‘Back to normal’ will simply not suffice: the Super League 12 need to be punished

Jonathan is right.

Going back to normal is an admittance of defeat and an acceptance of subordination. It must not happen.

The time to make binding changes is now, fail on this and all is lost.

Make no mistake, these avaricious predators are still stalking and are still hungry to strengthen their protectionist position.

Only unequivocal binding changes that curtail unfair competition will be acceptable. ALL who criticised this ‘‘greedy six’’ cartel need to back these changes and force them through no matter what obstacles they may face.

A European ban next season would be enough.

A five year European ban and £50M fine. The European ban alone could easily cost each club about £35M - £40M per season, so there's at least £175M - £200M over five seasons. So in effect they could lose £250M. Seems fair enough to me!

That last paragraph should be the lead. If only F1 racing were more sexy or if maybe yachting had better viewership could we get rid of these charlatans who feign some feeling for football.

Fines are no good for these people, who are drowning in money anyway. Points deductions and European bans are the only meaningful sanctions. Journalists are saying that these would hurt the blameless fans but so what? They’ve had years of success and trophies so they would just have to suck it up.

'I want to see them all handed severe punishments' I heard myself say last night in a discussion as to what is to happen next, and then had to laugh at the fact I was hardly an unbiased observer to the whole thing.

A sincere and genuine question:

We have a situation where rebel clubs indicated an intention to do something, but then didn't do it. In that case, what sanctions will the Premier League be allowed to impose, within the terms of the agreement that all clubs presumably sign up to when they join the league?

Is there a rule that prevents member clubs from discussing something that, in the end, they don't do?

Simon,

These clubs were in discussion for 3 years; they all agreed to set up this league and paid JP Morgan to set it up. They made an announcement on Sunday that this new league would start asap. So they did set it up and, because of fan power, pulled out – but they had gone ahead with their plans... just didn't have the belief to carry them out.

A bit like saying why was Guy Fawkes guilty of treason? He didn't actually blow anything up; he was just sitting there and somehow was surrounded by kegs of gunpowder.

This may have already been said elsewhere, but Florentino Perez says that every one of the 12 clubs signed a contract, and all contracts were legally binding. So have our Septic Six broken their contracts by pulling out, or is it one of those that gives you time to reconsider your agreement?

Or have they "pulled out" knowing full well this league will go ahead. Wait untill 24hours before the new league starts and announce they are playing in it. To try and avoid the fan backlash.

I think I posted this on the wrong page originally as I am so in favour of these scoundrels being flogged.

There needs to be severe punishment. if Everton had been part of a 'Big Seven', I'd say the same. I've heard that there is a reluctance by the FA to punish the fans, players and managers. That is wrong.

Fans, players and managers were never involved in the 'crimes of the owners' when Rangers were demoted to the bottom of the Scottish league. Nor were the fans involved when points were deducted from the likes of Wigan, Bury and Birmingham for financial misdemeanours committed by the owners. Again, the fans of these clubs all suffered.

It was the owners who committed the offences, but punishment was meted to all the innocents within that club. That is how it works. This should be no different just because they are 'The Big Six'. That is so unfair and shows inequity again to the small and unimportant.

According to the Real Madrid president this morning, this planning has been going on for three years. Three years! He also bleats the project is not over.

The penalties should be severe and swiftly administrated. Failure to do so will mean the insidious six will rise again.

They must be punished.

Thanks, Brian (#8),

I like the Guy Fawkes analogy (made me laugh) but it could be argued that he was in a situation of committing a crime.

I am presuming that contract law would apply to the rebel clubs' arrangement with the Premier League and contract law works differently to criminal law. Having said that, I can see that simply signing up to the ESL might be a breach of the contract between the clubs and the Premier League. It would then be down to what sanctions the contract would allow.

Peter,

There's an "utmost good faith" clause in the Premier League rules. Leeds United, albeit EFL, were fined over Spygate even though there were no specific rules about not spying. They were found guilty under EFL reg 3.4 s.2.

The foreword of the Premier League Chairman's Charter has "To conduct our respective Club's dealings with the utmost good faith and honesty."

The first point of the charter is "Behave with the utmost good faith and honesty to each other, do not unjustly criticise or disparage one another and maintain confidences."

The Premier League rules handbook has Section B clause 8.16: "In all matters and transactions relating to the League, each Club shall behave towards each other Club and the League with the utmost good faith."

