A tad premature Mick to say it is truly dead. When we were being pressed at times against Birmingham, and previously against Tottenham, there was a little bit of the hoof.

What I will agree with is we seem to have a more mixed style. Which is a positive. I got a little bit pissed off that whenever we score direct from a long ball, it's described in the various media as "X controlled a hopeful punt, and finished well" (look at Saha's second against Chelsea). Yet whenever one of the Sky Darlings do it (Liverpool and Chelsea are prime exponents of this), it's "a wonderful long pass to...."

People who recall the 85 Championship team may recall that we were a very direct side - straight at them from kick off. But, boy they could pass as well. And tackle. The 87 side was good, efficient, but somehow not as entertaining.

Even in the "modern game" (whatever that is), I think you need to be able to mix it up according to how the game is going, who you are playing, and how both sides are playing.

Me thinks we're trying to walk the ball in at times.

The new Arsenal ?

Watched R/S v Manure on sunday and i was suprised by the amount of long balls played to Rooney as Matt said you need to be able to mix it up.
But i agree Mick we are passing the ball better, a lot of that is better players certainly in the midfield and last seasons exponants of the hoof ball Hibbo & Yobo are currently out of the side , i know Jags can hoof it but if those around you are passing it can have an influence.

A bit early to claim the school of science has been reconvened.
Moyse was screaming at Jags to shorten it up through out the first half on Saturday, Hibbert, Neville, Yobo and Distin are all guilty of defending too deep.
Thats when I dont get Moyse, he likes or at least tolerates defenders seeking the security defending deep, yet he berates them for hoofing it .
Only when Moyse realises that a low back line = hoofball, will we completely snuff it out. Tim Howard has to play a part here, he has to bully his defence into play higher up the park.


You are right though Mick, things are improving. not many sides are playing better stuff than us.

When people around the country realise Everton are the Sky Sunday match, they are quite pleased these days, its not so long ago when the only people who were happy we were on, were the people involved in the antiques road show, we did wonders for their ratings

I can still only see Johnny Heitinga able to take the ball from defence and look for a pass rather than a hoof when he tracks back and demands the ball, the defence could well take his lead and look to play the ball out through the midfield a few times.

We have a way to go before we become the "next Arsenal" but one thing we possess which the Gunners don't is is steel in defence and IMO we should aspire to improve along those complementary lines. Don't sacrifice the "hard" (but not dirty) element whilst refining the subtler arts. All the best teams are constructed on those lines, except maybe Barca but then they are in a league of their own when it comes to sheer skill.

Mixing it up is OK as an alternative to short passing and when Fellaini is back we will have another midfielder willing to carry the ball forward.....I reckon Rodwell will be the same as he matures....Man Utd now have the long ball option due to Rooneys strength in being able to hold the ball up and then hit great cross balls to Valencia....but their real strength is in the way the midfielders and full backs move quickly to support Rooney.
We have quite a 'steely defence' and we just need to develop fluidity in the teams movement off the ball, then we will have a team that can win things.

The good football will continue only while Arteta and Pienaar stay fit.
All the problems we had at the start of the season were not due to the amount of injuries we had but because Arteta was out and then Pienaar got injured. These are the two players that make Everton's midfield tick.

Great sides should be able to play both ways, sometimes the long ball can be effective if the players we have can do it well and the oppositions defence struggles with balls in the air. It basically comes down to the players we have available and the opposition we are playing and individuals understanding when it is appropriate to play one way or another.

You must have watched a different game from me pal. Yes, we played football once we'd gone ahead against 10 men but for the majority at 0-0 it was garbage again, hoof after hoof. There is no commitment to playing football at this club, that much is obvious. We integrate better players who can do it for themselves but there is clearly no coaching commitment to it, hence why we panic so easily when pressed and start smashing it long. It was a poor, poor display and you are only setting yourself up for more disappointment if you think that was a display of a passing side.

Neil Steele is the "new" Tony Marsh.

Only difference, Neil is sort and to the point.

Read this quote in the Arsnal magazine the other day from one of their journos: "Seen Everton 7 or 8 times this season and there are few teams I'd rather watch right now."

Arsenal's weakness is they only know one way; we, on the other hand, know both the long ball and the newly found passing game... surely this means we are more adaptable than Arsenal?

Pienaar is key, we need a pacy wide player this summer and that's all for me. Bring back Donovan. Pacey wide player means balance and also means we won't be utterly fucked if Pienaar gets injured and then we have to play Osman on the flank.

