Champions League Final

Can I just pass on my thoughts and prayers to the families of the 39, who on this Day in 1985, lost their lives, r.i.p

Is this game on Utube as well as BT.

Dave @2
Yes, it's on youtube just like the United game last Wednesday - the link should be on the Europa thread.

Barry (3), thanks for that Barry, I thought I read it somewhere that it was on Utube, I can get it on BT on my IPad but it will be better watching it enlarged on my TV. I'll be rooting for City but sometimes the red hot favourites, which I think City are, come unstuck, hope tonight isn't one of those occasions, although I'll be nice and calm no matter who wins.I wish Everton would give me a night like this to worry about!!

Well said Brian.

Pep must be very confident of retaining possession as he doesn't have a ball winning midfielder in his 11.

Even Money City ?

Looks a decent bet until you see they have to do it in the ninety. I think I will still have a go at that

Cmon City! Suck it Chelsea.

Darren, l can't bet a single game at evens, l'm too greedy. I've gone De Bruyne and a city win at 7s... but of course they have goal scorers all over the place.

Paddypower are giving away a free £5 bet builder bet.

Link to YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnO3QQY5Jwo

Two teams that won the lottery and you know what ? I'm made up for them.Hears looking forward to a good game.

I was half way through a letter of complaint to BT, on the biggest night of the year, not one redshite pundit anywhere. But then 'and now we join live Steve McNamanan and two other nomarks' and sanity was restored.

That pregame crap was DNA damagingly bad

I seen too many accas go down by one leg - generally the banker more often than not - to bother with them anymore. My Dad was the same, when his mates asked him why he'd only play singles he'd tell them if he had to wait to see four or five winners in a row to collect he'd see the girl on the window about twice a year.
As for betting on football, it might be the only thing I lose more money on than the ponies. So apologies to anyone who had the Abramovich team to lift the trophy, I had a sneaky tenner at 7/2. Doomed the ship, certainly.

Sticking my neck out, but I think Stones will fuck up tonight, it's in his DNA.

Stones has looked a little shaky a couple of times. Good game so far

Chelsea will win this, City all fur coat and no knickers.

If Chelsea see enough of the ball they can worry City's backline...If.

looks like Carlo's tactic of Hari Kari isn't the only way to play against City after all.

Brian post 1. Well said. And obviously to the club who lost out so much because of that disgraceful day ! I'm a traditionalist I thought at last one teams fans had to at least risk a kid getting blinded by writing off a team coach and getting away with it completely.

Tuchel winning so far, stretching city defence but when city try to come forward chelsea set up in a 514. Weird but its working

Fun game so far.

Univision announcers much fun to listen to.

Anyone else more interested in the masked dancer on ITV?

Kevin, Carlo and tactics in the same sentence, wow!

Pep set up to blow Chelsea away early on... it doesn't seem to be working... has the youtu e coverage got mcmanamab on?

Yes Barry, masked dancer fans.

Deserved lead. Big mistake by Pep, wide open and stretched defensive line

What a ball from Mount some player him

Brian#1.
I owe you an apology Brian as I felt you must have got the date wrong as there's absolutely no mention of it in the Liverpool Echo.

I guess some things are remembered while some are forgotten.

There should be a masqued manager and we only get to see who gets us to 11th at the end of the season

If he played for us Jeff he'd have spent last season on loan at Huddersfield!!

Chelsea deserve to be ahead created more chances

Ian, 26 - alas yes.

Cmon City! As for masked singer, sorry guys Saturday night TV has been shite for decades, singing and dancing, no real music and I want proper Dr Who back!

Dale

The man with a dustbin on his head? Wtf was that all about. Carragher and Richards seem drunk too

Light Blues have been disappointing so far, Chelsea are creating many more chances and if Werner had his shooting boots on the game would be over already. Hoping City can do something as I can't stand the Chavs fans or club - plus it would put to bed the notion that City hasn't arrived yet, despite being the dominant force in England for a good few years.

Well well Chelsea with a deserved lead. DeBruyne is not on form. Is there a 2nd half Serge in City?

It's horrible watching this and seeing how far off the pace we are.

I wonder if Pep is looking at his bench and wishing Delph was available to change things in the 2nd half?

Tom @39
If you don't have a large number of quality players in your team you don't get to play quality football. That doesn't mean Everton couldn't have done better this season, but we have to be realistic and realise that the club has a lot of work to do to even make a dent in the gaps between us and the big boys.

Kieran, WTF indeed. I'm hoping that wasn't just a US thing. Rather embarrassed for anyone associated with that.

Chelsea looking to run, run, run some more.

City had a chance or two, also.

Fun game overall.

Yeah Tom, we desperately need European Football and a higher profile. Fuck this ''we don't want Europa League shit'
We need to be in Europe whatever way, finals and big atmospheres,

Cmon City Damnit! Do one Douchel!

Our Darren (Fletcher, not the other one) has come a long way to get this gig. He has the right voice for it.

Excellent from Chelsea so far, matching Man City and frustrating them big time. Tuchel knows they give chances away under pressure, even we could have scored 2 against them in our first half! A deserved lead. Makes for a good second half with City on the attack and Chelsea on the break. James playing well against Sterling , good to watch that battle.

Does Ngolo Kante ever give the ball away?

Looks as though Tuchel has got his tactics rite again against Pep. Stays like this it is Tuchel's 19 clean sheet I think.

De Bruyne, get a grip man, pull yourself together and get back out there, your the captain.

City's chance just gone with the Captain bottling it .

Reff taking no crap from the arm wavers over the ball to hand...seems to be of a better quality than Prem Reffs - not hard though

City are starting to play like us.

52, I wish

Pulicic 2-0

Or not!

Nearly right there, Jeff...

That's why I don't bet Will, ...nearly,

now Aguero comes on, hmmmm

De Bruyne Bottling it??

Good shots of fans freaking out there. Suspense is back in the CL final

In the modern game it's mostly midfield where games are won (Havertz, Kante, Pulisic, etc.). Correct me if I am wrong, but if James is an attacker we currently have no first choice internationals in our first choice line-up?

James#58.
Yeh James, some people say the stupidest things.

De Bruyne had no influence on the game, he got a knock after 75 minutes and went off, yes he has bottled it, it's a Champions league final FFS!

Brian, yeh. He was so clearly hurt.

Also, don't know who this referee is, but he's having an excellent game. Letting them play, while brooking no bullshit.

we may owe the city fans an apology. The abject nature of our performance last week may have led city to think they were better than they were. But a study of all of Everton's games should have made them realise they were nothing special,

Gary @ 60; Not just the modern game mate. Football always has been both won and lost in the midfield

Jeff you're talking shite. He was hit in the face hard enough for a black eye to develop within minutes. He was obviously groggy and unable to continue.

Yes clearly hurt, bruised eye!

Peter Drury on 54 minutes “City have been on the attack the whole game” six minutes later “city have only had one attack in the game” I think this tedious prick writes his script before the game even starts and just reads it regardless of the game

Got to be five or six mins extra here at least.

Jeff he couldn't even walk straight when he eventually went down the tunnel

7 minutes? From where

No last minute dramas please Chelsea

Degs @ 65 - think we still need right back and right wing bud, but watching this tonight has woken me up a bit that it's still the middle of the park where we need most work. It's why defenders still have no where to give it.

Gary; has been for years mate

Tuchel looks like Gordon Lee

Kante man of the match by a large margin.

Yeah, guess with Allan and Doucoure some of us “glass half full” thought we'd plugged the hole. I was wrong.

So close...

Gobs on them Mancs priceless.

Will Pep tell off Tuchel for beating him like he did Potter?

Well, they deserved it... but l hate Chelsea.

Chelsea deserved it and yeah Bill Gall can't argue with Kante

I'm off to bluemoon

Nice when it goes to the deserved winner. What a performance by Chelsea, incredible teamwork and control of the game, defending fabulous, all of it.

Gary, we got rid of 3 forwards and 1 right back at the start of the season and got no replacements

KNELLSEA! Ugh!

Odd to say, but Pep needs firepower up front.

Jeff, to be fair them Mancs are at least real football fans.

Kieran 75. He's a cross between Gordon and Christopher.

Well I guess the motto is you cant expect to win you have to work hard to win. City forwards and midfield out muscled.

That was a Tuchel masterclass, the finest team defensive performance I have seen in many years. Chelsea was totally prepared for everything City tried... planned and executed to the last step. Their pressure was relentless, their positioning flawless. I believe the most potent attacking club in the world went without a shot on target for the last 80 minutes. That was astonishing. And brilliant.

Kante clear MOTM for me. Performance of the year.

Tony

Haha true

The two full-backs were immense for Chelsea, and Tuchel got his tactics spot on, City saved one of their poorer performances for the biggest game and never troubled the Chelsea keeper all night.