Clause 8.17 says "commit any act (or omission) or make any statement that brings the League, its competition, a Club, a Broadcaster or a party to a Commercial Contract into disrepute."

Unfortunately a club can only be expelled with a ¾ majority vote. Whether that majority is from the 20 or only the 14 is one for the lawyers. I doubt it was in their comprehension that they may need to deal with multiple clubs being subject to the same rule breach and censure.

If the Shiter League contracts are legally binding and JP Morgan decide to sue, these clubs could be very much between a rock and a hard place. At least, if the rest of the football world wasn't as soft as shite!

Dennis Stevens - no doubt the clubs who are trying to get out are negotiating going away money with the likes of JP Morgan right now. Although there are contracts and other things that have been signed, the important thing to remember is there is no will to go forward with this thing right now. As such, all the agreements and contracts are incredibly easy to unwind.

It's in everybody in the cartel's interests – and their advisers – for this thing to disappear as quickly as possible.

I read somewhere that each club had to pay an £8M deposit each and Perez is sitting on it as Chairman or President. I hope this is true and he tells them all to fuck off.

He's also said he knows where all the bodies are buried. This falangist nutter could blow the whole lot of them up. Let's hope he does.

I'd go for a one-season ban from all European competitions. A 15-point deduction next season. The removal of any ‘scummy six' representatives from any governing body for 3 years, and the appointment of an independent regulator who will have the final say about the running of the Premier League.

Not too severe but severe enough to keep them under control for a few years. The lack of decision-making power will hurt them the most.

Reading what Perez said, was just sickening. I'm 74, and I've been “involved in football for 20 years” and it's not as if we've killed anyone.

Some people find words to make things feel even more sickening, and Perez is definitely a man in this bracket. There's no way in the world he's going to stop now unless someone comes down very hard on him.

The grovelling apologies issued by the Super League 6 were simply tactical as they had underestimated the negative reaction to their plans - that were also weakened by the (probably unexpected) decision of the German clubs not to get involved.
However I share Tony’s

Concerns that the latest comments from
Florez that this project - or something similar - has only been parked, do ring true.
My guess is that, for all the noise made, UEFA & FIFA will do nothing. For this reason the UK football authorities need to impose serious sanctions on our 6 clubs - and do it quickly. The minor slap on the wrist that many of us fear simply won’t do.

I'm surprised it's taken this long. The "too big to fail" business model had been taken to it's limit by the pandemic, I thought. Perez's behaviour has starkly demonstrated how wrong I was.

I actually don't want any sanctions on the clubs involved... if – and it's a large lass of an 'if' – there was legislative change so supporters have "golden share" veto rights on matters of club governance.

The clearest truth is quite simply the twelve fuckers running these clubs cannot and ought not to be trusted. And across football they are likely to have many unknown fellow travellers. It's time to give fans an input, even if only to protect owners from their own stupidity.

It was oversight through fan ownership that prevented the Germans making gobshites of themselves here. Some sort of adapted model that gave fans similar input is what's needed across all the UEFA territories.

Sanctions against the 6 must be reasonable and defendable. They must also be strong enough to deter any club from considering this course of action in the future. So maximum penalty for breach of rule L9 and a UEFA ban for 2 seasons.

It’s being reported that there is an £8M penalty clause for exiting the ESL early..

Oops!

UEFA President Aleksander Ceferin has confirmed UEFA will meet next week to decide what actions to take against the 12 sides for their attempted departure.

"We will see what happens next week. We have a meeting tomorrow morning, but if within 24 hours after the congress so much has happened, I expect a lot more to happen by Friday," he said in an interview with 24UR in his native Slovenia.

"Anyone who says he is completely calm in this situation is not telling the truth. The situation is very complicated and not complicated for UEFA. We have on our side 235 of 247 clubs. well, we had them, and now we have 244. They are all with us.

"Yesterday I received text messages of support from practically all clubs in Europe. So now we expect everyone to realise their mistake and suffer the corresponding consequences We will talk about this next week. "

Ceferin also hinted that there was a reluctance among a number of the founding members to sign up for the European Super League in the first place, revealing representatives from five of the sides involved had called him to apologise following the initial launch.

And he admitted that UEFA would take into considering the fact that the six Premier League clubs pulled out of the project when deciding on potential punishments.

"I got calls from five clubs out of those 12," he revealed. "They all apologised to me that they were sorry, but that they had to sign it. Because if they didn't, they would have dropped out of that league and so on.

