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EFC For Sale... To Us?
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With a general election within touching distance, we hear today that Labour are proposing to legislate in the national game.
Getting the FA organised might be a vote winner, but the proposal that jumps off the page is giving supporter groups what looks like a 'right to buy' if a club is up for sale.
I'm not suggesting we should get into party political debate here, but how would such a measure affect us? Bill says the club is always up for sale, but how could interested supporters act if this became a reality?
Keith Glazzard, Posted 29/03/2010 at 17:30:21
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The fans are the one thing that (should) remain constant at a football club. Players, managers, chairmen and even stadiums come and go, but the fans are the one stable thing.
I have always thought that fans should have more of a say in the running of a football club, like in Spain where the fans elect a president every few years to run the club.
However, how will they determine which fans are in the 'group'? I am a massive Evertonian that unfortunately lives 270 miles from Goodison with four children to raise and lives on my NHS wages, therefore I can't get to as many games as I would like. Does that make me less of an Evertonain than a millionaire that has a 'passing interest' in Everton but can get in the 'group' because he can buy a season ticket even if he doesn't attend all the games?
All the fans will need to be tightly regulated to have a say. However, it should cut out owners borrowing millions of pounds from banks as I don't believe true fans would be that stupid, as elected presidents wouldn't put there own money in. A club would be run on the money it generated itself.
I have always thought that fans should have more of a say in the running of a football club, like in Spain where the fans elect a president every few years to run the club.
However, how will they determine which fans are in the 'group'? I am a massive Evertonian that unfortunately lives 270 miles from Goodison with four children to raise and lives on my NHS wages, therefore I can't get to as many games as I would like. Does that make me less of an Evertonain than a millionaire that has a 'passing interest' in Everton but can get in the 'group' because he can buy a season ticket even if he doesn't attend all the games?
All the fans will need to be tightly regulated to have a say. However, it should cut out owners borrowing millions of pounds from banks as I don't believe true fans would be that stupid, as elected presidents wouldn't put there own money in. A club would be run on the money it generated itself.
Bill says we are for sale ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, can you not repost this on Thursday morning?
Seriously, one share one vote but you've got no chance.
Seriously, one share one vote but you've got no chance.
If the likes of Barcelona can do it — don't ask me how — then why not us? I'd love to be a part of it all.
It would be a fantastic idea...but it would have to be well thought out and tightly regulated...
However, one concern...would the most successful clubs be those with the biggest following, and therefore the biggest source of funding?
However, one concern...would the most successful clubs be those with the biggest following, and therefore the biggest source of funding?
I`m old enough to know that anything a Government says in its dieing days is purely for vote grabbing and has very little chance of ever being enacted.Be that as it may,God help the club that goes down this path for,as we know from this forum,supporters rarely agree about anything-witness DK-and chaos would reign in no time.
With this as the alternative,I`d be first in the queue to say `Long live Bill Kenwright!` Now there`s an admission!
With this as the alternative,I`d be first in the queue to say `Long live Bill Kenwright!` Now there`s an admission!
Derek, I'm trying to see the point of your post, could you explain please? And as for Labour losing the next election — too close to call, partly because there's no great enthusiasm for the Tories, but having said all that, WTF? This is a football site, not a political one.
Are we not already owned by fans? Albeit a handful of very rich ones (compared to me at least).
Tony, the Barcelona model is based on having over 100,000 'members'. I don't know the real number or quite what it entails, but they get to vote for their president, something which, believe it or not, can be bad for the club (certainly at Real Madrid where they have the same system) as it means there is short-termism, self-serving and electioneering by the guy who should be taking decisions in the best interests in the club.
More crucially they negotiate individual TV deals, so are absolutely loaded whatever happens.
Tony, the Barcelona model is based on having over 100,000 'members'. I don't know the real number or quite what it entails, but they get to vote for their president, something which, believe it or not, can be bad for the club (certainly at Real Madrid where they have the same system) as it means there is short-termism, self-serving and electioneering by the guy who should be taking decisions in the best interests in the club.
More crucially they negotiate individual TV deals, so are absolutely loaded whatever happens.
I'd stick a tenner in, where do I sign up?
There was already an Everton Supporters Trust being born last year by some members of TW but I've not heard anything from them in a while now.
Politics permeates everything David.