With a touch of Edgar Munch thrown in.

How good were Chelsea. How good was Kante. How good was the ref.

Once again. See what can be done went your players give 100% effort.

Gary @73, what we're missing is the £500m or so needed to catch up with two exceptional squads. That would sort of the midfield and the flanks. But it would be a good start to bring in players with the sort of energy Chelsea have. Mind you, I think Pep over-complicated things with a false 9 and no midfield anchor.

'we wont win a Champions League with Pep as manager' Bluemoon

teehee

Chokers

Paul - true words. Not seen enough, even at the top of the game, and not at Everton.

Massive respect for Guardiola.
He overthougt that tonight.
Outcoached by Tuchel.

My biggest bet of the season hits the deck.

It takes more than effort to play that way, the players have to believe in what they're doing and then have the ability and collective will to carry out the tactics for the whole match, not to mention the discipline to only tackle when necessary. Carlo might be trying to employ the same tactics at Everton but we just don't have the right players to perform like that consistently.

What a great game. We can dream that in 4 or 5 years we'll be there.

That's how I'd love to see Everton end up playing, because Chelsea were defensively brilliant, and knew how, and when to attack, whilst also strangling the space to stop City being fluent tonight.

Man of the match was easy though, because that Spanish referee was absolutely brilliant tonight, and he was as far away from his EPL counterparts, as those two teams are away from Everton right now.

Dave @ 85…..only one of whom has shown it was a potential mistake (and even then with no proof he'd have done the same in prem). We have goals (not enough it's true) but unless we can feed the forwards, get more goals from the middle, and protect the defence it could be a mistake to focus only upfront. We need a kante and a havertz imho…..or a Gana and a Cahill. No small ask.

isn't that the 3rd game Tuchel has out thought Pep. Looks like after a short time at Chelsea he is going for Manager of the Year.

What a player Kante.

My motm Reece James

Tony, yes. What a top ref, not an error whatsoever, and ran the game like a conductor.

Agree, Tony #104, that was the best-officiated Cup final I have seen in a while. He was totally up to the occasion.

It's important to note, however, that Everton cannot play the way Chelsea did tonight. We haven't the speed or quickness. Every Chelsea player was a step quicker tonight than his City counterpart. We don't have that capability. We're the slowest club in the Prem over five yards. That's why I keep calling for speed, speed and more speed in our summer recruiting.

If it was just about effort, I'm not sure football would be the world game. To say that was about just effort, or to say that City choked, does a complete injustice to a football team that had a bit of everything tonight, and with three wins on the spin against City, maybe it's time for the defence first coaches, to start coming to the fore once again!

I honestly thought Everton defended brilliantly when they went out the FA Cup, to City, with one big massive difference of course.

Reece James looked a belter at Wigan. Fast forward a season or so and he looks magnificent in the Champions League final. Kante wins MoM for me though. Like having 12 men with Kante in the side. Not a thriller but a very high quality sophisticated match. I love how Chelsea played it.

Gutted at that result tbh.
When I've been absolutely pissed off, from our performances, watching City this season has lifted my spirits and some of the football they've played has been just brilliant to watch.
They shut our horrible neighbours up by winning the league at a canter and would have pissed them off even more had they won tonight.
That defeat will have the gobshites crowing again.

Agree Thomas pep overthought that
Tactically Chelsea got it spot on
Still can't understand City's starting line up

A coach with Ancelottis tactics just won the CL.
All done at a lot faster pace than we play at obviously.
Counter attack football is NOT a negative system.

John K.

Strange one his selection.

No holding midfielder for only the second time this season?

Thomas, agreed, Mount and Konte, outstanding.

It just shows what football is all about.

City were going for a quartet, at the start of 221. It just shows what true grit and belief and effort can achieve on a football pitch.

Chelsea were perfect and played the game to their strengths and snuffed City our.

City's biggest game ever and arguably they didn't turn up.

It's a funny old game.

Hopefully Everton's squad and management can take some heart and get some ideas from this game, to build a plan for next season.

Kante was mom easily, the guy never gives the ball away, Tuchel has got the Indian sign over Pep though, best team won.

Thomas yep I got whacked on my bet too.

Paul B.

What a player young Mount is.

Along with Grealish, Foden, Maddison we are blessed to watch such talent.

The ref was the business. Not a soft foul in sight. And he just refused to entertain any complaints. If only they were all like that. As for Chelsea, I despise them, but that was impressive. A brilliant performance. Kante and James in particular. Fully deserved as Pep tinkers himself out of Europe yet again.

Tony (104), A very good game which I think Chelsea deserved to win, didn't have a weak link anywhere on the field, fought and backed each right through the game with pace, determination and plenty of skill,City were not far behind but two or three players let them down tonight.

The referee was outstanding, never guessed any decisions, like many in the premier league do,made it very clear that he was the referee and in charge, explained and talked to the players who wanted to argue the toss and got his calls right, made me think he was an ex player the way he knew the game.

7 defensive players played from start by CFC. So its the players not the system.

"made me think he was an ex player the way he knew the game"

Ive said it for years Dave.
Fast track retiring players from lower divisions, who havent earned the big bucks, into refereeing.
Seems an obvious solution to what we see on a regular basis from people who have never kicked a ball.

It's on Southgate now because when England got to the World Cup semi's three years ago, midfield was definitely their weak-point, but this is definitely not the case right now. Four European teams reached the last four though, so England are definitely going to have to improve to have a chance of winning the Euro's.

A defensive masterclass from Chelski there,Kante seemed to be everywhere,strange team selection from Pep.

I think Chelski will be a major force next season...pace,power,skill and seem to have now the hoodoo over Citeh.

Sadly were light years behind both of them!.

Roberto doing analysis on US TV, and he is steaming. No smiles today. He thinks Rudiger should have been sent off for knocking out his captain. If de Bruyne has a concussion he will likely miss the first few games of the Euros, and that changes the odds for Belgium a bit.

Impressed with Chelsea. They wanted it more than Man City and Pep messed up once again with his team selection and tactics. Even Iwobi and Bernard would've done better than Sterling and Mahrez.

As I expected Chelsea had the beating of Man City. Everton in two games just put the four feet in the air against a side that where never world beaters.

Lack of industry at Everton, where all the cogs in the wheel are not working, means Everton where not going to be able to take advantage of that extra European p!ace, resulting from Chelsea win.

Man City are going to have to rebuild now and sort out their wobbly defence, exposed by teams that actually dare to attack it.

Kante is one hell of a midfielder, every football club in the world would want him in the team. Reece James has a great game too, really handled the pressure well in the first half, such a strong quality player. Sterling seemed to fade away against him. I thought their semi against Real Madrid was one of the performances of the season and they matched that tonight.

It was what I'd describe as a sin-bin offense Mike, but football hasn't got a sin-bin unfortunately, and it's maybe something that should be brought into the game? I've just read that it looks like the away goals rule is being abolished from next season in the European competitions, so that's one change that I'm sure is going to help the defensive coaches?

Jerome @127,

I'm pretty sure that, whichever side won tonight's final, it made no difference to the number of European places available for English teams.

The ref has never played the game at any decent level, he's just a good ref.

Thomas it gives us hope and I hope like all of us on TW and all Evertonians, that Everton's time will come again, soon.

But belief and spirit is massive, and Chelsea and Tuschel earned that win tonight.

I've seen Mount play often over a few seasons in the U23s going back about 4, 5 years, and he looked like an old fashioned footballer then.

Fair play to the lad and he's worked hard.

Sparing a thought for Ross, where will he be playing next season...

Paul A.

We are Evertonians mate. Hope is eternal.

Looking forward to next season already mate. 👍

Barry#130,

You are right Barry, Chelsea had already qualified. If Leicester City had qualified, it would have resulted in a extra place. Just fustrated by Everton's lack of industry.

Chelsea appointed Lampard and it didn't go to plan so they made a change and now look at them – makes you think...

Barry, it does make me think. My thought is that we don't have anything like enough money to compete at the top or to keep sacking managers.

Tony A.

I respect your tactical knowledge, you and Danny O post very insightfully.

What were your thoughts on Pep not going with a holding midfielder tonight?
My own thoughts were that he thought he would blow them away early?

Robert 136

Did Tuchel spend a fortune then?

Barry,

You can't be saying that our squad is as good as Chelsea's surely?

Jay 13,9

Of course not. No-one in their right mind would suggest this squad could morph into Champions League winners but, if we pro rata the improvement Tuchel achieved post Lampard, where might we have finished?

4th perhaps?