"The doors of UEFA are open, and at the same time everyone will have to suffer the consequences for their actions.

"The fact is that if any club wants to play in our competition, he will have to approach us and we will have to arrange the things that happened now.

"But I do not want to go into details, as we are still negotiating with the legal team, but I would say that it is a very good decision of English clubs and that we will also take into account that they admitted their mistake, that they understand that they did wrong. We all make mistakes.

"They know exactly that they made a mistake, they called me and I respect that. You have to be big to admit a mistake and that's why I have more respect for these clubs than for those who insist on something they say doesn't exist. It's actually relatively funny."

I expect that UEFA has seen a way of making a few bob from the Dirty Dozen's transgressions and will fine them a few thousand Euro's and in return, UEFA will likely amend the 'Revamped' Champions League format and due to the likely fines, the Premier League and FA will say the transgressors have been punished enough so there's no need to further compound their misery.

Colin # 16 & Chris # 21. £8M is Fuck all to these clubs. Man city could pay that for all the six English clubs and wouldn't miss it. Be like any one on here dropping a £1 coin on the floor and saying "can't be arsed picking it up. It's only a £1 coin"!

Derek would catch it before it hit the floor Rob 😁😁

Even with his bad back, Thomas? 😄😄

If it meant adding a nicker to the collection Rob.
😁😁

Rob, On Radio Merseyside last night James Corbett stated it was €8m ( an even smaller sum! ) and that some/all of that might be repaid to the 12 clubs!
Either way it is, as you say, a nominal amount.

Yes, but self inflicted. I take some comfort in that Rob. It should have no impact on whatever else is done to them. It’s contractual

If that’s the punishment (8m€) they may as well not bother, what kind of deterrent is that?

It’s an insult to the clubs who would have been affected by this cartel.

£8m is a load of balls.

No so fast you see:
"It isn't fair that in England six are losing and 14 winning, that big clubs in Spain are losing money and the small clubs are earning money. Football is a pyramid. If there is money at the top, then the money flows down and everyone gets some."
-Francisco 'the pauper' Perez

So if you would believe Francisco 8m is a crushing weight that is so disproportionate that it implies you killled someone.

Now this is getting a bit rich. The whole gaslighting routine is due for some flames. When it starts getting this sociopathic there really isn't much grey area. It is approaching zero sum game territory and this dude is more than whispering "scorched earth".

I don’t think that the authorities have any choice but to punish these fuckers, if rules have been broken, because of past severe punishments of ‘lower’ clubs like Leeds. Given the publicity, it would be highly embarrassing and openly suspicious if rigorous penalties sufficient to be a deterrent and SEEN to be so weren’t imposed. Consistency and precedent, plus established practice, indicate (to me, anyway) a likelihood of punishment.

There has to be severe penalties for them all. No consideration or care for fans of the 14 was ever shown, no matter how many bleating insincere apologies are made.

Do you honestly think that Fenway (baseball), Kroenke (NBA and ice hockey) and the Glazers (NFL) would have ever tried to force a league in their respective sports to have the top teams be guaranteed a play-off place each year with everyone else taking their chances? I don't think so!!

If they, as they say, care about the “well-being” of football, let the huge (and I mean huge) fines be split between the lower leagues and grassroots teams.

Rob@3, let’s hope that’s the minimum and these clubs get and they are stripped of any participation and responsibilities in their respective football leagues and by UEFA, and severed for life from any contract management on behalf of any football body.

Let’s see what comes out this side of the weekend from UEFA, the FA and EPL.

Banishment, for 7, years, from all tournaments..Here’s to hoping.

Not sure if this is the precursor of the first major economic crisis in football: we’ve all seen the boom and bust cycles that result from unsustainable financial arrangements in banking, and this looks like the point the Spanish clubs may well implode.
The next time the billionaires seek to enrich their portfolios they will be much better equipped and slicker than this effort, which I feel was just a Trumpesque move in which to introduce a shocking offer as a negotiating weapon; the ‘what the fuck’ righteous indignation reaction from all corners was almost certainly predictable: make no mistake they will be back.
Punishments will have to be carefully decided upon as too punitive will only increase their fairly obvious desperation, strengthening their resolve to leave and hasten the next plot. A player embargo and a European ban sounds like a good place to start but I don’t think it is going to be easy to drag these clubs in line: are the likes of Real Madrid and Barcelona too big to fail?
UEFA will huff and puff but they know all their posturing will only go so far: sounds to me like uefa demanding ‘I didn’t get a harrumph out’a that guy’.
I would love to think clubs could somehow engineer a move to a more egalitarian model of ownership, as in Germany, but that could only be built out of the ruins of the premier league, so only when the carcass has been stripped to the bone when the profit motivation of the billionaires has been truly and inexorably lost.