Can you just imagine the first AGM if Everton had thousands of owners. I think this idea looks fine on paper but is unworkable in reality. Someone will still have to make difficult decisions and therefore become the scapegoat.
The ONLY thing the Barcelona member can do is vote in the president elections. They have no power over any other decisons.
It would be like us voting in the general election and expecting to have a say on how OUR money is going to be spent. It'll never happen.
Bad idea all round I think.
It would be like us voting in the general election and expecting to have a say on how OUR money is going to be spent. It'll never happen.
Bad idea all round I think.
In principle it's a smart idea, but does anyone on this site actually know how the Barca business model works?
For example, the voters are all members of the Football Club, but what does that actually mean? As far as I know anyone can pay to become a member, but is that linked to shareholding, i.e. does a member with more shares have a greater say in who is appointed to run the club? Or are members only allowed one voting privilege regardless of shareholding?
For example, the voters are all members of the Football Club, but what does that actually mean? As far as I know anyone can pay to become a member, but is that linked to shareholding, i.e. does a member with more shares have a greater say in who is appointed to run the club? Or are members only allowed one voting privilege regardless of shareholding?
Andy, we could have it in The Royal Oak or Orrys/Players. After a few pints and fights we could solve all our problems and begin to tell each other how good a mate they are.
"How much for a 25% share then, Bill?"
"I've already told you I've been looking for investment 24/7 for the last 10 years, don't you listen!?!"
"I'm not telling you... I'm bored with that question!"
"I've already told you I've been looking for investment 24/7 for the last 10 years, don't you listen!?!"
"I'm not telling you... I'm bored with that question!"
IMO the best way to run a club, and indeed a league, is the Bundesliga model, where clubs have to meet strict financial criteria to be granted a licence. The clubs are all majority owned by fans so takeovers by potless chancers (see Galziers, H&G) heaping stupid debt on the clubs they "buy" is impossible.
As for Labour's idea, never trust anything a political party comes up with in the run-up to a General Election, as Brian said above.
Anyway, do we really want political interference in our game?
"Anyway, do we really want political interference in our game? "
Errrr.....
Errrr.....
It's just a pre-election gimmick as the government spin machine works 24/7 on clinging on to those ministerial salaries!
Jay Harris, you need to exorcise your demons man. The words "record" & "broken" spring to mind. You seem to eat, sleep & drink Kenwright. Try sticking to the subject at hand.
Labour's proposal is welcome. Big football clubs are pivotal elements in community infrastructure. The EPL doesn't give a shit as long as the TV money comes in. Clubs & fans are being raped & the whole existence of some clubs has been threatened.
The future of football and of football clubs rests where it's always rested, with fans. Not, repeat NOT, with billionaires. Fans make it happen. No fans, no spectacle. Fan ownership works fantastic in Germany. You can watch Bayern Munich at their amazing new arena for just over £10.
Football is eating it's own arse and it's fans who suffer because it's fans who care. Platini is trying to do something about it and I welcome Labour's acknowledgement that this is a national issue of great concern to many people. The current free for all is ridiculous. What's happened at Pompey is ridiculous. What's happened at L'pool & ManU (& Chelsea) is ridiculous.
Seems to me that in a quick analysis of which EPL clubs are better or worse off over the last 10 years, Everton FC is much nearer the top than bottom on debt, stability and risk. That may come as a painful truth to some (Hi Jay!) but the truth often does hurt.
Kenwright fine for now. Could be loads worse. For future I've always espoused the notion of a real "club" and fan ownership & inclusivity. If Labour can bang some sense into the dicks at the EPL then I'm all for it.
Labour's proposal is welcome. Big football clubs are pivotal elements in community infrastructure. The EPL doesn't give a shit as long as the TV money comes in. Clubs & fans are being raped & the whole existence of some clubs has been threatened.
The future of football and of football clubs rests where it's always rested, with fans. Not, repeat NOT, with billionaires. Fans make it happen. No fans, no spectacle. Fan ownership works fantastic in Germany. You can watch Bayern Munich at their amazing new arena for just over £10.
Football is eating it's own arse and it's fans who suffer because it's fans who care. Platini is trying to do something about it and I welcome Labour's acknowledgement that this is a national issue of great concern to many people. The current free for all is ridiculous. What's happened at Pompey is ridiculous. What's happened at L'pool & ManU (& Chelsea) is ridiculous.