Barry, Chelsea have spent fortunes for nearly two decades. Lampard was doing a hopeless job relative to investment. Tuchel just got them where they should be - top 4, winning trophies. Our level of investment puts us 7th. Ancelotti finished 3 points off that. Someone else might have got us another few points but 4th was never up for grabs with a squad that is barely better than Aston Villa. What manager would have got this squad to 4th?

Note to Mr Kenrick;

This thread appears to be all about a match and teams that have diddly squat to do with Everton, and you've often deplored any mere comment like that, never mind whole threads.

Has TW been (only temporarily I hope) subverted by alien forces Michael?

As for the game or result, who gives a shit?

"As I expected Chelsea had the beating of Man City."

Haha. Is that so? So you just forgot to say so during the game? Post-game pundits, eh.

Speaking of which. There was no "masterclass" or "out-coached" anything.

Pep sent City out the same way he's done all season; including national and European tournament play. Did pretty well.

Tuchel sent Chelsea out the same way he's done since he took over. "Here we are and here we come". Plus Kante.

Neither club over-matched. One scored a goal. The other didn't.

Well-officiated, fun game to watch.

And I hope Debruyne's OK. For sure, that collision fucked him up.

"Lampard was doing a hopeless job relative to investment."

Gibberish.

In just a few months, Tuchel took over the exact same roster into the Top 4 and won the CL.

Lampard was simply a shit manager. No more to it than that.

German managers seem to get a good response from English teams. We should have got a German after Moyes. Back when we had a miserable Scottish King, we quickly realized nobody wanted that. So went out and found ourselves a German king. It worked wonders.

Paul (#132), as long as the thick bugger doesn't end up with us I couldn't care less.

He appoints his agent and they screwed us, royally.

He's turned out to be consistently inadequate as a professional footballer since screwing us.

Oh dear, 'ow sad, never mind!

One of "Unsy's" best players though. Hmmm.

Don, ditto, but he's one of our lads, but will never get to the promised land, in football terms, as sure is Day is day and Night is night.

What a wasted opportunity and talent.

It puts EFC, football, and life in perspective, and nothing is certain, but working hard and believing does help.

Let's hope this preseason delivers good fortune for Everton, and 5bisvtime next year Everton, are playing in Europe.

Well said Paul, but it maybe that your/my "everyman" outlook is the one thing that's hampered us as a club since the 80's.

We need to be more ruthless - unpleasant as it may be.

Last 3 CL finals have been won by teams with German managers. Weird!!!

Soren

I read it's the second time three different managers from the same country have won it in successive seasons with the prior time being 79-81 with Clough, some old guy, then Tony Barton. Maybe next time it'll be Thomas Frank, Morten Olsen and Erik Rasmussen

Not a surprise though Soren.

Funnily enough, I said somewhere else that our cousins acted wisely when they appointed Klopp. And swiftly once they knew he was available (I didn't say that, just adding it now). And that Chelsea pulled a blinder once they knew Tuchel was available. The RB Leipzig coach has just been snapped up by Bayern.

Repetition & bias warning. Regular posters know my admiration of the German footballing system. Given Carlo is here for the next 2 years barring a disaster, identify the next up and coming German coach and track.

They have the knack of being able to develop young talent, manage great players with big egos, get the best out of what they have and play the game the right way.

Sorry Thomas I went to bed but Glenn Hoddle, was getting on my nerves saying City had to many defensive players on the pitch, when it was obvious they never had enough of them imo.

I think the midfielder Rodri? Is the best recycler of a football I've seen playing in English football (big statement) and the one thing City never done last night was constantly recycle the ball the way they normally do?

Two weeks ago Chelsea lost a cup final at Wembley, to a team that defended deep and looked to play on the counter-attack, and lost one nil, and this time they have won the biggest competition in European football playing exactly the same way, because they didn't let Manchester City's danger-men breathe.

Reece James is getting a lot of accolades, but I think Mahrez, has been City's most dangerous player in Europe, so Chillwell, epitomised Chelsea last night, by not allowing him any room to manoeuvre, and I will say it again, this is the style I'd love Everton to play in more than any other, even if I'm asking for a miracle!🙏

I think Lampard deserves a lot of credit, and wouldn't be surprised to see him manage Chelsea again at some point in the future.

He got Chelsea into the champions league, by blooding a few kids because of their transfer embargo, and then he signed a few very good players last summer.

He maybe didn't have the experience required to manage the squad he'd assembled, and this is where Tuchel, has stepped in.

Thomas R, a mad question but why do you think Ancellotti, played open football at Manchester City last week?

There was discussion on the Ellis Simms thread yesterday Tony that I had a stab at answering. It was around player ability versus coaching and what impact coaching can have.

I think you're example is perfect to that. Lampard was doing the right thing, but as soon as a more experienced coach like Tuchel came in, it had an impact and effect on the very good mix of players (youth and experience) that Lampard had assembled.

James#144

I have always maintained that Chelsea could win on ToffeeWeb. After playing Everton, Man City where exposed defensively when pressure was applied by opposition team. They also could be strifled in attack, needing De Bruyne to inject much needed pace, which Everton didn't have. But others did have pace shutting off De Bruye. Chelsea have significantly improved their discipline and defence, and do have clinical attacking players. Thats what got them the one goal difference.

A fully functioning Everton are not so far away. Everton's application and effort being the let down in comparison to these two teams. Everton where beaten before they got onto the pitch, against City.

The most simplest way to describe coaching Danny, is to ask could Thomas Tuchel, have got Everton's current squad to play like that last night?

Football is about mostly about the players, and that is why I asked Thomas, why he thought Ancellotti played an open game at City, when he already knew our best defensive game, wasn't enough to beat the champions!

Our manager tried it in the FA Cup fixture against City Tony.

We just don't have the players. But tactically, Carlo and Tuchel were pretty much on the same page.

Tony 152, Good comments about Chilwell, he was down Mahrez's throat often giving him no time and no space for any creative play. A real disciplined performance of the highest order. Both Chilwell and James had an incredible match negating Mahrez and Stirling.

The work rate and intensity has been second to none in the semi's and final. I think it is crucial we have to be signing quality players who can accommodate that incredible work rate and intensity to have any chance at all in breaking into the top six.

Then the manager and coaching staff have to motivate to make sure it comes to the table when it matters.

Tony,

Chelsea had Kante in midfield we had Davies, they had James and Chillwell as full backs we had Digne and Holgate, they had Mount pulling the strings in midfield we had Gylfi etc etc.

We can go on about tactics for ever and a day but it's simply down to the quality of players you have.

If Carlo is still not performing when he's had 3 transfer windows to bring I'm his own players in then serious questions need to be asked but there is no point judging him when he's managing shit like Holgate, Davies and Iwobi etc as Pep, Klopp and Tutchel combined wouldn't get much out of them.

Morning Tony,

I said at the time that one was down to the manager mate, lost me on what he was hoping to achieve that day.

Imo Pep overthought that last night.
Screaming out for a defensive midfielder after first 15 mins.

Tony #152 & 153] Down here in SW London, most of the Chelsea fans I work with give Frank Lampard lots of credit for assembling the squad, felt that he probably got the job too soon (and couldn't turn it down) and wouldn't be surprised to see him back in the role in the future.
Like you, and knowing how dangerous Mahrez is, I thought Chilwell was outstanding- just edging James and Kante for MOM.

I think Ancellotti's lost me a few times this season, but not last Sunday though Thomas. It was as if he was asking the question, what do you seriously expect me to achieve with this squad? but at least he waited until the last game to ask the question!

Silva asked the same question at Bournemouth, when he sat down on the bench when a simple ball over the top crucified us imo, and you just knew he wouldn't last long after that.

I've wracked my brains on why Ancellotti changed a system that was getting a lot of success out of a limited squad, and think it can only be because he knows we will never move on in the longer term, until we get a bigger and better squad of players. That's the only real thing that makes any sense to me anyway?

I'm glad Lampard is getting some credit Mike, and I never thought I'd say it (not since the lunatic days of the 70/80'S) but those Chelsea fans done their team proud last night, whilst the city fans had a look of resignation from very early on in the game.

one thing stood out for me and that was the way that the Chelsea players could stay touch tight to Sterling, Mahrez, Gundogan etc because had great pace. Ours don't so have to stand off to give themselves a chance. The modern game is based around pace yet we continue to buy players without the basic attribute-you can coach tactics, ball control etc but you cant coach pace into a player

I think there was a lesson for Moshiri/ Usmanov to learn from last night and that is this summer if you want to compete with the top boys then you will need to commit to spending what Chelsea spent last summer £200 million. Otherwise we become a 6th to 12th club depending on the level of spending we have for the next 4 years while financing the new stadium..

