

Best Wishes

How can you piss people off Martin, when you come out with classics like that mate!

Well, this not going the way we'd have preferred. Top 3 being consolidated this weekend?

Can only take care of our own results I guess.

Martin, you don't piss us off. We're lucky to have you.

Never pissed me off, Martin. Had some good discussion on here with you whether in agreement or not.

Toffee Ummah?

‘What you're trying to say now is that luck is the probability of the outcome of the event (high or low)...'

What do you mean ‘now'? When did I ever say anything different? That's been the whole point, that has so far eluded you, from the start of this on the other thread.

You can try to be the ‘word police' if you want, Martin, and tell people they can only use a word according to your single definition or you can accept and recognise that there are in fact multiple definitions of lucky - 1: having good luck. 2: happening by chance: fortuitous. 3: producing or resulting in good by chance: favorable. 4: seeming to bring good luck a lucky rabbit's foot. Can you tell me you have a problem with definition 2 or 3, or that you don't understand the meaning of the word ‘seeming' in definition 4?

An argument on the existence (or not) of luck.

Only on ToffeeWeb.🤣🤣🤣

In Graham's favourite film, Si, the main man just grinds everyone down. Don't fall for it, mate, the duke sends many a sane man over the edge!

Brian, does that mean we're lucky to have it?

I've been trying to find the title to a Dylan song with the lyrics about inheriting a million pound, and being born lucky. Perhaps Chris W, might be able to help me out!

Mike #264,

Who knows mate, who knows?

Tony, you thinking maybe of "Richard Cory" by Simon and Garfunkel?

Well, much as I hate to see Man Utd succeed (and I REALLY hate it), they've shown us the template to keep City out, and their defense is no more talented than ours. This is a plan we can execute if properly prepared.

Brian (262) except the argument is imaginary. No-one on here (that I've ever seen) has ever tried to argue that luck as a ‘force' actually exists. It's an argument that one person in particular is trying to foist on others.
I'd say Man Utd were ‘lucky' that last opportunity wasn't converted but it was Sterling who missed the sitter!

Tony,

Claustrophobia? You are going to suffer from fistophobia!

Si if someone is trying to foist something on others and they oppose it I believe that's an argument.
That's me being pedantic, but having far too much time on my hands, just as those lucky enough to be involved in the "luck" argument must have, I'm just counting my lucky stars I'm not involved. I think.

One last point. If someone is trying to foist something on others in, shall we say, an unreasonable manner, what ever happened to being able to tell 'em to fuck right off, purely from a scientific point of view of course.

Some results have gone our way this weekend. I still think 4th is a long shot. We have some very tricky matches coming up.

The Premier League has produced some shocks this season though. Maybe we can provide another tomorrow night. I still think we are in a battle with West Ham, Spurs, Villa, Liverpool & Arsenal for a Europa League spot.

If Klopp gets sacked, then football really has lost its mind.

It's a long time since I've watched it Graham, but I'm constantly reminded of it on these pages though, thanks to Martin, who likes Klopp because he's eccentric!😂

Paul #273.

And we've lost the source of some wonderfully funny moments too!

Brian, the real argument is about what people mean when they use the word lucky, but the imaginary one was that there were ever two opposing views on the existence of luck as a force.

As for it being a good use of time? It's definitely not but I got involved early on when Rob Halligan objected to the use of the word for the result of the West Brom game. I countered that we could be considered ‘lucky' that Diagne failed to stay onside when our defence inexplicably dog-legged itself. I found out 24 hours later that the ‘debate' really spiralled after that.

Having people unfavourably and inaccurately define what I've written (Martin wasn't the only one but he has persisted) is a bit of a trigger I'm afraid.

Thank you for your understanding comments gents, much appreciated.

Tony

I can literally mouth the words all the way through I've seen it so many times. Martin does have a touch of Jonathan Mardukas about him.

Thanks for the explanation Si. I must admit to being somwhat less than serious though mate, as is my wont.

The Dylan song you're thinking of is Idiot Wind, Tony.

‘What ever happened to being able to tell 'em to fuck right off, purely from a scientific point of view of course?'

Could save a lot of global computing power but wouldn't the posts get a bit ‘same-y'?