Kinda sums it up really Paul; People who watch highlights and don't actually know what they are on about think we are doing great. People who watch us home and away - having witnessed just 3 league away wins all season, none of which were remotely convincing - can see that we are still absolutely miles away.

It's not about being negative, it's about being realistic. I want us to GENUINELY compete for top 4 and have a realistic chance of winning the Europa League, not just qualify for it and then embarrass ourselves against the first half decent side we face as we always do.

Too much backslapping at rank mediocrity goes on amongst Evertonians it seems, it's just not for me.

The Bolton display was woeful, we got the points, the end. I'll take the points for sure but I won;t delude myself that we will ever get anywhere performing like that though, because we wont.

I must admit to being sick to death of the negativity on this board. We have recovered from as bad an injury crisis as any club could have, we are producing very good results (2-0 aginst Bolton is good) we have beat United and Chelsea and showed what a great team we can be and yet still we have mindless criticism. Go and watch Bolton, Wigan, Blackburn or Burnley and see genuine crap week in and week out but don't confuse Everton with that. Give me supporters not moronic whiners. Everton can be the best of the rest, what else can we realistically be? Next year we could be not only best of the rest but genuinely the best with a couple of good buys and no major injuries

Martin, "mindless criticism"?? I tell you what my "mindless criticism" is, shall I? It's the fact that this season has been a complete waste.

We have got knocked out of the FA Cup by crap opposition through not applying ourselves properly, we got knocked out of Europa by crap opposition because our manager hasn't got the first clue how to set a side up to compete in Europe, and we are adrift of our direct rivals Spurs and Aston Villa in the league because we have thrown away a hatful of points against poor opposition. Explain to me which of those criticisms are "mindless".

And, before you get the 'injuries' excuse out, do me a favour; Go and look at the line-ups against Burnley (A), Wolves (H), Stoke (H), Birmingham (H), Fulham (A), Hull (A), Bolton (A)... and tell me why in your opinion we weren't good enough to win those games, injuries or not.

I put it that the team was plenty good enough to win those games but a poor attitude and poor tactics cost us dearly, and putting them in context now, have cost us our season. Yet at the time, the manager was happy to hide behind the excuse of injuries. I was at the games, they still hurt me now. The performances were dire, completely unacceptable.

Each to their own of course but IMO winners remain focussed and winners retain their desire at all times.

Making excuses will get us nowhere, we need to see where we have gone wrong and put it right. There has been a really poor attitude at this club this season where, when things go wrong, we reach for the excuse manual and it's simply not good enough.

We have wasted a season and now it seems people are backslapping because we are finally getting results we absolutely SHOULD be getting. "2-0 against Bolton is good", you say.... Well, no. It's acceptable to me, nothing more. Look at the team we put out compared to theirs and it's what you should absolutely expect.

The difference between me and you, because I am still hurt from our overall failure, is that instead of just looking at the result I look at the display and in truth it was very poor.

Unless we want another season like this one, full of abject surrender and disappointment when it really matters, then I really don't see how sweeping poor performances under the carpet helps, even in victory.

It offends me when people call me 'negative' because I am not, I am simply determined and ambitious. I could as easily call everyone who is being 'positive' a bunch of losers, because they take a pride in failure that I simply cannot.

It's funny that if Moyes has always wanted us to play football, why has it taken 7yrs to do so?

Excellent points Neil Steele. Spot on. "Too much backslapping at rank mediocrity" — Nail on Head!

Although I thought on Saturday we did actually try to play football, scored two superb quality goals, and should perhaps have had at least two more but for extremely dogged defending. It was a professional, ground out result in the end. Could've been better? Yes, of course.

But I only remember a few hoofs early on. Distin, one of the worst offenders, was actually playing it forward mostly on the ground... and even getting forward himself on the odd occasion.

It has been a mostly dreadful season in my book, apart from the obvious hilights. A final flourish for the run-in will mask that, of course, but the lack of a real winning attitude from the top down tends only to confirm our own "small club" mentality.

Next season has all the makings of a tremendous opportunity for Moyes and Everton Football Club; but without that wining mentality it could all be for nought yet again.

Ah the old abject surrender mantra. Its funny how the same old cliches keep reappearing. Come on guys lets try to be original. Additionally, just to remind a few people on here. In terms of finance we are now a mediocre club and do not have the clout to compete with the real big boys in the transfer market. This should not stop us from trying to have a good footballing ethic, but coming from somebody who has seen us win trophies in a different era I havent got my head in the clouds and think that we have a devine right to win trophies just because of our history.