I have to admit to being slightly embarrassed watching the Champions league final, and seeing yet another 2 English clubs competing at Europe's premier competition, and then think we have never been to a European Cup or Champions league final. To think we have been in the top flight the longest and yet never been near winning that competition, the closest we got when knocked out by Panatninakos in the 70s. Since I have been watching Everton I have seen all the English Champions league winners spend time in the lower divisions but not us. So how come we have never got to the final and lets face it we havent even qualified for the group stages, is it so much to ask that we qualify for the group stages in the next 5 years. But to do that we are going to have to match what the top 4 are spending.

Don Alexander @142,

I doubt if you really need this explanation but I'll provide it anyway.

Some Everton fans are also football fans. They like to watch other teams, especially in "big games" that may have broader interest or appeal, such as the FA Cup Final, perhaps even the Europa League Final... and yes, even the Champions League Final.

Some Everton fans who use this site like to post their observations about such games that don't involve Everton. They have been known to post such thoughts on other threads that are Everton-related.

In recognition of this reality, and for other reasons, we created a General Forum category and here we put such topics. In this way, our readers know where they can post their thoughts and observations in exchange with other readers, rather than otherwise having sporadic posts popping up on unrelated threads.

As for the game, it was a tactical masterclass by Tuchel that I suspect even Carlo Ancelotti might have watched admiringly. And as the thread itself demonstrates, there are plenty of Evertonians at least who 'give a shit' so I think in this case, the means fully justifies the end... or have I got that backwards?

Ray,

100% correct pace is what Everton are screaming out for. Most of our players are chasing shadows because they haven't got the athleticism to play at the highest level in this modern game. If you haven't got good pace nowadays you have to be an extremely good player to be effective eg Terry, Sheringham etc type quality. Look at Reece James last night and how he completely controlled Sterling and same on the other flank with Chilwell.

Sanchez. White, Webster,Burn, Jahanbakhsh,Gross,Bissouma, Alzate,Moder, Mac Alister, Welbeck.

This is the team which beat City five days before City beat us 5-0

If you are always going to blame the players. the manager can get twatted any time he likes. What a job Carlo has got. 11M quid and half the fans hold him accountable for nothing.... Our squad is choc full of internationals. The fella selling the hot dogs would get more out of out these players than Carlo

I think many people are now fully aware that they have nailed their colours to a rotten mast...They are just having trouble admitting it.

Tenth playing zombie football after three windows. How bad does it have to get ?

For me the person who stood out most last night was the ref, he was absolutely brilliant. He understood that football is a contact sport and sometimes when players collide its not necessary a foul. Finally a ref who understood the game not just the rules and very little impact from VAR.

Also he communicated with the players on the field telling them while the game was going on why he made a certain decision. It was like going back before VAR was used a ref using common sense to referee a game, and more over the players seemed to enjoy it. It was quite noticeable that after a while the players realized you couldn't con this ref so they bye and large got on with the game.

I'm up in Mancland with the Manu in-laws, they were setting off fireworks in the garden at the final whistle. Next door neighbour is a City fan.

Just read on the BBC website that its now 10 years since Guardiola won the Champions league, he was hoping to emulate Paisley, Zidane and Ancelotti in winning it 3 times. Strange how he can produce teams that can dominate leagues and cups but has struggled to win the Champions league. His teams all play good entertaining football, but since Barcelona he cant get his hands on the champions league. I mean how hard can it be after all there is a doddery old guy at Everton who according to some hasn't a clue what he is doing has won it 3 times.

Darren,

I don't think anyone thinks Carlo is completely blameless he's got things wrong of course he has but surely even you would agree he's fairly hamstrung by the level of players at his disposal?

The talk of Kante is interesting. I'm not suggesting he's the same level, but how much have we missed Gueye doing that job for us?

Tony A @ 162, Carlo played a higher defensive line against City than we employed away from home last season. I am also still unsure why he did it, as the outcome was predictable.

Tuchel has been able to maximise his approach with a deeper defensive line as he has such pace and athleticism to counter in midfield and attack. I was really surprised that Guardiola did not select Fernandinho to sit deep to counteract this.

As David Thomas says, we need pace in midfield and on the wing as a priority for next season, together with a energetic and mobile right back. Ancelloti and Brands will know this better than anyone, so I would love to see some early progress in the tranfer market.

Regarding Pep he does seem a "mitherer" remember that clip at Goodison when he was caught fretting about Liverpool and the upcoming cl game rather than concentrating on the Everton game.

A City fan summarised him quite well - great with a good squad over a league campaign when the odd fuck up can be rectified but "one off" big games he tends to over coach. Got a blind spot for that excuse of a footballer, Sterling, as well.

Another elite coach I suspect who would struggle with a ground up rebuild

The fella selling the hot dogs would get more out of out these players than Carlo"

I'm available at short notice. ,"The fella selling the hot dogs would get more out of out these players than Carlo"

I'm available at short notice. ,,,1,11:40:48,,213.205.242.98,ok,23848,05/30/2021 11:40:48,Tomrichards2@outlook.com,reader,,,no 1159431,40870,toffeeweb,30/05/2021,Danny O'Neill,dannyefc26@gmail.com,"Just an impression I get Michael. I did say it was unqualified and not informed as I don't know.

The other angle I was coming at was that I think Unsworth may have benefited from moving on to take a job with a league team as has the Blackpool coach.

If that came over as critical, they I've probably used poor language. I just think it would have benefited his development as a coach.

Tony 162,

" Thomas. It was as if he was asking the question, what do you seriously expect me to achieve with this squad?"

You may be onto something there.

Brian (164). I kind of get your sentiment. Ultimately, for a so called big club, we haven't done well enough over the years to get ourselves in a position to compete in this competition.

I had a quick scan and since the introduction of Europe's top competition in both of it's formats, we have qualified only 5 times.

The last time we did, yes, we got undone by a dodgy referee decision in the qualifying round, but arguably we did not invest in the squad to make that irrelevant.

Bitter blue moment; the other 2 times we did in my lifetime as champions of England, and arguably could have made a genuine fist of it, we were denied to opportunity to do so. Like many, I wonder if that would have made a difference to our fortunes?

Michael (165). Absolutely and thank you for setting up the opportunity to discuss wider football matters. Even if it did take me several years and many prompts to discover it!!

You can't please everyone, especially when people can say a manager is only great for winning leagues, but tends to get found out in one-off cup games!

I know you get most things right when it comes to Everton managers Darren, but if people are prepared to give Ancellotti time, surely it doesn't mean they're nailing their rotten masts to a post mate, because maybe not everyone can see the wisdom of getting rid of another manager just yet?

I was thinking about Unsworth telling us how much of an Evertonian, Marcel Brands is (sounding just like Bill Kenwright), just after reading about how Neil Critchley has tried to improve Ellis Simms. I was thinking if Unsworth really wanted the Everton job, then surely he'd have gone and managed a league team, and was wondering if he's maybe got it way too easy at Everton?

I made that point about Unsworth on the Ellis Simms thread Tony.

I also agree with your earlier point (162) about the manager laying bare to the board how far apart we are and what tools he's dealing with.

All speculative and conspiracy theorist but that seed got planted in my head towards the end of last season too.

I hope my betting opponent is reading this thread.

You owe me a fiver mate. Bet you didn't expect that on a CL final thread, hahaha!

I'm convinced there was a 'laying bare' element to the set up and tactics against Man City. Ancelotti has been round the block too many times for him to be that naive, he is ramming home the point.

It is certainly the players first and foremost, we need those players who can bring the infectious energy and desire that Chelsea showed. We need at least four in this window who can bring some of this pace and intensity. They must, of course, be quality footballers too !

The pace of the English game has changed irrevocably and our squad has not changed with it. It needs rectifying very, very fast as teams like Leeds are overtaking us. Others are not far behind them.

I think we've used the excuse that the manager is showing the board how poor our squad is many times before after a humbling defeat or non-performance. I don't buy it and never will.

If the manager's relationship with the board is so fractured that he has to physically demonstrate how bad his team is, then he and the club are in a very bad place.

I think it was just a rank bad performance on a rank bad day for Everton and I bet this morning that Pep had wished he had played his second-string against Everton last Sunday.

Hi Darren [167] I have on occasion, written in support of your right to express your views on Everton matters, but I'm afraid that your constant criticism of Carlo Ancelotti is wearing a little thin now. No one can deny that the football recently has been of a poor standard, but we can't expect Manchester City performances, if we don't possess players of Manchester City 'ability'. I'm still on for that bottle of Guinness if God spares me

I wish he had too Barry (second string comment).

And thanks, you've just put me back in a bad place reminding me of last Sunday. I thought I'd moved on!!

Off out to watch young Simms and see how he gets on!!

Kieran (150), Lol. Thomas Frank, Morten Olsen and Erik Rasmussen? More chance of hell being frozen over than THAT happens 😂.