I used to be like that with Godfather I and II, Graham, and thank,s Sam, I've been wracking my brains all day, remember it being on an album I had with the Jack of Hearts, but I'd forget the title, so nice one, mate!

Sam@280,

What an amazingly good song and CD. I won the war after losing all the battles. If I could just say that, in the end, I agree with you all about Klopp, I love him and he is far too good for that cesspit of a club and fans.

I'm so happy with Carlo though and the way things are going, it's just so Everton. To see it come to fruition will be a lifetime gift for me as I enter my 70s. Me and my brother and all of our kids are exiled Evertonians in Derby, Leeds, Horsham and Brighton. All part of the Holy Toffee Ummah.

In recognition of Liverpool's home record, when I buy 6 beers in the liqueur store, I get a six-pack... in the future, I think I will ask for an Anfield pack.

Micah Richards getting paid a lot of money to behave like a playground supporter. Roy Keane had him in his pocket.

Ha ha fuck you Liverpool!!!

Where is the logic in these results? Were United Lucky or what?

Martin, of course not, because the chances of United winning, although unlikely, were not unprobable.

Forgive me. Please, please forgive me but this one thing is getting to me. I won't do the disclaimer but literacy around statistics is a hangup if mine.

The reason why we would not want to equate probability and luck is the difference between risk and uncertainty. You can estimate risk whereas uncertainty cannot be modeled or else you'd take the bits that could be and load them into your estimate. Luck is like uncertainty.

Let's see how this one goes but I now see a top 8 shaping up. I said earlier and deep down believe the top 3 is sorting itself out now. But either way the result goes tomorrow, Everton or Chelsea could upset that one.

Man Utd and Leicester City on 54 & 53 points respectively with 28 played. We win tomorrow, we're on 49 with a game in hand (Villa). Win that, in theory (depends on timing of fixture obviously), we are on 52, same games played.

All to play for. Believe.

Congratulations to Stevie G by the way. Incredible performance after Ranger's fall from grace. They play nothing? He did better than Leicester in Europe.

Mike @ 268.

'United have shown us the template to keep City out, and their defense is no more talented than ours. This is a plan we can execute if properly prepared.'

I was thinking the self same thing as the game panned out. United were excellent. The two fullbacks always tight to and on the heels of Sterling and Mahrez.

Defenders and midfielders with the courage and ability to carry the ball forward. Fast and skilful forwards running at and beyond the City defence.

We have players who can do likewise.

It also helped that de Bruyne was as poor as I've ever seen him.

Dale #290.

Or chance, which I suppose is the equivalent of uncertainty.

Just simply replace the word luck with chance and we're sorted!

Dale, but they are just terms for things on the same spectrum aren't they? Risk is just used for well known and fairly easily assessable variables, whereas your uncertainty comes from less well understood / quantifiable variables.

I don't see why in normal discourse you can't use a colloquialism like ‘lucky' to sum up your take on the ‘probabilities' of a given situation.

Jay, we don't have a right full-back though, do we?

Si#281.
That actually made me laugh out loud. 👍

LLLLLLLFC

I've kind of got used to the ‘top-knot' now, but Gareth Bale's still looks ridiculous!

Can't someone have a word?

I honestly thought of you when I heard those fantastic lyrics Martin, mate. I won the war after losing all the battles!

I've just listened to that Richard Cory, Mike. Good song, but a very sad ending, making me realise how much we should all try and enjoy our lives. Something Everton can hopefully help us with tomorrow night!

Jay #293,

You're right, but I was actually speaking more of the plan (and flawless execution of it) involving the centre-backs and midfielders. Maguire and Lindelof were lying unusually deep so as not to allow City to get around behind them, but then stepped up aggressively to cut off the passing lanes whenever City had the ball around the top of the box. McTominay, Fred and Bruno would squeeze at the same time. So every time Sterling or Gundogan would cut to the middle, they'd be surrounded.

It could be a stretch to count on Holgate to do the same job on Sterling that Wan-Bissaka did, but we have the backline quickness overall to execute the same plan.