Seems to me that in a quick analysis of which EPL clubs are better or worse off over the last 10 years, Everton FC is much nearer the top than bottom on debt, stability and risk. That may come as a painful truth to some (Hi Jay!) but the truth often does hurt.
Kenwright fine for now. Could be loads worse. For future I've always espoused the notion of a real "club" and fan ownership & inclusivity. If Labour can bang some sense into the dicks at the EPL then I'm all for it.
Firstly, thanks to TW for posting this. The danger of getting into a politico-slanging match was there of course, but its an issue of interest to us and I'd say the editors' confidence has been justified.
The 'Barcelona model' was bound to be invoked and I've done something I've been meaning to do for some time and found out a bit more about it. If you don't already know the Merchant Taylors, Crosby connection to the club's founding, it's a story worth looking up anyway.
So there are 156,366 'socis' (members) who pay about £150 pa for the privilege, and get a range of benefits, including qualification to buy a season ticket (the annual fee counts towards the cost).
But history is against us. The club was given financial stability early on by selling membership, and has gradually expanded the base for ground moves and the like. We can't undo our own history, so perhaps a change in the law is the only way we could get proper supporter participation. Will it ever happen? Dunno.
And beyond this, there's the problem of supporters being totally arsed about by TV scheduling. Now, there's an area any government is likely to stay well away from.
I got my information from Wiki and -
http://www.bwtorrents.com/showthread.php?t=135449
if you want to know a bit more.
The 'Barcelona model' was bound to be invoked and I've done something I've been meaning to do for some time and found out a bit more about it. If you don't already know the Merchant Taylors, Crosby connection to the club's founding, it's a story worth looking up anyway.
So there are 156,366 'socis' (members) who pay about £150 pa for the privilege, and get a range of benefits, including qualification to buy a season ticket (the annual fee counts towards the cost).
But history is against us. The club was given financial stability early on by selling membership, and has gradually expanded the base for ground moves and the like. We can't undo our own history, so perhaps a change in the law is the only way we could get proper supporter participation. Will it ever happen? Dunno.
And beyond this, there's the problem of supporters being totally arsed about by TV scheduling. Now, there's an area any government is likely to stay well away from.
I got my information from Wiki and -
http://www.bwtorrents.com/showthread.php?t=135449
if you want to know a bit more.
"Everton FC is much nearer the top than bottom on debt, stability and risk. That may come as a painful truth to some (Hi Jay!) but the truth often does hurt."
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I don't disagree with you post Alan... but I think this generalised comment is far from the truth... with Kenwright even admitting that we are running on empty. The reasons? Poor fiscal management... and absolutely no vision beyond banking hand-outs and flogging future revenue streams.
------------------
I don't disagree with you post Alan... but I think this generalised comment is far from the truth... with Kenwright even admitting that we are running on empty. The reasons? Poor fiscal management... and absolutely no vision beyond banking hand-outs and flogging future revenue streams.
It would certainly interest me.
Alan wrote an excellent piece along these lines about a year ago — doesn't time fly when your having fun?
My concern now, is the same as it was then. This isn't the most prosperous area in the UK; can we as Evertonians muster the necessary?
I`m fully aware that we have hundreds of thousands of fans around the globe, but how many of them would want to part with their hard earned for a share in a team they barely, if ever, get to see?
One thing I would like to know is: How many clubs have changed ownership making the fans the new owners, or have all the "Barcas" been founded and owned by the fans from the off?
Alan wrote an excellent piece along these lines about a year ago — doesn't time fly when your having fun?
My concern now, is the same as it was then. This isn't the most prosperous area in the UK; can we as Evertonians muster the necessary?
I`m fully aware that we have hundreds of thousands of fans around the globe, but how many of them would want to part with their hard earned for a share in a team they barely, if ever, get to see?
One thing I would like to know is: How many clubs have changed ownership making the fans the new owners, or have all the "Barcas" been founded and owned by the fans from the off?
Does anyone know of any examples to show fans buying out "owners" is actually do-able?
Our circumstances are not ideal, but I think the point being made is that a lot of Prem clubs are in an even worse position than us.
When I look at Pompey, my heart goes out to their fans... and if I can ever manage to supress my delight at Liverpool's and Man Utd`s plight, I may well voice my concern there too.