Danny (151). I believe "most" German coaches can do a decent job as we've seen many times before. Don't forget Hans Dieter Flick, now ex. Bayern coach.

As for how far we're behind Chelsea and City, I'd say never mind those. We are years behind Leicester!

De Bruyne came off with a fractured eye socket and broken nose, so pace was the key.

I've usually laid the blame at Ancelotti for our bad performances Barry, because they have usually happened when he's moved away from being hard to beat, and he's played the wrong system, like a diamond midfield, without width.

Last Sunday, I thought City, could go and score ten after they had just scored their second goal, such were the gaps between our players, and the lack of any organisation throughout the team.

He's organised us to be hard to beat, and this has gave us our best results, and yet when he hasn't, teams like Burnley, Fulham and relegated Sheffield Utd, have overrun us in midfield, and yet he decided to play out the last game, against the best team in the land, without that defensive protection?

I remember Nottm Forest losing 5-0 at Anfield, and Brian Clough telling the players that they were too honest, and also very naive, because they should have shut up shop against a rampant team at 3-0 down, and because they were a relatively young side he let it run, and was going to shoulder part of the blame for not changing it.

It's why I've been racking my brains with Carlo Ancelotti for a while now because, even if he was way past his best (like some people say), I'm not sure he's that far over the hill he hadn't noticed this. Or many of the other things that haven't been easy to accept, whilst also being difficult to fathom?

Do you mean the pace of the impact when they collided, Jerome? A very cynical, blindsided foul.

Like most, I love the passion and the commitment of a good tackle.

But the more I look that, what a shithouse action by Rudiger.

I have read some question De Bruyne's desire (not just here by the way). Broken nose I could lived with. Broken eye socket? I challenge anyone to play on with that one!

Oh well...

We don't want Mourinho as manager as he's passed it and been sussed out. We need a young progressive manager like Pep.

We don't want Ancelotti as manager as he's passed it and been sussed out. We need a young progressive manager like Pep.

Fuck Pep, sussed out by Tuchel! We need a young progressive manager like... Tuchel?

At least with City apparently being reported having to “rebuild”, the Holgate transfer will more than likely be back on...

You can't compare last night's City team to the current Everton team and just blame the coach. Everton is a big job in such a mess, it will take 5 years to get things right.

We have been trying to make big leaps too soon with Koeman and Silva and ended worse off than before. We need to give Ancelotti 3 more years to see what progress he can make.

Three serial winners.

De Bruyne 'bottled it.'
City are 'chokers'.
Guardiola a 'mitherer.'

More.

'Lampard was doing a hopeless job relative to investment.'
'Lampard was simply a shit manager.'

De Bruyne was visibly seriously injured and had to be subbed out. Today he reports he has an acute nose bone fracture and left orbital fracture. This has immediate implications for Belgium in the Euros and the player's long term health and well-being. Some 'bottler'.

City have set a standard very few teams in the history of football can match. Narrowly losing a single one-off game doesn't make them serial 'chokers'.

Pep Guardiola selected the wrong team and tactics last night, unquestionably. It happens to every manager. He's done alright in his now 700+ games landing trophy after trophy at Barcelona, Bayern Munich and now City. Again, getting it wrong in one game doesn't qualify him as a serial 'mitherer'.

Frank Lampard in his first gig as a manager at Derby got them to the Championship play-off final, then got the Chelsea gig at the time they had a transfer embargo.

Chelsea actually benefited from this as Lampard wasn't shy in using young 'uns from the academy he was familiar with (he had Mount on loan with him for the full season at Derby) that otherwise might not have got a chance with a foreign manager unfamiliar with the players and unwilling to play them ahead of expensive imports.

The 'hopeless and shit' Lampard got Chelsea 4th in the league last season (which of course qualified them for this season's CL which they've just won) in his one full season and narrowly lost the FA Cup Final to Arsenal.

He safely navigated Chelsea through this season's CL qualifying group with 4 wins and 2 draws.

With the lifting of their transfer embargo, last summer under Lampard they splashed an eye-watering £200 million on Mendy (a steal at £24 million), Chilwell, Havertz, Werner and Ziyech. All but one of them played in last night's final.

To those you can add the excellent homegrown James and Mount. More than half the Chelsea team last night was Lampard's team then, without counting the longer-serving players he naturally also relied on.

Before Everton beat Lampard's Chelsea at Goodison in December, Chelsea had gone 17 games unbeaten in domestic and European football. He lasted just 9 more games and six more weeks and was gone before the end of January.

The ruthless Abramovich saw the opportunity to appoint the free agent Thomas Tuchel 2 days after Lampard's sacking.

Frank Lampard managed 57 games with Championship side Derby, 84 games with PL Chelsea. He did more than fine with both and will, I believe, have a sound career in football management.

Similarly, Bottler De Bruyne, Chokers City and Mitherer Guardiola will, I fancy, continue to do moderately well.

Tony#188

Professional foul, key effect on tactics.

Post #50: De Bruyne, get a grip man, pull yourself together and get back out there, you
re the captain. City's chance just gone with the Captain bottling it.

Post #62. De Bruyne had no influence on the game, he got a knock after 75 minutes and went off. Yes, he has bottled it, it's a Champions League Final, for fuck's sake!

De Bruyne fractured his nose and his eye socket in the incident where he apparently bottled it.
TW eh? Brings 'em all out!

Tony (152), yes I thought City missed Rodri and the way he is involved all the time with the ball, passing and moving all the time and bring player after player into the game, don't know if he is the best. Kante is brilliant for Chelsea at this and proved it last night.

Liverpool have two of this type of player, Fabiano and Firmino who are definitely missed when they don't play, because you take it for granted how good they are when they do play.

Great thread with some thought provoking contributions. Tuchel provide a pragmatic game plan! Or Pep overthought it and tried to blow Chelsea away in the first 20 minutes, sadly he didn't have a KDB on his top form or a Messi like figure to provide a finishing point.

Given Tuchel had a defensive/ low block set up as highlighted by the professional commentators on BT no more than 17 meters between Chelseas forward line and defence surely we expect the usual suspects to callout Tuchels negative game plan!!!!!!!! As the win means nothing as they didn't try to entertain or play an open expensive game plan.

Johnny Mac,

I'm afraid you are falling into the same trap a number of people fall into on this site. You are seeing only one part of the debate.

I didn't even see the match last night. I came on here to read about it but, by the time I posted, there were already several people talking about Ancelotti and they were offering the same tired excuse that the players are not good enough.

It's rather telling that you didn't pull any of those posters up, but you did home in on the one which claimed the players are a lot better than Carlo has been getting out of them. That's something I am well used to on this site.

There's a curious imbalance on this website. Anyone who criticises Carlo is pack-hunted. Some of the abuse I saw leveled at one person was just plain nasty. He abused or addressed nobody. I'm not talking about banter or mild name-calling or micky taking. I'm talking about vile nasty abuse. It's an attempt to shout down, to intimidate, to discourage criticism.... Doesn't wash with me.

This shouting down doesn't always manifest itself in abuse, sometimes its more subtle. The "Oh this is comedy gold" is designed to stop people posting, but imaginary bets against imaginary betting partners fool nobody.

I'm disappointed that you choose to tackle one of the few dissenting voices, yet overlook all those hundreds of posts we see on here repeating the tiresome old mantra; That Carlo is hamstrung because the players are not good enough. However, reading your post, I see why... It's a view you share.

Quite why people want to bring Manchester City players into the equation is beyond me. We don't have players at that level, but we have a squad full of internationals, most of whom would easily get a game for a Top 5 or Top 6 team... We finished 10th.

Not only has Carlo Ancelotti under-performed, he has done so bringing embarrassment upon our club in the process. This is NOT football.

"Carlo Fantastico" has offered very little to his supporters, but he has given his critics no end of reasons to be critical... That's why they are growing in number. That is telling in itself.

I look forward to the day when I get next to you over a bottle of Guinness, John, but that will only be to listen to your fantastic tales. Talk of Carlo will have to be off the menu, because we are never going to agree about him.

I think there have been better midfielders, Dave, I just think that the player Rodri, is such a vital cog in Manchester City's carousel style of football, which they never quite got going last night.

Kante was brilliant, Tuchel was probably delighted to get the better version of Gana Gueye, when he joined Chelsea, but I love players like Mount, the players that can beat a man with one movement, full of drive and always looking to get the ball forwards, and absolutely perfect for a counter-attacking style?

Tuchel sounds like he's driven, and also has a sense of humour, and he's probably going to need both, such is the strength of some of the teams in the Premier League, right now.

In a one-off final it doesn't matter what tactics you employ so long as it's a successful one. Everton played that way in 1995 against United at Wembley and it could be argued against Spurs too in the Semi.