We are trying to compete in an uneven playing field, but recently there has been some evidence that we are finally making progress. I am not going to stick the boot into Moyes just now and certainly wouldnt describe this as a dreadful season. Disspointing yes! Relegation would be dreadful, finishing in the top half should be at the very bottom of our aspirations, but lets not get over zealous with our criticisms.

Shaun, who has said we should be "competing with the big boys"? Nobody as far as I can see.

You see, I encounter this problem regularly. When I try to make what I consider a valid and balanced argument as to some of David Moyes's and his team's failings, I get a comeback that takes things to a ridiculous extreme, which I can only assume is meant to detract from the real issue.

I don't expect us to compete with Chelsea or Manchester United, they have world elite bracket players that we can neither attract, nor afford. I DO expect us to compete toe-to-toe with the likes of Villa and Spurs though, there is no reason why we should not.

The 'finance' argument is only valid to a point and, unfortunately, some of those who are hyper-sensitive to any Moyes criticism again take things too far.

Moyes deserves absolute credit for his dealings in the transfer market, I don't think anyone can dispute that. The wheeling and dealing he has done that has ultimately allowed us the finance to bring a higher calibre of player to the club, yet retaining a low net spend is remarkable.

The thing is, you cannot hide everything behind that. You cannot hide the poor performance of class players behind that.

On the pitch when I see Arteta, Pienaar, Yakubu, Saha, Baines, Howard, Jagielka, Fellaini, Heitinga, Rodwell etc etc, I see a VERY talented bunch of players. I would suggest that batch alone I have quoted there would have a market value in the region of £110-130m.

Therefore, that is the level of performance I expect from the team. Yet, when defending David Moyes, all of a sudden the likes of Pienaar and Arteta are only worth £2m again!! You see the problem?You cannot have it all ways.
Either he has bought fabulous players at knockdown prices, and we get and should expect fabulous performances — which we know they are capable of — or in actual fact he has just been average in the market and these players aren't actually that good after all...

We need to decide which it is though and set our standards and expectations accordingly.

Personally, I think we have a great squad now, packed with footballers, and packed with ability. What I don't think we have currently is a manager who quite knows how to maximise the benefit of that footballing talent and who is still too obsessed with work-rate and 'percentages'.

One, maybe two, of that Sporting Lisbon side would get into our Everton team yet they embarrassed us in Lisbon, as I predicted they would. That wasn't down to injuries, it wasn't down to finance and it wasn't down to a lack of talent or ability.

It was down to us having a lack of that fundamental respect that you need to have for possession of the football when playing in Europe, and despite this being our (4th??) consecutive attempt at it, the same basic mistakes are being made over and over again, and that frustrates me.

NSNO doesn't have to mean we must be THE best. It should still mean we strive to be the very best we can be though. This season we haven't, and that hurts.

Neil, it is frustrating especially when you think of the good performances against the absolute abject ones; however the money thing IS the biggest issue we face. Otherwise Man City wouldn't be in a great position to finish fourth, it's not coincidence that they are now chasing the Champions League spot after having a shed load of cash thrown at them.

It all comes down to "top" players. We have good/average players in our side that can occassionaly look fantastic; whereas the other top teams have good/excellent players in their side that can consistently play well. That is where we fall down and that is why we all wonder which Everton will turn up on match day. Yes it's to do with poor management and tactics sometimes but it is also due to some of our players not hitting the top of their game consistently.

Hopefully this pre-season we will actually play someone of merit and get our team ready for August, not November and hopefully we will not have the horrific injury list and I hope against all hope we don't end up with another Lescott saga with Pienaar.

Hey Martin and Neil. 2 supporters saying the same thing different ways. In my few months in here, I have to say, there are a lot of supporters who express themselves in a negative way. With some, it appears they won't know how to express themselves when we're up there challenging for Silverware next season. They MUST be negative to be happy (in America, this is known as Boston Red Sox Syndrome).

Martin's right, look at all the teams EFC is distinctly better than, even just to watch. But we're a couple years past the "Hey, we're not one of the shit teams anymore. Isn't that great?" point. When we were a relegation-threatened side in the past, I'll wager DM wasn't getting ripped like this as he developed EFC and starting the club moving up the Table. But we're not that team anymore.