Jonathan Liew is correct in that if these 6 are allowed to carry on as if nothing happened then we are only denying the inevitable for a year at most. The narrative from certain journalists and quite a few pundits is you cant deduct points or impose a European ban because it will hurt the fans the players and the managers of these clubs, who have all said they are against it. Well how come we didnt hear these same arguments when clubs were deducted points or were demoted when their owners transgressed financial rules.

So I think if we are to see proper sanctions metered out to these clubs then it seems its now up to the innocent 14 clubs and their supporters to demonstrate more loudly and in greater numbers than the protests from the fans of the 6 clubs. If we stand idlily by and let these clubs carry on as normal then we are even more guilty than the owners of the sceptic 6. As Perez has stated this isn't over he said they will just have to come back with a new format that is more acceptable. Yesterday Klopp said its now time to stop the talking, he also went on to say that yes his owners made a mistake, but he says they are not bad people and he would rather stay with them than get new owners. Every time I hear someone say yes the owners need punishing they never ever tell you how that would come about.

Look clubs have now become tribalistic which is highlighted that the Chelsea fans want Bruce Buck removed from being chairman, but its Abramovich who made this decision not Buck. But it looks like something is being done if Buck is removed. Does anyone really believe removing some of these executives from decision making organisations is going to make any difference, absolutely not. I think Farhad is the only owner who from the off said the only way to deal with this is a points reduction, but so far he has remained a lone voice. And as the days go by and no action is taken the 6 involved will have thought well it was worth the aggravation as we know the fans werent against setting up this league, they were more upset there was no promotion and relegation so fix that and we can all join the Spanish clubs who are still part of the process.

As much as we’d all like to see the severest punishment handed out to the septic six, particularly the ring leaders from the premier league, the RS and Man Utd, we don’t want anything too severe that could have a major impact on BMD. What would people on here rather have, all six with points deduction, banned from Europe for a minimum five years, even relegation (which will never happen), or BMD? If a points deduction and European ban has no impact on BMD then I’m all for it. I’m only assuming the TV money would be affected if the six were expelled from the premier league, or relegated (Neither will happen anyway).

How about the 14 issuing a statement that unless an appropriate punishment is meted out to the 6 they refuse to play them until they are punished in a proper manner.

As for journalists crying that any ban for the 6 will only hit the fans, they didn't give a toss about the fans of innocent clubs being banned because of the shite and their woodlice supporters at Heysel. And Everton suffered more than most the bloody team broke up the manager went abroad because of the ban. My hope is that they ALL get ripped up for arse paper and Anfield becomes the National Dogshit Museum.

Rob 37

Rob I am afraid that you are doing what the fans of the septic 6 are doing, you want punishment but only if it doesn't effect our club, they are the same criticize their owners but don't dare impose a ban or a points deduction. So if we don't impose any restrictions tell me how this will deter them carrying out these plans at a later date. Some may argue and Rob you may agree with the argument that if we do punish them then that might speed up them wanting to leave, and the argument to their fans will be well we either accept the sanctions or move to the ESL.
And that scenario could play out if you carry out sanctions, but if you don't then I believe they will leave anyway.

I agree about would we still be able to finance BMD with greatly reduced income as I am sure SKY would automatically want to renegotiate the deal with the remaining clubs. And we have been told that fans gate money is relatively no importance to the overall financial structure of clubs, its all financed by TV money and sponsors and without the top clubs that would be decimated.

Rob @37
I'd let the rest of this season play out to its conclusion and at the end of it whatever order the Pig Six ended the season I would then place them in 12th to 17th place in the table. A one-off punishment for one season where those clubs that they have tried to shaft gain an advantage for one season only but enough to act as a warning that their behaviour will not be tolerated never mind rewarded.

It won't happen because it'll be fines and suspended punishments from all of the various bodies I also think that UEFA have been quite cute by putting the onus on the individual FA's and Leagues to sort out a punishment.

The 14 are not in favour of any punishment that hurts the fans. I don't think our own FA has the balls to deduct points or fine the clubs.