Employing a defensive low-block is not a crime in certain games but it won't lead to success if it was employed for a complete league campaign. The 1995 team had the speed to transition from defence to attack in a blink of an eye, with midfielders willing to run themselves into the ground.

What we've witnessed at Everton this calendar year has been nothing like we have seen from Chelsea in their cup campaigns, as we don't have the natural speed in the midfield or the guile in attack to hurt our opponents often enough.

The bottom line is whichever tactics Everton employs, we don't have enough quality players to make them work consistently.

The link below attempts to analyse Everton's current situation.

The beautiful and the damned

Darren,

I'll pull out two things there.

You are absolutely right to call out the manager and he is absolutely not beyond criticism. Personally I don't mind yours or anyone else's view. It's welcome.

The other one is what sees us in agreement. We don't have the players; City do have (your words). If Pep took over Everton tomorrow he would bring in better players. We need better players. That's a simple and stark fact.

Just like Klopp did over the Park. He didn't win the league with the team he inherited. Howard Kendall didnt at Everton either. Keep those who can do a job as part of that squad but most definitely bring in better players. We need better players regardless of who the manager is and will be.

Anyway, I know we've had spats and I know you have issue with me but I don't have issue with most of your views. They're yours, mine are mine. We're all entitled to them.

We don't always have to agree, rarely will everyone do so on everything. But you can and should have that Guiness with John Senior.

Jay Wood 192

"Similarly, Bottler De Bruyne, Chokers City and Mitherer Guardiola will, I fancy, continue to do moderately well."

Quite so but not really the point.

Under mitherer Pep they have lost high pressure Champions League ties to Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea in succession when favourites. Irrefutably they bottle it when pressed on the biggest stage.

Sorry, dem's da facts.

Ehrm, no Barry.

They are partial facts which ignore the many, MANY more examples where none of De Bruyne, City or Guardiola bottled high pressure games.

When you make a valid serious claim I will give it serious consideration.

You didn't, so I don't.

Jay Wood 202

The highest pressure games are the CL which they haven't won as a club and continue to bottle under Pep; ergo, at the highest level, they are bottlers.

They really are the facts whether you like them or not.

"We don't have players at that level, but we have a squad full of internationals, most of whom would easily get a game for a top 5-6 team."

Chance to start a good debate here Darren. Which of our players could get in the top 5-6 teams?

Bottler De Bruyne??

😂😂😂😂

Darren (197) - “I'm afraid you are falling into the same trap a number of people fall into on this site. You are seeing only one part of the debate.”

Oh Darren, please tell can you us what it is like to see the whole debate? It must be so wonderful to know that you are posting on this forum having considered everything equally and come up with the right answer to everything, so please do help us come round to your way of thinking.

And the good news is that you don't have to do it without patronising anyone who disagrees with you, or calling them fools, or morons, or any other derogatory term that you might care to plump for – which is a bonus considering you have proven yourself incapable of the alternative. Vote for Darren!

I also think the new black and orange away kit is okay.*

* This is a comment on Everton matters and should stop this post from being deleted, no?

Barry, this:

'The highest pressure games are the CL which they haven't won as a club and continue to bottle under Pep ergo at the highest level they are bottlers.'

Again, seriously?

At the end of January 2019, City surprisingly lost 2-1 away to Newcastle in game 24 in the PL season which gave Liverpool a 5 point advantage at the top of the table.

Liverpool kept winning-winning-winning. City had to do likewise and hope Liverpool faltered. They did.

From that defeat in January until their thumping 6-0 FA Cup win v Watford on 12 May, City played and won every single one of their remaining 14 PL games knowing a single draw or defeat would hand Liverpool the title.

City won the title from Liverpool by one single point, 98 points to 97. Liverpool's tally would have secured them the title in every other PL season bar one, the previous one when City scored 100 points.

They played 4 FA Cup ties, winning them all and winning the cup.

They played the League Cup final v Chelsea, winning the cup.

They played 4 CL games, winning 3, losing one of them 1-0 away to Spurs. They were eliminated by Spurs despite winning the home leg 4-3 in controversial circumstances in which today's VAR rules had applied, two incidents which went against City that night would have ruled in their favour.

23 high pressure games ALL in four months. 22 wins, a single 1-0 defeat.

It landed them the League Cup, the FA Cup and the PL title.

You keep being selective in how you 'qualify' what counts as 'high pressure games'.

I'll take a more holistic approach, if you don't mind.

Jay Wood 206

"I'll take a more holistic approach, if you don't mind."

Of course I don't mind people can avoid inconvenient facts in whatever way they want. Although it's worth mentioning even City fans are questioning the continued failure under Pepperoni at the top level. But if it makes you feel better who am I to defuse your delusion?

Darren. But you really ARE comedy gold!

Let's see how many you catch today!

By the way, Darren, "comedy gold" is a phrase you've used on here yourself when referring to posts by others. Were you using it to shout someone down mate?

Ehrm again Barry. This:

'Of course I don't mind people can avoid inconvenient facts in whatever way they want.'

Which is exactly what you are doing Barry.

And this:

'Although it's worth mentioning even City fans are questioning the continued failure under Pepperoni at the top level.'

In this very thread I've said Guardiola 'unquestionably got his selection and tactics' wrong.

Your point being..?

And this:

'But if it makes you feel better who am I to defuse your delusion?'

Written for yourself about yourself, Barry..?

Hi Darren [197], I'm afraid that you missed the point of my post, maybe I didn't make my position clear for which I apologise.

I put myself in your position, rightly or wrongly, and decided that, if I couldn't get my point across in what I consider as an acceptable five posts, I would withdraw from the fray.

Although not a long-term ToffeeWeb reader, I have seen many topics turn into verbal warfare where personal remarks are exchanged. I have previously stated that I agree with quite a lot of what you write, but to rip into Carlo Ancelotti from the moment he arrived... I can recall you writing that you didn't want him as manager in the first place; that has appeared to have become your mindset.

It's been pointed out that Howard Kendall didn't immediately transform Everton into what they became. In his first season in charge, he signed Alan Ainscow, Jim Arnold, Alan Biley, Mick Ferguson, Mickey Thomas, Alan Irvine, Neville Southall, and Mike Walsh. By the time the 1984 FA Cup win was achieved, most of those players had left the club.

So Darren, I think that 18 months or so is not such a long time to wait for improvement; it's just about the same time that you and I have had to wait for my bottle of Guinness, and your choice of drink.

"Cheers".

Jay Wood @210,

If you have a coherent point about Man City not choking in the Champions League competitions even when favourites, I'm all ears. As it stands, you are again drifting into bluster mode.

If you can't address the point, please stop wasting my time, take it on the chin that you failed to address the point within the parameters set.

Given time, your sensitive ego will recover – probably about the time Man City win the Champions League. Ouch!!

To be totally fair Andrew (#205), I've disagreed with Darren a number of times and he's not called me a fool or a moron or indeed any derogatory names whatsoever. Just using logic, I can't be the only one here to have that experience either.

It's actually somewhat ironic to read Darren's allegation: "This shouting down doesn't always manifest itself in abuse, sometimes it's more subtle..." and then the middle paragraph of Andrew's post actually. Baited and hooked, or was that the point? Above my pay grade regardless.

The sustained dip in league and home form certainly has me mildly concerned and glad the season ended when it did. I do not however share Darren's view that "The fella selling the hot dogs would get more out of out these players than Carlo" – either literally or in sentiment though.

I've said repeatedly this squad has quite a low ceiling and I actually think Ancelotti is closer to scraping it than the critics might think. I hasten to add, that doesn't mean he's the right or wrong man as manager – but, like many (most?), there are several of this playing group I am pretty keen to see the back of and find out what alternatives could bring to the table in terms of playing style.

If anyone does deem fit to insult me for holding such comparatively mild views, then I rather feel it reflects more upon them than those views. And furthermore, I feel the average ToffeeWeb reader is of such intelligence as to spot a genuine contest of ideas and what is a glorified slanging match and allocate their reading and response time accordingly.

We could perhaps figuratively do with more playing the ball and not the man during the course of the vast contest of ideas that is ToffeeWeb. The place seems to work better when that is the case.

I think Darren is right, insofar as Carlo is manifestly failing to get the best out of these players, and it's been like that for months. I'm surprised he is enjoying the level of support he is, cos I reckon we finished this season comfortably the worst team in the Premier League. That horrendous five-nil thumping... Man Cty didn't do that to anybody else.

In the last few games, Newcastle and Brighton both stuck three past them, Chelsea beat them twice but they flattened us like a pancake. We played Aston Villa twice when they were on the beach, and were lucky to get a point. We were whacked at home by Sheffield Utd, and just scraped past Wolves and Spurs who were bossed by dead men walking. And against all these teams we had the goal of Europe to fight for. And we played the worst football I've seen in a generation.