Without trying to speak for Neil and others here, I would be frustrated too seeing an obviously talented side alternating good and poor showings. Yes, we did well in EPL February, but the difference between us and the ManU's is no longer talent, it's getting after the 3 points over and over. Of course they don't win every game. But they're consistent in their determined play every game. ManU opponents have their hands full for 90 minutes. I'm frustrated too in the up and down play. The talents clearly there. So what's missing?

Here's my take, accepting first that we have talented players everywhere, including the bench, which I believe true. Also, I'm not picking out any particular EFC player, because I've only become a fan since Donovan came on and haven't seen enough to judge.

But I'm a lifetime sports fan in sports-mad America and winning teams have some things in common as do teams that are talented but the talent never adds up into a top team (very common, almost the norm, in the NBA).

1. Some players only try hard against the top teams. They tend to disappear against like or lesser-talented due to lack of some external (playing a top side) stimulant.

2. Some talented players simply aren't good under pressure. Not referring to this missed pass or that poor shot. Everyone does that. But some do NOT want the ball around them when performing well means the most.

Our performance game-in, game-out probably indicates that we have some guys who fall into 1 or 2 above. In both cases, DM is most important. The 1's have to be pushed to game after game consistency. The 2's have to go.

Again, ManU provided the perfect example yesterday against the RS as opposed to our showing. RS did all the same things they did against us. Ferguson sends out Park and Fletcher for their zeal, discipline, and courage. Good athletes, pretty good talent, nothing special.

But SAF signed and played them for the qualities I listed, which can't be taught. Gary Neville has them and played, and he's not even that good a player. Giggs, Scholes, Neville, Carrick, Rooney? Various talent levels with Rooney up top. But all of them have that inner fire that Ferguson likely keeps stoked but they came out of the womb with that fire lit.

That's the gap EFC needs to close to challenge consistently for 2011 Silverware. And without talking for anyone here but me, I think the main reason for all the frustrations (relentlessly) expressed.

Neil, whilst i won't accuse you of giving 'mindless criticism' because your arguments are sound and fair I don't see that you can object to being described as 'negative'.

I totally agree that at times Moyes's tactics have cost us games we should have done better in and certainly our cup exits this season have been hugely disappointing. But you can't ignore the good results and undoubted progression of our football this season. We out-played Arsenal at the Emirates as well as Chelsea and Man Utd at home. We have played at times some really quite breathtaking football.

Of course its upsetting when we are inconsistent and when this brand of football evaporates for hoofing but every team (possibly except Arsenal) will resort to hoofing when put under the right sort of intense pressure.

I choose to forgive the inconsistencies on account of an unsettled team and an evolving system of football. You choose to concentrate on the bad results and moments of inconsistency. Hence I am 'positive' and you are 'negative'.

Neither is right or wrong but both need to be balanced.

Sam, after 8 years of David Moyes though, can you not see the pattern? He has picked Tony Hibbert year after year, he continues to pick Phil Neville. Every centre half we have ever had smashes the ball from back to front and he continues to pick Tim Cahill who offers zero other than a target to smash long balls at.

From my seat in the Gwladys, I see, week-in, week-out, fullbacks hoisting the ball aimlessly forward from right in front of the dugout. Not once have I ever seen him chastise them. Quite the opposite in fact, he has been picked up several times on TV by the pitch-side mikes shouting "hit the frontman"!!

I can quote him from a few years back when Joseph Yobo tried to pass a ball into midfield which was intercepted and we ultimately conceded from; "I've told Joseph, a centre half's job is to get the ball as far away from goal as possible".

I'm sorry but the excuses don't wash any longer. With a group of really talented football players there is still no sound basis of a footballing side here. Yes we can do it in patches, how could we not with such talent?

The real acid test though is when the pressure is on. That pressure can be two-fold, pressure to win and physical pressure on the field. On both counts, we fold like a deck of cards.

Maybe it is Steve Round who needs to go, I don't know. What I know is that David Moyes's team does not have the full commitment you need to playing what I call 'proper' football that every successful team at the top level has.

Of course it is good to be able to 'mix it', but that is to mix it by choice... not to shit bricks every time an opposition player gets within 5 yards of you because you know the manager will give you a good bollocking if you try to pick a pass and lose possession!

Maybe he will change... maybe he won't. I certainly know what I see though, home and away, and it is nothing to do with perception.

Neil, I really don't see it the way you do. I don't doubt the sincerity of your argument at all. I just see things very, very differently.