I would contest that we have attackers who can do what Daniel James and Rashford were able to do, to run at the City defenders with the ball and make them backpedal. Calvert-Lewin and Richarlison have pace but lack those skills -- neither beats defenders off the dribble -- and our James obviously lacks the pace. I would say our counters would originate off passes, not carrying the ball forward (which when we do it produces giveaways), and we won't generate as many chances as United. The midfield quality just isn't there.

Graham (289),

So where does that leave actual analysis of the performance? From the way the game played out, I'd say the result shouldn't be judged on the pre-game assessment of ‘unlikely'.

I've seen plenty of games where the result actually contradicted the balance of play, and therefore (I would say) the likelihood.

What a Benteke header to equalise.

Well, that makes it interesting.

Nice to see Bob creeping into ToffeeWeb again. For those not familiar with the two versions of ‘Blood On The Tracks” check out the ironical ‘Idiot Wind'. For the best ever live film of Dylan and the song see the 1976 version. Intensity in an unbelievable scale. To you all stay tangled upon blue!!

Spurs back in front.

3-1. Game over

Rob, I'm posting the good news. You're posting the bad news. Please keep away! In the nicest possible sense.

Bollocks - Kane as I speak. What was I saying about bearers of bad news.

And that, boys and girls, is why Harry Kane is Harry Kane.

Wow.

Apart from the Fulham result not a great day for us.

Just need to beat Chelsea, simple.

A draw with Chelsea will do then win our game in hand.

Been watching this debate with equal interest as much as confusion!

I was going to refrain, but here's my take for what it's worth!

Luck: something you can't predict. It happens and whilst sometimes you can make luck happen, but you can never guarantee or rely on it. It comes down to good fortune, the coin landing your side, or the planets aligning in your favour. If you get lucky you can gloat and claim you made your own luck. If you are unlucky, you bemoan the gods and kopite sympathising referees conspiring against you.

Probability: More predictable and likely to happen than luck because there is a bit more science behind it. Still no guarantees, but the likely outcome is a more certain punt if you fancy a trip to the bookies, or these days, login to your PaddyPower App.

Uncertainty: A bit like luck but on the negative side. Similarly we have no control over uncertainty because it is, well, uncertain. We don't truly know the outcome no matter how positive or negative we are on the subject, so it creates anxiety and we hope we can just get lucky.

Risk: Everything is a gamble. There is inherent risk in everything we do. We accept risk, tolerate it or mitigate it but can never eradicate it. We have more control over the level of risk than we do over the amount of luck we receive (or don't), than probability (no guarantee) or uncertainty (by its nature unpredictable).

One's appetite for risk depends on how lucky we feel, how we weigh up probability (or lack of) and uncertainty. The equation and estimate of the collective will determine whether we are adventurous or cautious.

Either way, sometimes you are lucky, others unlucky!!!

Caveat; those are the ramblings of Danny. No research or "Googling" done.

Right, brain hurts so back to the football. Tottenham game not gone our way so I guess we need to beat them 5-4 again!

Can someone please explain (Mike Gaynes maybe), what is the point of a linesman not flagging immediately for a clear offside? Zaha received a pass just now and every man and his dog could see Zaha was clearly offside, so why play on to see what happens when we all know the flag will eventually go up?

A definite top 8 starting to shape up now.

To my earlier point, it is possible that we can gatecrash what looks like 2nd and 3rd (Man Utd, Leicester City), but that depends on tomorrow and winning the game in hand against Aston Villa.

But, it looks increasingly like we're in the group that will battle it out for the positions between 4th and 8th. Great position to be in as much of our destiny is in our own hands.

I don't like that, Rob. I get the not flagging too early but leaving it as late as they are now is going to result in someone getting unnecessarily hurt as play should have been stopped.

It's crazy, Danny. If it's a really close offside and the linesman doesn't flag, I can understand it, but when it's clearly offside just flag straight away. If a linesman misses an offside and the attacking team score, it will be picked up by VAR anyway.

Tony A,

I've been texted that Doucouré has broken a bone in his foot.
Did you say earlier in the week you had heard that?

Rob #314,

I'm guessing if they flag early, get it wrong and deny a definite goal scoring opportunity... there's no way to rectify it. If they let it play out... it's sorry but.

Thomas, when you say earlier in the week, do you mean before Thursday, or did he break a bone in his foot in the West Brom game?