And then, on top of all of that, Carlo's reaction: "I'm not a magician." And his "If we don't qualify for Europe, it will have been a good season. If we make the dreadful Europa League, it will have been a great season."

These are the words of somebody who does not give a stuff. He's had 18 months, and he finished the season absolutely stinking the place out.

No manager since Roberto's first season has been able to get anything out of his players. It's not just Carlo. Maybe it's the players and their terrible attitudes.

Ehrm, Barry.

You called City/Guardiola 'chokers' in a one-word post @ 99.

It took you a further five posts @ 201 to retrospectively qualify that by selectively applying the moniker to Champions League ties only.

Now @ 212 you repeat this revionist retrospective of the actual chronology of your posts by claiming I 'failed to address the point within the parameters set.'

Your presumed parameters were not set. I know the chronology of what was said, when and by who, Barry. It's there for all to read.

You really resent being legitimately challenged on anything, don't you Barry?

I rather fancy it's not me 'drifting into bluster mode' rather than acknowledge the legitimate referenced challenges made to your position.

No surprises there.

I also doubt that 'Given time your sensitive ego [Barry] will recover.'

We had this kid when I was at infant school who'd skulk about the playground and bite random kids. Then his parents would be up at the school saying people were picking on him because they didn't want to be friends with him.

Hi Darren,

You mentioned on another thread we had some very good players; you also mention on this thread you say most of our squad of internationals would get a game in a Top 5 or Top 6 team.

I hope you're on the wind-up, as usual; otherwise, you need sectioning.

#218 - superb!

Derek (213),

I didn't realise we are supposed be being “totally fair” – how thoroughly decent of you. I desperately want to make fair statements, but it is largely beyond me. If only I had some of that elusive “logic” of which you speak.

Darren has a few enablers on this site, so well done for joining the ranks. I have no problem at all with his views, but his rhetoric is tedious and his dismissal of other viewpoints is deliberately obtuse and condescending. Defend that if it appeals to you, but I can think of an infinite number of more deserving causes to join.

Thomas

My combined fifth best team and Everton was a split with five Leicester and five Everton and one tied.
Digne, Godfrey, Richarlison, Calvert-Lewin and Rodriguez all made it.

My combined 6th place team and Everton was 8-3 in our favour with only Coufal, Rice and Soucek representing the Hammers.

In both my combined teams, the weak link for Everton was the midfield area. Carlo brought in two players to that area (one his choice, one not). Interestingly the porous midfield and right-back area were chief concerns last summer, yet it was in these areas where both teams had the advantage over us.

Expand please Conor.

Name the starting line up for both teams.

Jay Wood,

I have explained the reasons (parameters) on other threads but of course any reasoned mind not aware of this would see the word "chokers" on a thread titled "Champions League Final" and might figure out – "Hey! He ain't talking about the winners!"

Wilful ignorance is probably the biggest symptom of lost argument and a monumentally desperate descent. All because you aren't adult enough to admit you have no case – so infantile.

Good tactical game.

Man City still don't have a world-class Plan B striker if Agüero can't do anything. If I was a fan, that's why I would have been resigned to defeat half-way through the game. It's obvious Jesus is nowhere near world-class, just a decent Premier League striker.

Man City just lacked a player like Baggio or Messi or Del Piero who can take the ball around the edge of the box and face goal and slip a player in or just side-step their man and create some space or magic. Yes, they don't grow on trees, but that was all that was missing for City in my personal opinion. Grealish? Kane? They'll be back if Pep's still hungry next season.

As for Chelsea – well deserved. Kante one of the best players in the last decade. Always amazed when managers drop him to the bench for weeks on end. Kai Havertz – outstanding player – great touch at rapid pace and agility. If we could get one outstanding player on the ball when we face low blocks, to break down teams at home, maybe we can also have a crack at City as well next season?

Conor

That's a fair point you make. But Leicester have what we lack: speed. That can make an average player more effective than a more technically adept one. But I do think we erred in adding two new defensive mids last summer when we have a stockpile of such players. The two may be better than the rest but we desperately need more creativity especially as we knew James was unlikely to play every game.

Darren,

So you no longer come on to “learn” from the elder statesmen? Funny that changed suddenly.

Darren @229
I was certain that the link below showed all of your 'gang' awaiting instructions in the Wetherspoons on County Road?

Dazza's Gang pre-match

Actually, having taken a closer look, I think it was Carlo's squad prior to the home game with Fulham.

Barry @199,

In that article you linked, the author says our good start to the season was down to playing 4 centre-backs.

I get Mina and Keane. But Holgate was out injured for the first 7 games and Godfrey didn't join us until after we'd played and won those 4 opening games.

Mina and Keane played with Digne and Coleman flanking them. I've never before seen them described as centre-backs...

The real key factor was James Rodriguez. Who the author of that piece barely mentions. Before he was poleaxed in the nuts by that utter bastard Van Dijk.

Barry @ 226. In your previous post you asked me to 'please stop wasting my time.'

It's probably terribly rude of me to point out that YOU are the one who initiated dialogue between us and YOU are the one who has chosen to continue the exchange in 5 posts now.

Ergo, YOU yourself are opting to 'waste your own time' engaging with me.

And what incited you to address me? My first post in this thread @ 192 in which I quoted 5 posted comments. Two of them single word comments made by you.

That post clearly made some general observations on De Bruyne, City and Guardiola and more detailed comments about Frank Lampard's management history.

You are the sole respondent in the thread to that post, motivated I fancy by your easily bruised vanity at having any offering by you even mildly challenged or questioned.

And what have you offered in response? Your usual arrogance and self-anointed elevation of (unmerited) superiority.

Rather than genuinely engaging in civil debate and showing any capacity to respond to perfectly legitimate comments that challenge your own absolute view, you have played true to form, variously describing me as:

* avoiding inconvenient facts
* being deluded
* blustering
* fragile ego
* displaying wilful ignorance
* being infantile

Look in the mirror of your own posts to me Barry. You will deny what stares back at you, but it is the above bullet list describing yourself, not me.

Kevin # 214. When you say "that horrendous 5-0 thumping. Man City didn't do that to anybody else." Well I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say "Man City didn't do that to anybody else", so let me just recap for you:

Man city 5 - 0 Burnley
Man City 4 - 0 Crystal Palace.
Chelsea 1 - 3 Man City.
West Brom 0 - 5 Man City.
Liverpool 1 - 4 Man City.
Man City 3 - 0 Spurs.
Man City 4 - 1 Wolves.
Man City 5 - 2 Southampton.

Some decent "thumpings" in amongst that lot, including three of the so-called big six teams, wouldn't you say, or is it only a "thumping" because it was Everton?

As Don Alexander rightly pointed out, this is a thread about the Champions League Final, a game, even a competition we were not involved in, yet all some want to do is slag Everton off.

Fucking Pathetic.

Anyway, back to the Champions league final, and the aftermath. I think it's a bit nieve of Mason Mount to hail Chelsea the best team in the world, just because they won, what is after all, only a cup knock out competition. They are not even the best team in England, as I think that accolade belongs to Man City.

On the OP, I thought that the final was exceptional. Guardiola got it wrong overall by trying to make it complex rather than a simpler game that they could well have won but Chelsea played very well with Kante, Mount, James and Rudiger all superb. City didn't bottle it, what a ridiculous statement to use, Chelsea were the better team on the night and City couldn't find their way through. Do all teams who lose do so by bottling it? Was it Zombie football by Chelsea? Who would I take from the Chelsea team? Reece James.

Martin Mason 250

Context is everything City were favourites and they have form for bottling these sort of games as the records show. Do some research and keep your personal comments in check

Martin, I was told a rumour yesterday that Everton are preparing a bid for Callum Hudson-Odoi. Only a rumour though, so probably nothing in it.

Barry @ 244.

The only person you have 'exposed' Barry is yourself.

Every. Single. Time.

Lets have it Basil

Rob, what do you make of the “rumour” ? not sure myself, Hudson-Odoi appears to be one of those slow wingers, not Tommy Tuchel's cup of tea either.

Btw,IMO Barry 244 wins it !

Rob@255 I haven't watched him enough recently to comment but he could just be a very good buy.

Never been a regular for Chelsea, has he Jeff, and funnily enough, I've never really seen him as an out and out winger, one who takes his man on and gets to the by-line before whipping in a dangerous cross. In other words, he's no Dave Thomas!

Ahh Dave Thomas, what could DCL do with a Dave Thomas crossing them in, Latch loved him.