Unlike you, I haven't been to every match in the last few years, but I reckon I see 1 in 3 live. Living down south, I also get to see a lot of Spurs, Arsenal, West Ham and Chelsea. Believe me, only Arsenal from the southern bunch have played football as flowing as Everton at their best this season. In recent weeks, the Baines-Pienaar-Arteta triangles have been just stunning to watch - better than anything I've seen at Goodison for a long, long time (rewatched the Hull game the other night - the movement is glorious).

Where I think we need to improve is in terms of consistency. We passed Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd off the park in the space of a month but played awfully against Liverpool in the middle of those games too.

But look around us in the league and I think it's fair to say we're playing better football than the vast majority. Villa are hoofball merchants (the big-man/big-man combo of Heskey and Carew is O'Neill's favoured partnership), Tottenham's midfield is still pedestrian despite the £200m they've spent on it (they'd love Pienaar and Arteta, that's for sure), and Man City - despite everything they've spent - haven't scored a decent team goal all season.

It's easy to shout for a better quality of football, but the truth is we're doing it better than most every week at the moment. We've been the form team in the Premier League since January and, on our day, play a brand of football most can only dream of.

.
Moyse told Jags several times to "shorten it up" on Saturday. He may be careful, but he ain't stupid, he knows the midfield he has assembled is at long last realising its potential and will have too much for most teams between now and the end of the season, do you really believe he wants to even things up with 50-50 long balls ?

In the original post Mick doesnt proclaim us world champions, he merely points out our style of play is much better to watch, he`s right , it is. Only somebody who HASNT watched Everton over the past few years would claim our football hasn't improved, these past 3-4 months

Firstly Saturday’s game; credit should be given (albeit grudging) for a great disciplined defensive display, it was like watching us circa 2004/05 when every game was 1-0, 0-0, and 0-1 and so on. Not pretty to watch but if you were a Bolton fan would you care? Did we care when we were in a similar position. Because they denied us space sometimes the only way to get a man open was to knock it long, and every team does that.

As for the accusation the DM team play the long ball, to my mind the juries still out, because like Neil Steel, I go to all the home games and I’ve watched an awful lot of long ball in DM’s reign. But in his defence, Moyes doesn’t set his team that way, and he certainly doesn’t long ball-type players. A perfect example of a long ball manager is Martin O’Neill, all of his teams have at the heart a big target man who can hold the ball, quick wingers and two hard working centre mids, and give him his due he puts out successful teams-but only to a point, because there’s no plan ‘B’ with O’Neill.

Moyes has never tried to replace Ferguson, even though at various times Heskey & Crouch were available and he has always tried to buy or in our case get a loan deal for classy footballing midfielders as opposed to work horses, and given the financial restraints that he’s been under, he’s done exceptionally well

I think I am with Martin O'Neill here. Fans play a few Football Manager games and think they can manage a football club.

It's Steve Round's fault. Hahahaha.

Shut down the site then Ben, shall we? After all, the manager is always right!? By that logic, surely Walter Smith should still be here. What do we know, we are obviously too stupid to understand the benefit of playing Steve Watson up front!

Seriously, that 'argument' is the lamest of the lame.

Sure, there are some fans who patently haven't a clue what they are on about. There are others who understand the game intricately, like me.

Understanding football isn't black magic and it's not all that complicated if you understand the basics.

The old 'why aren't you a manager then' argument is simply pathetic though. Look at all the managers in the Premier League, more or less every manager in football... even in the non-league. What is the connection? They have all had a career in the game.

Just because you have more physical footballing talent than somebody does not automatically give you a better understanding of the game though, does it? But the man on the street will never have that chance, because that's how football is. A closed shop.

Without a profile from playing football there are few who would ever have the opportunity to manage so please, be serious.

Ben, I woundn't say it's Steve Rounds fault but I would say he's second only to Moyes in the way we play. I have commented on another post that Moyes is tactically naive (eg Sporting) and he should have as a Number 2 someone who has strengh in the areas he is weak.

I repeat, we are getting better at passing the ball around and if a long ball doesn't come off, it's hoofball, rather than misplaced. As a player, I could put a ball on a sixpence but if the forward doesn't make the expected run, I look a cunt.

Neil, i do undoubtedly see your point and certainly have bemoaned the Moyes 'pattern' on several occasions.

Again though i would try and see the bright side and say that certainly for his first few years he has been concentrated purely on results. Given the paucity of options the need to keep it tight and snatch the 3 points when able to required a dour hoofball sort of football the majority of the time.