Brendan, that's probably the reason but, when a player is at least 2 or 3 yards offside, what's the point in playing on? Just flag offside immediately.

Trying to remember, Rob.

Sure Tony posted he had heard he was injured. Text I got said he did it in training.

Hopefully it's just a rumour.

6-8 weeks out for Doucouré. Stress fracture. Big loss.

I hope it's nonsense but Twitter is saying that Doucoure will miss the test of the season with a broken metatarsal.

Rob #321,

They can't/don't allow discretion like that. Okay at 2 or 3 yards but when it gets down to inches?

Depending which Premiership?

Watching the film of Rangers winning their previous title 10 years ago (2010-11) and there was captain Davie Weir and manager Walter Smith. Memories.

Re: the discussion on 'luck'.

Anyone remember the tragic 2016 air crash of the Brazilian football team, Chapecoense, as they were approaching their desination in Colombia to play the Copa Sudamericana Final (the Europa League equivalent)?

There were only 6 survivors. 3 Players, a journalist, a flight attendant and an aircraft maintenance techician. The technician, a Bolivian by the name of Erwin Tumiri, was this week travelling to work in his home country by bus when it went off the road and plunged 150 metres into a gorge.

21 people died. 30 injured, some seriously. Erwin walked away with an injured knee.

Chapecoense Plane Crash Survivor Survives Again

Dunno where this one sits in the spectrum on the discussion on luck, the law of probability, risk calculation, Newtonian physics, deterministic chaos, non-linear events, faith and the existence of God...

If it were me, I fancy I'd be shaking my fist at the big fellah in the sky, telling him to pick on some other poor fooker next time!

Luck; The 'Teela Brown' Theory... luck can be bred in humans like stamina or speed in race horses.

Over a large scale, say in a city of 1 million, Teela Brown can always find her car keys. One on One, you and her walking down the street, the falling piano... or whatever, will – always, without fail, land on you.

We already know that the rs got (this is now – had) all the luck and we got none. Our luck, up to now is improving... theirs is collapsing.

Coincidence, swings and roundabouts, their 50-year deal (as shown by their FA Cup semi-final win and our away goals loss in Greece) with the devil has not been rolled over?

I can see them putting a lot of pressure on our 14th place 'Worst Post Championship League Placing' position.

Clarke's 3rd Law states; “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Is luck just a further corollary of this?

How long it all lasts is anybody's guess, but I'm enjoying it now.

#Schadenfreude

If there is such a thing as luck, well please “Luck be a lady tonight”!

Watching Lookman yesterday just again highlights how Koeman's treatment of him ended with us losing a kid with a lot of potential. I know it was Silva who finally let him go but I think the damage had already been done.

When I think, if James isn't fit, our only options out wide are Iwobi or Bernard and neither has much impact on games. Yesterday, Lookman's pace caused Liverpool all sorts of problems, still doesn't score as yet the goals he should but I think, once he adds goals to his game, he will be exactly what we need out wide.

Yes, I know people will say Silva gave him opportunities, and yes, at times his body language wasn't great, but I still think we will regret letting him leave.

Sorry Brian, but I'm not having that about Lookman and pinning it all on Koeman.

Koeman picked him for his scoring debut v Man City and gave him a run in the side, as young as he was. He wasn't up to it.

Lookman had less than a year under Koeman before the Dutchman was sacked. He wasn't trusted or selected by the likes of Unsworth and Allardyce (who let him out on loan within weeks of joining the club).

Both Brands and Silva talked Lookman up as 'the future' of Everton. When he was selected he flickered rather than shone. He evidently didn't like the grubby side of the game, but produced very little to benefit the team, so wasn't trusted with a regular starting berth.

Transferred back to his loan team mirrored his time at Everton. He barely featured. Yes, he is playing well at Fulham now. Maybe the penny has dropped.

But IMO his 'failure' at Everton had much more to do with the player himself than solely Koeman as you claim.

I heard that about Doucoure on Saturday, late in the afternoon Thomas, and I've heard it a few times since.