However we can hope that UEFA do ban them for a year. Its a hard ask given the clout the likes of Utd, Barca and Real have.

Time will tell but l'm not optimistic. If we can get into the CL by hook or by crook it would reset things in our league just a little.

At the moment, they remain in breach of L9 as they have still (according to Perez) valid contracts. You cannot back out of a legal undertaking by Tweet.

In any event, they must be dissuaded from waiting a couple of years and dusting it off to try again.

Now things are calming, it seems the FA is not keen on punishing a club because that also punishes the fans, but that notion makes clubs invincible as that could apply to anything - FFP, ineligible player in cups etc.

I see Paul the Esk has a piece in the Observer today, where a fan from each Prem club is invited to give their opinion on the greedy 6 and the question of penalties. Paul is in favour of relegating them to the Championship.

Maybe Paul has covered this elsewhere but...

...Tossing teams out of the Premier League, for example, is surely fraught with problems involved in appeals and timing (and sufficient voting power of the non-6???).

Imaging a decision to throw the greedy 6 out of the Premier league - a decision taking us to, say, end of May?; with an internal appeal lodged within, say, 4 weeks - so, the end of June? and the internal appeal heard within, say, 4 weeks - so, the end of July? that internal appeal lost, so further appeal to the courts of the land - so, say, end of August? external appeal heard September etc etc. So we're into next season, with presumably 6 having been promoted from the Championship instead of the usual 3 (and assuming Sheffield Utd, WBA (?) and Fulham (?) are not relegated).

Imagine the greedy clubs eventually winning the external appeal. When you've already promoted (and provided money to) 6 instead of 3 from the Championship. When they have already played teams in the Premier League and points distributed; when you have to void those games and points, and have to arrange for the greedy 6 to now play the games instead; etc etc.

How do you undo all of that?

Collymore in the Mirror today makes a lot of sense. His proposals include:

1) A 3-5 year transfer ban which would level the playing field over time.
2) The removal of the Scum 6 from all decision making bodies in the premier league.
3) 50+1 model as used in Germany to prevent these aggressive takeovers of clubs by nation states or hedge funds.

I’d add an additional ban from European football for all those involved from 1 year (prem teams who left early), 2 years for Atleti, Inter and Milan and a 3 to 5 year ban for the remaining rebels - Madrid, Barca and Juventus. That would be a decision for Uefa but, my god, they’d never try this again.

Relegating the 6 to the championship is a total non started. Actually if that happened then it would give them all they needed to go off and start the super league. It would kill 3 of the teams for a start being out of the prem for 2 seasons.

Real and Barca need the super league to bail them out. Perhaps they might try a league that is something like the club world cup if they can sell that idea as a ban from europe would not help them given the positions they are in.

It clearly hasn't and isn't going away. My suspicion is this now becomes a power struggle about who controls it and the compromises made to dress it up as something else that is the same concept in all but name.

Already this morning we hear consolatory rhetoric from UEFA towards the English 6 for their early stand down. UEFA deliberately targeted them as they knew that was where the potential weak link was in the 12.

This is happening in some form. Maybe toned down now from a complete breakaway franchise, but there will be a Super League. It's just about who controls it.

How can you talk of an ESL when the whole thing has just gone down in flames? Without them (dirty dozen) being in their domestic leagues they will slowly wither and die!

They need us more than we need them. And as for bans, English football survived a 5 year ban (thanks rs). Clubs like Juventus, Rangers, Marseilles etc... have survived relegation, points deduction, huge fines etc... and have been able to bounce back.

We have been conditioned for far too long to continue to hang on to their coattails in fear of being abandoned by their paternal status. They are not doing us a favour, we are doing them a fucking favour by not expelling them from domestic and European competitions. It’s time to grow a pair and start taking ourselves seriously.

One good thing about all this is that I'm no longer an " aul arse".
When pubs were open I'd drink bitter rather than the Europiss the youngsters prefer. I drink Scotch or Irish not "shots" of vodka or tequila.
Guess I'm a Legacy drinker 🤗

If the punishment is heavy, we might just find a change of stance from certain clubs and their fans, which might just mean, that football no longer belongs to the fans, if that makes any sense.

Fans of the 14 “pauper clubs” need to throw off their inferiority complex and tell the scumbag 6, and their media acolytes that, “we are as mad as hell and we’re not taking this anymore”!!

Let’s see who finch’s first.