You do concede that we have moved on from this but a caterpillar doesn't become a butterfly overnight. We played some great football last season and have played some top teams off the park this season.

Players like Jags, Yobo and Neville and Hibbert are always going to put some punts in when under pressure...thats what they've been taught to do their whole football careers. But surely the inital post was right is saying that we have at times played some great stuff in recent times and if we carry on progressing as we have over the last 3 seasons or so then next season could be quite exciting.

@ Neil Steele
So basically Neil you are saying that you aren't a manager because you don't have a profile from playing the game. Is that not a bit lame after telling us how "determined and ambitious" you are a little earlier in this thread!

Neil, you say you are faced with the same problems everytime you try to present a fair and balanced argument. Ok so which part of "but for the majority at 0-0 it was garbage again, hoof after hoof. There is no commitment to playing football at this club, that much is obvious!" — is fair and balanced?

I do agree with a few of the points that you have made, but I think that you need to be reminded that you are not the only person who goes home and away, and I have been watching exactly the same football as you week-in, week-out. I do see signs of a vast improvement in our football of late which makes the above statement somewhat crass and rather baseless.

Brendan, I'm determined and ambitious for Everton to do well, not to waste my life chasing a hopeless dream! I am not going to be a Premier League manager and nor is anyone off of here or anyone you know, the point was simply to highlight his stupid it is putting these managers on an untouchable pedestal, as if they are in some way deeper thinkers when in reality they are only where they are because they were football PLAYERS.

Anyway, Shaun....if it came across that way, I apologise.

I was just making the point that when you sit through dirge displays each week they are harder to forget than if you only see the good stuff, maybe 7 in a row at Goodison.
I have seen some truly horrific performances this season, inexcusable ones that I really can't explain, and it is some of these that have ultimately cost us our season.

Maybe I will write an article on my feelings soon because I have more to say that we could cover in this one thread and I really don't think I can do my point justice.
I think people can get the gist of what I'm saying though.

We need to start playing football and controlling games on a regular basis given the players we have, not just turning up when the pressure is off or when the opposition go down to 10 men, like on Saturday.

I have catalogues full of examples of what I say. Take for example Chelsea and United at home...when did we start playing? When we went behind. Expected to lose, pressure completely off at 0-1... Everton start playing!!

Anfield, Liverpool in awful form, everyone fancies Everton.... pressure ON! Liverpool go down to 10-men... yet still control the game.
Everton are an embarrassment and fold like a deck of cards.
The list is endless, we are bottlers. Personally, I don't think it's mental. I feel that it's down to the fact that we are not well enough rehearsed at shifting the ball around at pace or under pressure, and when taken out of our comfort zone, or put into a position of a high profile game we are EXPECTED to win, we never fail to come up short.

But then I guess I'm just negative. Next year, next year will be the one!

Neil, I think it is mental. Just look at Man U they can play shite but always get over the line, the amount of times that they lose a game after going in front you can probably count on one hand in the last 3 years. And sorry to harp on about Bolton, but oh for some of that in Lisbon, a totally disciplined defensive performance, that would have had SL going backwards and try to nick a goal.

Its when we play poorly and win, and most importantly when we get our noses in front we stay there, will we progress to that next mythical level

I believe that Moyes has always wanted us to play better football, but not because he's some football purist. Simply, he wants us to compete at the top end - and that requires a certain amount of footballing ability in the side.

If he's such a purist then why Heitinga in midfield and Distin at the back? I'm a Moyes apologist (if I need a title) but I think this decision is holding us back. Less likely to lose, but not more likely to win. Bolton was nearly the game where it all came undone and he would have been open to criticism... personally I think he's getting away with it right now, based mainly on a fear of opening the team up to what Sporting did to us.

We have midfield options and I dream of Heitinga at CB... don't be afraid of taking the next step Davey.

Good debate...at least until the toffeweb equivalent of Godwin's Law appeared..."You're not the manager" - what a discussion stopper...

Anyway, I'm somewhere in between the two sides... It was obvious that our play was going to improve with the personnel we had coming back... and the balance that Donovan brought to the side...

But there's still a hell of a lot of poor management that runs contrary to the good stuff... wrong players, players out of position, players not getting played on merit, head scratching substitutions etc, etc...

Moyes may not be actively seeking to stifle the natural game of the current creative players... but he adds to it indirectly by some of his decision-making.

David Hallwood got it. ManU has developed the grit. They're the template. Let's do it here.

Our finish this year (regardless of place or position) setting the standard for the Fall.

CYOB