Ciaran, you can apply that to every premier league club. Getting handouts (private or banking) and selling future revenue is par for the course.
I dont think a fan buy out would be particularly helpful, as they still need leadership. If it was democratic, voting in a new leader and manager every other season as they haven't won a trophy isn't going to get us anywhere.
I dont think a fan buy out would be particularly helpful, as they still need leadership. If it was democratic, voting in a new leader and manager every other season as they haven't won a trophy isn't going to get us anywhere.
The comparisons of the Barcelona model are a bit off the mark. They have a 98,000 seater world famous stadium, this is what generates their revenue. Fan share ownership is not a healthy thing to do, as you simply dilute the holdings for a one off boost of cash.
Andy - we could have the AGM in the Winslow at about 1450 on the first day of the season. Might have a bit of a problem getting served mind you !
It's just the same as voting for government. You get several candidates who tell you what you want to hear in the run up to the election and you vote for one. Once they're in charge, they choose their cabinet / board of directors. They could all be clueless, but as voters/owners you get no say in this. You only choose a leader and trust his judgement. It's never worked in politics; can it work in football?
As for paying the members fee that could create a sum of money towards ground re-development, squad strengthening etc, but the whole situation provides more questions than answers. Questions worth asking though, in my opinion. It's an interesting option as billionaires seem thin on the ground as far as we are concerned.
As for paying the members fee that could create a sum of money towards ground re-development, squad strengthening etc, but the whole situation provides more questions than answers. Questions worth asking though, in my opinion. It's an interesting option as billionaires seem thin on the ground as far as we are concerned.
I see Rangers are looking at something similar. Here are the questions that come to my mind:
- Just how many fans do we have world wide?
- What would a supporter from, say, the far east have to gain?
- Who would actually organize this?
- Where would Bill Kenwright be in all this?
- How much would be needed from each supporter?
Fair enough Andy. There isn't a worked -out schme even to consider yet as far as I know. But, as I think a few here have demonstrated, the idea remains at least interesting.
Dan - I don't think anyone has tried to compare our situation to Barcelona's as it simply can't be done. But, if I understand the situation correctly, the fan share 'issue' is far from being one-off. The payment of the fee is annual and must bring in something like 23million euros a year, about £20m (but with the cost of living in Spain even now lower than here, an equivalent of something more like £30m p.a.).
Its a system born from historical circumstances quite unlike our own. But believe me, if it didn't work to make money, the Catalans would have scrapped it years ago.
On the subject, I was wondering if a bunch of benevolent ToffeeWebbers might organise a whip-round to send me to Barcelona to conduct a bit of 'in-depth' research? No? Oh well, Ryanair to Girona again it is.
Dan - I don't think anyone has tried to compare our situation to Barcelona's as it simply can't be done. But, if I understand the situation correctly, the fan share 'issue' is far from being one-off. The payment of the fee is annual and must bring in something like 23million euros a year, about £20m (but with the cost of living in Spain even now lower than here, an equivalent of something more like £30m p.a.).
Its a system born from historical circumstances quite unlike our own. But believe me, if it didn't work to make money, the Catalans would have scrapped it years ago.
On the subject, I was wondering if a bunch of benevolent ToffeeWebbers might organise a whip-round to send me to Barcelona to conduct a bit of 'in-depth' research? No? Oh well, Ryanair to Girona again it is.
If it was done as a membership of some sort that could be passed on to your kids, or even sold on, then this Far East resident would be interested for one.
Sort of like a golf club membership? You don't actually own the club but can have a say in election of the people who run it and get preferential match ticket allocations or some other benefits.
Sort of like a golf club membership? You don't actually own the club but can have a say in election of the people who run it and get preferential match ticket allocations or some other benefits.
David Hallwood, SHORT VERSION; the first 4 words of the post set the tone...with the general election, thats politics with a big P.
If the fans were to get a stake in the club, does that mean we can vote on having the Gwladys Street end converted back to terraces?
I think you know what the answer is here....
Nu Labour - new bollox. Desparation from a desparate party.
I think you know what the answer is here....
Nu Labour - new bollox. Desparation from a desparate party.
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1 Posted 30/03/2010 at 06:52:30
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So Thatcherism is the new last refuge of the scoundrel then.
But Thatcher indirectly via the Councils 'owned' the houses they sold off.
It, like Labour is a total none starter.