Barry has a point but I think in this case he's not giving due credit to Tuchel. Also earlier comments by Jeff about the obviously badly injured KDB set the wrong tone for the bottling argument. In Barry's defence I would say relative to their talents PSG and City have under performed in this tournament over the last several years. City have had some surprising losses eg Lyon, Spurs. Now whether that was because they're bottlers is a hard case to argue given their success in other tournaments

Kieran,
fair enough on my KDB comments, at the time I was thinking a Roy Keane, Terry Butcher type captain, might have got up, shook his head and lead by example.
different times now, so there you go, apologies to KDB, ( no one on here)
Hope he's ok for the Euros.

Rob
I meant they didn't hammer anyone in the run up to the final, I think when my post was tidied up the sense of last few games may have been lost. This is an Everton website so I will make no apology for commenting on Everton as well as city in this thread. If you look at the stream of the thread it had moved in part to whether Darren was justified in having a pop at Carlo. You seem to look very poorly at people not providing what you regard as proper support to Everton. Whilst we both want what is best for Everton, we differ markedly on how we get there. Nothing 'pathetic' about sounding the alarm about our form this season, it's been dreadful and analysing who is responsible for that. I thought when we appointed Carlo we were getting a world class coach who would improve the players significantly. 18. months in, and the football is worse than it's been in aeons. The parallels with Mourinho's spurs are clear.
A great manager on the way down no longer able to deliver the goods.We can't pass the ball forwards. That may not alarm you, but it does me. And that has implications for next year. Maybe you're right to question I suppose what is the point in complaining. insofar as none of us can affect the outcome. But it feels like we're at the same point of Martinez at end of season 2. it doesn't feel as though it's going to end well. We're going in the wrong direction in fact. Loads of old players, and we're giving a manager alot more backing. We'll see.

Rob @ 237, spot on. One poster came on what is a Champions League thread and admitted that he didn't even watch the final. Then he tried to pivot the discussion away to slagging our manager. That level of obsession is disturbing.

Dazza (#197 and ad nauseam on every thread) the reason people describe you as "comedy gold" is in no way a personal affront. You make us laugh! Be proud of it.

Trust me, it's solely because you portray yourself as a conceited, confrontational dipstick determined to consistently undermine the character of any and every other TW personality merely because, in your opinion, they have a different point of view to yours.

TW depends on different points of view by the way. Being a Toffee demands we stick together despite differing opinions too.

I thought it was a decent thread and then ToffeeWeb did, what it's currently doing best, and that is a real shame because it's becoming a bit mundane.

Barry, if I could have had a thousand pound bet that you would come on calling City chokers, I'd have made myself a few quid mate, but unless ToffeeWeb gets a resident bookies, it will never be proven as fact!

Martin M, I think your description of the game was very good mate, because I also didn't think City choked, I just thought Chelsea strangled them. Seriously though Martin, I'd take any of that Chelsea team, subs included!

Rob 237

You've put the cart before the horse. Nobody was slagging off Carlo until people used the thread to apologise for his poor season and denigrate the players.

For every criticism of Carlo there are hundreds blaming the players for his abject show this season. For every time I see him criticised once, I see a dozen people quite literally dive in to apologise.

Anyone who thinks his performance last season was in any way acceptable is suffering from Kenwright syndrome. He/she has had his/her expectations managed for so long I fear there may be no way back for some.

I have seen Carlo supporters slag off other managers of clubs like Leeds, West Ham and Arsenal all season. Yet every fucking one of them finished above us playing better football....And he had the nerve to tell us we had had a good season ?

Kenwright may not be pulling the strings anymore but by fuck the he's left a legacy. Expectation doesnt even need to be managed anymore. We are just grateful and blessed to be managed by a manager who has repeatedly treated us to Sunday league football.

This club will never be a force again until everyone associated with it rids themselves of this pathetically low bar.

If people want to to see Carlo criticism abated they will not do it by shouting it down. If they are going to continue with this relentless apologetic pap blaming everyone else for his short comings, They will always draw a response. Whether it be a CL final thread or not

It was / is a good thread bar the odd left of flank manoeuvre. They happen!

Tuchel played a tactical masterclass based on what he had at his disposal and what he knew the opposition had at theirs.

And he done it to good effect.

Respect the opposition strengths but know your own.

Tony@268 Sorry Tony, I was just being picky saying if I had the choice just now based on Saturday it'd be Reece James but of course it'd be any of them.

I have to agree with Tony and others
I don't think City chocked. I think Chelsea out thought and outfought them.
Mind you I think Peps starting 11 definitely played in to Teuchels plan big time
Still can't understand that starting team?
Saying all that it's still hard to criticise City and Pep. What would we be like even having a quarter of their success over the last 10 years or so!!

That sentence about Bill Kenwright, is very apt imo Darren, but the only problem is, is that the legacy maker is still our chairman, and that concerns me a hell of a lot more, than having Carlo Ancellotti as our manager does mate.

John, we would probably be calling them choking baskets, for failing to win the champions league, because It's genuinely ust the way most football fans think.

Rob H #243 certainly not you, mate!

I don't like swearing on a Bank Holiday morning but the legacy point is very fucking valid.

My poor brother's generation has only ever know Moyes and Kenwright so seems to accept mediocracy as success having had his expectation played down throughout his Everton supporting life.

My son fortunately (or unfortunately depending on your view) has had to listen to me ramble, reminisce and talk of what it is like to see a winning Everton team. And winning football teams.

I've said many times, I don't necessarily hold the hostility that many have towards Kenwright. I liken him to Moyes in both overstaying their tenure which has impacted us. But Moshiri has still continued to allow him to influence, and this needs to be stamped out. If you want an emotional Evertonian to advise you, give me the job!

Take control Farhad and get rid of the nostalgic nonsense that is holding us back. Take ownership and take the emotion out of it. If I know and read my history, John Moores didn't factor emotion into the equation.

Thanks. I'm supposed to be trying to relax!!! But then when have Everton ever allowed me to relax?

Darren, my post @ 237 was a post in reply to Kevin @ 214 to merely point out that Man City had given “Thumpings” to other teams this season, not just Everton. Kevin has explained, though I still don't see the gist of his post, when he says “In the lead up to the final”. Maybe someone can put me right?

Regards turning the CL Final thread into a slagging off Everton thread and calling it fucking pathetic, that was not aimed at anyone in particular, as I don't know who was the first person to bring Everton or Carlo into the thread, I very rarely scroll back through a thread and read every post. Wasn't you was it???

I think you are well aware by now that I'm in support of Carlo. He inherited shit, no two ways to describe it. Everywhere he's been he's inherited a quality squad, with only a little tweak here and there required. With us, it's not a little tweak, it's a full blown major overhaul. I'm sure you are also very aware that I want nothing but the best for our club, and if that means taking another couple of summer (Not Winter) transfer windows to put right, then so be it, I'm prepared to put up with Carlo. We got stability under Moyes, but once he left it's slowly gone the other way, bar one decent season under Martinez. This chopping and changing of managers is going to get us absolutely nowhere. I'm really surprised that people cannot understand this. We get a new manager and people demand instant success. It took Ferguson at Man Utd and klopp a few years to win their first trophy! Thomas Tuchel done well winning the CL in his first half season with Chelsea, but look at the squad he inherited.

I've certainly not been pleased with some of our performances this season. Good job we've got four TV's in our house because I've really been tempted to throw a can of Stella at the one I've been watching our games on. I've been baffled by some team selections, substitutions etc, but name me just one person who hasn't? Winning eleven away games, including wins at Spurs, Liverpool, Leicester, Arsenal doesn't constitute a good season, but it certainly doesn't constitute a bad season either.

Any debates on whether Carlo stays or goes I try and steer clear of. I may post one piece in defence of him, but that's about it, because, do you know what, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference what anyone on here says, unless a planned protest and march is organised and all the Carlo haters descend on Goodison and demand his sacking. I respect everyone's opionion on Carlo, yours included, and I've never knocked anyone's opinion, but that's not to say I agree with it either. I still think Carlo will come good and will be in charge for our first game at BMD.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for that pint you promised me at that working mans club outside Stamford Bridge!!

City didn't choke, they were set (not deliberately I'm sure) up to fail by their coach, who has a reputation for both over thinking and tinkering.
He played a Combination of 10 out field players, he had never picked over all the season. He left out both Rodri and
Fernandinho and had nobody defensively minded to do what Kante ended up doing, to such good effect for Chelsea.

It might have worked Vs a lesser team, but full credit to Tuchel and Chelsea, they put in a near faultless performance.

And was anybody too surprised to see Stones get dragged out of position? No, me neither, but it probably wasn't all his fault.
The 2 of them were isolated with too much space infront of them...Rodri, Rodri, where for art thou Rohdi - sat on the bench.

Foden though, 'robbed' of a goal by one of the best block/tackles you'll ever see.