Jay@327: We would say he was unlucky to be involved in these events, but lucky to survive both given that he was involved. But saying that is simply a shorthand for saying that he was involved in both and survived, and so is really a circular statement in itself, but then the circular nature is removed by noting the rarity of anyone being involved like that. Then, the overall statement is simply another way of saying that experiences like that don't happen very often, which of course is precisely why you're recounting it here. So ultimately referring to luck conveys no additional info or insight beyond all that. It's simply a shorthand to convey rarity, and we already know such experiences are rare. That's my take on it anyway.

I don't disagree with you Stan.

I thought, given the 'conversation' related to luck across a couple of threads in recent days, Erwin Tumiri's story can be variously interpreted depending on individual perspective.

The man himself, having survived two extreme near-death experiences, expresses how he 'feels blessed by God'. My tongue in cheek final paragraph demonstrates a different perspective: 'Oi, Big Yin! I get it! Now go and pick on someone else!'

I know some right unlucky fuckers.
Nothing goes right for them sadly.
I also know some really lucky people, everything they touch works out right.

Not sure what science or the theory of this or that contributes to that.

Lookman had chances at Everton, limited at times to cameo appearances but didn't give the impression he wanted to succeed, never going all out to grasp those chances, went to Germany on loan, did reasonably well, was happy to go back there permanently, but never played well enough to stake a place in the team. He was signed by Fulham and now looks like he could go on and do really well in the game, is he happy and contented now he is back in own environment, he is a Cockney boy after all ?

Thomas@335: It's conservation of luck. The total amount of luck in the universe is a constant, so for every person who's fucked around by the hand of providence, there'll be another blessed by this law of physics.

Reading the back pages today, the rs media machine seems to be working overtime as usual ie they win a game and they are back to take over the world!!

It's repugnant, but at the same time impressive, the amount of coverage they are given. Their former players seem to be guaranteed media positions once they retire, and the amount of journos they have in their back pocket is scary.

Colin - they asked for the game to be played away from Mordor as RB Leipzig would probably have won 3-0 and knocked them out.

Even as we write there are a team of engineers examining the structure of their new stand and brown envelopes are being exchanged to say the ground is unfit and therefore all their home games need to be played elsewhere. Seems the only way to stop their slide down the division.

There was a clip on my twitter yesterday and I have never seen it before it was Elton Welsby interviewing Harry Catterick soon after the death of Bill Shankley. Harry told this story of bumping into Shankley outside Evertons training ground. Harry said Bill asked me had I seen the new centre half he had just signed it was Ron Yeats, Harry said no its the boy from Dundee, yes said Bill and he is that big I could afford to play Arthur Askey in goal.

Harry went on to say how he would miss Bill as they used to talk when watching games from the stands, I think both had finished with the game.

Luck and the bus mechanic.

I see your Erwin Tumiri and I raise you Tsutomu Yamaguchi.

Tsutomu was finishing a 3 month business trip in Hiroshima on August 6th 1945. He watched as a US plane dropped two small parachutes. Then Little Boy exploded in the air and killed 140,000.

The next day he caught his train home. After a day to recover he went into work at Mitsubishi in Nagasaki. He was just getting a telling off from his boss for being crazy and that one bomb could not destroy a whole city when Fat Man exploded and killed 74,000.

Despite radiation burns from Hiroshima, Tsutomo lived to a few months short of his 94th birthday. He did die from stomach cancer - probably all that raw meat (check out the heros of Telemark death rate from eating raw meat).

Phil (341), just an aside to your story about Nagasaki, there was a Polish priest who founded and helped to build a monastery in Nagasaki, on the day the bomb exploded on Nagasaki and killed thousands and destroyed most of the place, the monastery was untouched.

The priest who founded the monastery was later to become a Saint, Maximilian Maria Kolbe, who died in Auschwitz in 1941, after pleading with the German in charge there to let him swap with another Polish prisoner and face the firing squad instead, this happened and the prisoner who walked away from the firing squad lived to be ninety two.

That story is just a little interlude in this thread, hope nobody minds.

To lighten the mood slightly...

Q: What's the difference between Liverpool FC at Anfield in 2021 and a triangle?
A: The triangle has three points.

Dave - I have the film of Kolbe - very powerful and emotional - you can get it on Amazon.

Larry
Haven't they also scored more home goals in Budapest??!!

George (344), George is your film in English, is it possible to get one in English?